"Only in the beginning will it be difficult; soon it will become very easy. When there are two persons growing together, many times gaps will arise because people cannot keep pace with each other; everybody has his own speed, everybody has his own unique growth pattern. But if you love, you can wait a little till the other arrives, and then, hand in hand, you can move further."
(sender) Often, as the responsibilities of the day end and we have some time to connect, my wife and I are aware of our minds intruding...thoughts and stresses from the work day, concerns about something that has to get done, etc. So we try to do things that help us to relax, enter our bodies and let it all go: eat something very tasty together, a little yoga, gentle rubbing of feet, neck, back, use the hot tub, sit by the fire and talk. Then we can let go of all that mental noise and use our brains as purely sensory devices: enjoying the feeling of all the touches, looking into each other's eyes, hearing the little sounds of pleasure. It's a subtle shift, but it's everything.
[his advice to a husband] Your expectations are the problem. In this realm, expectations are the chicken and the egg. Get rid of them, and everything just opens up, almost like magic. She will come to you because she wants to, not because you expect her to. But you have to (really and truly) release all expectations first. You can't fake that - they are felt no matter how much you try to hide them.
At first, it didn't seem fair to me that the woman should be totally in control of the sexual experience: when it happens, how often, how good it is, etc. But then I realized that it is totally fair and it makes sense: she is the one being penetrated - for that to work, and for the experience to be enjoyable for both of us, she must be enjoying it; she must feel safe, be relaxed, open, and giving herself to me willingly and taking pleasure in it for herself. Nothing I do can make her enter that space. In fact, she can't even make herself go there through force of will if she doesn't want to.
To your question: "How does a angry man find a way to Bonding Behaviors?", I suggest the following:
1. What unconscious expectations does your touch communicate? Are you expecting sex? Are you expecting her to react instantly, and in a particular way? Own that these are your expectations and that having them in the first place (not her unwillingness to fulfil them) is the cause of your disappointment and anger. Do whatever you have to in order to release your expectations, then the disappointment and anger will dissipate on their own. Some suggestions: meditate, journal, work on yourself with a therapist or in a group; whatever it takes for you to process and move past the expectations.
2. Read this book: http://www.maleinitiative.com/six-initiatives/. It's available free online, or you can order a copy. It's a short read, but it's powerful stuff. It really helped me to put my finger on a number of long-held misconceptions I had about sex, relationships, women, and my role in the whole thing. Once you have read it, ask Izzy if she would be willing to read it together with you. My wife credits our co-reading this book as the opening to our Karezza journey together. Before reading this, she had sex with me infrequently, out of a sense of obligation, and didn't enjoy it - in fact, she approached it with a sense of dread and did it to "get me off her back" (her words).
3. Go here: http://janetmcgeever.com/ and get the pdf file, "Why women close down". It's very short, but insightful. One of the big takeaways for me was to realize that women can go into a kind of "lockdown mode" in which their bodies simply reject sexual advances - it happens at a body level and she can't override it mentally even if she wants to.
(more from sender) I also had struggled with a low-sex marriage. I wasn't getting much sex, maybe twice a month on average. For one thing, looking back, I notice that I used to have all sorts of unconscious thoughts about how to manipulate her into having sex with me. How I could arrange the situation so she didn't have any excuse to say no. Trying to discourage her from over-exerting herself with yard-work so she's not too tired. Helping out with things around the house, not because I wanted to be helpful, but because I wanted to leave less stuff for her to occupy herself with as an excuse to avoid sex. Probing to see how she is feeling (will she be ready for sex tonight?). When I wasn't getting sex, I would get pouty and sullen. Then, when we finally did have sex, it was the typical, porn-addict, mechanical, she's-a-prop-in-my-porn-fantasy sex. She didn't feel seen, appreciated or loved for who she is. She didn't enjoy it at all; in fact (I know know because she told me) she dreaded it and would do it as little as possible just to keep the peace. At the time, I didn't know any better, but now that I have distance from that and clarity about it, I can't understand how she would have enjoyed it. It's an ugly view of myself that I am glad to have "grown out of".
Karezza has changed all of that for us. Now she is enjoying the sex. A lot. For us, that's probably The Key to solving the frequency issue because now, it's not that she's accommodating me, it's that she wants and looks forward to the sex, and actively participates in planning for it. Sometimes, all we can manage is once in a week. We have a kid, both work, and can be busy and tired. But sometimes lately, we are doing it as much as 3x / week, which is wonderful and we both love that. We don't really understand how it can get any better, but somehow it does.
I agree, and can appreciate that each couple has their own sex-rubik's-cube to solve. In our case, however we got there, the frequency went up when she started genuinely enjoying it. She often mentions the word trust, so I think for her, it was not a quick process because she gradually had to gain trust that I had truly become different; that I was no longer the same porn-addicted, insatiable, robotic, manipulative, childish sex addict who just wanted to use her body to satisfy an urge. For her to really trust that took quite some time.
(sood) We never used to talk about sex, and then when we did, we talked about it far too much. Things got antagonistic, and we were so caught up in tying to please each other, we didn't properly please ourselves. Now, I'm trying to lead by example, and - rather than explain beforehand (even, or especially, to myself) how I would like things to be - accept whatever unfurls, and not get upset if that isn't what I want. So long as I stay firm (firm in my resolve, that is) harmony usually prevails.
(verygary) when I told Linda that I didn't want to concentrate on having (or giving) an orgasm, that I just wanted to go for "soft love", she heaved a sigh and agreed, obviously reluctantly.
Good girl, that she is, though, she played along for a couple of months. I went ahead and gave her one when she showed wanting one -- could not voice her preference -- and enjoyed 'em. Then in the middle of summer, she confided that she was afraid that I might be cutting her off when I had announced my intentions. (She won't read CPA. It isn't on Audiobooks.) I have read sketches to her: the spiritual sections between chapters.
I reassured her that as long as she wanted me to tickle her clitoris, I would do it, but that I would not want her to refrain from yelping when it happened. So that's how it has been for the past six months. Now, thank Venus, Linda is so much more receptive to me that she invites me "take a nap" with her when she wants to cuddle. We have always enjoyed cuddling, but she never would, never could, initiate it. Cupid's Poisoned Arrow is probably the best encounter that we have had in our marriage.
(emerson) It is very hard to introduce Karezza as the man, I am convinced. Women who want to try Karezza have a much easier time of it. As Rachel here has said, men will try anything to do with sex, pretty much. Women go into what Darryl here calls "feminine lock down mode" and the pretty much shut down even if it's not voluntary. It's not something they want for themselves.
My recomendation is to stop trying to tell your wife anything about Karezza or bonding behaviors. Just stop. Don't mention it again. And try to cuddle with her. Watch TV and just hold her hand. Go next to her. Snuggle. Do that as often as possible. Hold hands when you are out and about. When in bed, try to spoon and just cuddle. Tell her that's all you want to do. Let things relax and the bonding really work. And as your rebooting continues, you will find this helps a lot to control your urge to masturbate or use porn. Then, you can have sex with your wife and simply don't orgasm. Let her do what she wants. Help her along if she asks. But you don't orgasm.
That is the best thing as far as I know. It's the only thing because women often find men (like me) very controlling and that causes them to want to shut down on us. So we have to give them space to do what they want and discover what that is. Without any feeling that we're trying to tell them what to do.
[Advice to a newbie a few years later]
My main recommendation would be to make a commitment to yourself to have sex more slowly. About a quarter normal speed, as a minimum. This includes solo sex. If you can avoid orgasm, so much the better. As you don't live with your girlfriend you can't do what I would also suggest, which is to get together daily for a naked cuddle.
