Where to start..

Submitted by whitedeer on
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I don't really know where to start here. Apologies if this is disorganized.

I've been aware of karezza/ post orgasm principles thanks to stumbling across this amazing website a couple of years ago. I've been in my current relationship for three years.

My partner is really not into the idea of karezza. I can see how conventional sex affects our relationship and our lives. I get depressed and have a really hard time academically (still in college). He tends to get more easily frustrated and have a harder time concentrating at work. Normal life 'stuff' gets more overwhelming for both of us. Over a year ago we tried to give karezza more of a try. I remember what it was like to actually have energy for life. I can't really fathom that right now.

The thing is that when we were "trying" karezza, I was the only one that wanted it, and it felt like a constant battle. I was a gatekeeper during the act, with him driving to get to that goal of orgasm. And then he would shut down sex entirely for a while, going off to use porn etc. We would go a couple of months without it. I broke up with him 3 times because we were so sexually incompatible. We always got back together somehow. We were both thinner, practicing yoga, in really great shape and eating healthy. (seemingly without effort, almost magnetically/gravitationally) Even though it was not perfect karezza that we practiced, and there was tension/lots of stress about it, it made a huge difference in our bodies and energy levels. Now we lay around all day and eat horrible food and can barely get basic household tasks done.

The last time we got back together, I had no more energy to fight. I gave up any talk of karezza entirely. Conventional sex has been all it's been for a year now, and I don't know what to do. I told him a few days ago that I just want to avoid orgasm myself for a few weeks to see if it helps me academically. I am trying to avoid pressuring him to avoid that 'war' feeling coming back. I think this feels more positive than all the attempts I made to pressure him and force him to do what I wanted regardless. The problem is, it's really hard to not get too 'into things' if he is not on board at all. Agh. This is basically the place I've been in for the last year. At this point I'm not even looking for the bliss/magnetism/exchange of love some of you describe experiencing with karezza, I just want to get off the orgasm roller coaster/hell without making the sexual aspect of our relationship fraught with tension (again) over the conflict around this issue.

P.S. - Thank you so much for putting this information out there. I have been lurking on this website for two years and even though I'm not practicing this 'properly' at all, it shines a light on so much of life for me. I never would have remotely guessed there was a post orgasm cycle that affected people so dramatically in all these different ways unless I had found this website. So thank you, so much.

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Hi whitedeer

I'm sorry that you are having the severe struggles that you are. Karezza is so easy when both partners are on the same wavelength, or at least want to work toward being in harmony. The core of any good relationship is mutual respect. Below is the link to a book on respect that has helped my wife and I and several other people that I've shared it with. I believe it could possibly give you some clarity regarding your relationship.

http://www.amazon.com/Respect-Me-Rules-Michael-Shelly-Marshall/dp/159955...

I was fortunate to be able to set good boundaries with my wife very early in our relationship, and our Karezza journey has been very harmonious and fulfilling.

I hope that someone else on the forum can give you some insight about your difficulties from their own journey.

Thank you!

Thanks blissed! The book looks really helpful. I'll look at that. Really appreciate the input! I find your point about respect extremely relevant. Definitely a lot to think about.

I guess on a random note - The whole karezza/post orgasm cycle thing clicked for me 8 months into our relationship, when the honeymoon seemed to initially be wearing off. I was really enthusiastic at first about it, because I thought I'd found something that would prevent the bond between us from crumbling further. I was utterly shocked that he wasn't enthused with me! And we had been almost completely similar in our tastes and preferences and outlooks on life and spirituality before this, so it really came as a surprise to not be able to communicate with him about this.

Anyway thank you again for the reply! I have wanted to write something here for a long time.

