happiness and frustration

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We have intercourse about every other day or maybe slightly less often these days. But about that much occasionally missing a day.

Today she woke up and didn't want to cuddle. She feels trapped that I always want to do that and she wants freedom to come downstairs and drink her tea and get on with her day.

Fundamentally that is the issue for me. Although we are in (her) post-O stage (day 10) so it's hard to say what's affected by that or what isn't.

I'm thinking, if she is having sex with me this often, why shouldn't she become interested in sex a little bit and maybe figure out how to be more present and aroused.

Why must she have no interest in sex and not want to make things better for herself?

I will discuss this with her after the post-O time is past. Meanwhile this is very difficult for me of course because I'm no good hiding my feelings. I can't easily detach from this the way I really should. I should just go about my existence and my day and be fully independent and not needy. But I don't.

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Orgasm

When is "post-O time", in your view? I'm confused by this. I've been documenting my and my wife's orgasms, and our moods, for a few months now, and I've yet to draw any firm conclusions. Nothing at all strikes me as obvious, in terms of mood swings following orgasm, except my own loss of interest in sex after ejaculation - which is hardly news. My mood is more variable than my wife's, and seems more affected by her orgasms than mine, but even that is conjecture, as there are so many other things going on in our lives that could account for any ups and downs.

One thing that might interest you is that throughout our married life I have always been the driving force behind wanting and initiating sex; but over the last few months, my 'week' (one week on, the next week off) has been noticeably lower key than my wife's. In fact, last week, which was 'hers', was packed with lovemaking, whereas this week, which is mine, has so far had none. A few kisses and cuddles, but that's all. This may be down to a wet dream I had over the weekend (the first for decades) but I think it has more to do with the growing absence of the fear I used to experience that if I didn't initiate sex whenever the opportunity arose, there wouldn't be any to enjoy.

So interesting~

My lover just left a bit ago and he and I had a nice morning time together~~he told me that even if all we had time for was to hold and caress each other, that would be okay with him~~he said it's the fact that I want him that makes him the happiest.

I'm getting the feeling from the two of you that is how you feel as well? To be wanted is enough?

Women are almost always *wanted* and so we don't often know what it feels like to not be wanted in that way (but it has happened to all of us at one time or another~~it's the worst feeling!).

Emerson, I know your wife loves you, but I understand that you want to *feel* loved, too. For me, it's less about orgasms/moods and more about opening my heart and being able to show my love in a sexual, bonding way. It's something I consciously work on because I know it's important for both of us. I hope you can find some balance together soon~~

Rachel you hit the nail on the head

I have told my wife this many times. I want to feel wanted. That's it. Welcomed in when I come in, and wanted the rest of the time. I know she loves me. She shows it all the time in little and big things. But I don't feel wanted really.

My biggest fear to be honest is a return to how things were before, but this time I'm not masturbating and not having any outlet sexually, nor am I getting the closeness that I've grown to love so much the past few months.

I do believe, though, that this will pass as the post-O cycle passes. It will be a lot better in a few days, I know it will. But then the greater issue of my fear and neediness will remain until it leaves me.

Sood

Your posting here is very interesting to me. The last part especially. But let me address the post-O observations, and then the last part of your post.

Post O observations

I notice my own moods are affected by my partner's orgasms. She's only had maybe one a month but each time things are a bit messed up and it isn't in my head.

During this time I may go through a period of seeing her flaws and not being nearly as attracted to her at all.

That isn't to say she hasn't had some really bad moods outside this post-O window. She had two really bad days but these were and are rare these days. Those were 3 or 4 weeks after O so they wouldn't presumably be affected by orgasm brain chemistry.

I also notice that she gets much more remote on certain days, and not that interested in physical closeness.

I have noted it down in a diary and a spreadsheet to kind of use as a way to monitor.

Anxiety about not having sex and closeness

This all started when I quit masturbating and went for looking entirely at my partner for my sexual and emotional needs as it were. And I can see how predictable this is.

My anxiety is entirely due I think to the fact that I am investing my entire sexual being in my wife's care in a sense. This puts her off as she wants to move away from me, naturally. And then I get even needier.

I tried to be "no pressure Emerson" but it is very, very difficult and most of the time I'm not sure how successful I am. This morning I was not successful.

Sood, I guess I am in the "fear" stage big time. I suppose if I can see my way to truly escaping the fear stage all will be much better.

Where do you see more

Where do you see more resistance: the fear of not being wanted or the potentialities if applying no pressure? Or are those intertwined for you?

Can you see her side and work toward making the relationship dynamics better from that vantage point? Maybe that would distract your seeking/needy part.

I don't know

I am glad that I think I can see her side quite clearly. It doesn't distract me. I think I have to really just decide to completely let go of all this really and truly. I'm not there yet. I'll wait until after 14 days post-O to have any such discussions. And when it happens to me, when "it" lets go, I will truly let go. That's how my mind works. But as I say, not there yet and not quite the time.