My wife, who has never read anything about Karezza, found it incredibly dull and pointless to begin with; but nowadays she relishes every moment. She's also become more sexually demanding than at any time in our relationship. She can't get enough of the cuddles, either. Honestly, I can't remember the last time she turned me down for either.
We've been practicing Karezza on and off for years now, with great difficulty to begin with; but I doubt either of us has ever gone 75 days without an orgasm. Half the battle, in my opinion, knowing how orgasm can create problems, is using that knowledge to prevent it from doing so, by being particularly affectionate when you least feel like it.
[More] I got interested in the idea and gradually put it into practice. I didn't discuss it much with my wife, as she isn't keen on theory. Initially, all that meant was, I tried to avoid climaxing. I found this incredibly difficult, and it seemed pointless, to begin with. I couldn't work out out when what we were doing was supposed to end, in the absence of orgasm. My wife went along with what I was doing, but she, too, found it difficult, and difficult to see the point.
It took us ages to find our way. One problem was, we didn't really experience much in the way of negative consequences from orgasm. That wasn't why I got interested, though. It was more the fact that I was finding conventional sex a little disappointing.
Anyway, we persevered, and gradually we both began to enjoy it more. From my wife yawning after ten minutes and me finding myself wondering why I wasn't feeling more ecstatic, we have arrived at a point where we can continue more or less indefinitely, swimming in a sort of ocean of bliss.
I found my wife's orgasms almost as much of an issue as my own. She had never been one for giving herself a climax, and had always relied on me moving in ways that stimulated her. Of course, they also stimulated me, so when I stopped doing them, she was left 'unsatisfied'. I felt mean not to 'give' her what she wanted, so tended to assist with a helping hand. I started noticing this was like having an orgasm by proxy, so steeled myself to resist the temptation.
Nowadays, we make love more often than we ever have, and we orgasm maybe one in every five to ten times. We've been together since 1976, but I'm not sure if that makes it easier or harder to change old habits.
[More] In my situation I pressured my wife not to at first but it kind of backfired. I think that there are various man-woman dynamics, and one is "more controlling/dominant man and more submissive follower woman" and that is my relationship, and so my pressuring her with sex introduced too much of a controlling vibe. It took awhile to undo the damage and things are better than ever, and she frequently has orgasms, more than she had for many years, sometimes 2 or 3, sometimes none...
Does it cause issues in mood? Yes I think so. But it's not for me to say what she should do or shouldn't do as far as her body and her decisions are concerned. I think that has also been a big improvement -- I'm more respectful of her choices and her autonomy than I used to be. And I'm more considerate.
Sometimes her body will respond, and I can feel it, but she will not feel it. She will deny it. I think this is quite common -- women often don't perceive their own arousal the same way a man perceives his. I think there is a "solution" to this, but she has to want to "solve" the problem. I think for women it involves self-exploration, perhaps something like Orgasmic Meditation, masturbation here and there...for a woman who's been really shut down sexually. But I no longer see this as "my project"...I remain hopeful my wife will get interested but I think the less I want her to be, the more likely that may happen someday. Certainly she can perceive the pleasure and connection and how much better this is than conventional sex was.
She realized this over the past year or two. She said, "I like this a lot better than the old way". It's been a huge gift. And she looks younger than ever, sexier than ever, objectively she could be 20 years younger biologically than she is chronologically...and I think this has a lot to do with it.
tl;dr: Detailed, detailed communication may be key to unlocking some relationship problems. If you are not very communicative normally, try opening up. Really stretch your boundaries!
This morning she snuggled up behind me. These days I think it's important to give clear, verbal (as well as nonverbal) feedback about what I like, and I've been making an effort to give that feedback. In previous years, I would have enjoyed the snuggle but would have remained silent, giving her no feedback. This time I said, "I really like it when you snuggle up with me like that." She said, "You like me to put my hips against you?" I said, "Yes, and your chest, and your legs." She snuggled up closer. She asked, "You like me to put my hand on your chest?" I said, "Yes. And I like it even more on my penis." So she gently stroked my penis for about an hour, and I made sounds of contentment (nonverbal feedback). At some point I said, "I love lying here, half asleep, and enjoying the snuggling and you touching me like that." She said, a bit jokingly, "You don't want to make love? You're going to be happy for a week?" (She was referring to my statement in the email that after sex I'm happy for three days.) I said, "This is a different sort of happiness. I'll probably be happy for about a day." I didn't feel a need to answer the first question (about making love) since I was happy to continue with what we were doing, and sex is scheduled for tomorrow anyway.
As I said previously, I'm a man of few words, most of the time. Believe it or not, that conversation (above) is one of the most extended and detailed conversations we've ever had about sex and cuddling. It makes me wonder what else I've never said that she should know.
I think that conversation was useful because it reinforced what I've been saying to her for several years: that I like her to snuggle up with me, put an arm around me, etc. She has a hard time believing that because she is just the opposite. She doesn't like like me to put my arm around her (she says my arm is too heavy and it is uncomfortable), and doesn't like me to snuggle up with her when she wants to sleep. For me, snuggling is more important than sleeping (within reason)!
A few days ago, I asked (again) what had changed? Why was she willing to have sex more frequently now? She said it was because I had said that I was happy for three days after sex. The first time I ever said that to her was in the email. I mentioned it again during the mating frenzy weekend when she asked me why I tried to avoid having orgasms. Previously, I would usually say something about being irritable for a few days after an orgasm. This time I said if I have an orgasm, it feels great for a few seconds, but I don't feel anything special in the following days, but with karezza, I feel happy for about three days afterward. So isn't that interesting?! Both statements are true, but the second statement (I'm happy for three days after) was much more effective for motivating her to be more generous about sex.
My wife seems to have two modes. One is "busy/tired." In that mode, she doesn't want to deal with me, and even a question like "When is the next time we can make love?" can get a bad reaction. The other mode is "relaxed/generous." Those are the times when she'll smile if I give her a hug (instead of looking slightly annoyed and pulling away quickly), when she's willing to make love, and when productive conversations can occur. I should figure out how to let her relax more, and also be less afraid of starting conversations when she is in that mode.
Comments by Marnia: The power to make someone "happy for 3 days" is a lovely power to have.
Given that one orgasm seems to intensify cravings for another (the "chaser effect"), I think it's very comforting to women to be assured that their sexual responsiveness won't open up a Bottomless Pit of neediness. This may be why the "3-day" statement finally had the desired effect.
Sadly, I'm not sure this fear is conscious enough for most women to realize why they avoid triggering a cycle of increasing neediness by avoiding sex in the first place as often as they can. It's a shame because it's not that hard to reach a satisfactory accommodation when both partners understand the biology of orgasm (and/or are willing to incorporate karezza). That's why I wrote my book. But most women don't seem willing to educate themselves. They trust their unconscious uneasiness more.
(Louie, age 30s) Three years ago my marriage was in a bad place. We were like strangers living under the same roof. We have come a long way since then, but I know that there are still some obstacles in our marriage that prevent us from having the full energetic exchange that a relationship needs in order to thrive.
On the surface, my wife always said that she loved me as much as she ever did, and that there was no trust issue. However, her body was saying something else. For the past few years, when we are having sex, my wife has always been very open and relaxed right up to the point where I am ready to go inside of her. Then she seems to tense up. She tenses up so much that sometimes I simply cannot get in. Sometimes I can manage to catch her by surprise and slip in quite easily. Thus, I know that it is not just tight muscles (which is her explanation). I know that it is a matter of trust. There is a line in the sand that she is reluctant to cross. She is reluctant to open up and let me inside. I think that this goes way beyond the obvious physical connection of penis and vagina. The physical is just a metaphor for what is happening on deeper levels.
