(emerson) I know this is difficult, but it's a romantic fantasy that people are going to "get" this up front. However, once you practice this sex with them, even if they are not, the magic happens. This is my preferred recommendation these days. Open mindedness happens when you are the example. Expecting to find someone already into this is like impossible. But someone receptive...well that's different.
I was watching a show from the UK called Fleabag, episode 2, and it actually addresses Karezza and lovemaking versus "fucking"...first time I've seen someone in a show get this right and address the issue. Point is, though, that you first meet someone, then you have sex, and you don't orgasm, and they get intrigued, and things evolve. That's how I see it. Anything else is doomed.
The worst way to explain it to a man is to say "it's like sex but you don't have an orgasm." Who wants that???? I also don't like the "affectionate gentle intercourse" angle, as that never seemed appealing when I was on the dopamine train. But if you say "you prolong sex, have lots of sexual intercourse, and delay your ejaculation for a long time and sometimes don't even bother ejaculating so you are always ready...and you get this amazing sensitivity and pleasure throughout your whole body" that can sell guys. Or at least the right guys.
(sender) It's a paradigm shift which implies that some people won't understand it just by explaining it using words, no matter how hard you try. Words typically only mean something when they describe an experience that's similar to one we've already had. Karezza is not like any experience I had had before, so I would not have understood it from words alone. In fact, the only reason I was even interested in trying Karezza was as a solution to the problem of how to continue to have sex with my wife while successfully rebooting from porn. Even then, I thought the idea of sex minus the orgasm was nuts, but I was determined to be rid of porn and wasn't excited about the prospect of 3 months without any sexual connection, so I was willing to give it a try. So although I did try it (and have not looked back since), my reasons were still largely selfish at that time. I expected Karezza to be this technique I could use to get by for a few months while I was recovering from PIED. Imagine my surprise when we discovered it was so much more than that!
It doesn't surprise me that he would resist the idea. Most guys are used to a steady diet of orgasms; with a partner, through self-stimulation, etc. So much so, that the idea of sex without orgasm can sound pretty uninspiring. But what I didn't realize was that before Karezza, my wife wasn't enjoying sex with me at all, she was just going along for the ride to keep the peace. I was too selfish at that time to notice, as long as I was "getting some". I had no idea what I was really missing in terms of having a real connection with her where she was relaxed, feeling safe and loved, and was fully available and engaged in the connection. What we have now is 100 x better than before. It's even better than when we were first dating!
I wish I had an easy answer for how to convince someone they should give Karezza a try. I think it is the single best sex / relationship "hack" out there, but sadly most people don't know about it, and they aren't hearing much about it from mainstream media sources like news, tv, etc.
Forget about trying to convince him it's a good idea and see if you can get him interested in trying it as an experiment. He's had it his way; would it be so hard for him to give you your way for 3 weeks? If he could let go of getting his way for a few weeks and experience Karezza (you would have to lead) for 3 weeks, then at least he would have some experience to connect to the words. Good luck!
NEWSFLASH: "Slow Sex" Film is a good way to introduce a partner to the concept of karezza-style sex
(Imnot - female) Last week I went out with a guy and I ended up talking to him about <em>Cupid's Poisoned Arrow</em> on the phone last night. He seemed smart and open-minded so I was comfortable talking about it. He was curious about it and ordered the book. The way I phrased it was that I tend to experiment with unconventional solutions, and this is the next experiment I want to do. That way I didn't have to sound like I was propositioning him, or delivering a premature ultimatum, especially since I'm not sure if there are serious feelings on either side.
If you write a profile on a dating site, it may help to say that you are coming out of an abusive relationship and you don't even want to think about sex for a while. But you may be interested in sex in the future, when the right guy comes along and you have had a chance to recover. That should discourage those who just want to have sex, without discouraging those who might actually be good long-term relationship material.
(Clarity) I have been on okcupid for a month or two and going on a lot of dates. I put a link to this site on my profile, partly to let potential dates know what they are in for, and partly to spread the word, even to people who aren't interested in me. I've gotten several messages from men just thanking me for letting them know about it. I've met several interesting men on there and am seeing a few of them. One in particular, though, is especially exciting to me right now. He is so intrigued by my sexual practice that he has stopped having orgasms. He's gotten through a week so far and seems really invested in giving this a real try. He's actually enjoying the build up of energy from quitting orgasm, not annoyed with it at all. And, like me, he is someone who loves sex and sensuality and savors the idea of hours and hours of slow, quiet breathing together.
One guy tried a Craigslist ad:
Have you come across the practice of Karezza? Karezza is a form of intercourse that emphasizes affection while staying far from the edge of orgasm. Climax is not the goal and ideally does not occur while making love for the man. [Actually, karezza's goal apply to both partners.]
