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Past the two-week mark
We're both past the two week mark now.
We have not made it to exchange two yet because we have been very busy and it is his turn to lead the exchange. Last night he tried to read the exchange so as to lead it but he didn't understand it and it was almost 1am so we decided to wait for another time. I suggested we just fall asleep cuddling with my hand on him but both of our bodies are so messed up (scoliosis, whiplash), we can't seem to fall asleep connecting in a position that is comfortable for both of us. Finally we just gave up. Not much seems to be working or flowing on any level in our interactions.
It was flowing a bit better after the first exchange and the following two nights after. We did the hand on heart exchange those nights and it felt good and confirming for both.
Then we went to a three day sacred music festival on the Oregon Coast for my birthday. I made a point to hang out with him, not flirt with others, and dance with him. I feel I'm very expressive and reach out to him but he just waits around, very passive, perhaps because he has been rejected so many times and is feeling paralyzed, doesn't know how to reach out to me. I feel sorry for him but don't want this to be the foundation of our interactions. I seem to feel a huge amount of responsibility towards him and at the same time resent it. Feel guilty if I go off and have fun alone. Usually hang out out of a sense of obligation. This pattern feels pretty dull and cramped.
I don't feel turned on by him, nor do I feel like a partner of his, more like a sister.
I'm sorry to anyone if this letter and my posts of late have been comprised of a lot of negativity or complaining or ciriticism. I just don't know how to move through these blockages or even if I should and this is where I am at in my journey right now.
We are living together and "trying to work it out." Some part of me seems to think this whole thing is doomed already - if there were an inherent spark or foundation of attraction, why would we be needing to "work on it" so soon? Yes, because we have a lot of history. And we've both become accustomed to our indipendence.
I'm trying to see how I might sabotage myself. How I frame a situation in terms that make it impossible for me to accept a way of relating as worthwhile.
One way that I sabotage myself is that I am deathly afraid of just ending up with someone out of circumstance. So, right now he is living with me, has no other home, and I am feeling like he just "landed" in my space eventhough I invited him and was excited before. I seem to get very posessive of my space and dread having a relationship that isn't both intentional and obviously working in some inherent way.
Is the idea that it needs to have an inherent spark some vestige of a romanticized notion of love? Well, I want love. I want more than "making" things work, as though that were even possible. I also want to be intrigued.
I am learning that what really turns me on is someone's personality, how they live their life. That's what makes me want to be physical with them, or not - as the case may be. It seems we just sit in the house on our computers. A basically dull existence. I am probably projecting my own dissatisfaction at the boredom of my desk life onto him.
Before he came, I thought, "I value him because he is warm, available." Now he's too warm, too available.
So, basically I am confused and pretty much a wreck. Nevertheless I am relieved to finally be 30.
- hotspring's blog
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Comments
Congrats on turning 30!
Lots of hugs and support for you, also.
The only thing I can say is that maybe you know somewhere in your heart, exactly how much you want this to work. I think most of us readers have somehow absorbed the feeling that you rather stubbornly really want this to work out, which is why we are still encouraging you. Although it might seem like an insane basis for a relationship, I think that may be a stronger position than you know.
If you think you need a kick in the butt, I know someone who is really good at delivering that
Thanks Mitsiky. I think
Thanks Mitsiky.
I think I'm still pursuing this, "trying to make it work" because 1) i was together with goldenheart longer than anyone, ie, it has worked with him more than with anyone, so our heartstrings and karma are already tied 2) he has certain qualities that I enjoy and have encountered much less in other men: warmth, a great attitude, and patience 3) I'm open to being in a partnership now and he has shown up, which is either uncanny timing, coincidence, fate, or all three combined, 4) he loves the land I love and I have a hard time finding a man in the city who wants to live in the boonies with me, 5) we conceived together at a bad time years ago and being a family together could bring that unfortunate incident full circle, and 6) he's just a really sweet guy, and I would like to think that I want to be with a guy who's basically sweet more than I'd like to be with a self-absorbed stud, but maybe there's something inbetween?
Maybe this isn't enough to base a partnership on. Any kick in the butt is welcome, from anyone, please.
I'm wondering if I'm the
"butt-kicker" in question.
Just in case, I asked the oracle if "Hotspring should stick with this guy?" And I got, "STAY FOCUSED ON THE BUSINESS AT HAND."