In the past I have tried to engage this issue on the purely physical level with little or no success. Lubricants do not really help and it does not seem to matter how much foreplay we engage in. It is not a matter of her not being aroused enough. It is a matter of trust and willingness to fully open herself to receive.
I was inspired by the book to try an experiment and it seems to be working beautifully. I tend to wake up before my wife does. I lie quitely in bed until I sense that she is awake. Then I roll over to her side of the bed and cuddle up with her. This is something that I have been doing for quite some time. She always complained that when I do this, I make it impossible for her to fall back to sleep. In hindsight, I can see that I was somewhat needy about this cuddling in the past. I was desperate to feel close to her and was trying to draw energy from her to reassure myself that she loved me. Nobody enjoys feeling like another person is clinging to them for fearful reasons. Thus, I can see whay she was not enthusiastic about those cuddle sessions.
Now things are different. I cuddle up to her and I relax as much as possible. I then consciously open myself and will my masculine energy to flow to her. I can actually feel warmth flowing from me to her. I can also feel her relax and soften in response to it. After a while I feel something coming back. I feel myself relax in response to what she is sending back to me. This is an ecstatic exchange of energy.
I have been doing this experiment for a few weeks and it has been getting stronger and easier. The energy flows feel more powerful and get established more easily. This morning was especially powerful. I felt several large waves of energy flow over us and both of our bodies shuddered when it happened. At one point we had a back and forth thing going that was totally intoxicating. It got so strong that my wife sounded like she was going to have an orgasm from it. Her breath got into that rapid, shallow pattern that she always has when an orgasm is coming on. I was curious to know if she could actually get an orgasm from just cuddling, but then I decided to back away from that. I consciously ramped down the energy that I was sending her and her breathing immediately went back to its normal pattern. Neither of us said anything during this whole time. I eventually rolled away, got out of bed and started getting ready for work.
A while later my wife came down. She looked like she had been thinking hard about something. She said "I like this morning cuddling thing that we have started doing." I told her that I agreed. It is a nice way to start the day. She said "We go to bed at different times, so it is nice that we have this time to ..." Her thought kind of trailed off at that point. I said "connect?" She said "Yeah, I guess that is the right word." Then the kids came down and we got busy with other things.
I think what is happening here is that my wife's internal resistance to deep love is dissolving. Since I started this experiment I have noticed that she is much more openly affectionnate throughout the day. When she hugs me, it is not a quick squeeze and release. She nestles right in and stays there for 20-30 seconds. She will often give me little kisses for no reason. I am sure that if I asked her why she is doing that she would not know. There is nothing that she can point to logically that would explain why she wants more intimate contact with me. I am not "doing" anything that would explain it.
What I think is happening is that the energetic cords between us are becoming much bigger and energy is flowing through them much more powerfully than ever before. When I cuddle her the energy flows in huge waves like nothing we have ever experienced before.
We have not had intercourse for a while (for various reasons). I have decided that I am in no rush to bring that back in. I think that this cuddling exercise is really opening things up in our relationship. There is major reconstruction going on in our energetic connections. I want that exercise to complete what it is doing first before I try to take things to to the sexual level again. When sex does come back in, I have a feeling that it will be a whole different level of experience than it was before. It is my expectation that the huge leaps forward that we have made at the energetic and emotional level will result in a much more relaxed and flowing physical experience of sex as well.
I think that we exchange energy with other people at multiple levels. The physical level is the one that we all know and love, but it is only one part of the equation. The mental level, the emotional level and the energetic level are all very important too.
When we cuddle, I mentally decide to relax. I then feel relaxed emotions, and feel my phsyical body relax. All of that relaxation means that all of my "channels" are wide open and energy can flow powerfully.
My wife seem to go through something different. She feels my phsyical presence, and my energy flowing to her first. Her energy does not start flowing immediately. She takes a bit of time to warm up as she absorbs the energy coming from me. Eventually she reacahes a point where she lets go at the mental and emotional levels and just relaxes into the flow of the whole thing. That is when her energy opens up and we can get a real back and forth going.
I think one of the dangers of phsyical sex is that people can get too fixated on physical sensations. They stop paying attention to what is happening at the mental, emotional and energetic levels. Energy flows where attention goes. If all of your attention is at the physical level then that is where your energy will be flowing while the other levels are somewhat starved.
I think that karezza works because it does not over stimulate at the phsyical level. Attention is not so fixated on physical sensations and thus it can also move at the other levels and stimulate flow on those levels. The best sex occurs when you feel totally connected to your partner on all levels (mental, emotional, eneregtic and phsyical). Traditional sex is often one or two dimensional. Kaarezza has the potential to be multi-dimensional and that makes it much more satisfying. It is a more complete experience of love making.
I have had a tendency to worry about my wife and her lack of interest in sex. I wanted to have that bonding, and she didn't seem to care, and that really bothered me. I am now learning how to let go of expectations for how she needs to behave, or how she needs to grow. That is her business.
It took a long time, but I eventually got past the idea that I needed her full coopertation in order to conduct my own sexual healing. I weaned myself off of fantasy MO. I have been gradually stretching out my periods of abstinence from ejaculation. And (this is the one that really shocked me) my neediness surrounding sex just kind of fell away. It is not that I stopped wanting sex. I would happily make love with my wife any time. It just is not as urgent any more. I no longer desire sex like a drug that I must have. I now desire sex in the same way I desire a good social event. If the opportunity comes up, and we can both relax and enjoy it, then I am game. However, if it is going to feel forced then I would rather not.
It is a sweet kind of liberation to know that something that used to create such suffering in me (our libido difference) has now become no big deal. It no longer has the power to strain our relationship.
My wife cooperates, but does not embrace, Karezza. And, even after 25 years of marriage, I am still learning how to effectively interact with my wife. No doubt, I have done some important things wrong for many, many years.
1. It has now gotten through my thick skull that when my wife says, 'I really do not like to be groped in the morning,' that things work out better when I do not grope her in the morning. She accepts massage, but is unhappy if I proceed to groping. So, largely, I have stopped groping her in the morning. She seems appreciative.
2. It has now gotten through my thick skull that when my wife says, 'I do not like it that this Karezza stuff can go on and on and on,' that Karezza does not have a clear-cut -- and relatively quick -- stopping point really does bother her. So, though it seems a bit clinical, I now set a timer for 20 minutes when we begin Karezza. When the timer goes off, I stop immediately. My wife seems relieved and seems more relaxed during Karezza, now.
We are approaching three years of Karezza, now. My neediness really seems to have gone away, largely. My wife seems more receptive to intercourse, now; she seems to enjoy it, instead of acceding to it as a duty. We treat each other much better, now: fewer flare-ups and very few blow-ups.
I have lived the scenariowhere my wife suddenly (after childbirth) did not want to have sex with me, and did not even want to cuddle. Anything at all that was intimate was out. For a while I tried to force the issue. I argued with her and told her that I needed sex and more touch time. That did not work. It just made me look needy.
The solution that eventually worked for me was to start at ground zero and slowly work my way back up. I decided to do the same kind of things that I would do with a woman that I was interested in dating, but she had no feelings at all for me.
First I started hanging around with her. We had the habit of spending lots of our free time in seperate rooms. If she was in the living room with her book, I brought my book and sat in the living room with her. If she was watching TV, I came and watched TV with her. Just being together got the ball rolling. Eventually we started making comments to each other about what we were reading or watching.
When we were 100% comfortable at that level, I started going out of my way to initiate touch. If she was on the couch I would sit beside her and take her hand. If I passed her in the kitchen I would kiss her on the back of the neck or something.