Another Craigslist ad: Karezza (Montreal)
Corps : athletic Hauteur : 6'0" (182cm), age: 31
I am looking to explore a form of relationship called Karezza. Karezza is an ancient form of relationship union that is being revived by an author called Marnia Robinson in a book called Cupid's Poisoned Arrow. It's based on the idea that the typical way of sexual relationship leads to habituation between partners and inevitably leads to seperation due to our innate biological mating programs that steer us toward new partners. Karezza offers a different approach that focuses on bonding between lovers rather than overstimulation and orgasm.
Does anyone practice it? I am looking for a partner to explore with. A little about me,...
(Imnot - female) Last week I went out with a guy and I ended up talking to him about Cupid's Poisoned Arrow on the phone last night. He seemed smart and open-minded so I was comfortable talking about it. He was curious about it and ordered the book. The way I phrased it was that I tend to experiment with unconventional solutions, and this is the next experiment I want to do. That way I didn't have to sound like I was propositioning him, or delivering a premature ultimatum, especially since I'm not sure if there are serious feelings on either side. My perspective about men is somewhat different since I started this. My old reference points are less of a guide for me and I don't have such specific predictions about how things will play out (fall apart) according to the patterns I had noticed before. Before I felt like I had to find someone overwhelmingly compelling because whatever I felt for him at the beginning would be diminished as the relationship progressed. Now I feel like there are so many more options because I see how the initial chemistry is just a starting point. Things could develop and improve from there. Here's some of what I've learned:
- Communicate that karezza doesn't easily coexist with conventional sex, so he'll be motivated to find out what karezza entails.
- Have a book to loan him.
- Prolonging sexual tension is no fun when I'm not masturbating, it's uncomfortable. Making out soon is good because it soothes my tension, but the diverging point comes up pretty quickly and by that point I would want the guy to understand that I'm looking for a really different thing sexually.
- Richardson's book and Bass's book might be better for getting someone interested, while Marnia's book is better for showing why I made the decision. Focus on the positive aspects of karezza even though I based my decision on the negative aspects of conventional sex.
(Hanami99 - female) I would talk to my lover as we got close enough. I have to know him well. Then I will tell him that I need to trust that a man will hold me in his arms and gently make love to me with lots of kissing and eye contact. Only then can I give myself to him completely. My experience has been that a man is very moved by these words. If he can't maintain this kind of loving, I call it creative differences and move on.
You should speak from your own heart. I think when you can find your own words, this loving will be yours. You yourself have to be capable of letting someone love you only like this.
Men cut way back on the orgasms when they realize they're not tired and they can make love A LOT more.
(sender - male) Unfortunately, it might be [extremely] hard to find a guy who's already on this path. I've been in a men's group for almost 20 years; these are guys who work on themselves at a deep level, and I wasn't able to convince a single one of them to try it with their women. Some of them are aware of Taoist sexual practices (like Mantak Chia). Not even my testimonials regarding the amazing benefits in my own marriage was sufficient to persuade them. Not one of them is happy with their marriage, and yet they aren't willing to change this one simple thing for a few weeks just to see if it might in fact be the missing "secret sauce". Without exception, they all say, "no, it's not that, it's all these other things that are her fault...". Fascinating. That can only mean one thing: orgasm-attachment is strong.
I must admit, when I first read about Karezza (in the context of rebooting from porn addiction), I thought the whole idea was crazy. I only tried it because I wanted to recover from porn addiction and my ED symptoms caused by it without giving up sex with my wife. Karezza was the way to do that; otherwise, I might never have tried it. It's a significant paradigm shift, which means it can't be understood intellectually - you have to see it for yourself from experience. But it's really hard to persuade someone to try it without already having had the experience...so it's a chicken and egg problem.
Maybe instead of focusing so much on the man's orgasmic behavior, you could try to focus instead on the downstream effects you're looking to cultivate (e.g. feeling connected, loving, sustainable sexual energy, etc.) and only after you are both invested in the relationship, then you begin to explain about the Coolidge Effect, CPA, etc.
(strawberry field - Female) - [Writing about what felt like transformational sex with her boyfriend who has been inconsistent in his enthusiasm for karezza) What was different?
First of all I was in a completely self-assured mood, I was very sure about my leadership-qualities and therefore lead him without forcing or urging anything. In general it felt like it wasn´t my conscious will that lead us both - it was more like following my intuition. Something inside of me just knew what would be our next step and I let it guide him as well as me. I did not have much to do, I kept my focus at present, I relaxed and enjoyed. Like Osho says somewhere: The sex just happened.
Also my boyfriends appearance seemed very "real"...I focused on him, so I could be together with him for real and it worked. In general, everything seemed very real as if I was closer to reality...sometimes it was so close that it seemed to go into reverse and even felt unreal...very much reality seems unreal, well, that´s interesting, lol.
