Please join in the discussion in this blog or the forums. There are several of us here that are trying to repair or improve our relationships. We can all benefit by sharing our experience and suggestions. We welcome you to join us here!

Since I don't know anything about your situation, at this point I can only offer some generic advice:

Check out the comments in reply to my first post at http://www.reuniting.info/node/1376. (See what awesome advice you can get by posting? )

I really like the book Love Busters by Dr. Willard Harley, available in most bookstores and on the site www.marriagebuilders.com.

There is some discussion about starting the Exchanges with an unwilling male partner at http://www.reuniting.info/node/1376.

Good luck, hope to see you posting here soon!

Hotspring, I really appreciate this post, especially that you decided to bring up those assumptions. It sounds like you're learning a lot from this, all other considerations aside.

I just have one comment:

Well, not dangerous, except that in my experience, the one will lead to the other, and if by some chance you resist, you will still be left with a tremendous case of sexual frustration. Not all good kissing is hot kissing.

that all men are alike in the dark?

I want to say that your experience is very inspiring, Hotspring. By walking through "the fire," you're seeing what's possible in terms of overcoming the projections onto a partner, which so easily arise. The difference in light-heartedness in your post is noticeable. That may seem like a small thing, but in terms of quality of life, it's a very powerful shift. Life can be pleasurable most of the time in that mindset...not just a constant drive to "get" one reward after the other - with lots of frustration and anxiety in between "hits" of satisfaction. Of course, it feels so natural when you're in this place, that you don't fully appreciate it until you go back on the roller coaster and the clouds gather repeatedly.

But enough dithering. I want to address your two main points directed to me.

First, I believe a lot of kids are had on this planet because people think they "should" have them, or that kids are "necessary to happiness." I think this is true even of people who would have been a lot happier pouring their energies into something else in a given lifetime. Thinking as part of a whole (humanity as a group), I think it is clear that mankind would be far better served if people did *not* produce children casually.

I do think we need close connections with others, and people to love unconditionally in our lives. I think our mental and physical health actually depend on this. Because of the fragility of intimate relationships, many people steer for kids in order to find that deeper nourishment. This is a rational decision...except when, as now, the planet is bursting at the seams with too many people, and an increasingly toxic environment. But it is also a decision that is *often* based on neediness. People produce kids for the same reason they have orgasms. Biology convinces them that they really, really WANT this goal to be met, and that their happiness depends upon it. It *feels* like this is true.

The reality is quite different, though, as someone pointed out earlier. Having kids is a full-time job - if done well. Everyone involved suffers if too much is taken on in addition. This isn't very "liberated," but based on actual observation, it seems to be the case. I'm not saying that there aren't moments of reward in parenting. Gary has a son, whom we see a lot of, and they love each other dearly. But those moments of reward are, in many, many families, very few, in comparison with the other worries and stresses. Perhaps this is not true in a tribe, but it's true even in many stable marriages. And today, stable marriages are increasingly unlikely. The odds of your becoming a single parent at some point, Hotspring, are huge. Of course, they improve if you master what you're now learning...life on a more even keel.

My philosophy is that if we learn how to make our intimate relationships meet our genuine needs for trusted closeness, we will feel more free to make sound decisions about whether or not to have kids. I believe that centered intimate relationships help us make choices better, not just about kids, but about every area of our lives. We *see* things more clearly, and with less neediness.

My hope is that someday people will master relationships *first*, and THEN decide if they feel called to be parents or not. I feel we all have potential "assignments," things we could accomplish in our lives, and that we are far more likely to accomplish them if we're willing to clear our perception by every means we can, and then do some inner listening on our ideal course of action. For some, that "ideal assignment" may be to be a parent. I have a very close friend who is a wonderful mom. But she felt called to adopt a girl from Cambodia, who would have probably been starving and living in rags otherwise (judging from the photos of her former family). In other words, she reached out to help another member of our human tribe. It wasn't just her genetic program talking.

Let me quickly add that I'm not saying all parents who produce their own children are just listening to their biology. I'm merely saying, I think we should all listen within very carefully before casually slipping into the reproduction business. It may be we came back this lifetime with some larger assignment that we can't do well AND have children who are properly bonded and supported.

So if I HAD to give anyone advice (which, as you correctly point out, I generally avoid when it comes to this subject), I would say, "Master karezza. Then, when you are centered, and your relationship feels healthy and stable, do some inner listening. Try to align your will with Divine Will...just so you don't regret it later, when you get back up to your cloud and realize that you could have made some much needed, lasting contribution for the benefit of humanity, if you hadn't been listening only to your genes. On the other hand, if you listen within, and you get the clear impression that your highest assignment is to bear children, then GO FOR IT with all the excellence and love you can muster!"