The next step after that was to take advantage of opportunities to cuddle. I did not ask her to come to bed and cuddle with me. Rather, if I came to bed and she was still awake, I rolled over to her side and cuddled her.
You just start with what is comfortable for her and then escalate gradually over time. Just being together starts the exchange of energy. [For more on why this approach works, see The Lazy Way to Stay in Love]
(Bodie) Nov-22 So my wife and I have begun our journey in discovering Karezza. She has several reservations about Karezza but they essentially boil down to: 1) What happens when she just doesn't feel like Karezza intercourse and I do; 2) She's OK with Karezza as long as she can still have her orgasms (my, so far, unvoiced concern is if she is sexually sated and I'm not - we are not going to be on the same "schedule" for intercourse based on her diminished sex drive); 3) Sometimes she's too tired or too stressed out to even hug - so then what? We have a twenty-six year marriage where we are "best friends" but would like to have better "chemistry" and maybe rediscover some of the passion (both sexually and emotionally) we once had for each other.
On some level she feels she is doing Karezza for me (not us) and I try to tell her (without judgment) that the Karezza benefits to her and to BOTH of US are substantial. She really does enjoy the relaxed nature of our prolonged, non-goal oriented intercourse and when she wants to orgasm when she feels we are at the end, it is really effortless (and swift) for her after our Karezza session (where before she had a lot of anxiety about her ability to orgasm during conventional sex, whether orally, manually or otherwise). I am happy to accommodate her needs for orgasm as long as it does not jeopardize my ability to NOT ejaculate. I tell her Karezza offers benefits, not just in the physical and emotional intimacy during intercourse (which is HUGE), but also in how we can relate to each other outside of the bedroom as well. The pair-bonding behaviors, like hugging, tongue kissing, massages, skin to skin contact, hand holding, foot and head rubs, spooning, etc... have a positive effect on how we can relate to each other on an on-going basis. She's says I am too much of an idealist (Utopianist) and thinks I am overselling this whole concept because of my "need for sex."
I am being patient with my wife. She really does enjoy the prolonged intimate coupling of Karezza intercourse but has not been able to "rethink" the issue of having an orgasm. She is reading the book (Cupid's Poisoned Arrow "CPA") and she is curious about NOT having an orgasm. In 26 years she has experienced that situation before but only by "accident," or because she was too tense or too "into it" or not focused enough to be able to climax. She has never intentionally turned down an orgasm and she does not feel that she gets a "hangover" from having one. I believe she is just not seeing it - as I can tell when I am having dopamine fluctuations from an "accidental" ejaculation over two weeks ago and masturbation a week ago to relieve a painful buildup of sexual pressure (my first such MO in four months). Our last two Karezza experiences have both been extremely positive and satisfying (even if she did end with an orgasm). We are trying to learn this on the fly and I am really committed to trying to keep my dopamine in check by not ejaculating.
I am a recovering sex addict and she has some residual emotional issues she is dealing with related to my acting out sexually. We are both trying to heal and she needs me to be patient, understanding and unrushed throughout this process. I went through a 90 day abstinence period to re-boot before we had any sexual activity (we did do some pair-bonding stuff like hugs and massages during the abstinence period).
In reading some of the other literature, it appears that it is not an uncommon problem for women to still want an orgasm even if their partner has decided to forego his. Many women are unwilling to give up their orgasm and, therefore, I defer to the "Goddess" within her. I have discussed this with her and she is considering it and maybe she will try this without the orgasm for three weeks to see if it works for her. We are early on in our experimentation with Karezza and have been taking things slowly and "feeling our way in the dark." CPA is helpful but each couple needs to find their own way through the various challenges within the relationship.
Nov-25 Today we both tried no orgasm. She felt "electrified" and while she felt like she wanted an orgasm, she said she had a "wave" orgasm - not the big crashing wave - just a gentle melty, tingly one. So we will keep you posted. Thanx for the input. Here's to KAREZZA HARMONY...
Nov-26 Since we had Karezza intercourse w/out the "O" we seem to be in a better place with each other. Still pretty new to us though. Plus we have both had "accidental" orgasms in the past two weeks so we are still in the dopamine fluctuation stage. My wife doesn't seem to be any worse off for having foregone her orgasm. I feel great too! More energy, more snuggling, more kissing. How can that be a bad thing?? This is definitely a work in progress.
Nov-28 We tried Karezza yesterday again and after 45 minutes or so of intercourse, my wife said she was feeling sexually "frustrated" and asked for an orgasm. I accommodated her needs but was wondering what I might be doing wrong that is getting her so overheated. I felt fine and did not feel like I needed to ejaculate so I figure I am getting her too hot somehow and that is leading to her feeling of frustration. This is probably a dumb question but is it OK to stroke her ass, rub and massage her back, play with her breasts and nipples and tongue kiss while doing Karezza intercourse? - I figured these were "warm" not "hot" actions during lovemaking but she seems to gotten too close to the Edge. Is it possible her "frustration" comes from her pre-conceived concept of regular orgasm-ending coupling rather than "warm love?" Somehow, I am doing things that are too intense for her and I'm not sure how I can tone things down from "hot" to "warm."
Dec-01 We tried again today (this morning) and while things started out well, I felt rushed, somewhat anxious, and had trouble focusing on the moment and lost my erection. We continued Karezza intercourse for half and hour or more but I really had trouble re-focusing, maintaining my erection (I was soft much more than I was hard), relaxing and staying "present". My mind was wondering all over the place and my erection was very elusive as a result. I really WANTED this (probably too much) because we are going to be separated for more than a week or so due to travel and busy schedules and I just could not clear my mind of all the negative chatter and enjoy the sexual connection time with my wife. Afterward, she asked for an orgasm, which I accommodated and then we spent about 20-30 minutes just lying next to each other skin-to-skin. I was able to stay in the moment during that time before I had to get up, get a shower and get dressed for work.
I also find that not having a orgasm keeps me "primed" for sex and the thought of no Karezza for 7-10 days is causing me more than a little stress. HELP! Am I losing it or just so green and inexperienced I am putting too much pressure on myself? I really want this to work but I think I'm making a mess of it.
ALL of the advice I am getting is helpful - I am just trying to find my way in the dark here. My wife has agreed to read CPA but has only gotten through 12 pages. We have pretty busy lives right now and because of that we are unable to connect for a while. She will get back to the book eventually. We have discussed much of it but its better if she reads it herself rather than getting my filtered "Reader's Digest" version. She still has a lot of skepticism about the positive effects of bonding and Karezza: like greater marital harmony (too Utopian) and the "fact" that she can still be sexually fulfilled w/out the *O* . . . Puzzled
On a different note, I am feeling OK about the benefits of Karezza and I do not feel sexually frustrated (YET) from foregoing my ejaculation and orgasm. I do feel that arousal is very easy (too easy?) and my sexual anticipation is heightened by not having an orgasm. I'm sure that over time, these things with smooth out but right now they are on-going issues for me. The thought of not having Karezza (or even the bonding aspects of Karezza) for 10 days is difficult geschockt - I have to just take each day one day at a time and I can get through it.
I have a daily regimen of meditation and it does help - although I have not specifically meditated about the love I feel for my wife, I am doing heart-opening and loving kindness meditations. These are good suggestions and I know that slowing down and seeking some calming and relaxation do benefit me. The trouble is that while I can stay in the "moment" while meditating for 20 minutes, once I get out into the "rat race" world, all that calming stuff fades in my rearview mirror as I prepare to jump into the fray. Such is life in the 21st century.