One moment I had to calm him down but I felt quite comfortable with telling him to slow down. I just told him I wanted to enjoy the slow sex a little longer and that I could feel him more intensive inside me when he goes slow. There was nothing hidden going on with that simple request, no fear of being rejected or demanding too much or anything, it was just the direct expression of a true wish. And because (I guess it´s because) it came directly from me to him without using any detours (manipulation, forcing etc) it must have been easy for him to meet my desire. So we had a wonderful time prolonged.
There were new ideas of sex-positions and how to be caressive appearing "out of nowhere" during intercourse, I guess because of the high level of intuition. But most impressive was that I felt so very self-assured...I wouldn´t say without doubts but there were not many of them. No stupid questions in my mind like "is it right this way or should I do it that way...what if he didn´t like it...what if it´s not enough karezza-style...blah..."
It´great to be without stupid questions during intercourse! The following intercourses were similar to this experience, so I was happy it wasn´t only a moment of joy but could have the meaning that a real transformation is going on. I am not expecting too much but will try to lead him as I did. I think I might have learned the difference between leading and forcing...maybe I have claimed this a few times before, but this time it´s not coming from my head but from my soul...I´ve experienced it directly through my body and didn´t just deduce it with my rationality. I guess experience is the only way to understand truly what good slow sex means but we discuss it anyway...which is good because one gets more and more a feel for the whole idea...so I share it.
Discussing sex is mostly not very helpful, it´s exhausting and often annoying - so if you have other opportunities you should use them. Let things work at another level. I think training intuition is helpful in that matter.
(Darryl) If I were to give fellow men advice around introducing karezza to a new lover, it would be this. First and foremost, do it for yourself. Make it your direction, your commitment to you. I'd do it by example. I can easily see how a woman could look at karezza as one more hare-brained male idea. Don't get me wrong, I would definitely and enthusiastically share with your new woman the virtues of non-orgasmic lovemaking. Give her the book and a link to this web site, and then drop it, unless she asks you for more. Believe me, your "doing by example" will mean way more to her than anything you say.
The way I handled not orgasming, was simply to say "stop" or "slow down" when I was too close to the edge. Sometimes I would just signal with my hands on her hips. The key is that your girl honors your wishes not to orgasm, and will stop when you need it. It's to her benefit, as you can go on much longer, are almost always ready for her, and your sexual sensitivity increase, all good things for the woman. Also, the more you don't orgasm the easier it gets not to.
Now if you just happen to meet a woman who gets right on board with you, then you'll know you're one lucky man. If not, let patience be your way. I strongly believe that karezza style lovemaking is naturally the feminine way, in the feminine flow, and she will respond. You just may need to enlist her support around the "stop" thing in the beginning. You could tell her it's something that's important to you and that her satisfaction is just as important as well, so, "Let's work together." If I had to do it all over again knowing what I know now, I'd do it basically the same way - with the addition of sharing the karezza information and sources to read. To be quite honest she'd follow me anyway.
Wouldn't it be great to start a new relationship DEMONSTRATING that your direction is sound? (advice to another guy) I remember when I first slept with the woman who would become my wife. We just cuddled together naked for at least two or three nights before we had intercourse. This was quite unusual for me, with previous girl friends, when the clothes came off we had sex. I think it really set the tone for our future together. I had actually forgotten we had done this together until a year ago, many years after we were engaging in karezza sex. You may want to try some bonding behavior like this the first time you're naked together. You could say something like, "Lets just hold each other. I want to really feel who you are this time." When you do engage sexually you could say, "I really like to go slow so I can drink in your feminine beauty." That will really get her attention. If she starts to speed it up, say,"Slow down I want to savor you," and then wrap you arms around her firmly.
Believe me, you can set the tone. Find me a woman who doesn't want to be savored and have her feminine beauty adored. Once she gets the sense of how you behave with her then you can introduce the concept of karezza. Actions always speak louder than words and a conversation about karezza can scare a potiential partner. Show her first with your body. It also shows her you're a man with a direction and purpose. Women love male clarity when it comes from the heart. Make a commitment to your journey and you will find a woman who will share your vision.
In my opinion your challenge is to be able to stay cool during lovemaking with a new woman when you haven't had any karezza practice with a partner. You may want to consider some solo sexual cultivation to get at least some feel of sexual arousal that doesn't lead to orgasm. It will help to retrain your brain a little bit, showing you that sexual arousal doesn't alway have to end in orgasm.