I feel that if we all did this, things would come out just right - in the sense that those who should become parents will, and those who could contribute with greater satisfaction in some other way will do so. Meanwhile, however, a lot of people are having kids without thinking. I have another friend, who married a man with a congenital disease that caused him to go blind. She married him, for a while, and produced two children. I couldn't help asking her why she would do that, knowing they faced a risk of going blind. She said, "well that would just be their karma." But the real answer was, "because I was desperate to have kids however I could get them. I wanted them for ME, not for THEIR welfare." Now her daughter is going blind at twenty. I ask you...do you think that was Divine Will? I don't. And I think it is bound to have karmic repercussions...for the mother.

On the other hand, some kids MAY selflessly come back to help out their parents with gaining key insights, so having a child can be an important life lesson for the parents. My only point is that it can't hurt to "listen up" before conceiving.

It troubles me that the one impulse we think should be entirely up to our wills and impulses is our urge to procreate. We've even created "gods" who insist that's what we're supposed to do. But look around. If we were thinking of ourselves as a unit, rather than as individuals, we would see the single-mindedness of this instinctual response.

Second point: partner choice

I think any two people in relationship can make progress using karezza. I do not think mate choice should be random...or based on "the hots." When someone is already in a marriage, my suggestion is always "give the ideas a try first...so you see each other more clearly. THEN figure out if you're supposed to be together."

My impression has been that you felt there was a lesson to be learned with GH, and that this "assignment" was up for you now. That is why I have encouraged you to stay with it for a few months...without trying to second-guess the divine plan or worry about who will father your children. Reading the post above, it seems clear to me that you are receiving huge gifts that would benefit your children when you have them...with whomever.

Believe me, they will benefit enormously by having two parents, rather than one (there are many statistics on this). If you *have* learned a means to greater harmony, then this lesson is important preparation for parenting. The point is that you didn't even know you could learn more about harmony, or that you needed to. Only by following your inner guidance is it becoming clear to you. I have seen this kind of process over and over in my own life. The lessons we need most are the ones we can't even SEE that we need...even when they are critical for our most cherished goals.

But back to the issue. To say that any two people can benefit from karezza, is not the same as saying partners are interchangeable. I don't believe that for a moment. I think it is *very* important to check within before hooking up with ANY partner, for any purpose. As you know, Gary and I connected on this basis. He seemed a very strange choice for me in some ways, and yet, a year into our relationship, he began to dig up science that I had no idea even existed, and it has been a key part of my life's work.

Most of us choose our mates - as I did for years - based on our biological impulses, without even realizing that's what we're doing. (This is especially tricky, since biology is also behind "The Coolidge Effect." That is, biology will always keep us moving on to the next greener pasture, because it serves our genes, not our children or us.) Even if we have an "ideal mate" list, the chances are that biology plays an important part in our choice (looks, resources). Even if biology doesn't figure prominently, that list is usually purely selfish. It's what we think we need to raise our status, fund our dreams, improve our self-esteem, please our parents, etc.

How many of us put on our list, "I would like a mate with whom I could make my maximum contribution to mankind's true benefit?"

What would happen if we did that?

So, no, I don't think mate choice should be random. But I do think it's wise, unless strongly guided by a force higher than the primitive brain, to "love the one your with" until a particular lesson is learned, before bolting impulsively for the next one. In my experience, when the Plan calls for partners to move on - because it's to the benefit of both - then things move. There's no need to scrabble constantly to try to move the pieces the way we *think* we want them.

I was *very* good at moving pieces myself, by the way. Time after time, I forced outcomes, only to realize that, thanks to factors I couldn't see coming, I ended up clutching straws even after I got what I "wanted." I got tired of hitting my head against the same brick wall, and decided to shut up and listen (I know that's hard to imagine... ). So when I encouraged you to stay with GH for a bit, and stop that restless analysis of "who's going to father my baby?" it was not because I was trying to impede your parenting ambitions, but because this relationship/learning opportunity seemed to be on your path - according to what YOU were saying.

Just curious, did you ever consider that the Divine Plan is trying to give you just what you want because it IS right for you? Could GH, in fact, be the best possible father available? And that all you really need is time to clear your perception, so you can see his potential more clearly? He seems to be able to complement your lovely fireworks in a way that few men could. Plus he sounds very kind and tolerant. Do you think your kids would need two firebrands for parents?

