Day 64 or day 11

Just wondering, but after the wet dream, did the cravings come back too? But wow, 64 days is great! I'm inspired.

Hey, anybody hear about religious celibates who are able (without complex tantra or sexual alchemy) to redirect their sexual energy and therefore not have wet dreams? I knew a guy who was a Zen monk, and he said that monks used to wear plain white robes. According to him, the saffron color was an innovation used to hide stains from wet dreams for practitioners who hadn't yet redirected their energy. I'm paraphrasing, but this is basically what he said. I don't think most religious orders use alchemy, so maybe just being really set in the oxytocin state and not dopamine is what does it? Does that seem right? Do dream orgasms tend to occur more when we're not quite as oxytocin as we could be? (For monks, I assume oxytocin means in a religious frame of mind, very reverent, full of inner peace, etc., but it can also be with your romantic partner.)

Amazing what one learns on this forum!

Monks have the advantage of being around other monks, as opposed to porn sites. Also, companionship with one's brothers, selfless service, meditation (feelings of oneness - pair-bonding? - with the Divine) ALL increase oxytocin...which has been shown to ease withdrawal symptoms and cravings. So monks have some advantages you may not.

However, the first Christian monks tried all kinds of things to cut out wet dreams...avoiding certain foods, etc. So clearly it's not easy.

I guess my attitude is that occasional wet dreams may serve to clear the pipes, or something. And, in any case, they give you a great chance to watch the "passion cycle" after orgasm. Then you don't have to wonder if it's real. That strengthens motivation for those of us who want to step around it.

in this post (http://www.reuniting.info/node/1917#comment-6746), also talked about "the Way of the Heart."

It occurred to me that karezza is the perfect preparation for such a spiritual path, because it really only works if you get your jollies from that selfless pleasure. If you hit the dopamine accelerator, you slip into mammal mode. Fascinating.

Maybe this is why I have been pointed to clue after clue about the gifts of this way of making love...and its existence in the esoteric corners of so many traditions.

64 days...congratz! the longest for me was 24days with no porn and masturbation. This board gives me hope. I've been gaining a better understanding of step 1 2 and 3. I am powerless over my addiction once I CHOOSE to engage in it. I do however, if I choose to personally exert myself, have the power to do positive things for my higher self (buddha nature, atman, whatever you wanna call it) so I won't act out on a moment to moment basis. Today, I am 1 or 2 on the acting out scale. I still have my portable dvd player I bought a week ago for my binging. Still need to return it. Having it around to test my resolve, I think (if you people don't think thats a good idea let me know). I am also gonna try some brain supplements that will generate dopamine and serotonine to rebalance my brain (5-htp, L-tyrosine). i'll report back on the effects. I think I should take them especially at the 7 day and 14 day mark, which is when I am getting the anxious cravings and inability to sleep well.

will.i.am

Keep us posted.

*a big hug*

I think testing your resolve comes from the idea that you can beat addiction through self-will. That's the opposite of steps 1, 2, and 3. It's like a man going to war wanting to beat the enemy with his bare hands. Not a good strategy. Armor, guns, coordination with your allies, avoiding all unnecessary risk, maximal efficiency with minimum effort is the tried and true way. It might be less glamorous than Bruce Lee, but life is not a movie! I say return the DVD player, give it away as a gesture of love, or keep it and watch other movies, like comedies or something to get the spirits up, and better yet, watch and laugh with friends.

Heheheee: "Mammal Mode." Reminds me of that song: "You and me, baby, are nothing but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the History Channel." .gif" alt="smiley"/>. But seriously, what did it say about the "Way of the Heart"? I plan to get into sexual alchemy eventually, since my life goal is, after all, spiritual growth. My current path of healing is just a part of that, and I hope a girlfriend will be part of it too. I used to read Edgar Cayce a lot when I was in high school, and I think he quoted the Bible saying something like how a man and woman in true love could move mountains. I'm starting to think there might be more meaning to that than most see. The selfless pleasure is ultimately the same whether it comes from staid meditation or from caressing your lover with only the thought of giving. Maybe the monks who have trouble are the ones who had trouble feeling selfless love. I think it's kinda hard to do that, even for those who willingly choose to take the tonsure. I have my CFS to thank for what I currently have of it, but other people are not so "lucky." Were it not for CFS, I'd probably still be a clueless, ego-driven, arrogant, know-it-all who probably would still be choosing conquest over karezza. I know this cuz even with such a powerful teacher as CFS, it still took me fifteen years. Fifteen years of living hell, and I still wouldn't give up! Glad I finally did. Hear that William? You too have help, in your case, addiction, to give it up. Unless you're as bull-headed as me, it should take far less than fifteen years. By "it" I mean the self-will, the ego, the selfish side, everything that blocks us from the joy of connection with all that is (and sobriety).

Hmm... I haven't experienced "bowel-urge." Ah, but you know what, I've have experienced "vomit-urge." Geez... but it's true. My theory was that when sick in the stomach, a lot of energy goes to that general area, thereby affecting the sex center as well. It's probably the same thing as "bowel-urge" just that you and I are configured slightly differently in terms of which part life energy spills over from.

