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Seventeen
It's been an interesting month. My wife and I were away from home for a protracted period, staying in a place that had wafer thin walls, a total lack of privacy, two young kids who required constant attention, and various other dampeners on our sex life. So, we didn't make love for two weeks, at all. Then we suddenly found we had a couple of hours to ourselves, and went wild. Well, sort of wild. No orgasms, though. After this, we had a further week of enforced celibacy. During the entire period, we had plenty of opportunity for cuddling and kissing.
When we returned home, we ravished each other passionately, which needless to say resulted in both of us having orgasms. This was delightful. As my wife said, it was worth waiting three weeks for.
Interestingly, we had also made love, with mutual orgasms, the day before we went away. So, we had a three week orgasm-free period.
I consider myself a fairly self aware person, though I can still miss a lot; but I find I am hard pushed to recognise any deterioration in our relationship during the two weeks following our departure, or any particular improvement after that; or, in fact, any real difference at any stage, during the three weeks we were away. However, as I mentioned, our circumstances were exceptional.
This isn't meant to pour scorn on Marnia's thesis. Enough people on this site recognise withdrawal symptoms following orgasm to make it noteworthy. The question that keeps popping into my mind is whether it is the orgasm or the behaviour leading up to it that is the true villain. In other words, could it be the way we seek orgasm (greedily, graspingly) that alienates us from each other - and from ourselves - rather than the experience itself.
I've also been wondering recently, how close a relationship between two people is 'close enough'; and how close does 'close enough' feel when it's the norm. I'm familiar with the mechanics of change. Initially, it feels fantastic to experience something different; but after a while, the novelty wears off, and it feels ’normal’ again. It's not that the old habit has returned (although it might have done) so much as we have got used to the new way.
This has happened to me time and again.
The question then becomes whether change should be sought after indefinitely, as a matter of principal, or whether there comes a point when contentment with the way things are makes maintenance more important than advancement.
In terms of my relationship with my wife, and more particularly our sexual relationship, this has changed (in two directions) more in the past three years than during the previous thirty. My perpetual gripe during the bulk of our married life had to do with the usual bugbears of frequency and initiation; but there was also an element of feeling we never had occasion for as much non sexual but still physical contact as we both would have liked, because there was so much uncertainty surrounding the issue of whether a touch or a kiss would or would not lead further. I think expectation stifled innocence, in that way.
Since we began talking about these issues, and particularly since we adopted what I've referred elsewhere to as ‘daily choices', our sex life, and our relationship, has changed out of all recognition. However, this now feels so normal, I have to pinch myself to remember how confused things were, not that long ago. Generally, we now have just as much sex as we each want, more or less what we want, when we want; we initiate whatever happens between us sexually on an equal basis; and we also enjoy whatever non sexual contact we want, as often as we want.
What we've lost is a certain element of spontaneity; but so far as I'm concerned, since that often trailed in its wake bitterness and recrimination, when what one person wanted 'on the spur of the moment' wasn't necessarily wanted by the other, I consider us well rid of it.
I mentioned we had changed in two directions. The changes for the worse - as I consider them - have been a cementing of our differences of opinion on what appropriate sexual behaviour is. There are some practices (I'm not talking about sex toys, or bondage, here; we're pretty straight-laced in that respect) that we don't agree about. Tongue kissing comes to mind. Eye gazing, too, while making love.
The interesting part of this is that these practices were more prevalent in the earlier stages of our relationship. So, while we've gained massively in most ways, I feel we've slipped a little in this area. A while back, to jolly things along, I proposed that we should devise a short 'self help' course that we could work our way through; but when I suggested to my wife we begin by each making a statement of intent, laying out what we would like to achieve, how we would like things to be between us, ultimately, she maintained she was quite happy as matters were.
I shouldn’t have been surprised. The truth is, at each and every stage in our past, whenever I was less than happy, which was most of the time, she pronounced herself blissfully content; just as now, when I would say I am more satisfied with the way things are than I have ever been, but not quite as content as I would be if certain aspects changed, she still maintains she is perfectly happy.
She is the kind of person who lives from day to day, and makes the most of what she has; so even if, on reflection, at various intervals during our life together, she might have concluded that matters could be better, she would have tended not to make those kinds of reflection in the first place. I don’t think this is necessarily a case of hiding her head in the sand; I think it’s an estimable, almost Zen-like way to be; but I'm not like that, myself. So, as she says, she's quite happy to go along with my self help idea, and possibly benefit from it, but she’s not going to agonise if we stay exactly as we are.