I don't know the answer to these questions, but I honestly believe your higher self does. If you want to know my opinion, I would say that as you continue getting clearer, ASK as many questions as you can. But also be willing to ask the ones you think you don't want to hear the answers to. Ask what your highest purpose is. Ask if it's having kids. Think about the answers you get. Then do as you wish. It's always our choice in the end. But it doesn't hurt to try to listen to more than one opinion.

I have a very dear friend who subscribes to the idea that it does not matter who you partner with. What is most important is learning to love each other as is and give up the need to be in charge or to have wars over control. She's tried it in marriage four different times with varying degrees of success.

I want to try with the next Goddess I meet to not worry about the externals too much and to do the Exchanges and see if it is possible to build a relationship one step at a time.

Hotspring, I'm not chastising you. I'm just a bit concerned and trying to offer some friendly advice.

It's like there's a quicksand pit near where we are standing. Yesterday someone wandered by, no one warned her, she fell in, and the results were rather sad. And today someone else came by, someone warned him, he said "yeah, I know," and then he stepped into a part of the pit that he didn't know about... and the results were rather sad.

So I just want to be sure you fully understand the boundaries of that quicksand pit. I don't want you to suffer the same fate as those others.

And I know you're not Zoe. All I know about you comes from what I have read in this blog. But here are some of the things that give me concern:

On Aug 11 you wrote: "Yesterday we had perhaps the most stupid argument of my adult career." and "Being around someone so unconfrontational causes me to feel even more direct and aggressive."

And today you wrote "I expressed appreciation... for his ability not to get thrown off course by any drama I throw his way."

Do you see why I might be a little bit concerned?

In the Love Busters book, Harley says that people who engage in those love busting behaviors (selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts) are often quite unaware of what they are doing. Zoe is a perfect example of that. Sometimes, when I feel like she is being unreasonably harsh toward me, I'll protest about the scolding or lecturing. She always denies that she is "scolding" or "lecturing" me. "Well, what were you doing, then?" I might ask. "I was just saying that you don't help out enough around the house," she might say. Or "I was just trying to share my knowledge and experience." "All right, if it wasn't scolding, what word can I use to describe the way you were talking to me just now?" I might ask. I've never gotten a useful answer. It makes it impossible to even discuss the scolding behavior.

Harley says that if there is disagreement about whether something is or is not a disrespectful judgment, etc., then it IS. In other words, the target gets to decide if something is a disrespectful judgment, etc.

So, Hotspring, sometime when you are in a cheerful and loving mood (which I hope is often), why not ask GH if he thinks you ever speak too harshly to him? If you don't speak harshly to him, you have nothing to worry about, and there is no harm done by asking, right? And if you do, well, there is something that you can work on that can improve your relationship!

Best wishes -- CF

I was once quoted as saying:

My experience with cancer has taught me to be very careful about what I verbalize just in case the universe is listening and takes me literally!

So many good topics in this string - where to start? I know! My beloved orgasms!

This is pregnant with meaning at least for me. It is one of many "chicken and egg" metaphors in this string. Marnia is right to suggest aligning with one's partner and divine guidance before deciding about having kids. So many couples ARE having kids for so many wrong reasons. CF is so right to suggest one count the cost of raising children in a loving home as it is a huge endeavor that requires constant sacrifice that will erode even the strongest marriage if the relationship is not grounded in unconditional love.

Another key point - actually, one of many that Marnia made:

I am so good at "doing my mate's recovery" and detailing all her problems and shortcomings when in fact, she is God's divine provision for helping me face my lessons in life - the problem being that I resist these lessons all the way, kicking and screaming and making a fuss much like a 2 year old in full temper tantrum. And yes, that is some hyperbole thrown in but then again, maybe not - I am sure I act at least like an 8 or 9 year old. As Marnia said, I can force my mate's hand, move the pieces and in the end, wherever I go, I take me with me!

So in the end, it does come down to divine guidance and why is it so hard to be in alignment? You are so right Hotspring, it is very nebulous and thus our ability to rely on such subtle energy can be challenging, at least for me it is.

I am struck with the realization that I did not fall to my knees first thing today, did not seek to pray and meditate to start my day. Instead, I raced to my computer to interact with my fellow human beings, not necessarily a bad thing but what is my priority here? So until I repair my relationship with divine guidance that I totally surrender to divine wisdom in what I say and do, I am resigned to miss the key life lessons that I need for my benefit.