(To a woman) If I were a woman looking for a guy who would be open to non-orgasmic lovemaking I'd want two qualities. First, that he demonstrates, in some way, his capacity for direction in his life. Making the choice to give up orgasming, and then following through with it, is no easy task for a guy. He'll have to be determined to do it, and at its core it will have to be his decision for himself first. If he does it just for you it won't ring true. Second, he'll need to show he's open to feminine wisdom. Male direction is great, but without feminine wisdom a guy is only partially on track. Feminine wisdom brings depth and fullness to a guy's direction. A number of major things in our lives were instigated by my wife. The funny part was that I thought some of them were my idea's until she pointed that they were hers, and that I implemented them. How deflating!! Somehow I forgot that part.
If you explain karezza to your potential partner and he says, "Tell me more" you probably have a keeper. It says he's open to you and your feminine perspective. If he immediately contracts, and gives you an "I don't know" look or answer, then you may have an uphill battle on your hands.
From being a guy and knowing them pretty well, I can say that giving up orgasm is one tough sell for the male psyche. So you might want to ask him to think on it and give him some information to read, like the Wisdom page on this website. If, when you see him again, after he's had some time to chew on it, and he's still locked down about it, I would move on. Do you really want a guy who, right from the beginning, can't hold space for what's important to you? Look for the guy who says, "Tell me more." He's your man. You mention something about a guy who may practice karezza with you but isn't a good fit, and wondering how it might end. I think it would end because it wasn't a good fit. I don't believe karezza would save a relationship that's not a good match but I do believe karezza can bring harmony to one that is solid but floundering.
(Telepathy) I mention karezza in my OKCupid profile. And I am a man. As someone interested in karezza I would be overjoyed to find another person interested in it. Karezza obviously shows a high level of seriousness in a person. That is what I am seeking, and the only thing I will accept. If someone is too immature to speak about (or contemplate) non-orgasmic sex they are probably not a suitable partner for me. Isn't it strange that we supposedly live in a sexually liberated culture, but we feel we can't even talk about sex openly with the person we will be having it with beforehand?
(lucky) Speaking from my experience, my partner brought up karezza very early on when I initially broached the topic of sexuality. I had never heard of it before, but I was very intrigued by the practice and the fact that he had a different view on sex made him all the more interesting to me.
(Rachel) (Advice to forum member) I understand how hard it is for your lover to understand why you don't want to have orgasmic sex anymore. Men can get very attached to seeing their women orgasm, as can women when it comes to a man's ejaculation. However, in the end, it is *your* body, and you have the final word as to what you do with it. No one can make you have an orgasm. (I know it *feels* like someone can make you have one, but in reality, it's your own mind that leads you to it) So if you want to try making love without it, then that is entirely up to you. It's hard mental work if someone insists on trying to make you have one--so you might need to have a discussion about that. But on the other hand, it's also *his* body, and if he wishes to have an orgasm, that is his prerogative. I don't see karezza as an "all or nothing" situation.
The beauty of karezza is the *way* you make love. It allows you to open up to him sexually as never before. As you continue to get greater and greater satisfaction through lovemaking, the more you will want to do it. Where it becomes a partnership is when you are able to trust him enough to open up to him fully (physically and through your heart), and he is trustworthy enough to go slow and not hurt you by bruising your cervix. Once he has been invited into your deepest space, he won't want to have the door closed on him again. The tricky part is finding out whether he would like to try to make love this way. Once he has given it an extended try, I think he will really start to love it (but no guarantees! I don't think everyone is at a point where they are ready for it). In my own relationship, I would rather not have orgasms. I get sad and a bit off-kilter when I have them.
But sometimes, after many hours and days of making slow love, my beloved consciously decides to have one at the end of our time together. That his choice. Because he doesn't seem to suffer after-effects, it's something he might do occasionally. (I have yet to ever feel that he withdraws from me emotionally, etc., but perhaps that is because we have spent so much time in closeness of our souls and hearts.) His orgasm does not negate the beauty of our lovemaking or our time together! I was also in a marriage for 22 years~~and one of the first things I promised myself after my divorce is that I would never again try to be someone I'm not just to please another person. So if that means I want to be an orgasm-shunning woman, then so be it! And if my lover decides he'd rather be with someone to whom he can give orgasms, then so be it, too! But I think he's pretty much forgotten about the whole "make her cum" thing, lol, thank goodness!