It's a paradigm shift

which implies that some people won't understand it just by explaining it using words, no matter how hard you try. Words typically only mean something when they describe an experience that's similar to one we've already had. Karezza is not like any experience I had had before, so I would not have understood it from words alone. In fact, the only reason I was even interested in trying Karezza was as a solution to the problem of how to continue to have sex with my wife while successfully rebooting from porn. Even then, I thought the idea of sex minus the orgasm was nuts, but I was determined to be rid of porn and wasn't excited about the prospect of 3 months without any sexual connection, so I was willing to give it a try. So although I did try it (and have not looked back since), my reasons were still largely selfish at that time. I expected Karezza to be this technique I could use to get by for a few months while I was recovering from PIED. Imagine my surprise when we discovered it was so much more than that!

It doesn't surprise me that he would resist the idea. Most guys are used to a steady diet of orgasms; with a partner, through self-stimulation, etc. So much so, that the idea of sex without orgasm can sound pretty uninspiring. But what I didn't realize was that before Karezza, my wife wasn't enjoying sex with me at all, she was just going along for the ride to keep the peace. I was too selfish at that time to notice, as long as I was "getting some". I had no idea what I was really missing in terms of having a real connection with her where she was relaxed, feeling safe and loved, and was fully available and engaged in the connection. What we have now is 100 x better than before. It's even better than when we were first dating!

I wish I had an easy answer for how to convince someone they should give Karezza a try. I think it is the single best sex / relationship "hack" out there, but sadly most people don't know about it, and they aren't hearing much about it from mainstream media sources like news, tv, etc.

Forget about trying to convince him it's a good idea and see if you can get him interested in trying it as an experiment. He's had it his way, would it be so hard for him to give you your way for 3 weeks? If he could let go of getting his way for a few weeks and experience Karezza (you would have to lead) for 3 weeks, then at least he would have some experience to connect to the words. Good luck!

Definitely.

It is really hard for me to communicate with him about this topic, because it is such huge reversal in thinking, and he is so locked into that cycle! Also I cannot make him want to get out of it, and I can't make him see that orgasm is a problem. Since he is in that 'black hole' state I think anything I would suggest, karezza or otherwise, he would reject because his brain is shouting that I am awful and therefore my idea/anything I say is awful much less taking away that precious orgasm. Honestly three weeks of a break sounds overwhelming to him, I can tell. I've tried to bring that up offhandedly. The deeper hole he's in the harder it is to reach him about this. And I think on top of all that, there's deep sensitivity and shame and guilt and other strong emotions around porn/orgasm in general for him. I don't want to come off as shaming him. And the fact that most of society thinks orgasms are great, doesn't help. (I think he'd like to think I've turned into some sort of puritan..) I try to point out scientific research in an appeal to male thinking style but he doesn't want to hear it.

I've kind've come to a spot where I'm almost just going to do it myself and not talk to him directly about it because he seems to clam/tense up about it completely. If I do the karezza bonding/exchange stuff without initially telling him that's what I'm doing and his cognitive freak out engaging, my hope is that we could sort've ease into it more naturally. That's the only way I can think of that gets past the.. "sentry/fight or flight response" I seem to provoke in him, when I bring up any mention of stopping orgasm. If I can do some natural nonverbal exchanges with him for a while and not have conventional sex at least from my end, maybe the 'sentry' in him will calm down a little bit and relax to the point where I can speak to him about a 3 week experiment or compromise and it won't sound quite as appalling to him! Or he will at least be reasonable. Thank you all for the suggestions! I really appreciate it!

Edited to add - I don't want this to come off as if he's some sort of awful person. He has been a caring, hard working, intelligent guy outside this one sticking point. We have a lot in common, enjoy shared interests, hobbies and general worldview, political/spiritual etc. We have had a lot of fun together hiking in nature and walking our dogs. We both get a feeling of spiritual wholeness and peace in nature. I respect and love him as a person, no matter what happens. Anyway thank you again for all of your ideas/ help! I can't tell you what a relief it is to just talk with others about karezza, after being at loggerheads for so long about it.

Keep on!

Hi Whitedeer! My situation is somewhat similar to yours; my man is receptive to the truth of the post-orgasmic cycle but somehow not willing yet or able to commit to a different path. (And it has taken me a long time to realize that a lot of the time I'm stumbling him/part of the problem because of my own bad habits/patterns/perceptions.)