I've been there, where you are, Dear Hotspring, and it's painful. However, I sense that your higher guidance is trying to show you something. That can be annoying, when you want to get on with your life and plan a family. The only wisdom I can offer is that you may need to *see* something unexpected before you're ready for that step. Would you be willing to give your situation a few months, and not project onto the future during that time?
Set a point...say the end of the year...by which you will "take action your way," if you aren't feeling like you're in the flow. Meanwhile, give it all you've got, with complete faith in the Divine, and without analyzing. Treat it as a spiritual practice. Pretend your inner guru is asking you to do weird stuff, just to improve your self-discipline and practice aligning your will with the Divine. (I once did this myself, just to see where it would lead. It has been a most unexpected, but fascinating journey.
)
Trust that you may be learning something totally unexpected. It's the nature of growth that the insights that can show us the most are in areas where we have a blind spot we didn't even know existed.
Your energy, your insight, and your intelligence are amazing. Yet, suppose that to do your life's work you need another quality or two. I know in my case I needed to learn patience, and how to allow the Divine to direct my life. This did not come easily.
I've also been giving a lot of thought to Daniel Lord Smail's book about "neurohistory," and the idea that we have all been seeking constant stimulation through mood-altering activities and substances...in an accelerating pattern since civilization began (since we left hunting and gathering about 10,000 years ago). Reliance on external stimulation has become such a habit that we all regard it as normal. But, interestingly, this habit skyrocketed in the 18th century when we left the land for the cities. It's actually not progress, as you've often pointed out.
I now see it as an attempt at self-medication. We lost our tribes, and we're hurtin'. I think the Divine is trying to show us how to use our intimate relationship as a source of the touch, trusted companionship and so forth that we once got from our tribes. (While in tribes, sex was just one aspect of life, and mostly connected to fertilization. Our wellbeing came from our daily interactions with others.) I suspect, but can't prove, that when we learn to connect safely and deeply with a partner for something other than fertilization, we may find that our relationships are a path to rapid spiritual growth. In short, this saga may be headed somewhere good, even though it has been painful for a long time. I'm intrigued by all the esoteric materials about re-creating the Divine Androgyne using the practice of sacred sexuality. There could be a big reshuffling of pieces going on here.
Meanwhile, our boredom and restlessness and constant search for the next stimulation has made it challenging for us to find the subtle pleasures in daily life. Since GH doesn't offer intense stimulation (for the moment), maybe he's in your life to help you practice finding contentment in the ordinary. Once you don't *need* constant stimulation to feel less irritable, you're free to chart your own course in life...you're no longer attached to externals, or dependent on them for your happiness.
I don't know if this insight is relevant to your learning curve or not. I share it just because of some of the things you said in your post about feeling restless.
*sigh* I tried to make the Exchanges so easy (this time) that people could at least do the "Yin" exercise no matter how tired they are. The idea is not to miss any nights (except the odd one now and again), so you don't put off intercourse for too long. They can be done any time during the day or night, as you know.
Let me know if you want the rest of 'em. They're ready to go to the editor now.
Hehe!
Now, why would you be wondering that, Marnia?
Hotspring, the one thing I want to say is don't make it too hard. Most of your "problems" can't be solved by effort because they're not actually problems. You simply have to wait around long enough for spontaneous adaptation to occur. It's like when I was convinced I couldn't sleep with J because he snored. I wanted him to solve his "snoring problem," but he never did...I just learned to wear ear plugs and to become inured to it. Sure, if he found a way to stop it would be great, but it's not as big a deal as I thought it was.
Think of it like culture shock. At first there's a phase of temporary enchantment. Then it gets really hard and frustrating, you feel homesick, you want to be somewhere else, everything is just a little bit wrong. But then gradually, gradually you adapt, until you wake up one day and find your new location is almost home to you now. If you bail out too soon, you never get to witness the results of this process.
One thing I've discovered is that if you're a serious challenge-lover like myself, it's actually easier to try to surmount actual large challenges than it is to endure small things that seem too easy. Like when I went on retreat in France, they kept just asking us to breathe and smile. It almost killed me. I had to slow myself down about 500% just to deal with it without exploding...but eventually it happened. So be patient!
Good luck on your courageous journey!