 

Honestly dude some people are

Honestly dude some people are just naturally less interested in sex, male or female especially later in life. Maybe switch over to other bonding practices, go down and drink tea w her and just have conversation with her, go for a hike! Talk about how she is doing!Females don't have that testosterone that makes us think w our dicks and pretty much always want sex even as we get older. Maybe karezza just Rly isn't her thing and she's doing it just to make you happy, that could possibly explain the resistance maybe she's not being straight up with you about karezza. Withhold from sex for a week or two then see if she wants it;) and in the meantime if your really sexually frustrated mo plain Jane or if she is down have her give you a hj or head. Humans have orgasms for a reason and trying to balance our physiology is what life is all about.

If i put myself in her shoes honestly She might just be getting pissed because you just want daily sex and she doesn't, could feel like your really nagging her and taking the spontaneity and eroticism out of it which is what makes sex fun! Maybe it's time to have that conversation that just lays out sex on the table. Ask her if karezza is working for her! Not just you. One size doesn't fit all and if she doesn't want to have you in her vagina daily you should respect that. Wink

good points Thegdub

she is getting pissed with me because I am pressuring her. And she doesn't mind sex but doesn't really love it. And doesn't really feel much these days.

I don't want to masturbate so I'm not going to do that. I'll continue trying to work things out. I think it's just a bit slower than I'd like but I think we're making progress.

We found the solution was

to always make sure there was a "just snuggle" day in between intercourse days. That seems to reset the nervous system a bit in a way that "expecting sex every day" doesn't.

In my experience, there will always be a sense of "not enough" off and on during the two weeks after orgasmic sex. I'm not saying everyone experiences this, just that we always seem to notice it.

What about just demonstrating your tail-wagging delight whenever she makes you feel in the least "wanted?" That's the best way to train a partner apparently:  http://www.reuniting.info/science/what_shamu_taught_me_about_happy_marriage Gary uses these ideas on me all the time. wink

yep this is good!

tail wagging delight indeed. I don't want to say she doesn't express her love. She does all the time. But I think she is a bit "inhibited" to use an old fashion word. I like the idea of paying more attention to positive reinforcement.

And the feeling of not enough -- have to observe if it's a post-O phenom or not. Not sure if it's just me all the time these days. I didn't actually feel this way before so perhaps it is.

Last night I just felt independent and in a no-care atttitude. She must have picked up on this loud and clear because she snuggled and invited me inside.

We had sex twice since I wrote this, actually, and it was great for me. This morning we didn't need any lubricant so she had some arousal already, which hasn't happened for a long time.

I focused on my own sensations and especially the root of my penis and felt this pleasure rise up all inside of me. I think the real point is to be independent and let things go. That is the true point post-O or not. And maybe this will suddenly get a lot easier for me.

The whole day-off thing is probably a really good idea though.

I agree with Marnia's

I agree with Marnia's suggestion about snuggle days. One of the suggestions in CPA that stood out really strongly to me was scheduling which days were intercourse days and which were just snuggle days.

With the last person I was sexually involved with, I was the one more into having sex (at least, I think I was...well, I was the one wanting everything...sigh). It wasn't a committed relationship (on his part) and nor was there any commitment to having sex (on his part), sleeping together, cuddling or anything. Sex would just happen spontaneously sometimes. But I was always wanting sex. Of course a big factor in that is that I was masturbating and orgasming all the time and super horny ALL the time. I was also anxious a lot. Part of that was knowing that he wasn't as into being in a relationship with me as I was with him. However, I think on a primal level, the spontaneity of our sexual relationship was making me anxious as well. The fact is that any time we were together, I was preparing myself for the possibility that we would have sex. As a result, my brain, on a biochemical level was always 'on guard' for the excitement that could be coming at any moment, and if it didn't, then my brain was disappointed. The result: a normally cheerful, optimistic, independent, compassionate person (me) was needy, demanding, anxious and feeling unwanted. I didn't make that connection to the spontaneity until I read CPA, but I knew as soon as I read it that this was part of what was going on. I can feel the anxiety in me just thinking about it now, and its been months since that was all happening.

this is so totally true for me

I can 100% relate. I think the solution of scheduling is a really, really good one. I think my brain is the same way -- and it makes things very awkward and needy on my end.

I have to say this needy feeling is one of the worst. I can so easily advise others and see it clearly even in myself. Letting it leave is a different story. I think the pain and emotion that I've been occasionally going through is part of that letting go process. The scheduling idea is something I'll discuss soon and we'll work something out on it I am sure.

Some words from Osho

I was just reading these passages and thought they might help you:

"Only in the beginning will it be difficult; soon it will become very easy. When there are two persons growing together, many times gaps will arise because people cannot keep pace with each other; everybody has his own speed, everybody has his own unique growth pattern. But if you love, you can wait a little till the other arrives, and then, hand in hand, you can move further."