I have found that by forgoing my own orgasms, my energy is more steady and stable, and I can get things done. I can be much more loving toward him, too. It's totally valid for you to opt out of orgasms for a while. It's like taking off the training wheels; expect to fall a lot while you're learning. Both of you have habits and patterns and lizard brains that will tend to derail you. But every "mistake" is also a learning experience.

I think it's very powerful just to understand the post-orgasm cycle. It helps me to stay generous and loving toward him, and sometimes after I have an orgasm I know to tune out the (eerily predictable) thoughts that he doesn't really love me, that I should leave him, etc.

There is also a lot of power in the bonding activities, which don't have to be a big deal. I give him loving energy by looking in his eyes and smiling. We hold hands. We make a point of touching while drifting off to sleep. This kind of small stuff pays into your "love bank" and adds up. I feel that this "little stuff" is keeping us together even though we're not exactly a karezza couple yet.

Over time, I trust that these small, daily bonding exchanges are changing the dynamic in our relationship. I think that more and more he associates me with good, cuddly feelings instead of subconsciously seeing me as the source of his post-orgasm unease.

Thanks!

What you're saying sounds really familiar! It's weird, I was just thinking about this today!

I think where I've gotten stuck in the past is honestly being too controlling and making too big of a deal out of "doing karezza," as a thing separate to other bonding activity, whereas like you're talking about, just skin to skin contact is that bonding stuff. (not karezza itself but that glue..)

At first, after an orgasm, it feels bumpy, fake, awkward, uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like I can't get a sentence out right. Then after a while it falls back into a comfortable groove and I find he pulls me to him and spontaneously tells me he loves me, and touches my skin in a non sexual way, which is awesome. We feel genuinely close again. If I think about the process too much it doesn't flow, but after a while it just spontaneously happens. (If I don't orgasm and he does, I notice I am definitely more compassionate to his fallout, for sure!)

The problem for me is more in the bedroom I guess, but this is still a journey and I am still really glad I am on it and so so glad I at least understand how this post orgasm cycle works!! Just getting farther out from my own orgasm and having more energy for concentrating on studying is a relief. (sometimes I wonder how anyone gets anything done in the world halfway sane not knowing about this...) I feel more positive and that really helps.

The current status for me is that he basically genuinely enjoys hot sex, (most people do, ha) still, and doesn't understand what karezza is about. I have talked about a three week trial for us both, but he is extremely reluctant. I am so far able to hold back from having my own orgasm with him. It's basically diet conventional sex right now. It is less hot for him, and still a bit "warm" for me, which is going to be emotionally frustrating for both of us eventually? There is less "fallout" than total regular hot sex with me going along with him. I am trying to sort of engage in a loving but passive way. I think my main fear/ hang up about this, is that most of society would think I was a terrible girlfriend, suddenly going 'frigid' on him or something, but I'm actually really attempting the opposite. I'm trying to actually relax and open up and slow down and be really truly loving. It totally goes against what (I feel like) society tells us we are supposed to do as girlfriends, and what partners should expect from each other sexually. It is also really difficult to communicate that to someone so steeped in modern Western sexual culture. I think he feels I'm just becoming a prude/repressing my latent sexuality due to past trauma. I'm not!! I'm trying to be open/loving! Sigh.

Anyway thanks for listening! I'm actually in a really happy/good place, so if it sounds like I am complaining - I'm not. I'm not discouraged. I am happily going forward, and learning more and more about the amazing power of bonding behaviors and orgasm cycles and all this amazing stuff as I go. Thanks!

"diet conventional sex"

"diet conventional sex"
That's a good description.

I hear you on the cultural programming. Strange but true that "being boring in bed" feels... good. All the time I'm worrying that he must want more excitement, but what I want to explore is to slow down, tune in, and be fully present and receptive on a deeper level.