I think you pretty much
I think you pretty much nailed it, Marnia. I took a walk after replying to Mitsiky's post and realized there is a deeper reason why I am trying this with GH besides the abovementioned reasons. The main reason is that I sense pretty strongly that most times when I want to break up with a guy, it is precisely because of a need for entertainment, stimulation, etc., to ease the restlessness, as Marnia pointed out very well. That's what I was trying to get at in pointing out that I'm aware I have a saboteur (or a few). It would be easy to follow the saboteur for more stimulation, but I would find myself in the same situation over and over again. I do sense that something else is available to me and to humans, and I'm not sure if that will be something I experience with Goldenheart or not, but I do know that I want to expdrience a deeper connection that is not based only on pushing the edge, instead is based more on opening to the edge that is always here. I want to see through my illusions. If I'm not able to free myself of them, I at least want to be able to identify them when they are flaring up. And through this whole thing, the uneasines and lack of connection, I've had an unsettling sense that I'm not really looking past my initial fears or aversions at all. Rather, I've just been complaining a lot recently. I've really not been very courageous.
More than my fear of ending up with someone out of default is my fear that I could so easily pass love by because of simple pettiness or inability to see what was before me.
These two fears seem to have me suspended pretty nicely in apprehension and inaction.
So thanks for listening everyone, I'll try to plug forward.
I like that the idea is to do one exchange after another so as to get to intercourse sooner rather than later. My mind has been totally distracted with sex fantasies with others of late. It's rearing its head strong! I suppose I've come this far, might as well forge ahead. Bear with me, everyone, I'll try not to indulge too much negativity as my whole nervous system is reconfigured, but from the looks of things it seems there might be quite a bit of stuggle and strife involved.
So, onwards and forwards . . . please send further chapters.
Hey Marnia, could you send
Hey Marnia, could you send us further chapters? We're done with three. Many thanks.
It Never Ceases
to amaze me how our partners serve to teach us valuable lessons. I applaud your courage to see the element of sabotage in your thoughts and feelings as I have also gained a keen appreciation how so many difficult things in my psyche end up projected in uncomfortable feelings that I have towards my partner.
As you continue to stay fully present with GH and learn to quiet your "critical inner voice" I believe you will find more clarity about the lessons before you.
Your intelligence and keen intuition will be powerful guides to you on this journey. Keep up the wonderful journaling as it brings forth a wealth of insight for us all.
Richard
Don't worry about the "negativity"
Your musings about your relationship with Goldenheart are quite interesting to me because I see some of the same things of which you speak in my own relationship. Specifically, I have a strong desire to give and receive physical touch, while my wife wants nothing of the sort. Unfortunately, I don't think she is capable of analyzing her own thoughts and feelings the way you do. So, your writings give me a window into what might be going on in my wife's head, and it will be interesting to see how you resolve this issue of physical touch with your partner.
Another similarity is that I am quiet and nonconfrontational, like GH and his father. "Small talk" and discussions about things that don't interest me just drive me up the wall. Marnia counseled me that I should think of such talk from my wife as "foreplay" for her. Well, I wish I had had that advice 20 years ago. It hasn't worked that way recently.
You said, in another thread,
(No, not boring at all!) I abhor getting into heated arguments and then feeling angry for days afterward.
You mentioned that GH doesn't give you much intellectual stimulation. I could say the same about Zoe, but in my case I don't mind, that was never a requirement for me. I can get all the intellectual stimulation I want from my work and my hobbies.
Lancer mentioned that he would like a relationship where he can go home and find... serenity. I very much understand and want the same thing. Unfortunately I haven't gotten much of that.
So anyways, Hotspring, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us. Please continue to do so, regardless of whether you think they are "positive" or "negative".
By the way...
Have you shared all those same thoughts with Goldenheart? (You previously mentioned giving him kissing lessons. Good for you!) I can understand how you might hesitate to "complain" about attributes that (you think) he can't change. Doing so (you might think) would just hurt his feelings and not accomplish anything. I suggest that there are ways to express your frustrations without hurting his feelings, and maybe something good might come of it.
- Next time you feel frustrated by his indecisiveness (for example), simply tell him, in a matter-of-fact way, that when he acts indecisively, you start feeling frustrated. You are simply stating a fact. You aren't saying he's a defective person because he's behaving indecisively.