(Marnia) My thought, for what it's worth, is that there's no "right" way. Trust your intuition. Some people click with the science; some with the ancient wisdom; some with your own story, etc. No one clicks with having the information shoved down their throats. If people are meant to hear this, they often give you an opening that makes it clear what approach would work best. For example, they may say they are discouraged about relationships. Well...that's your cue to tune up about why you're now feeling more optimistic, and that you're looking forward to testing this "crazy theory" for yourself someday. Or they may say something about why humans can't be monogamous...and you share about the Coolidge Effect and bonding behaviors, etc. Or they may mention tantra, and you talk about some of the other traditions that have made similar discoveries. Or they may mention past relationship troubles, and you could ask if they ever noticed things started going of course after the "honeymoon stage" --even if they had a good physical relationship. Or if they started to drive each other crazy. If they say "yes," you can mention that you just started reading a good book about that and it talks about the biology of relationships. If they're curious, lend them the book. One person suggested testing how open a perspective partner might be by talking about yoga, chi energy, chinese medicine, etc. and gauging the reaction. A male friend says he has taught karezza to a new lover with his body alone:
When I engage I keep it slow. I make sure I don't orgasm. If she wants to, that's her business, I don't preach. Because I've been being non-orgasmic for a long time, it's not difficult to manage my own arousal, even with someone who focuses on stimulation and orgasm. It's not that hard to keep a partner in the middle zone when you know what you're doing. I would say I put out an energy of, "I'm not going where you're going, but if you like, you're more than welcome to come over here where I am." If I need to slow someone down, I'll do it with a word or two, or with my body. At some point you see something dawning on the other person. A sort of, "Hey, what’s going on here? This is different, and mmm...kind of nice. I think I like this." It’s such a sweet way to introduce karezza to someone. You'd be surprised how positive the response usually is. I look at it as a kind of gift I'm giving. Normally a person would have to be introduced to the concept somewhere, wrap their mind around it, and then stumble along with their partner as they try to get the hang of it through trial and error. Because of my experience, my partner gets to jump into the middle of the experience and get a real taste of what it's all about. I love the sharing that happens. I remember a lovely friend saying, "You can go now" (meaning, "have your orgasm"), after engaging for quite some time, definitely longer than she was used to. I said, " I don't do that." You could see the wheels spinning in her head as she digested the experience. The next time she was all over it, wanting more, and ended up getting so behind the idea that she had a conversation with her teenage son telling him this was the way to make love when he began being sexual. You would think that someone practicing karezza would get pulled into the hot conventional style sex by the other person but it’s by far the other way around. If you're confident, they can feel you're on to something, and they usually lean into it. Now, of course, if they're really going to move into non-orgasmic lovemaking they will still have to go through the rewiring process but they have a tangible personal experience to relate to
[Marnia to a man wondering about discussing it with a prospective partner]The problem of "enlightening" a partner is a tricky one, especially today because hopping into bed for sex seems such an Obviously Right Idea. If she reads English, you could tell her about the bizarre book you read by an American woman and ask her what she thinks of it...just as a way of gauging her response. Who knows? She may like the idea. And if she hates it, then that will be useful information, too. I do not recommend trying to explain the ideas to her yourself. These ideas don't make sense to ANYone at their first hearing. There's a lot of natural resistance, and it gets projected onto the person talking about them. Better she project it onto me than you! Also, a book takes a slower, more redundant (at least in the case of my book) approach, so people have time to allow their resistance to arise and have their questions addressed.
When we got together, my husband said something that I think you guys can use in this situation. It was something like, "I don't mind taking a slow approach because I've noticed that when I rushed my relationships (sexually speaking), they tended to be short and end badly. I hope this relationship will last." Those weren't his exact words, but those were the key concepts. The challenge from the woman's perspective is that if you aren't trying to jump on her, she doubts her attractiveness. By letting her know you hope the relationship will bloom, she can relax because she knows you find her attractive. That said, women who are hooked on vibrators or porn, are gonna be like guys hooked on porn/masturbation...very needy and insistent and very unable to think in terms of the big picture. So if she's not ready, don't blame yourself!
(Anonymous woman) [She decided to move to sex without orgasm, but her partner wasn't on board]
Thought I'd share our most recent experience... As usual, I've been "avoiding" (enjoying the lack of!) orgasm, but B has not (at least not entirely- he "indulges" about once a week). Since we got together, I noticed he was struggling with drinking more and he started to smoke again (he had quit for a full year). I decided to let him bring me to climax last week - to observe the results myself. Wow, was I amazed at the extreme emotional upheaval that followed within a few days! The first day I started to feel a bit "distant" and detached from him. Within three days I was a raging bitch, and moved back into my own place for two nights! I honestly thought and felt it was the end for us! Thank goodness, I began to calm down, and reached for "the book" (your book, of course, no bibles ) I've read parts of it at least two or three times now. I started with the science, then backtracked to the intro and stories. It really took repeated readings and my own experience to fully connect with the consequences of fertilization sex. You are right - achieving a good experience with "karezza" and then comparing that again with "traditional" sex provides the contrast needed to really "get" it! Lucky for me, B is a patient, forgiving, and understanding guy! He's rereading the book as well, and is in on it 100 percent with me now ( I guess one bad experience with "bitchy" me is enough to turn any man!!) He's already calmer, not smoking, and not drinking. I'm very hopeful that he will be able to become a light social drinker eventually, like I am, so we can enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, etc. Honestly - this stuff is so critical to relationship health, personal health, and perhaps even the future of our planet! Anything I can do to help get this into other people's hands I will do!