Generally it seems to me that

Generally it seems to me that this style of lovemaking is much more intuitive for women. I have felt similar frustrations to you in the past when I attempted to try this. I can easily say that the best sex of my life has been karezza, and I have had a lot of incredibly enjoyable passionate orgasm-driven sex. Still, that orgasm-driven sex NEVER made me feel that energetically he was coming from such a loving space that I could truly truly receive him, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. When all of those elements are combined, the bliss is nutz! Literally my husbands penis extended up into my third eye. I was seeing visions of him, boholding him and his potential. Why on earth we didn't continue to make love like this all our days from that point on is a mystery. Well there are a few explanations - namely, humans' egos can get quite afraid of being liberated and blissed out, becuase it dissolves all these judgements and mental structures that give us some semblance of orientation. On the other hand, there is this other level of orientation and coherence that arises from relaxation that I believe is an actually more original state of being, but rarely accessed because it dissolves ego structures. Another explanation for all this is that different individuals have very different levels of sensitivity and attunement to more subtle but profound energies. I have always been very sensitive and in some aspects of my life this makes things more challenging so I have learned to shut that off at times. But truly being safe and cherished in that sensitive/vulnerable space is so ecstatic.

I'm a mother now and frankly, my top priority is not my sex life but regaining natural sleep cycles. Conventional sex in the context of two years of total exhaustion is hardly hot. Women are not less erotic than men, they are more exhausted, underpaid, and overworked. This leads to resentment of the heart, which shuts down sex.

I used to post here in this forum years ago and I'm glad I came back to peek inside. Thanks for sharing your authentic voice whitedeer. You know that we're in a time where female leadership is more and more crucial, right? It sounds to me that part of the reason it may be hard to make headway in your situation is that you have some lingering cultural judgements about being "frigid" or "prude." Eventhough in your heart of hearts you know that is not what you are, there is this annoying layer of cultural programming that is not so easily rid of. I have those judgements too, and now that my body has birthed and been stretched out to give life to another being, I have a whole new host of self-judgements about my body. I'm quite clear that more orgasm-driven sex is not going to do a lot to help with the judgement aspect of myself. And given how worn out I am, I can't really pretend any more that conventional sex has much to offer when I know something better is to be had.

It has been good to revisit this community. Thanks for the reminder that our sexual ecstacy is important to reclaim.

:)

Thank you for your beautiful, wonderful comment! I am looking forward to the time when this way of thinking is mainstream! Glad to know I am definitely not the only one who thought this was amazing, awesome, insanely great way of doing things and it was one-sided! Ha. I always thought of myself as a very sensual, sex positive person too! I never ever had trouble orgasming with a partner(which I laughed about when starting to try this method out..). I think the fact that I always was so 'sex-positive/sensual' etc etc is probably why I still have a bit of a hangup residually. Going against the old routine must be repressive puritanism! Even though I KNOW it isn't. I have to just remember this is real sex positivity. :)

I am trying really hard not to blame my partner for his negative response to karezza and keep my head up and just keep doing what I want/need to do anyway. I am confused right now as to what's going on between us, as I am actively working not to orgasm, and he is continuing to orgasm. I am trying to trust that if I just keep going in the right general direction things will work out alright.

Thank you again for your amazing insightful comment! It really does help a lot! :)

Thanks for sharing your

Thanks for sharing your insights, hotspring. For me, it is always great to read the words of a thoughtful, observant wife on Karezza, spirituality, etc.

I, too, look forward to seeing women regain their rightful co-leadership seat and our world moving to a better place; my wife and I were just chatting about that this morning.

On my nightstand to read is Marija Gimbutas', 'The Civilization of the Goddess: The World of Old Europe.' I just finished Riane Eisler's, 'The Chalice and the Blade.' It is clear to me that big chunks of our world were much different -- e.g., women in co-leadership roles, peaceable societies -- before the Indo-European (Kurgan) sweep of Europe and Asia.

We have lived differently, and better. It will be so again.