- You could ask him if he could make up his mind about the present decision. Who knows, maybe he can. You won't know until you ask.
- If you don't tell him about your frustration, he'll never know. And if you just let the frustration gnaw at you and you eventually break up because of it, do you imagine his feelings won't be hurt then?! At least give the guy a chance to change, if he can. You would be doing both of you a favor.
- It's also possible that, simply by expressing your thoughts and feelings, the indecisiveness (or whatever) may become less important to you.
Good luck!
Thanks for your suggestions,
Thanks for your suggestions, curious fellow. I have used some nonviolent communication with him: making observations, stating my feelings, making specific requests. Actually, i think that the problem here is not that I don't communicate, but rather that I am too explicit. I'm learning that he needs to be communicated with in a physical way. Yes, he may prefer tranquility over other states, whereas I prefer challenge. I seem to like problem-solving and it does dawn on me from time to time that many of my so-called problems might just be entertainments of a sort.
GH told me that he had a disconcerting dream. He dreamt that his right hand had been torn off in an accident and a new one, someone else's hand, had been temporarily stitched onto his arm. He was waiting to have the operation to get his real hand back, which he had found and kept after the accident. But the longer he waited the more it seemed the date for the surgery would always get pushed further away. He awoke with a strange feeling in his right hand.
Easier done than said
Some things are easier to explain by demonstration than by words. Such as how you like to be kissed. Other things, such as frustration over indecisiveness (if that's really a problem) might be more easily explained with words.
Have you mentioned this frustration to him?
I'm somewhat confused and unclear about what you want from him - and perhaps he is confused and "paralyzed" as well.
You say (or actually, imply) that you want him to "reach out" to you. Yet in other posts you complain about too much reaching out, or the wrong kind of reaching out. For example:
Do you see how he might be getting mixed messages? He has reached out to you, in the way that seems natural to him, and perhaps you rejected his advances, either explicitly and verbally, or perhaps somewhat unintentionally and nonverbally, as by just pulling away from him, or turning your back to him, etc. So, he might be "leaving you alone", "giving you some space", etc., thinking that that's what you want.
I'm just guessing (please forgive me if I'm way off base) that you aren't completely clear in your own mind what you want from him. In which case, is it any wonder that he is confused and paralyzed?
By the way, if you try to explain to him (or have tried to explain) that you want him to reach out to you more, DON'T expect him to be able to explain back to you, at normal conversational speeds, about why he might be confused or unable to comply with your request. I think most men have difficulty explaining their feelings and thought processes, much more so than women. Note, for example, a recent post of mine where I reported that I had told my wife how I had enjoyed an earlier conversation. Note that I made that remark to my wife several minutes after the earlier conversation had ended. It just takes a very long time for such thoughts to percolate through our brains and turn into words.
Good points all, curious
Good points all, curious fellow.
What I want is an organic dynamic of exchange. When I say he does not reach out, I mean that in our everyday interactions (having a conversation, making decisions), he generally doesn't take initiative. He pretty much goes with the flow. He is accomodating. He doesn't spontanously share experiences or thoughts. He doesn't engage me in that way. When I say I reach out to him, I guess it's more verbally than anything. It's through communication and sharing of personality that I get turned on.
Physically, he takes more initiative, but latches on so hard that I don't feel there's much breathing room, ie, room for exchange. There's a quality to his touch that is like holding on for dear life, like he is revelling in finally arriving "home" rather than actually interacting with me. I've been turned on by men before who were very physical and who did not engage me much intellectually, but whose touch was more of an exchange rather than an arrival.
Much clearer
Now that you've explained that by "reaching out" you meant verbally, what you've said previously makes more sense and doesn't seem so self-contradictory.
It now seems there are two separate problems:
1. There is a mismatch of desired communication levels. You want more communication from GH than he tends to put out naturally. (And it's also possible he feels like you talk too much.)
There is a similar tension in my own relationship. When we first got married, Zoe often wondered if I was mad at her because I was so quiet. I was not mad at all! I was just lost in my own thoughts, and wasn't in the habit of sharing my thoughts with others. At the same time, I would sometimes get exasperated when she would talk about things of no interest to me, such as telling me the plot of a movie she had seen, in excruciating detail, or talking about the social lives of singers or movie stars.