That brings me back to how close is ‘close enough‘. I now consider the sexual side of our relationship, and our relationship in general, almost ideal. Because my wife has always felt this way (even when I didn't), she unsurprisingly shares that view. However, I'm still striving for my idea of perfection, which doesn’t seem that far away.
I ought to put this in context. I consider I already have perfection in the food I eat, the clothes I wear, the bed I sleep in. There's nothing I would want to change about any of those things; and yet none of them is exceptional, at least in the West. My point is, perfection for me is relatively easily obtained, since it’s mostly about satisfaction, and I'm not that hard to please.
It might seem demeaning to the other person in my life to equate our relationship and especially our sexual relationship with food and shelter; but I think that just means we minimise the overriding importance of basic necessities we take for granted but are dependant on if we want to develop complexity as humans.
Is the closeness I feel I currently share close enough? I think the answer is: not quite; but when does closeness become claustrophobic? I'm asking myself these questions because I remember reading someone's blog on this site where he or she said, after doing the Exchanges, that they had never felt that close to another human being before. I’ve always suspected it’s the threat of that degree of closeness which keeps me from wanting to do them.
I was feeling tired this afternoon. After a luxurious cuddle with my wife in our garden cabin, I lay alone on the sofa in dappled sunlight, peering at the bookcase above my head, which houses a hundred or so rarely looked at books, most covered with fine spider’s webs. I reached up and slid out, “The lover within”, by Julie Henderson, a guide for “creating ecstasy in relationships“. I opened it at random and read:
“One of the things you need to decide is whether you really want to risk re-encountering your power and your vulnerability. I think it’s worth it, but I also know what it was like to get there. With these exercises, we begin to touch on feelings that most people take care all their lives never to feel more than once: anguish, heartbreak, powerlessness, as well as union, ecstasy and bliss.”
How apposite, I thought.
- sood's blog
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Comments
Your Observations
are very much appreciated and on topic to our purpose here Sood.
More than many of us realize, we work very hard to avoid true intimacy and the feelings that come with such open expression.
I believe that two people that are "whole" emotionally and not operating out of need can find true intimacy. Without that inner strength, the neediness tends to smother and I think that is when people start to repel each other energetically.
You sound very fortunate to be in an "almost perfect" relationship and it is easy to see that you have many wonderful things going for the both of you.
Sounds like some tongue kissing for your next "daily choice" would be delicious.
I can recall how exquisite kissing for kissing's sake can be, the wetter, the better! All the better that it is on the list of oxytocin bonding behaviors - yum!
Thanks for all you have shared.
Richard
Amost perfect
Your points are well taken, Richard. I'm only too aware that what's 'almost perfect' for me might (besides seeming somewhat dull to others) be deliberately structured to avoid deeper intimacy. I'm in two minds about neediness, though. I think couples do operate out of need, and satisfying each others needs can be very pleasurable. I even think it (satisfying those needs) is part of our greater purpose.
I sometimes hesitate to post, because I seem to be saying 'everything's fine, thanks', which beggars the question, why frequent a website devoted to healing. I just hope everyone who posts here is sufficiently aware to recognise we as a couple don't have one foot in heaven. We just rub along nicely, while trying to make more sense to each other.
Tongue kissing rocks!
Please don't hesitate to
Please don't hesitate to post! Even if everything is going quite well, it is great to have someone with a 'more or less' healthy conventional sexual relationship posting here. Besides, not many of us in the forum are even getting any, so it's important to get reports from someone who is actually getting laid (even if there are the few week breaks from time to time!).
I'm wondering if you might, like me, be someone who thrives on the challenge of making something always better, even if it is quite good already - ie, you are a problem solver. What would you do without a problem to solve, an inquiry to make? Whereas your wife seems to be someone who appreciates what she has (much like Goldenheart), and doesn't get unnecessarily thoughtful about things that are more or less working fine.
You said it yourself:" 'almost perfect' for me might . . . be deliberately structured to avoid deeper intimacy."