My therapist suggested yesterday - I knew I really like this guy, but now I really like him - that I fire my God and get a new one. One that loves me unconditionally. One that always is there for me when needed. One that is not harsh and critical to condemn me. Who wants that sort of God, right? And so my work in life right now, is to see how my concepts of God were formed when I was an innocent child, shaped by my parents and other key adults that had power over my powerlessness. It was my mistake, an honest mistake at that, to imbue God with these same qualities when in fact, that is not God indeed.

So I terminated my old God, with 2 weeks notice of course to avoid violating any regulations around such things, and will be interviewing new God candidates this week. The new God must exhibit love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness and the discipline to get things done. I am hoping to take my time and really get to know this new God, so that connecting with God first thing in the morning and last thing every evening is something that I would never think of not doing. This new God will help me give up orgasms, or not, depending on what is in my best interests, physically, emotionally and spiritually. Life will become that easy!

I have not intended anything in my sharing to reflect on anyone else and their relationship with God, nor their relationship with partners. It is just a snapshot of where I am at and where I have been in recent times in my journey. Even when I am not blogging, I am with everyone in spirit and love to keep up with the collective experience of this wonderful, gracious community.

Great thread - love this stuff.

Richard

Contact with the Divine force happens even when we are not conscious of it, but its better when we are:

"The surest way toward integral fulfillment is to find the Master of the secret who dwells within us, open ourselves constantly to the divine Power which is also the divine Wisdom and Love and trust to it to effect the conversion. But it is difficult for the egoistic consciousness to do this at all at the beginning. And, if done at all, it is still difficult to do it perfectly and in every strand of our nature. It is difficult at first because our egoistic habits of thought, of sensation, of feeling block up the avenues by which we can arrive at the perception that is needed. It is difficult afterwards because the faith, the surrender, the courage requisite in this path are not easy to the ego-clouded soul. The divine working is not the working which the egoistic mind desires or approves; for it uses error in order to arrive at truth, suffering in order to arrive at bliss, imperfection in order to arrive at perfection. The ego cannot see where it is being led; it revolts against the leading, loses confidence, loses courage. These failings would not matter; for the divine Guide within is not offended by our revolt, not discouraged by our want of faith or repelled by our weakness; he has the entire love of the mother and the entire patience of the teacher. But by withdrawing our assent from the guidance we lose the consciousness, though not all the actuality -- not, in any case, the eventuality -- of its benefit."

--Sri Aurobindo

words of wisdom Galileo and very much what I needed to hear upon return from my morning errands.

So yes indeed hotspring, why so subtle and such infinite patience?

Perhaps, as the saying goes, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for today - teach him how to fish and he can eat for life."

I believe that the Divine did not create us with such miraculous complexity, only to be mindless robots. We are endowed by our Creator with many gifts, including our precious free will. One of many things I adore about Galileo's post on Sra Aurobindo is the reference to "ego-clouded soul".

So there I sit on the bank of my favorite fishing spot, dangling my bait as only my ego-clouded soul knows how, and God sends a divine messenger into my life - could be my wife, my lover, my friend, my child, my boss - and the message is, "Richard, how is the fishing today - catching any?" If I am capable of swallowing my pride and admitting, "Nope, not even a bite!" then and only then might I open up to the potential for trying another type of bait.

It is said that Edison on his way to inventing the light bulb, failed over 1,000 times to find the right metal for making the filament. His ego-less response was to acknowledge that each failure showed him something that would not work - thus narrowing the potential options for finding what would.

As I watched each of my infant children learn to walk, I was reminded that if they gave up after falling the first time, they would never have learned the gift of walking. And so it goes in my life that I stumble and fall, bruise my shin, strain my achilles - try anything and everything I can think of that does not work until finally one day - Ta Da - I learn to run and race like the wind!

I also question the extent of God's patience in my life but I'm doing better, thank you.

I can't say it was loud, but I have had some incredible moments of clarity since my dance with cancer began. I remember right after my diagnosis - my marriage and family shattered in pieces all around me - I was having quite the pity party and wishing that I was dead. I was all alone and aimlessly wandering around the house, as if taking inventory of what I needed to do before I gave up and checked out, letting the cancer run it's course.