I don't have any really good solution to offer. I think Zoe gradually got used to my quietness. And I gradually became a little more communicative. I participated in the Toastmasters communication and leadership program (toastmasters.org) which helped me a lot. I've heard that 12-step programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous or Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous also help people to "open up" and share their thoughts and feelings with others.
I've found the Love Busters book by Dr. Willard Harley (available in many bookstores) to be inspirational in many ways. (Thanks to both Mitsiky and Richard for recommending the marriagebuilders.com site, which promotes the book. One of these days I may write a review of that book. It's awesome!) Chapter 6 encourages partners to communicate more - a LOT more. Maybe you (HS) could have GH read that chapter.
It also occurs to me that sometimes I start to say something to Zoe, but before I can open my mouth, Zoe is already talking about something else. So I put off saying whatever I was going to say, and eventually forget it. And I think I've also felt, during some of those times when we were on good terms with each other, that since Zoe seemed willing to do all the talking, that there was no need for me to say anything. So, this might be an interesting experiment for you to try, Hotspring: Try being as quiet as you possibly can. Just say the minimum needed to be friendly or convey essential information. ("Dinner's ready!", etc.) See if he talks a little more to fill the void. You could also try some questions to get him to talk. "How was your day today?" "I ran into Joe" "Oh, who is he?" "Why was he in town?" But don't pressure him to talk. If he doesn't want to talk, let him enjoy the silence. You can take that opportunity to examine how the silence affects you. Does it make you uncomfortable to be with someone in silence?
2. The other problem is that you don't like some of the ways GH touches you. Were the kissing lessons effective? That is, did you notice an improvement in the way he kisses you? If so, maybe you can give him touching lessons. (You could also ask him if he is satisfied with the way you touch him. Give him an opportunity to teach you also. That way, it will seem more fair and balanced - it's not just you demanding that he change.)
Good luck!!
I'm glad you're seeing some
I'm glad you're seeing some paralells between your relationship with Zoe and mine with GH, but it seems there are also some big differences as well. My mother is a lot like Zoe in that she talks constantly in great detail about all manner of stuff without really checking in to see if others are even interested. I don't feel like I do this. I don't like small talk, and I don't like to fill space unnecessarily. But there are a lot of things I'm interested in that I like to share, especially research, and discuss how it affects our own lives. So I'm not looking for someone to talk at (otherwise I'd be quite satisfied already!). I can also be quiet for long periods of time (times when I'm thinking about something I don't think GH will be particularly interested in). He has said that he feels uncomfortable when we are quiet for long periods of time, whereas I feel very comfortable in this silence. So he often talks just to fill this uncomfortable space, which for me is a very boring conversation, because there's nothing he really wants to say.
As far as his touch goes, I think he's just in a particularly vulnerable and insecure space right now and this is coming across in his manner of touch (I didn't have an aversion to his touch when we were together in the past). I can feel compassion for him because I know firsthand how hard it is to communicate in a language that is not your own, and how hard to be independent in a new place where you have no connections. So I can see where he is coming from.
Yesterday he took a job doing lighting for a TV ad, got up at 5am in the morning, and was gone when I woke up. It was so nice to have the morning to myself. This morning he left again to finish the job, and last night he just rolled over and went to sleep, without any attempt at reaching out to me. It caused me to reach over to him and hold him as he went to sleep, because I wasn't feeling pushed into a corner. So yes there's a lot to be said about how odd and fragile that balance is. Perhaps I just need to feel like he's not always so over-available so I can have the joy of reaching out physically a bit.
Sometimes when he lies down next to me and is turned on, he tries to turn me on extremely subtly - by undulating his hips ever so slightly and lightly caressing me. Its a very tentative sort of touching, like he's trying to get me turned on but doesn't know how. There's nothing worse than the feeling that someone is trying to gently convince you into a feeling. It makes me obstinantly stubborn. What would work better for me would be if he would just enthusiastically come over and grab me in a big embrace and give me a confident kiss and express himself as he feels rather than trying to slip it in on the sly. Yes, I'm looking for confidence more than anything else.
And maybe, as sood has pointed out, women like more verbal confirmation. It wouldn't hurt if he would just say, "Baby, I just want to hold you; I want to make love to you, I want you." That would be harder to resist.