In another post I described my sense of intimacy as being in a "flow" state. It's hard to flow when preoccupied with solving a "problem", ie "Our sex is good but not as good as it could be." You've mentioned in the past that intimacy is not so much something you are looking for in your sexual relationship with your wife, rather, you're looking for hotter sex. I'm wondering, seeing as how you've pointed out that you may be avoiding intimacy, what exactyly you think intimacy is? We all know what hot sex is - more or less, but what is intimacy? Many of us may not have experienced it much. My sense is that the high of hot sex is based laregly upon the verification the ego gets that one is capable, desirable, responsive, and in the peak of health and performance (ie, more self-focused), whereas intimacy is the point where your sense of self dissolves, which is why it is so threatening.
Any thoughts?
Melting boundaries
As I see it, there are two sorts of intimacy. There's the sort where thoughts and feelings are talked about; where past, fond memories are gone over, and future dreams ruminated on; where vulnerabilities are exposed, and gratitude and sympathy expressed. It's very much verbally oriented, usually linked to the past or future; and even though I'm quite a verbal person, I'm not at ease with this type of intimacy, although when I've experienced it, I've found the feeling afterwards to be extremely refreshing. It's almost like opening the windows of a musty house and it filling with fresh air.
The other sort of intimacy comes from what I think of as direct engagement. By this, I mean the complete absence of mental reflection, enabling a visceral contact to be made with someone else, where sensation is predominant. Words aren't necessarily excluded, but they would relate to 'now', rather than 'then' or 'when'.
In the past, I often noticed that my wife liked nothing better, when we finally got into bed in the evening, and I was wondering how to get to grips with her flesh, than starting to chat about what she or I had done that day, or reminisce about something from the past, or fantasise about the future. I often asked why she felt this need to talk and listen and she said it made her feel closer to me and that she needed this closeness before she could begin to want to make love.
I explained to her that I was wired differently. I needed to make love to feel closer. My preference for 'hot sex' is a corollary of this. For me, sex is the greatest 'mind wipe' I can imagine. As soon as I become aroused, which can happen from the first kiss, all reflective thought ceases. If I can 'engage' my wife on that level, we immediately have what I call intimacy. The trouble is, she has greater difficulty than me in switching off her mind, and therefore 'engagement' doesn't always happen that quickly. Paradoxically, the more we talk beforehand, the more likely her mind is to be at peace, but the more stirred up mine will have then become; whereas if we don't talk, she stays in her head, while I'm very much in my body.
That's all changed since we began scheduling our sexual (and non sexual) encounters. I'm not sure why, but I suppose we are now making time for both talk and action to occur on specific, separate occasions rather than relying on them to happen spontaneously, and then not being sure which one the time is right for.
For me, engagement is intimacy at its best, and so I am always looking for ways to increase the likelihood of it occurring. I know looking into each other's eyes while making love is very helpful; but my wife finds this intrusive. I think she feels she has more chance of experiencing pleasure, which for her is the source of our engagement, if she has her eyes shut, or 'glazed', as she can then concentrate more easily on her own sensations; but to my mind, this detracts from the mutuality of the experience.
You mention intimacy being the point where our sense of self dissolves. I'm not sure how that relates to the sort of intimacy that results from talking and listening. The feeling I get from that is discomfort from doing something I don't like, which initially produces a greater sense of isolated self than I had before, followed by a certain relief, and probably release, that leaves my self feeling a little less tightly 'held'. There's no real sense of it dissolving, however. I feel closer, but still separate.
With physically engaging sex, my sense of self starts off feeling quite cohesive and powerful, but if it meets a similarly resonant self in the form of my wife, something happens that produces the sensation of those selves merging. I'm not saying it always happens, or when it does, that it always happens to the same degree, but when it does happen - and this is largely dependant, it seems, on neither of us reflecting, out loud or to ourselves, on what we are doing - a measure of intimacy occurs. Sometimes, this is slight; other times it's profound.
I should add that I'm not suggesting hot sex is necessary for this merging, engagement form of intimacy to occur. It's almost certainly possible fully clothed and with minimal movement. And it certainly doesn't have to lead to orgasm. Karezza is ideal. What I am saying is that hot sex gives me - us, often - a kick start that empties the mind and engages the body without any effort on our part at all; whereas trying to empty the mind and engage the body when going about things in a less frenzied or more cerebral way seems much harder.
I definitely like having problems to solve, though. My wife is the complete opposite. That story about a Zen monk falling off a cliff and grabbing onto a bush as he falls and then being so absorbed by the ripe berries he finds on the bush that he can think of little else but tasting them is my wife all over. The fact that there's a a hundred foot drop below her and little prospect of scrabbling back up the cliff top wouldn't bother her in the slightest. Me - I wouldn't go near the cliff edge, in the first place, for fear of falling; and if I did and I fell I wouldn't see any berries because I would have eyes only for how firmly the roots were wedged in the soil and how I could winch myself to safety.