(Louie) The men of the world have a very big hang-up when it comes to sex. Performance anxiety is rampant. If the relationship has barely started and you are already talking about wanting to do sex a particular way then you might be giving the impression that you will be very hard to please in bed. I could see that sending many men scurrying away. The better approach might be wait until the subject comes up and then just state that you like your love making to be slow and gentle, and you are not at all concerned about getting orgasms. You want it to be max relax. That would have the opposite effect of reducing any performance anxiety.
(enlightenment girl) Putting karezza out there with someone out of the blue can seem overwhelming and demanding. Just getting to the stage of discussing "when do we do it" can then lead to "how to do it."
(clarity) Last night I spent the evening with an old lover who I hadn't seen in many months. Once I had his full attention I told him I had given up orgasms. His response? "So you're not going to have sex with me tonight." Ha. It was really good to get that off the table, because it really made the rest of the evening much warmer. We were not hanging out because we wanted to use each other for sex, at least not anymore. That strange guardedness dropped away. I thought it was interesting that when I told him "look, I was using you so that I could have orgasms. There were reasons I chose you instead of someone else, but, still, that was a huge motivation" he seemed completely nonplussed. "Yeah, so?" I told him I want to take that out of it and that made a lot of sense to him. He could easily accept that I felt I had an unhealthy, problematic response to orgasm and that it was interfering with my mental health, my love life and my friendships. I told him I really related to the idea of an addict who needed to make amends, but he said he didn't feel any resentment or hurt about the way I had treated him.
A cool thing that happened was we went for a walk down to this wonderful spot right behind his house where we could sit on a stone wall and look into the creek. We never did that when we were so busy in bed. It felt very young and innocent and romantic. He kept confusing "sex" and "orgasm" as we talked, and I kept having to reseparate them. He asked me some clarifying questions "So, you want to have sex, but not with orgasms?" "Right." "Have you ever done that before?" "Not in a long, long time." "I've done that a lot. That's the best kind of sex." "Right, yes." And (ding! ding! ding!) I realized that both of us had been thinking in the backs of our heads that the orgasmic fucking was a phase we needed to get past so we could get to the good stuff eventually. Pretty amazing realization, and really the insight of the evening for me. Of everything I told him, the thing that really seemed to make the most sense to him was the idea of the mating program and the bonding program. I explained the concept and he practically shouted "God! That's so true!" He has struggled with addictions enough and learned enough about brain chemistry that when I made a dopamine vs oxytocin distinction he was right on board immediately.
So we had a truly epic hug, the kind of hug I always wish a hug could be. Snuggly and endless, with sighing and giggling and gentle squeezes and lots and lots of stillness. A few sweet kisses, some more hugs, and good night. We are so far off the script now neither of us seemed to really know our lines anymore. But that feels like freedom. I don't want to leave this with the impression that I converted him or that we are on the same page at this point. Our conversation was punctuated by his adamant refusal to ever consider giving up orgasm himself. I presented the whole thing as a personal decision on my part and didn't try to suggest he alter his behavior in any way. Turns out he only masturbates every week or two anyway when he doesn't have a lover. I could see the wheels spinning though and I did suggest that he reconsider some of his previous relationships in this light. When we were seeing each other, he told me a lot about his relationship woes. He did say "well, sex was always the sticking point. It's always caused the most arguments, but usually because they DIDN'T want to have sex and I was so frustrated."
There was a particularly poignant moment as he was pondering his previous relationships and then came back to the reality that I wasn't going to have orgasmic sex with him and he looked deflated and said "I just never can win." Awww. I really felt bad for him in that moment. Here's this woman he wanted for years, reconnecting, having a wonderful, romantic evening and she's given up orgasm altogether? What the hell? Poor guy. And (second ex lover to do this) he teased me that there was no way that I could possibly ever have sex without having orgasms anyway. His philosophy on the whole thing, which I very much appreciate, was "But I'm still alive!!!" By which he meant that life is always a struggle, we always feel pulled along by our dopamine and that you can't get off the ride until you die. And a wild ride it is. Feeling insatiable is feeling alive, because if you were satisfied, you might as well be done with it all. When I said I felt totally crazy when we were dating and that my perception of reality was altered, he said "that's part of the fun!" He said only boring people get bored and that love and sex without orgasm sounded boring to him.