The 3 week vacation is a first for me too. I have carefully planned to take days on either side of the week between Xmas and New Years when things are at a much slower pace. Plus smart phones make it easier to keep abreast of the stuff I need to follow so that while I am in "vacation" mode, I'm still working "part-time." Huxley said "Technological progress has merely provided us with a more efficient means for going backwards."
[Advice from forum member] Step back, have a look at the big picture. If I remember right you have many years of conventional sex behind you. A radical change is lovemaking is not going to happen overnight, in a few weeks, or months. Not to mention karezza is not about performance, and you are coming at it from a very performance-based perspective, trying to get it "right".
There is no "right", this is a genuine organic learning process between oneself and one's partner. There is your learning process, hers, and the combination of you both. It will take time. You're doing great. Think about it: Do you have any idea how many couples your age are practically living a sexless marriage? A whole lot. That's clearly not you, thank your lucky stars. Do you have any idea how many men your age are so stuck in their ways that they would never consider a change like this, especially in the sexual department? You are open to growth and keeping your relationship alive.
I think you're doing way more than fine. I just think you're sweating it too much. Trying to do it "right" is counterproductive. In some ways karezza is a very feminine flow. Trying hard to do it right and get on top of it is a particularly masculine approach. Try letting some of those masculine ways ease up some. Also, watch out for that masculine neediness; it's a sneaky one.
You know, my wife kept merrily orgasming for years after I stopped. It was still way better than when we both were doing it. I was pretty darn happy not orgasming myself, and let her take all the time she wanted. I think it took me a good six months just to get the hang of not going over the edge, knowing how to ride the energy and feel the "flow" so to speak.
Personally I would just concentrate on mastering your own sexual energy flow, both in and out of the bedroom. That ought to keep you plenty busy. Learning how to really live "beyond orgasm" takes time to get used to. You're on the path, this is a great beginning, ease up on yourself.
My wife and I had a change of schedules and we shared a very late night together unexpectedly. I was already asleep when she got home and we snuggled in bed giving each other back rubs for half and hour before we decided to move on to karezza intercourse. I was semi alert but I think my concentration was not fully engaged and she was pretty hungry (too hot). I only lasted 10-15 minutes before I lost control and accidently ejaculated. We continued to stay sexually connected for another 15 minutes or so and then snuggled for another 20-30 minutes before we disengaged. I asked her if she needed her orgasm and she said yes so I accommodated her. Although I was EXHAUSTED, I had a very fitfull sleep and now at work - I need a NAP as my energy level is LOW.
I have stubbed my toe in the dark again and I am getting discouraged by how we are progressing (or not really progressing) with karezza. I know I need to slow things down and that this is more about relaxing into it than TRYING but I can't seem to adequately communicate this to my wife. Plus, I know I should have settled for just snuggling since I was already so tired and let the intercourse wait until I was better able to focus (seems like Monday-morning quarterbacking at this point) but things got carried away. Our crazy schedules this week and next, plus the unexpected chance to enjoy intercourse sort of clouded my judgment. I believe you when you say it will get easier and to not give up but I have to admit that right now I am discouraged.
[Advice from different forum member] For us it's been much more about focusing on slowing down and being in the moment more than it is about avoiding orgasm. Not having an orgasm is the by-product, not the goal. We've been doing this 18 months or so, and we're not orgasm 'free'. And it doesn't bother us that we're not. Sometimes, it comes out of the blue, and other times, we are surprised at what simple little thing triggered one. It takes time to become more sensitive - not unlike what the guys here have found when they stop the PMO madness and give up the death-grip on their willies. We're retraining our brains, as well as our bodies to feel the more subtle and delicious sensations that Karezza delivers.
I would say it was at least 6 months before we had really found our groove. We went from having sex just twice a month, to everyday for awhile, and then every other day. This gave us lots more opportunities for 'learning experiences'. And the orgasm frequency actually went up, compared to the sex-2-times a month that was usual for us.
It sounds like you're both busy enough that you don't have a lot of time for good quiet 'connecting' time - sex or no sex, and that makes Karezza a little harder, as you are left feeling touch deprived, and a little 'hungry' for sex. I'm not sure when I started setting the alarm early, but I make sure we have 15 minutes to 1/2 hour of semi-awake time to snuggle naked every day. It's really easy to feel needy and 'hot', as you say, when you're feeling lonely or touch-starved.
Dec-12 [Advice from third forum member] Initially in our journey I encouraged my wife to abstain as well, but she does not seem to experience negative effects from orgasm and can literally have multiple orgasms until she is just too tired to continue – with seemingly no negative fallout. After some time I realized this is an intensely individualistic journey and she was going to have to come to this on her own terms and in her own time. After four years I have seen no signs of her slowing down at all and I jokingly refer to her as the “Energizer Bunny” – you know, just keeps on going and going. Although I remain motivated to get her on board with this at the end of the day it does not really matter because we are in a much better place now than before we started this journey.
What I have found is that in choosing to connect in this way with my lovely wife it changed the way in which I was received by her – and we both became less orgasm-centric and much more focused on enjoying the moment and truly being present. We do regularly engage in intercourse that does not lead to an orgasm for her (particularly fond of slow drawn out rear entry while spooning) and totally enjoy sharing the delicious ebb and flow of bio-electric energy between us. Because I no longer deplete myself there are many more opportunities to connect and my lovely wife is taking advantage of my increased availability and we are having way more sex now in our late 40’s than we ever did in our 20’s. And the bonding and intimacy continue to grow even after all this time. You know you have it right when the younger folks tell you to “get a room” because we are so affectionate we literally cannot keep our hands off each other. When you connect on this level it is hard to stay mad at your partner and this has led to much more harmonious relations on a day to day basis. You attack obstacles and life challenges together because this puts you both on the same team.
You need to realize this is a huge fundamental change from the fertilization driven urges we are genetically programmed with toward taking conscious control of your sexuality and how you choose to connect with a partner. It took me some years to understand what was taking place inside my own body and come to a place where I understood the value in managing my sexual energy. Think evolution not revolution and enjoy every step forward as well as the steps back – because you always learn from this as well. The benefits of Karezza cannot be overstated and definitely worth the investment in time, effort, and energy. Great wealth of knowledge and experience on the site here to keep you motivated and on track as well as you journey toward increased “marital harmony”.
Dec-30 My wife and I are finishing week 2 of a vacation and have been enjoying KAREZZA without the stresses of "normal" everyday life and it has made a HUGE difference. We are more in tune -harmonious - and have been enjoying each other's company - both in and out of bed. Plus we have avoided orgasms (a slip still happens but without problems). Just thought I'd send a short update. Still have a week of vacation to go
Jan-09 Melty Trumps Big O! So after a three week vacation and regular karezza my wife has admitted that she (who has been very reluctant to forgo her orgasm) likes slow, non-goal oriented PVI over the fast, hot and heavy sex of before. She even admits that the melty feeling after a long relaxing karezza session is WONDERFUL. So good, in fact, that she does not miss her orgasm (although she still likes the occasional clitoral-based orgasm). The biggest thing though, is the CLOSENESS and INTiMACY we have for each other. OK - we were joined at the hip for three weeks and that had a lot to do with it as well, but the karezza had a major impact on our overall feelings of closeness and our ability to communicate openly and honestly. Now, we are back to reality and our busy schedules and lives but the respite of karezza is (I think/hope) part of our sex lives at this point.
We still have the odd slip where I ejaculate but less and less as time goes on. Plus we are snuggling more often and hug and kiss each other more than ever before. I think there is a lot of positive energy coming out of karezza - but then, I'm still trying to incorporate this into out regular lives (vacation is not "normal").