I chanced upon a thick 3 ring binder - full of the divine music I have played for most of the last 26 years and started to browse the pages. As I did, I could feel God's spirit embracing me in love and a still, quiet voice that expressed appreciation for each song that I chose and how it was shared. It was like being a little boy again and sitting on my father's lap as he shared with me a photo album of our lives and times together and I experienced a warm embrace of approval for people's lives that I had touched, mostly unbeknown to me. In that moment, I knew that there was still more music in me to share with others and the healing that comes from music shared energetically from a heart of love. I purposed to yield to continue to my divine purpose and to "always do my best" in manifesting my gifts - much as I was told in "The Four Agreements", a book by Don Miquel Ruiz.

Oregon is such a glorious place for it's trees and I am always in awe of how each tree is unique in how it is shaped and formed by the elements - the soil it grows in, the moisture available on that part our our valley, the varying sun exposure of each slope, the wind and the storms that bend it or break it and ultimately strengthen it.

I see perfection in each tree - a reflection of how it developed in response to the unique conditions in it's life and I purpose to live with this same purpose knowing that I dare not be a deciduous tree, envying the beautiful evergreen for it's thick robe of needles in winter.

Now that I think about it, I do see and hear about the divine very loud and clear in our natural surroundings and love to feel really small and insignificant in the midst of a brilliant display of lightning with the resounding thunder that follows.

And as ego surrenders in that moment of awe, divine spirit increases in my life and it overflows to those around me.

Richard

Anyone Here involved with Arnold Mindel's processwork organisation in Portland? (that's just a tickle- google it if you must) On the Divine front. Many years ago I was active in Subud. A spiritual organisation who's primary focus was a practice of recieving grace and guidance from our higher power on a moment by moment basis. All races and religions welcome. We recieved in voice and movement. It seemed to have a lot to do with intention - as in "Iam ready to recieve now" and surrender in terms of my willingness to enact what I recieve as I recieve it. I developed a way of being in that practice which allowed what came to me to move thru unimpeded.It always feels like a cloak of privacy. As in , I am(volentarily) under divine tuition,and it is not my business or yours to judge or censor. You may notice my recieving with awe for the fact that it's happening. But it's not my business or yours to understand it with the mind and intellect. It was easiest to first become familiar with the feel of this by simply choosing to witness someone else in their act of recieving. The strange thing is that, for me, I never know wether I am being guided until I most surely am. I wait and watch making tenative gestures until the wave lifts my feet somehow free. Now days in drumming a songline will appear. or perhaps in dance an ego ghost will strut a nessesary statement thereby releasing me from the need to carry that thru my daily round. And ... OH thank you! sometimes an angel takes me over and I move with grace. But mostly I'm just an ordinary Bloke.

Mindel talks about secondary process. A synergistic dramtime noticing of symptomatic coincidence that can open doors to increased consiousness. -You can follow the thread of a body symptom say an itch or ,to put this in context , an erection, as you allow your awareness of it to expand ,it may tell you it's story. The same thing works with coincedental symbols that crop up in your world . Let's say that great penis shaped rock that you noticed a moment ago as you drove past Thus God speaks to man. I remember during puberty noticing knotholes in fence boards and wondering what it would feel like...

I like you guys and appreciate the willingness to listen while others bleat blog and bloat. Thanks

Seems that I already have a first blog entry . Thanks. I've never bloged before. I am reminded of the saying . Opinions are like a--holes, everyones got one. Have I been airing mine without the curteousy of giving you all enough infobits to get a handle on who I might be? It takes a bit of communication to become conversant with someone that you haven't got a fix on yet. We make our offerings so that the other may create what we'd like to think of as an appropriate story about who we are. There might be something about context as well, in my choosing to engage in conversations without providing much of an inentikit. I guess what I'm wondering is just exactly who this proposed convenience would be for? And would it be preferable to you, if I took my opinions back to my own private box instead of flaunting them quite so publicly? PS I note certain prickly sensations that may have something to do with day 7. That said I'm not sure I like the inadvertant rating based on how many days since my last orgasm. It seems that shifting my ego identification into being a person who chooses not to experience orgasm is an intensely engaging process,on many levels. I have trouble with the linear progression so common in the lingo of addiction\ recovery. Identifying and updating the, how tall is my pedistal , thing doesn't appeal. I intend to swim around in the muck until I get the feel of things. Yet another elusive potential dreambody on the move. and we're only scratching the surface of the pool....

the bits you've already written, except by copying them into new entries.

Also, you may certainly just continue to comment here and there. Some people prefer that. Some do both. They blog when they have something to say that's not a direct response to another's words, and reply when they want to converse.

Do exactly as you please. I just wanted to remind you of your options, since some of your remarks seemed more in the nature of general musings.