I think there is a degree of intimacy in everything couples do together, but it's easy to become blasé about this. For example, holding hands, which was electrifying when I first met my wife, is still pleasant; but it's more reassuring than exciting, now; and that means it's less likely to cause the boundaries between us to melt. 'Melting boundaries' is what I think intimacy is; and it seems much more readily available from hottish sex than anything else; although, of course, there are all the variants of intimacy from boundaries just beginning to melt, which is an agreeable sort of 'togetherness' and boundaries fully melted, which is bliss.
So, my tendency is to seek out the most abrupt possible transition from being two separate entities to being one person, which for me is full on sex (although, however frantic the beginning, we do slow right down soon afterwards). I think my wife finds the transition easiest via other routes. The beauty of each of us choosing how we approach each other intimately on alternate days is we can at least try whatever we prefer just as often as whatever our partner prefers.
I should have added that as things stand at the moment in our life each evening one of us asks the other to join in a specific form of intimate contact the following day (hot sex, going for a walk, sitting on a bench holding hands, cuddling on a sofa ...) So, our understanding of intimate contact is more or less anything done together to the exclusion of others. It's the degree of intimacy within what is done that I've been talking about.
Years ago, I read an NLP book called Frogs into Princes. It talked about 'uptime' and 'downtime'. The authors described their understanding of intimacy as not being talking and listening, as this didn't produce connectedness with other people, since both parties were primarily concerned with themselves, even if they were thinking about the other. They called that preoccupation with the way things had or could be as 'downtime'. 'Uptime' was when a person, or couple, were responding to one another in direct sensory experience and nothing else.
There was no suggestion that downtime was less valuable than uptime; only that it wasn't their definition of intimacy.
Personally, I find downtime, or what I think of as the talking and listening sort of intimacy, uncomfortable, at best, to do, although its aftermath is splendid. I find the engagement form of intimacy - uptime - delightful from the outset. So, I reason, why put myself through acute discomfort in order to feel better connected afterwards when I can enjoy better connection immediately through activities I find delightful?
Does that make sense? I think it's in the light of this that I talk of shielding myself from more closeness and further intimacy, when what I really mean is not the intimacy that results from 'downtime', so much as the downtime itself; though why I find talking and listening and reflecting so hard to share, I don’t know. I do it all the time in my own head!
I couldn't help wondering
where bonding behaviors would fit into all this. Seems like they could be the perfect middle ground as they involve the contact you crave and the non-goal oriented communication your wife does. Maybe there's a middle gear between "uptime" and "downtime."
In Praise of Needs
You just read my mind...or my post...or both???
We all have basic needs - not a bad thing at all - and satisfying needs is a very good thing. The Dr. Harley book, "His Needs, Her Needs" is practical advice on how meeting basic needs (which are different for each person) makes for powerful feelings of love in a marriage. In the absence of needs being met, affairs happen, even to the nicest, moral people you might know.
On the subject of "neediness" - I think it is critical to look at the motivation of each individual underneath - some satisfy needs out of true love, desire for intimacy and the overflow of their own self esteem - others negotiate from a sense of lack and can only give conditionally as a response to what they get - "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."
The wisdom shared here at Reuniting is wonderful but can be challenging to implement if a person's psychological make-up is adverse to true love and intimacy.
I always enjoy your posts Sood as they serve to remind me how important the bonds of communication and companionship are for couples that want to explore intimate sexuality, orgasmic or otherwise. When those connections are operating, the end result will always reflect shared needs being met for both parties, a very good thing.
Richard
Needs and Neediness
It sounds like a Jane Austen title!
I think I get the distinction you're making here. Thanks for explaining it. The trouble is, true motivation is often difficult to discern, not least one's own.
I'll look into that book you mention. I've been staggered to learn over the past year just what my major needs are - being touched, non sexually, is one of them - and how different in terms of priority they are to my wife's. She likes being touched, too, but what she really, really likes is being complimented, on both her looks and actions. I appreciate that as well, but nothing like as much as being touched.
So, when we operate without reflection, I touch her a lot and she compliments me ... just as she used to give me a flower for my birthday, and I would give her chocolate, because that's what we each liked most.