So thanks, everybody, who coached me and encouraged me along the way - you were all SO right! Its not about perfection - its about trying something new and learning how to CONNECT on a different level. So far so good!
(Curious Fellow) My wife has been pretty good to me for the last year+. [For several years prior to this, she was nasty and even started sleeping in a different bedroom.] The relationship continues to warm up and get better. Karezza... I'm not keeping track, but it's been at least three months since last orgasm. Things have been pretty peaceful...
My solution to the conflict where I wanted karezza and she wanted conventional sex, was simply to stand firm and not give in. I'm not sure what her reasons for wanting conventional sex are. Sometimes she says she wants the "high" (I think she rarely, if ever, has orgasms, but
she clearly does get a thrill from more vigorous sex, and finds karezza kind of boring). Sometimes she says she is concerned about my prostate health. I think for a while she thought that my avoiding orgasm was a sort of rejection of her. I think that concern may have been put to rest when one Saturday afternoon I took a nap with her - just snuggled up, let her sleep, and didn't ask for sex. I think it sent the message that I enjoyed BEING with her - I wasn't just there for sex.
These days she still sometimes asks for more vigorous sex - which I simply can't do for more than a few strokes without having an orgasm - but she doesn't insist.
I'm going to visit my parents for Christmas while she stays here. This morning I offered to have more vigorous sex and orgasms the week before I left (and get away before the fallout starts falling out!) and she said, "no need." I don't know what to make of that. Maybe it's a good sign. I'll probably offer again, but if she really doesn't want that, then it's fine with me!
(Rachel) First of all, the fact that you and your wife are communicating about this is FANTASTIC. So many couples close off the communication and can't even get to this point. So kudos to you. That makes me feel like the two of you will be very successful once you get started with karezza.
There is so much to say and so much I've learned and I'm sorry I don't know how to condense it, but if you and your wife could please read Tantric Sex for Men, and then continue on with the other Richardson books, you will see the "how" behind karezza (whereas Marnia's book is more about the "why").
Basically, my whole view of sex has changed...the whole meaning of it. I think I now understand how important it is for both men and women to have extended "PVI" (penile-vaginal intercourse) time. It is incredibly healing, and you both gain by getting the yin/yang or male/female energy you are craving. That is what it's all about, unless you are trying to conceive.
When you can get past the urge to orgasm and start to appreciate having the genitals connected just for the sake of it, you will never want to stop! And you won't want to orgasm because you don't want the delicious feelings to end (and your wife won't, either). But to describe this to someone who has never done it is nearly impossible.
As a woman, to finally have a man inside me for such a long period of time (rather than the typical few minutes!!) is all I've ever wanted. And for a man, to be allowed to stay inside the vagina and be welcomed and loved and wanted is also the be-all/end-all.
What happens to women in conventional sexual relationships is that over time, we lose interest because it's too fast and too hard, and we are not allowed to receive the yang energy we need. There's just nothing in it for us, sad to say. (Porn only promotes this type of sex by showing women supposedly "enjoying" being banged upon, which couldn't be further than the truth.) Men start to get bored because who wants to be with a woman who isn't enjoying herself?
I was married for 20 years and I was like your wife in that I really had no desire for sex. At all. I didn't find out about karezza until after my divorce, so I can't say whether this would have helped my relationship or not. (I try not to dwell on the past.)
But the man I now love has always been very slow, very sensual, right from the beginning. Even when we were having regular "friction-based" sex, it was still lasting so much longer than I'd ever experienced. It was very natural for the two of us to progress to karezza as we both enjoy being connected for as long as possible. Something about his way of being just inspired me to start looking into tantra and that led me here.
The key for your wife will be for her to understand that once you start this, she needs to be fully conscious of her body, and not let her mind wander. And she must also relax fully (and the books explain this so well). There is no mind fantasy, no thinking ahead to orgasm, no wandering of thoughts--just fully being aware of how her body feels in the moment. This makes time pass so quickly, and makes everything *feel* so much better.
What happens is you ease into a peaceful state of being where even though you strongly desire one another, it is not the "horny-must-have-orgasm-right-now" kind of desire, but one where you just want to be close with skin-on-skin and PVI. Because you need each other's opposite energy.
(luv2fly) I wish there was more feedback from my wife but that's just who she is. No need for me to try to change her. One thing I did the last time we were in the middle of some nice Karezza was to ask if she was ready to stop and she said "no, not yet, a little longer," which was nice to hear. So I guess that's one way to get some positive feedback: Ask for it, which is better than none at all. The other form of feedback I get is all the fluids she is producing. I can't help but to think it is the natural result of a happy, content woman, at least that's how it appears. I think it is like tears from crying, only it comes from another source for a happier reason.
Another part of it is how important a woman's breasts are in order to prepare her to "receive" a man. The breasts are so often overlooked in favor of the clitoris, which is a big mistake--attention to the clitoris causes the vagina to constrict, rather than open up and welcome. There is a certain type of breathing a woman can do (which circles the opposite way from a man's way of breathing since our positive poles are opposite) which really helps her get in touch with her genitals and breasts and makes her desire sex so much more.
There is so much more to say, but I often think it's harder for a man to get past the orgasm mindset than for a woman. I know I have always instinctively wanted to be made love to this way, but didn't know how to ask for it or describe it.
Your wife will be extremely happy once you figure this out--I'm pretty darn sure, lol. It's absolute heaven. No goals, no pressure, no orgasm, just beautiful melding of the bodies and bonding. It's the best thing in the world!!
(Darryl) Advice to a husband thread
(emerson) As I wrote a few days ago, this is very early in our new sexual relationship. My wife ("Sparkles") and I are in our fifties and since I quit masturbating and quit having orgasms, about 3 weeks ago, I am changing the relationship and my wife finds this new intensity discomfiting and "pressure" which it is.
I have been coming either in my hand or in my wife for quite a long time now and now that I'm not, there is a very significant adjustment period. I'm sure it will continue for some time. The key is to not react and just go with the flow to the greatest extent possible. Generally I do this automatically especially these days but I find myself a tad insecure and I can understand how this affects my wife Sparkles.
She isn't stopping orgasms on her part (yet? maybe) but the real issue is that I am in fact quite intense and I can understand her feeling that it's too much intensity for her.
I've felt like I'm in a different world, and telling her about it but she hasn't fully gotten here yet. I think she is getting here and joining me but wasn't sure if the orgasm thing would be any sort of obstacle.
I can compare it to having tried a new drug. "Wow, this stuff is amazing, honey, you should try it," and I'm telling her about it and telling her about it and telling her about it, and she hasn't quite tried it yet. Of course it's sublime and isn't a drug (perhaps it's oxytocin high but that is over simplifying in any event as it's all chemicals when you come down to it) but I want her to join me fully here when she is ready. It's just too fine here for her not to.
[A couple days later] Naked snuggling is pretty ace to be honest. I am leaving everything to my lovely wife. Whatever happens or doesn't is up to her. I recognize that all these years things have been pretty male dominated. When I was done, we were done. And so forth. So now it's changed.
We snuggle morning and night and I take my cues from her. I think this is good. She seems to be more interested and a bit more active in our cuddling sessions. No intercourse is suggested or inferred. I am a bit frustrated at that but it's all good. I can be patient and it's intensely fun in any event.
[Next day] we plugged in a bit (at her suggestion) last night. She isn't on board with any of this yet really. She asked me if I really wasn't going to have an orgasm and I said yes. It lasted 10 or 15 minutes but she was tired. I don't push or anything and am really just eager to see how this all pans out. She never had the drive that I have had, but you never know what will happen when she has this space as Darryl has said.