"These are the real, difficult times~~when you come to know whether you love your partner, and whether your partner loves you, when these great gaps arise between you and you feel you are going far away from each other. These are the crucial moments, a fire test, when you should try to bring the other person who is left behind, closer to you. You should help the other person to be meditative.

The natural idea will be to bring yourself down so the other is not offended. That's an absolutely wrong attitude. You are not helping the other, you are hurting yourself. A good opportunity is being lost. When you could have pulled the other toward heights, you have descended yourself.

Don't be worried that the other will be offended. You make every effort to bring the other also to the same space, to the same meditative mind, and the other will be grateful, not offended. But these are not the moments when you should part from each other. These are the moments when you should make every effort to keep the contact with the other, with as much compassion as possible. Because if love cannot help the other in transforming the animal energies into higher spiritual energies, then your love is not love, not worth calling love."

I love this and sooo needed

I love this and sooo needed to read this today. This makes sense to me on a really deep level. Thank-you Rachel.

The part I don't really understand though is what he means by 'meditative mind' - I've read that in DR's book a few times, but I don't get it. (I know, I'm being lazy here, but I'm hoping to draw out yours and others different ways of explaining this, especially any tangible or experiential explanations of what that might mean.)

You're welcome~

This whole book I'm reading is just one "ah ha" moment after another for me, Zia, I think you'd love it, too. (if you get a chance, look at the reviews on Amazon to see what I mean~~the title is "Love, Freedom and Aloneness").

When Osho talks about the meditative mind he just means being having a mind that is focused with awareness of the present moment, filled with love for all things. He also says that once the fervor of hot sex subsides (and it should in order for a relationship to be taken to a higher level), only then can real love begin to show. It's in the quietness and the meditative aspect of sex that you can feel one another's souls and merge together like two people as one heartbeat.

Just saw this~

And love it (never realized the words that were contained within the word "nowhere")~~

"Life is from nowhere to nowhere, but it can be from nowhere to now here. That is all meditation is about: turning nowhere into now here." Osho

Word games can lead to funny

Word games can lead to funny results. For example, take "A road called someday leads to a town called nowhere." Essentially, that says procrastination gets one nowhere. If one mediates on that journey, "A road called someday leads to a town called now here." Essentially, that says that mediation brings one here so that procrastination isn't relevant. While sometimes true, that likely isn't always true. Although, the same can be said for the initial quote.

I don't think so~

I see it as not going back to the other's level (which, if you're patient, *could* eventually pull the other up)~~no guarantees, but better to stay where you are than go back to your old ways just to make the other feel more comfortable. You're not pulling them up by force, you can't. That's not possible. They get pulled up by being in your presence.

This is the way it worked for my Beloved and me. He wasn't really reading the literature (as I was, I was devouring it, although I would read to him sometimes), but he learned through my presence...and I was not willing to go back to the other ways (I cannot go back!)~~so if he wanted to be with me, he had to come along with me. He was one who thought the idea of not orgasming was kind of silly in the beginning, but now he is grateful to have learned this way of making love. But it all happened very naturally, I stayed where I wanted to be and he eventually came up with me. Admittedly, I worried a bit in the beginning that he would be happy with karezza as old ways die hard (and I cried a time or two when I allowed him to bring me to orgasm when I really didn't want to~~that is when I finally decided to stand my ground). It has all worked out very nicely, though, I must say.

always an inspiration Rachel, thank you

This is so on point.

I titled this thread Happiness and Frustration because there is a lot of both. A lot of happiness though.

This morning I was at the computer, and my wife came in and asked me if I wanted to snuggle. I wasn't going to ask her if she hadn't asked me. I was giving her space.

So she did ask. Then we were snuggling and I asked to touch her breasts. She laughed and I laughed and she let me kinda touch them. She said I'm always touching her breasts. I said, yeah and you know why. And she told me why. And I said, yes, the breasts are the key to arousal and I want you to have as much enjoyment as I am having.

Isn't this what Osho is saying?

I love this Osho quotation because it is how I feel and it gives me some additional feeling of reassurance of my direction.

Despite any impression I may have given to the contrary, I know my lovely Sparkles loves this way of living much more than what we used to have. And she knows that I get such great pleasure out of it. There are occasional indications that she is making some progress but I think just being steady and supportive and not making her feel weird or strange or anything is the way to go.

We laugh a lot. It's much more happiness than frustration most of the time.

That is so awesome

That she came to you and you didn't have to ask. Over time, your body will become a place for her to come to again and again to meditate and feel at peace. The old stresses that the expectations of conventional sex bring will melt away and she will see you as a source of comfort and happiness.

More often than not, *I* am the one who initiates our times together...he gives me beautiful space and I feel myself drawn back to him again and again. You will love it when that happens, Emerson (sounds like it is already happening).