Love Languages
Another parallel concept to "his needs, her needs" is love languages and the ideas dovetail quite nicely. For this discussion, your love language is "touch" and her love language is "admiration". You like to touch her and she likes to complement you because that is how you prefer to be loved.
The trick is to changes languages to give the other what they need, not what you prefer. This can take practice since "admiration" is not your native language and "touch" does not appear to be hers.
For the record, the 10 primary needs in a relationship per Harley are:
Admiration
Affection
An Attractive Spouse
Honesty and Openness
Family Commitment
Conversation
Domestic Support
Financial Support
Recreational Companionship
Sexual Fulfillment
Each partner has different priorities - the key is to identify and focus on the top three for each person and to completely care for those needs to build up romantic love in your relationship. He calls this making "deposits" in your Love Bank and the returns on your investment are found in a loving, romantic relationship.
At the same time, he defines 5 "love busters" that make "withdrawals" in the Love Bank. They are:
Angry Outbursts
Disrespectful Judgments
Annoying Behavior
Selfish Demands
Dishonesty
If these take over a relationship, they are like weeds that crowd out all the beauty in the garden and eventually, the relationship becomes "bankrupt" and the ability to care and give to the other person is lost.
Energetically, this becomes the time when one becomes vulnerable to other relationships. For instance, there is the classic "office tryst" where the complements about your clothes and your career prowess start to germinate and take root.
Anyhow, you get the idea.
In another post, you asked how I worked to implement these ideas in my marriage. It is a rather complex discussion and I am not sure this is the time and place to revisit 26 years of my life. What I can tell you is that I consistently asked her to do therapy with me, read self help books with me, grow spiritually with me and she typically framed things that she was happy and that something was wrong with me that I could not be happy.
I tended to buy into this, having come from a dysfunctional family and Laurie coming out of what I now can see as a "superficially perfect" family. I did my best to fit in and even worse, stuffed my inner thoughts and feelings as I hoped to make my marrige work at all costs, especially once the children came into the picture and I did not want to abandon them based upon my traumatic childhood experience.
My biggest mistake was to accept her unwillingness and/or inability to work on our issues together. There were so many times she would walk away from therapy and I would not confront her but tried even harder to make things work. It was a "relationship death spiral" if you will, because I lost my self respect and over time, Laurie became increasingly more angry and disrespectful, knowing that I would not stand up to her.
Having an affair, or in my case, multiple affairs, was a very logical and predictable outcome. I can recall feeling so powerless in my marriage but so powerful with each lover. My wife behaved like a little girl but the women I hooked up with were sexual tigresses and we consumed each other in our animal passions. I felt totally alive and fully man - each woman celebrated me as a powerful and caring lover. It appeared to be the perfect answer to the sexual lack in my marriage except the dishonesty was destroying my integrity and I believe I came very close to losing my soul.
Fortunately, that is all behind me now and I am finally at a point in my life where I no longer consider what her issues are but my focus is on what I can learn about myself from my experiences. I have learned that in my "love addiction" - I brought into our marriage many issues that were beyond my ability to follow the simple premises of Harley's books on needs and love busters. I refer to that issue as the million miles between my head and my heart - I am an encyclopedia of knowledge but the ability to do the right thing was lacking. In that regard, I contributed more than my fair share to the demise of our marriage.
But with today, the first day of the rest of my life, there is infinite possibility to live, love and learn. I no longer regret my past but remain aware enough not to repeat it. I embrace change in my life and acknowledge that my wife has her own choices that currently seem to take us further and further apart. We will always have the connection of our three beloved children and I wish her nothing but happiness, wherever life leads her.
Richard
Your resume
Richard, that was very generous of you to give such a detailed reply. It would probably be inappropriate of me to ask you for more. I will certainly look closely at Dr Harley's approach. I find it particularly uncomfortable reading the five 'love busters' (particularly the first two and probably the third) and looking back over the last thirty plus years of married life.
I've just visited his website and found some useful downloads. And to think I thought I had my life all wrapped up!
Looking Back
I was aware of the "needs" piece of the Harley approach long before I found the "love busters" piece. It is a sobering reality check for sure.
You are not alone in experiencing discomfort from reviewing the list - Laurie and I both acknowledged our shortcomings from the list at one time. Once these destructive habits take root in a relationship, it is virtually impossible to find the feelings of love and nurture that are a necessary prerequisite to caring for your partner's needs selflessly. Short of divine intervention, as Laurie once put it, "It's too little, too late."