I am not at all frustrated because I am learning from this to be more present and not goal oriented. I continue getting aroused when we cuddle but that isn't a crime, is it? Smiling I am working on some easy energy channeling stuff and I think this helps, and I am working on remembering to relax as things go along. I'm out of town on a business trip for a few days as of tomorrow. But I'll return on Sunday and Snuggle City will be leaving the station then. This is really exciting. I think she's at the "what's the point of this?" type stage, but we'll find out together.
[Days later] What a sensational day so far. We had a session of PIV [penis-in-vagina] towards the end of the day, second day in a row. Lasted longer than ever, about 35 minutes. My erections came and went and it was all fine.
She said it was better on an empty stomach (Dr. Bass had that right for SURE) and then she decided she was hungry and we snuggled a bit, plugged in for a few more minutes and then got up to make dinner. And we really talked about stuff. She said this is more relaxing for her and she likes it better (than the "old" way we had sex.) She said it didn't feel different to her at all, and she asked me how it felt for me and I tried to tell her. I'm so grateful that she is honest with me. I told her that I had felt lonely and detached with the sex we were having and that I felt bad about either being a pile driver or having to masturbate to orgasm much of the time. She really understood.
During intercourse I felt from her energy that she could orgasm and I asked her if she wanted to and if she wanted me to help her, and she said that I wasn't so she wouldn't. She feels like trying non-orgasmic for a bit. In a way a part of me is a little disappointed, the little ego me, because I don't get to help her cum. But of course it's good, it's very good.
I never asked her not to orgasm and I'm glad she is not trying to have an orgasm (as opposed to trying not to have them). I can feel things changing and our getting more in sync much more quickly than I expected. I think that Darryl is so spot on. Men can maintain their quiet path and set the example of what they are seeking and women respond to that masculine quality of him knowing what he wants.
My woman has seen the amazing changes in me and my enthusiasm for her and she has felt it. Also, she has seen me never insist about sex and finally get over the "pressure" element of my neediness. We spend a lot of time in bonding behaviors which I had to insist on at first which upset her. But now she's really into them too. And she is learning that I love her wishes with regard to intercourse and truly I don't feel at all bad if she doesn't want to do it.
This is interesting:
Yesterday we had a bit of very bad financial news. She was away when I got the news. I had asked her about making love earlier, and she had said she didn't want to and I had said, fine. When she got back she saw that I was upset and she instantly assumed it was due to her turning me down. After I explained what it was really about, she stressed out (with me) over the news. Turns out the news wasn't bad after all, it was a mistake. But she "got" the fact that I'm not feeling bad or anything if she doesn't want to have sex with me and that I love her honesty and just want what she wants.
I think something clicked with her, and now she trusts me much more and she initiated this intercourse...she came to me and asked if I wanted to come to bed with her later in the day after this news event and the aftermath of finding out it was a mistake and the misunderstanding regarding my bad mood when she had returned.
This morning we were snuggling and I asked if we could connect. She said 'yes,' so we did it that way for a few minutes. Then she gave me a quick hug and I knew it was time to get up. But that was so very nice and no big deal and it just keeps getting better. I am showing her that I won't be pressuring her for anything and I feel a whole new, much better and wonderful rapport and dynamic between us more than ever before. This really is the most wonderful thing ever to happen to me, quite honestly.
(Weeks later) So who would have thought that here I am in my fifties having sex with my beautiful wife Sparkles just about every day? My feelings for her have deepened immeasurably since we started this. And I just don't have any issues getting erections. They come, they go, but I don't come. That's the only rule. So far I haven't and it's been great. She hasn't either for almost a month.
I asked her, why she is doing this? She says that I am not orgasming so she won't either. And that I gave her a hard time about it and she feels self conscious if she does. On the other hand, she feels deeper feelings for me, she says. And although she still doesn't feel really aroused, she seems to be more present and enjoying intercourse more and more. Unlike before we don't have conventional foreplay. Oral sex just doesn't seem to belong in this new world either. It's all about penis in vagina and all about spending a lot of time cuddling and snuggling and what-have-you.
I mentioned last time that I am going through some tough times in my business. I am sure they are temporary and it is the nature of business to sometimes be that way, in my experience. Ups and downs are part of business just as they are part of real life. She is handling these far better than she did before. And so am I. Oxytocin is the most POWERFUL anti-anxiety agent nature devised. And, we really talk about stuff. More and more. We always communicated well. But now when we are snuggling we talk about stuff we never would have discussed before. We are closer than ever. Wow.
This morning I initiated intercourse and she said okay, if you want to. And I did. It wasn't great, but it was fine with me and fine with her too. Each day doesn't have to bring nirvana. I told her last night that the penis is supposed to be healing for the woman, per Diana Richardson. She thinks it's malarkey and maybe it is, but there seems to be some truth there somewhere. I also have been listening to Barry Long's Making Love recordings. The message is, have very frequent intercourse even if you don't feel like it. So that's what we're doing. I always feel like it. She doesn't always feel like it, but is becoming happier with it even if she doesn't feel like it. I think this is better. So we have intercourse just about every day and sometimes it's fantastic. Sometimes it's so-so. But it's very healthy for each of us.
She finally stopped worrying about taking a shower afterwards for fear of UTIs. I hope she doesn't get one, I don't think she will get one, and I think it's far better not to have to bolt out of bed to take a shower after intercourse. It's her call but she stopped doing it.
And I expect that as we move along she'll wake up to sensations she has never experienced before. We'll see. Meanwhile I can't tell you how much better I feel these days and how much better life is. Even in some tough times, things are SO much better than before. It's like a different planet. I hope you'll try it out. Simply:
1. resolve to bond every day, morning and night, like 30 - 60 minutes or longer, and
2. don't have orgasms.
You too will enter an entirely different world.
(Later) When I started Karezza it came at her as controlling on my part. And she withdrew, shut down. None of it conscious, or at least most of it not conscious. I was too bright a fire for her. I overwhelmed her so she couldn't start to find her own space.
So that is what is able to happen now. I'm giving her space, for real, and she feels it, for real. And she is exploring.
I've mentioned when I started Karezza, I thought our sex life had really stagnated. I think she was having orgasms every once in awhile at that point. Now she is having more than she was then, that's for sure. She is more relaxed about sex and that is producing more orgasms now that she kind of got interested in Karezza and noticed she preferred it. LOL.
(Most of our lovemaking is really Karezza, in fact. Still...)
Isn't this all so interesting...
I don't have any expectations for it going forward, except I know I will remain doing what I'm doing. She can do whatever she wants, for real. It's certainly fun for me, something to really enjoy.
I am sure there will be some fallout from it, but maybe not.
And if there is, we'll deal. I've dealt with it already quite a bit and it's most important to me to hold that space and let her do what she wants, with no judgment or comment or pressure of any kind. I think I'm doing that pretty well. And the intense bonding we do really helps a great deal.
(KevinJ) I know from my own experience with a woman, it takes a few weeks to get those love hormone receptors established in her brain before she begins to feel that she really wants to hold you inside her. Like Darryl said, women do have desire, they just don't have the program to be verbal about it. Woman is subtle and they like being honored, attended to. Tell her she's beautiful and give her lots of hugs when you are passing by. A foot rub, now and then, a cup of tea and an organic chocolate bar next to her bed... I find these things communicate to a woman more than words. She'll invite you in and then don't question if she wants to do it next time.
The more non-sexual affection she receives, the more her brain will rewire. Oxytocin isn't addictive, but it is desirable!
(months later) My challenge has been that I've been turned on to sex and my wife has not been. She's in her upper 50s and never been as interested in sex as I have.