Thanks for the further clarifications
You're right, I had misunderstood some things about your communication habits. Actually, it sounds like you communicate a lot like I do... I can say a LOT if it's about something that interests me, and I think the other person would be interested.
And, like GH, despite my "quietness", I used to get uncomfortable if I was with someone and there was a lot of silence. I once went on a blind date with someone who I didn't find very attractive or interesting. Just to be polite, I made a tremendous effort to talk about anything I could think of. I bored myself to death, and I must have bored her, too. After a few hours of that, the poor girl literally ran to catch a bus to go home! Ah my, so much for my conversational skills!
These days silence doesn't bother me very much. If the other person is bothered by the silence, that's their problem. They can talk if they like. 
I think the discomfort with silence came from a feeling that I was expected to talk, even when I had nothing that I wanted to talk about. So, perhaps it would relieve GH's discomfort if you tell him that you don't expect him to talk when he has nothing important that he wants to say.
If he's feeling bored, perhaps he could give you a shoulder massage, or he could take a nap with his head against your shoulder, or in your lap, if that's OK with you. I think you would have to set his expectations about whether that would lead to sex.
What Marnia says about sex on a schedule makes a LOT of sense to me. Some of my frustration with infrequent sex - back when I was still getting some - was not knowing when I might "get lucky", and so, as Gary put it, my engine was constantly revved up.
LOL! Not just obstinate, not just stubborn, but "obstinately stubborn." Hmmm, can you figure out why it bothers you so much?
Have you actually verbalized these feelings to GH? Based on what I read in Chapter 6 of the Love Busters book, I think it's important to express such feelings as they occur - not later on. I'm not saying it's easy, or that I'm very good at expressing my feelings as they occur. But maybe, next time he starts touching you that way, and you aren't interested in sex, you could just say so (without acting angry about it). You could also try some of the bonding behaviors from Marnia's list. If he's feeling horny, I particularly recommend just holding his penis gently, without movement. It's incredibly soothing, the greatest tranquilizer ever invented! Lying still on top of him for a few minutes may have a similar effect. (If you try these things, please let us know how they work out. As Richard says, we're not comparing notes enough.)
The question in my mind now is, why doesn't he act confidently? Did he used to approach you confidently?
In the first year of my marriage, I would often jump on top of Zoe to enjoy a full-body embrace. Confidently, you might say. That is, I just did it without asking if it was OK. Zoe didn't seem to mind.
On the other hand, I would always ask/invite her to have sex. Not asking would seem disrespectful to me, almost like rape. And gradually, she lost interest in having sex, so I got more and more No's in response to my requests. I don't think I ever acted angrily to a refusal, but I did often act sad and disappointed. We did have some discussions about why she was not often interested in sex, and she took some initiative to talk to friends and doctors to try to find a solution to our mismatched sex appetites. About two years into the marriage, she read me a newspaper article that said that women's appetites for sex increases as they get older, and the article advised husbands not to pressure their wives for sex, but to be patient. At that moment I decided to stop bugging her and to let her initiate sex when she wanted it. Since then I've rarely asked for sex, and if she turned down a request, I would back off and not say anything more. Unfortunately, her interest in sex continued to decline.
Recently, over the past few months, I've asked Zoe to sleep with me again - no sex expected. But even that sort of request has gotten an angry refusal every time I've asked. So... is it any wonder I don't approach her "confidently" any more?
What has happened to Goldenheart, that made him lose confidence?
Regarding asking for sex... On those occasions when Zoe wanted sex, she would often ask me if I wanted it. I would always (except in the first few months of our marriage when I was getting enough) say "Of course!" I would often feel irritated that she would ask. I suppose what I was thinking was "Of course, you idiot, it's been two weeks since the last time." I don't think I was ever ungracious, but I did sometimes tell her that she didn't need to ask.
I think these days I would prefer sex on a schedule - no need to ask. Sex no matter what, unless someone is deathly ill. But I think I would still have to ask if she was ready for me to enter her (unless she told me), otherwise she might not be adequately lubricated.
Holding on for Dear Life
There is something in your thread that is resonating with me and what I am going though - so I wanted to pass it on for consideration.