Don't be too hard on yourself: to err is human, to forgive divine. I can see how my "relationship template" was crafted in childhood and many of my love busting traits were hard wired coping mechanisms used for protection. I am just now learning to forgive myself for starters.
Ironically, Laurie was the perfect woman to fulfill my expectations of women based upon my experiences with my mother. In a like manner, I was the perfect manifestation of Laurie's judgements about men, based upon how she was treated by her father.
The grave danger of love busting behavior is that it leads to contempt towards your partner, which according to the work done by Gottman, coorelates highly with marriages that fail.
Trying to focus on needs has been an effort in futility as long as we are stuck in a vicious cycle of love busting back and forth. I found the following info of interest.
I definitely see your relationship glass as more than half full and believe you will find these concepts valuable to enhance your marriage even further. How wonderful that we never have to stop learning and growing!
Now if you will only stop touching her and start admiring her - you may reach perfection in this lifetime yet!
You have not asked too much in our conversation and thank you for helping to bring me out of my season of solitude and quiet reflection. It is a pleasure to share with you.
Richard
More on Gottman's study
http://www.reuniting.info/science/mathematics_of_marriage_getting_the_lo...
Interesting article
The stuff about fundamental perceptual shifts makes sense to me. When I think of Zoe, I still think of that beautiful, warm creature I once knew. The screaming and so on do seem "temporary" to me, even though it has gone on to greater or lesser degrees for most of my marriage. Thus, I feel very little motivation to get a divorce. I keep waiting for her to drop her anger and come back to me.
Zoe, on the other hand, seems to have decided, perhaps five years ago or longer, that I'm a jerk, and shows no interest in getting back together again.
How could we explain that, using Marnia's theories? Why does Zoe want to separate, and I don't? First of all, people are different, obviously - and that could include their reactions to the neurochemicals of sex. So perhaps Zoe is more susceptible to the separation effects.
I think I may have managed to avoid the separation effect because of my lovemaking practices. I've always enjoyed a lot of lying still together, and I've always stayed inside and cuddled for a few minutes after orgasm. Perhaps the extra oxytocin I generated that way mitigated the bad effects of orgasm for me, but perhaps not so much for Zoe.
(I really wonder what's up with 99% of all porno movies, where the man ejaculates externally. Do most viewers enjoy seeing that?! It seems like such an unnatural and not-very-pleasant thing to do (compared with coming inside) that I find it hard to believe that any man would prefer to come outside, and so, why would any man want to experience that vicariously? What is the economic driving force that makes most porno movies show the man coming outside?)
Speaking of economics...
I don't quite get what you are saying, Marnia. "Economical" in what way? Fewer doctor's bills due to better health, compared with other "calming practices"?
Also, perhaps you should say "sex without orgasm", if that's what you mean.
"Economical"
in the sense of "energy conserving" or "efficient." This practice kills two metaphorical birdies with one stone. It prevents fallout *and* strengthens emotional bonds.
As you often see on this site, those who understand the power of bonding behaviors believe that these behaviors can overcome the subtle separation of sexual satiation. (They can...as long as both partners stick together, but subtle discontent may still pervade the relationship.)
Others, who get why the "no orgasm" idea is vital for them, have trouble connecting with another and gaining the benefits of bonding behaviors, rich in oxytocin. They want to achieve peace alone...think of religious celibates.
When you use this practice (bonding-based lovemaking) to combine avoiding the sexual-satiation signal with reaping the gifts of bonding behaviors, you get a much stronger effect.
___
Maybe Zoe's nervous system reacted because you used to "give her a good pounding" trying to make sure she orgasmed (bless your loving, logical heart), whereas she never devoured you sexually. In other words, her nervous system possibly saw you as a threat at a subconscious level, whereas yours never saw her as a threat, because she remained passive. Just a theory....
Do We Need a Disclosure
to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that we don't compare notes on any of this stuff?
It's wonderful to see what you are working on in your spare time Marnia - thanks for the link.
Obviously, I have yet to take explore your advice with a loving partner. Some day - hopefully soon!
I sense that a loving, intimate, healthy relationship can survive the presence of orgasm, given a healthy portfolio of loving, nurturing bonding behaviors. I see that in what Sood has shared with us in his posts.
On the other hand, withdrawal from orgasm can be another nail in the coffin of a more precarious relationship that is unable to properly bond with healthy intimacy and has foundational flaws in the partner's psychological make-up.
I will enjoy the chance to test your premises at the right time - until then, I will weigh in the best I can.