I told him I wanted to live the oxytocin propelled life instead of the dopamine life for a while and see what I think. His attempts to negotiate out of this deadlock were pretty hilarious. "Ok, so what about couldn't you have that relationship you want with all the hours of tantric energy exchange and everything and then just every few months or so just go at it and do some serious fucking?" I laughed. "I think you probably just described my future. I don't know. I'm new to this, it's really an experiment at this point. We'll see." So yeah. It was great to talk to someone who was neither a fellow convert nor completely dismissive. He really engaged the ideas and gave me fresh insight. I had been looking forward to healing our friendship for a while, but I'm glad I didn't see him until now. With my new perspective, we were able to really connect in a more profound way. So, even though we kept our clothes on this time, I left his house feeling a stronger, deeper, more lucid and honest affection for him than I ever did when we were fucking. All in all, a lovely evening.
(Suggestion by a man to a woman who wants her boyfriend to try karezza) I would say "I'm not going to come for awhile. I'd like to explore my sexual nature without having an orgasm." And you proceed from that point of view. Slow him down if you feel he is getting to intense for you applying clitoral stimulation or whatever that is putting you over the edge, and abstain from having him give you oral, and you can proceed to explore this.
I know it sounds weird. But really, it will be much easier for him to jump aboard on his own, once you are doing your thing. A man will take a woman's lead here after a bit, it won't take much. Just to try things out for a few weeks.
- This guy tries to explain to men...
(westgate - male) Bonding behaviours and non-orgasmic sex discussions during dating I have brought this up with a couple of girls who i felt were interested in me, but had only just met me. heh heh. Great way to come across as weird. Most people find these topics awkward and weird when some potential date/fling/prospect brings it up soon after getting going. I think you have to establish an emotional bank balance with them first (get connected at least a little with other topics). It's funny how you are experienced as 'weird' to talk about this stuff straight away, but I'm sure if we played out the old mating game of attraction, we would be able to have sex far sooner than we'd be comfortable talking about it. That insistent old mating brain... On the other hand, I brought these ideas up with girls I had known for some time at work. The response here was very good. I find many people are fascinated by these ideas. I also find it's a great way to sort out who has depth of feeling and sensitivity and who is shallower. SUMMARY: Karezza is a great topic for conversation, provided someone is comfortable with you already.
(tattvamasi - male) So I have profiles on a few different internet personals sites. One of those sites is Okcupid. It's kind of a social network and online dating site rolled into one- there are some people on there looking for friends, while others are looking for more intimate connections. So there are various sections users can fill out on their profiles, one of which is "Most private thing I'm willing to admit." Here's what mine says: "I don't believe in orgasm. Shocking, I know! This realization came after much research that ended up dovetailing very nicely with things my own intuition has told me for quite some time. Confused? Angered? Intrigued? I'm happy to discuss..." I was editing my profile like a week ago and decided to just lay that out there to see what happened. To my pleasant surprise, I'm piquing the curiosity of many women. The general reaction is kind of like, "A man... a person with a penis... saying he doesn't believe in orgasm?!?!? Wow, I gotta find out what this is all about!" I actually exchanged a couple of really great e-mails with a woman recently. She was curious about why I choose not to orgasm, so I gave her a very rough outline (I probably didn't do it justice!) of the ideas in Marnia's book. Here's what she said in response: "It makes sense. I often think that the whole act can be boring and a chore if the goal is ultimately an orgasm and not to be close to one another. Its hard to find a man these days who has a deeper understanding on sex, and well, relationships in general. I think its partly that I keep meeting boring jerky men who have no desire for depth or a purpose driven life. Im going to check that book out too. Thanks :)" Then, a couple messages later she said: "It really does sound like an amazing experience. I grew up in a very spiritual household and have these deep engrained beliefs that sex is spirtual and not just physical satisfaction. But in my life so far have not had that experience. I imagine you have to be with a partner you love and care for. it sounds like there is such an intimacy to it. A lot of people would probably shy away from that kind of deep human connection." We ended up meeting for coffee the other day, and it was nothing short of magical. The conversation rolled right along for an hour and a half before she ended up having to go back to work. It almost seemed that we finished each other's sentences at times. There were plenty of synchronicities throughout the conversation as well. It was almost like the Universe was like, "See! Don't be shy about your beliefs! Shout it from the rooftops and you'll attract amazing people into your life!" There were things that she was saying and ideas she was expressing that I have been reading about in a book (The book is called "Anastasia"- book I of the Ringing Cedar series... check it out!) over the past couple of days. These were some pretty unconventional ideas, so the fact that she was talking about them... it was like she was reading my thoughts! We talked about how children are Art, the ultimate expression of creation... and right as we were talking about this, a woman pushing a stroller stopped right in front of our table. We looked down at this beautiful baby inside, then looked at each other in an amused kind of awe. What a great date it was. We have plans to go out again soon, and I'm greatly looking forward to it. So I guess what I'm trying to express, wonderful karezza community, is don't be shy about this amazing concept. I simply put it out there with a kind of "take it or leave it" mentality. Some women message me and are very curious about it, others don't mention it. It seems to be a nice balance between being completely quiet about karezza and trying to push it on people. If you let them meet you halfway, then the door to dialogue is open.