I found it interesting that curious fellow pulled your previous description of GH's mother as a "domineering screamer". I would take that to mean she was not exactly the most nurturing mother to GH to say the least and perhaps, emotionally abusive and neglecting - something that was a major part of my childhood.
I have been reflecting on the work of Robert W. Firestone, a psychologist that describes the damage caused to children at an early age when they do not receive adequate nurturing and care or worse, suffer extreme neglect. When this happens between a male infant and his mother, it can play itself out in adult life as an inability to express true intimacy and maintain appropriate emotional boundaries.
When he "latches on" as you described it, perhaps it is as if his "inner child" is holding on for dear life, just as a hungry infant might cling to it's mother's breast in response to the emotional pain and anxiety of being neglected.
In that paradigm, you respond in a negative fashion energetically as you are desirious of connecting with a fully realized man, not a hungry, needy little boy.
I asked the Oracle about my "so called" advice and was told that the issue is, "RELYING ON INAPPROPRIATE PERSONS TO FILL NEEDS". GH's ability to heal this core issue with his mother would be his path towards more fully realizing his role as a man and not express this neediness energetically.
The Oracles insight in all this is to "BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER" and I hope that this thread is doing just that.
My apologies to GH for anything in this post that is presumptious - after all, he did not ask my advice and I am operating on my "male intuition" which may not be the sharpest tool in my drawer.
For more info on the work of Firestone:
http://books.apa.org/books.cfm?id=4320074
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Firestone
I am guessing if I am totally off base, there is somebody else in our community that will benefit from his concepts.
Richard
Great insights, Richard. I
Great insights, Richard. I think there's definately a lot of issues from the past he is not aware of. I'd like to be able to offer him healing by giving him a lot of eye-gazing and touch, but for me this is not sexual, and that's where the stumbling block for me is. Why can't I give this to him outside of the context of sex?
I feel like conventional sex for me right now is really quite threatening. First of all, because I would like to have children at some point, and don't want to screw around with someone who I'm not at least somewhat interested in that potential with. Second of all, because I have been very addicted to sex in the past and so want to be sure I don't get caught in that trap again, especially with someone who is already so emotionally vulnerable and whose heart I have already broken so many times. I feel like its very dangerous to get sexually involved with GH before I know that I actually want to be with him as a partner. And I don't feel like his partner yet, even as I would like to be able to support him in his growth and grow myself with him.
My question is why my help in his healing has to be sexual at all, if it is residual craving for emotional closeness leftover from early childhood that is surfacing? I feel like I would be able to give more selflessly if it were not sexual. Why should I make myself biologically vulnerable to him through sex just to help him through something that is not even really sexual (but obviously effects sex)?
One more message of hope
This isn't new, but it always inspires me. (Thanks Discordia!)
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1204
Listen to part two, "Love is a Battlefield."
It shows how 3 weeks of bonding behavior can undo years of child abuse. This is cause for hope, because it means that we *can* genuinely help each other without draining ourselves silly, if we engage in a lot of generous bonding behaviors...and stop setting off those subconscious sensations of restlessness, lack, neediness, scarcity...whatever, which distort our perception (unless we're as lucky as Sood!). In this case, the adoptive parents held their adult-sized son on the couch, and looked into his eyes while listening to him (and feeding him ice cream bribes to keep him there). He hated the idea...and yet...at the end of 3 weeks he was able to start connecting not just with his parents, but also with his peers. He was more confident and less temperamental. I think this might work for GH, too. But try not to send mixed messages.
Good luck, HS. We're energetically holding your hand.
Bingo!
Doesn't that just say it all?
I was touched by the prologue about the monkey experiments where the baby monkey kept coming back to the "abusive" mother doll as if there was some way it could win her over to obtain the cuddling and nurturing it craved.
I recall how my mother disapproved of the way we cuddled and nurtured our kids and she would comment that we were spoiling them by not putting them down. I can only imagine how she treated me as an infant but can surmise certain things from issues I have encountered as an adult.
I was especially proud of how Laurie kept breast feeding beyond what others around us suggested was appropriate.
To this day, I can still enjoy cuddling with all of our kids and feel it was our early bonding that helped to make that seem normal and natural.
Cuddle drunk indeed!
Richard
Thanks everyone
Lots of insight and support coming from this community, I appreciate it. Good advice, too!