Richard
The Technical Term
used by the porno industry is "the money shot" for male ejaculation. It has nothing to do with economics, nothing to do with the quality of the experience, everything to do with the voyeuristic nature of viewing porn that features well endowed men spewing copious volumes of ejaculate.
So yes, the viewers enjoy and expect the money shot and like most porn, it has nothing to do promoting sex as a loving, sacred, sensual act of sharing.
Then again, what do I know? Don't really watch the stuff. Much rather participate than watch. (Don't suffer me my dreams!)
Your Zoe sounds like my Laurie. Could it be her childhood trauma that all men are jerks and you are her self fulfilling prophecy? Forgive me - I don't recall the specifics of your relationship and would not want to be presumptious. Have you cheated on her? Has she caught you in porn addiction? What would trigger her to think of you as a jerk? Do you leave crumbs in bed when you eat crackers?
I do recall your love letters to Zoe and I assume you still love her deeply. You are quite the optimist to hope 5 years later that some day she will come to her senses. Are there kids involved? I applaud your courage to remain steadfast under such duress. On the other hand, it could be that your continued willingness to "take it" from her reinforces her resolve to treat you badly as there is no consequence to her actions, no motivation for her to change.
Anyhow - nuff said.
Richard
Mars and Venus
seem alive and well in your marriage Sood. You are looking to express intimacy in the afterglow of your sexuality while she is looking to express sexuality in the afterglow of her intimacy.
Another one of life's paradoxes, no doubt.
I think Marnia's middle ground suggestion around bonding behaviors makes perfect sense - I also think that your scheduling of "his choice" and "her choice" evenings is sheer genius for keeping everyone happy - classic give and take for respecting and nurturing your differences.
I was once told that men are like microwaves - flip a switch and we turn on and heat up - while women are like crock pots - the perfect design for slow cooking and simmering. I was struck with the thread recently about how to live and love with a tipped uterus and it reminded me of how important going slow can be to properly warm up a lover, regardless.
I have also learned to do my best to love and understand that most erogenous of zones in the female anatomy - that's right, you guessed it, the brain. I think that is why the art of conversation can be so important to many ladies and by that, I mean really listening with an intent to deeply feel and reflect what they are sharing. This is entirely different than listening with one ear while forming my response before they are done speaking or even worse, muttering "uh-huh" while pondering your "to do list" from work. When I am in the moment with an intimate conversation, I believe that I can lose myself entirely in thoughts and feelings of my lady, in much that same way as I might in a wordless, sensual connection of our sexuality.
Indeed, my understanding of true intimacy tells me that expressing my inmost self requires that I reveal my feelings and needs, hopes and dreams, fears, joys and worries, creative insights, my secrets, my pain - all the inner, personal aspects of who I am and a very tall order for many of us guys, where a premium is placed on "being a man" and not showing emotions.
Ironically, that is why intimacy has been so hard for me - much of my life was spent learning how NOT to be intimate as early on, I discovered how opening up can be hurtful and the safe thing becomes staying closed off. And so it goes I reasoned that if you knew my inner truths, you would not or could not really love me - a very lonely place to be.
Part of my journey is learning to be intimate with myself and that is why this time of separation is so valuable to me. I am learning to love and accept myself for what I am, not for what I think I'm supposed to be, as "taking off the mask" can be a very scary proposition.
As I learn to love and accept myself, I can also learn to love and accept my partner for her differences. In that way, I think it is a big mistake to expect the other person to be a carbon copy of myself as this can only lead to a suffocating, unhealthy mess where neither person has any freedom or personal identity.
I sense that you get that and I also sense that you and your wife have made peace with your differences that allow you to enhance your partnership. What a wonderful buffet of life experiences - tonight Karezza, tomorrow an evening of conversation and foot massage, perhaps on Wednesday some hot steamy sex that will peel off the wallpaper in the bedroom - including some incredible mind clearing orgasms that leave two lovers in a breathless embrace.
My only question - since your wife desires conversation and I am told most men fall fast asleep right after orgasm, how do you manage to converse after all that hot sex?
Richard
Bonding and silence
We're very appreciative of bonding behaviours, particularly non verbal ones. They certainly promote a comforting form of intimacy.
Luckily, my wife and I are as one when it comes to what we do after sex, orgasmic or otherwise: if it's nightime, we sleep; if it's daytime, we wander around, affectionate but silent. Neither of us wants to talk much.