(intriqued - male) I met her through a mutual friend a few weeks ago. After a great evening together she asked to come back to my place. It was really awkward timing. I had just said my good byes to my girlfriend (a fantastic relationship (love on both sides, but riddled and ultimately ruined by my ED issues) a few days before and had just started my reboot (day 3). I said she could, but I explained that I couldn't do anything that night. I wasn't really presuming anything but just wanted to be honest and lay my cards on the table. So we spent the night caressing, feeling, touching, kissing, laughing, talking, and getting to know each other's bodies. It must of gone on for hours. Our clothes stayed on (underwear) throughout. I guess this was a non-conscious attempt at Karezza. Knowing that sex was off the cards made things really relaxed. I am not sure I would of suggested this kind of 'sex' myself, had it not been for my reboot, but I actually got a lot out of the no-O evening together. Later that night she caught me off guard by telling me she hadn't had sex for 6 months. She said she came to the realisation that casual sex wasn't improving her life and so decided to make the rule to only have sex with someone she had true feelings for. Like myself she was trying to change her relationship towards sex. I should give her a copy of Cupid's Poisoned Arrow. The next time we met (12 days into reboot) we had a great day together (museums, gigs, walking), and again ended up in bed together. Again we took things slowly. She said she felt odd, and at one point left the room saying she had to have a moment to herself to think things through. She apologised when she came back in. I told her not to worry. She said she wasn't going to have sex with me that night; fine by me We spent a lot of time together (kissing, touching, cuddling) before 'escalating'. I completely lost track of time. I really couldn't tell you if it was 30 minutes or 2 hours. I seem to have started enjoying these more natural encounters. Seeing where things go rather than trying to force things. It's not my normal language but it felt a little spiritual. Revelling in another's touch, moving, anticipating, sensing each other. Relaxed and getting turned on without any sense of performing.
(Another male) After limited success with different types of dating, I've just gotten more and more direct over time. Finally, I got to the point of being completely direct on an online advert, I wrote something like, "If the theory is that you can find whatever you're looking for online, I'm looking for a friend to spend time with; kiss, touch, give physical affection to. Nothing skeevy. I'm normal and sane. Oxytocin is good for you." Now I just have to figure out a system of sorting through all the women who replied.
(recreatingone) I just met someone in the fall of last year and it's still fresh how I introduced it to her. I was doing internet dating and i posted something about karezza on the site and in my profile. Once we met and started chatting back and forth it became a question of curiosity. I was able to explain that i was looking for a partner who was open to karezza because i have learned some interesting things. She took the bait and and asked me "like what?" i went to tell her that i have learned that at least some people can be prone to changes in the brain after orgasm that lead to feelings of depletion, neediness and things that would cause fighting amongst partners. She was fascinated by this and now I know why. From there we have had episodes of being successful with Karezza and lately not so much. When things were being held to the karezza way of sexual interaction there was a lot more harmony in our relationship. We found that penetration from me being on my side and her on her back was more intimate and less sexually dominating or stimulating. From there if we kept to that all things were good. The problem i think we got into is that we learned how to "edge" and then it became like an experiment to try different positions and see if we could "edge" but not orgasm. I can tell you now from experiences that this game of too much edging gets us in trouble and one of us winds up orgasming. So we are now in a reboot and trying to save ourselves because too much edging and leads to orgasm and then right back to the cycle again. Now there have been times when I spontaneously orgasmed by just floating inside of her and not trying an vigorous movements and then we did not seem to have the "fallout". I guess the love hormones saved us. So if you are having "casual sex" with a partner that you may not be with again, then first of all, it won't matter if she thinks you're weird right? Second, if you think the two of you will be back making love again, then why not start out on the right foot and tell her something interesting your exploring and see if she takes the bait.
(sood) Http://www.reuniting.info/blogs/curiousfellow/cuddle-sutra The drawings are simple but, I think, sexy: and that's with clothes on. If your bloke doesn't seem too keen on a prolonged diet of either the Exchanges or cuddling, it seems to me, if you're willing, you could take turns to make love each other's way. He can't force you to have an orgasm if you'd rather not, and you can't force him not to have one if he wants to; but you could both agree to make love slowly, one day, in the way you want, and faster, the next time, as he prefers.
We found knowing we would do what we most wanted, next time, made doing now, what we wanted less, much easier. It also enabled suprising, and effortless, changes to take place in what we prioritised. Scheduled lovemaking was great fun, and took all the pressure off.