We did the second exchange last night (gazing into one another's eyes), and are about to do the third. No time to write now but will keep you all posted.
Cross my fingers I won't have any dream orgasms, my yoni is turned on almost constantly in most every situation except one involving GH. Oh well, I guess that's not the point now anyway. So, if I could just accept that right now I'm not really looking for hot sex and chemistry, that might make all this easier, because I won't expect him to serve me in that way.
Yes, it would be good to just be unconditionally generous with him without fearing that that will imply some kind of commitment to the future with him. That is what holds me back, the notion that if I give in at all, I will find myself stuck and trapped.
Why do I have such fears?
Acceptance and Surrender
What if you really ARE looking for hot sex and chemistry? If your yoni is almost constantly turned on, might that be an unmistakable message of your subconscious desires?
I have sensed in your posts that your sexual attractiveness to men is very important to you - a validation of your worth as an individual. Losing your ability to garner the appreciation of other men around you would certainly result in deep fear in being stuck and trapped. GH's neediness serves to amplify this issue as any manifestation of this towards other men would leave him feeling threatened and insecure, making him cling to you even more.
In my journey, I have found it seems almost one million miles between my head and my heart. I can sense that same conflict between your head telling you not to crave hot sex and chemistry and your heart telling you what your body is manifesting.
Mind you, I am not suggesting an orgy of hot sex and chemistry as your solution.
Your last queston about fears is your ultimate solution. Your answer to that one important question will create congruency between your head and your heart. In recovery, we call that part of our journey the 4th step - a searching and fearless inventory of our character, temperment, resentments.....and fears......
It is valuable preparation for acceptance and ultimately surrender to our higher power, however we understand the divine in our lives.
Wishing you and GH all the best with the exchanges. What a profound privlilege to face another human being that way, soul to soul.
Richard
When GH and I do Chi-kung
When GH and I do Chi-kung together (where we meditate into each major organ), he immediately feels heat in his heart and his lungs. I don't sense my heart as readily. I sense my liver, my brain, and my vertebra.
When GH was 15 years old, his older brother Evo jumped off of a building, effectively killing himself. GH and his father drove to Poland from Czech, to bury him. Evo had left a long letter blaming their mother for his inability to have a decent relationship with a woman. GH and his father never showed the letter to their mother.
I sense that a lot of the energy in his heart and lungs is related to this loss. In Chinese medicine, the lungs are where grief is held. His heart may have gone through quite a shock from this incident. What is beautiful about him is that he has chosen over and over again through heartbreak to remain open and positive. As sad as that experience was for him, I see that it was also very definitive in his self-development and identity.
A few months ago when he was visiting me, I had a group of friends over who were interested in learning some ritual tools I had learned in a workshop from a Siberian shamaness named Nazyeda. We all made offerings to the house spirit and gave thanks outloud for our blessings. Many people stated very elaborate things they were thankful for, but when GH walked up to the sacred tree and made his offering, he said simply, "I am thankful for life." He, unlike all of us, had had an experience with death which resulted in him cherishing life that much more. It is this simplicity of spirit and appreciation that I most enjoy about GH.
I think that's a very typical fear
with conventional sex. So many of us have seen things sour so often that the thought of being *tied* to someone is scary - as soon as they act "depleted" in some way (clingy, needy, etc.). On the other hand, how is the Divine supposed to show us that the issue is "how" rather than "who" unless we can see the magic of harmony bloom with someone we *think* it could never happen with?
By the way, Daniel's parents didn't hold him every minute. Just 20 minutes a day did it. I do assume that they didn't run away from him shrieking the rest of the time, however.
As for the trigger-happy yoni, remember it's an overactivated *brain* pathway that's really causing the demanding urges. I think you once mentioned Tunneshende's work: http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/rainbow_serpent_of_the_toltecs I liked her descriptions of women's orgasm:
Maybe you're in transition.
Hugs,
M
As Always
Your observations are full of wisdom for us all - the ability to pull the energy up from the sexually charged yoni or lingam and upward into the higher chackras is the very heart of all sacred sexual practices.
And those darn neural pathways - we spend years creating hard wired sexual stimulus/response and is it any wonder it can take years for us to create new pathways as the old ones weaken.
Hmmmm...what better way to start rewiring than by exchanges!
You would think somebody might write a book on the subject!
Richard