So that has changed a lot and it's SO much better now. It's been better all along really, but for much of the time I was kind of going on faith. Faith that she was enjoying the benefits of Karezza even though she wasn't enthusiastic or feeling it the way I was, evidently.
Well now that's changed. It's a huge change too. Our sessions are much longer and she isn't impatient to get on with the day. I dwell inside her and she's more of an active participant than before. She is lubricating much better than before. I get the idea she really likes this now, when I wasn't sure before.
We must had intercourse with Karezza 120 times and I just persisted because this is so incredible to me, such amazing feelings. But she insisted all along that she didn't feel much. I persisted anyway and in the last few months I could feel her body really responding even as her conscious mind apparently still wasn't feeling it.
And then the breakthrough a few weeks ago. Now it's just SO SO SO much better as I can't emphasize enough. Yes, time patience and dedication. Fortunately, there is NOTHING that has been better for me in my life than this, ever, so that has been easy most of the time due to the huge rewards that I've already received. And now it just got SO much better (I know I mentioned that LOL).
(Sood) When we started experimenting with Karezza, the main issue between us was not that we didn't both enjoy conventional sex, but that we felt - or I felt and my wife agreed - that I pretty much 'ran the show'. I decided what was going to happen, when it was going to happen, and how frequently it was going to happen.
Wondering why this was - why my wife was interested enough to respond to my advances (even if she was occasionally 'distant') but not interested enough to make them herself - I began to suspect she had developed over the years such a strong habit of being uninvolved in the 'management' of sex - formulating the intention to have it, keeping that intention in mind, and then carrying out that intention - she had more or less forgotten she had sexual feelings of her own.
I didn't think there was anything particularly sinister about this, any more than it was 'wrong' for her to have ended up being in charge of the domestic, child rearing side of things. It's how our relationship unfolded.
We introduced the idea of taking turns at running our sex life. That is, organising the entire process, from thinking about it, initiating it, right through to doing it. We've tried many versions of this - every other day, every third day, etc - but by far the simplest and easisest to stick with has been 'every other week'. Last week, for example, was my wife's. Anything we did that could be called intimate, she decided on, and intiated. Obviously, this excludes ordinary, everyday kisses, touches, asides, etc, which either of us can, and do, do at any time; but all the big things - extended kissing, cuddling, fondling, intercourse; location, duration - are for her to decide about.
This has had marvellous results. It allows my wife to spent an entire week doing exactly as she likes - while still having to do something, every day, even if it's only holding hands for five minutes. It also enables her to be much more assertive. She was never a shrinking violet; but I think she felt bowed beneath my weight a bit. It also ensures that whatever I may choose, during my week, it no longer feels like I'm nagging at her, and it's done away with any sense I used to have that she'd rather be doing something else. I also find it very relaxing to be able to abandon all thought of initiating intimacy or lovemaking for a week at a time, knowing the ball is in my wife's court.
The sharing process seems to have allowed my wife to become not only more sexual, but much more 'present' when she is being sexual, because, half the time, she is 'in charge'.
(emerson) As a man I have long ago ceded my non-business social calendar largely to my wife.
And I realized that this is very similar to the description of being the partner who always manages and initiates sex. In my case, I don't manage or initiate social things and that's not great. I became aware of this just maybe 5 or 6 weeks ago and I decided to remedy it. So I planned our entire trip that we just got back from, and included two "dates" with her, where I planned the entire day and evening. It felt wonderful. I felt more centered in my masculinity because I was taking my girl on a date. It got me out of my rut. And now I'm going to do this regularly. I think it's danged attractive to a woman when you take charge of the day or evening. And I like myself better for it. I suddenly could see the connection there -- and how in various spheres we give up management to the partner and lose something of ourselves in the process.
(et123) I found that if I guide her with words and tell her to hug me and how much I want to connect to her she opens up in an amazing way. We did this yesterday and had amazing sex or kerezza. I tried being with her again in the night and she basically fell asleep on me. No connection So it is not always what we want but the guiding defenitely helped.
(louie) I think that the key to working with a woman who is locked down is you just keep directing warm and compassionate love at her, and give her some time and space to open up on her own. You always meet her where she is at. When she is ready to open up a little more, you make sure that any new space she creates is immediately filled with love.
(treehouse responding to another man's comment, quoted after the '>')
>I will NOT try to enter her until she wants me to be there.
If you have read slightly between the lines in my blog you will see that i have long taken a 'waiting for her' approach. This started pretty much from day one or our relationship, when i virtually told her that if she wants me to initiate sex shell be waiting a long time. I told myself, had pretty much talked myself into being 'naturally' sexually submissive. That was 6 years ago. For 5 and half of those years our sex life amounted to the scraps that she offered me through this fuzzy construct.
That construct i have come to see was all fear. If i didn't initiate i would not be rejected, simple as that. And in fact i was operating my entire life on the same un-proactive basis.
This karezza journey for me has started a big healing process, where im finding my power. Call it a mid life crisis if you want but it was CPA that started it, and especially Richardsons' material, and some of the stuff you recommended, no more mr nice guy, superior man etc.
But what im trying to say here is: i know now that she needs me to be strong, and part of that is seeing through her moodiness, small talk, avoidance, to gently and patiently prod her back into the present, to a present where she wants to make love as much as i do. And she does, she really does, she's told me she's got so much out of this ('my') karezza journey. Lately she's been crying a lot during sex, and this is saying something because she doesn't cry easily. She too is healing.
But i am telling you that this transformation was all a product of that tricky negotiation back in week 6, where through exhaustive attention and tenacity on my part i got her to agree to a trial schedule. Without that we would still be back where we started. I really believe that.
Now you have young kids, i know how that changes things. My first marriage didnt survive those first few years of kids. I get the sense that the pair of you are probably through that really intense stage, but have come out of it jaded and battle scarred. Hence double the need for some jolt, shift, or change of gear. To get your life back. Get a baby sitter, or just tell the kids that mum and dad 'meditate' from 7-9am on sundays and need to not be disturbed.
That's your role, she wont do it, she's the clucky all protective, the kids come first, one. Plan a couple of weekends away, romantic cottage type of thing, do all the organisation, show her that you value you and her time, and are willing to do something about it. She'll likely resist until you get out the door, then she'll thank you.
And BTW i also got a 'just do it' from emerson, and it made no sense to me either at the time, but it was listening to him that helped us. Just do whatever it takes to make it happen. Karezza will speak to her too.
Sidenote, if my partner is particularly stressed Ii found I need to chill for a good half hour before she comes on line. It's taken me weeks to really get this.
(months later) The last couple of times, she has altered our routine slightly, and its making a difference. Instead of her putting the oil on her first, then me, shes trying it the other way around. As its cold in our new place, she uses a torch under the duvet so she can see what she's doing, not get the oil everwhere. Its really funny, like kids under the blanket. Anyway this little visual stimuli seems to do the trick and by the time she puts the oil on herself shes ready for it. Then when i enter she actually wants me. Its quite radical the difference her mind makes.
I figure its a crutch, and she will soon tune into her body better. Another thing ive started doing is putting my hands on her more, more back and shoulder rubs, kisses through the day, random running my fingers through her hair, massing her scalp. Anything to get her out of her mind more. The last is especially good, it feels like zoning in exactly on her little worry wort center itself. She just loves it.
The other thing ive started doing is giving her nipples a firmish squeeze between thumb and finger when shes oiling me up, or when at other times when shes connecting with her concept of arousal. Maybe this will start to awaken some connection by association or something i dont know. Im just trying anything and everything that intuitively feels helpful. But i think she will get there all by herself.