The author said that what Jesus brought to the planet was "the way of the heart," and she said it was about opening the possibility for human potential to move up to the heart chakra, above the three lower ones. Compassion, forgiveness, selflessness, etc. I think Buddhists would say this was not a new idea. And the Hindus claim that all of Buddha's ideas were already in his "mother religion," Hinduism.

Did you see my article on Cayce? I was amazed at some of the things about sex in his readings: http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/edgar_cayce_on_sex_and_the_tree_of_life

Interesting how we often grow the hard way on this planet, eh? Still, it's great that you have the time to share your insights here. It enriches the forum.

Yup, eastern sages say that the way of the heart is the superior way of reaching enlightenment because the heart's love is already selfless, while all the other practices like Zen are paths of self-power where the ego is trying to destroy itself. It's like taking poison to cure poison. They're for people who need to learn the hard way.

As for Cayce, yup, I read the whole thing, all umpteen pages of it, engrossed with fascination.

I definitely have had to grow the hard way. Hopefully soon I'll wisen up!

Has anyone here NOT had to grow the hard way? I remember being SO bummed when I found out that my path was to learn dual cultivation (as the Taoists call this two-by-two approach). I loved men, but I didn't like the idea of having to learn something so unfamiliar, or persuade a partner to try it (eeek!). It has been fascinating, though, and I'm sure there's still more to learn.

(Yes, that Cayce article is dreadfully long, but I couldn't stop myself. *giggle*)

Yes, we're probably all a bunch of hard-headed people pounding our hard heads on the wall until something breaks. It's a virtue too, though, when properly channelled.

My girlfriends were never too hot about dual cultivation either. Funny, the books always say that women take to sacred sex quicker than men, but I don't think that's the case. It's probably just wishful thinking on the part of the authors.

Actually I was INSTANTLY drawn to the ideas...imagine...a path that combined my two favorite things!

The awkward part was that I assumed a tantra master should show up on my doorstep and initiate ME. That didn't happen, and finally I realized that I was supposed to learn how to inspire a partner. THAT was the beginning of a long, intriguing journey.

Hmm... did you think about hanging around Mantak Chia or one of the other tantric masters? That's what I'll be doing. David Deida too. Not Bubba Free John, though. I might be prejudiced, but right now, I don't like his energy. I think he has something though too, definitely not a quack. Osho and Trungpa seem like cats, though. Does it seem like all the really high masters have died, and no one has yet taken their place? Or have I just not found them yet? I mean, the young crop, like Kornfield, Ken Wilber, etc. I like them a lot, but they don't seem quite to the level of Neem Karoli Baba yet, know what I mean?

Well, maybe I'll meet a tantric goddess and not need any of these guys. Seriously! If there's one out there (you), there's gotta be more.

about visiting Chia early on, but I've also heard kinda ugly things about his behavior from someone who visited his Thailand establishment. (Like his wife was chasing him around with a "frying pan" because he took up with a young girl from the village...and then divorced.)

In any case, I've been discouraged from following *any* gurus. I think it's not my path this lifetime. Still, I like picking up tips now and then...even from the late Da Free John (who renamed himself Adi Da): http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/complete_yoga_human_emotional_sexual_li...

I assure you I'm not all that unique. I'm sure your goddess will show up at just the right time.

Adi Da has died too? See what I mean! This might be another lesson from the universe... telling me to also find my own path.

Gurus showing their humanity bothered me a lot too. I read in one of Kornfield's books that he was like this too but then decided to accept their humanity and see their goodness, realized that jewels can come in ugly packages. Then he was able to open up and gain a lot from their teachings. I didn't like that idea. Kinda blew my ideas about what Enlightenment was out of the water, and Ken Wilber's concept of levels and lines didn't help much either. Since then, though, I've started to soften and agree with them. I'll just make sure to keep my wits about me if I go visiting these human gurus. Things aren't cut and dried it seems on this material plane. Would be nice, but that's not the way God wrote it.

As for my goddess, yes she will. Keep saying that though. It helps me believe it!

at the end of November...and his devotees sat around his body for days, thinking he would "reinhabit" it. Apparently he found better accommodation elsewhere.

that I should add that it wasn't their "humanness" that made me not want to seek out some of these teachers we've discussed. (Although I find hypocrisy hard to tolerate, as a general rule.)

It was the fact that I've sensed I'm supposed to be learning "dual cultivation" or "karezza" or whatever-you-want-to-call it as a spiritual path. These guys who end up caught in the Coolidge effect pattern haven't mastered that. This doesn't mean they don't have some great ideas, well worth reflecting on...and I do often read their materials with interest. I just don't have a burning desire to "sit at their feet."

Ah, I see what you mean. A true master would but wholly outside of the dopamine pattern, but none you found were. Couldn't you learn other things from some of them, not by becoming a fanatical devotee, but just a student? From what I've read, there are a lot of pitfalls, and the higher levels are almost impossible to reach on your own.

learned a lot from them. You can find their work represented on this site. Even Deida's.

But I guess I believe the Hua Hu Ching...because I felt I was given the same message years before a friend lent me his copy. There is more than one way to "skin the cat."

Usually,

The sacred ways of angelic intercourse are taught only by one who has himself achieved total energy integration, and taught only to students who follow the Integral Way with profound devotion, seeking to purify and pacify the entire world along with their own being.

However...it can be possible to open a pathway to the subtle realm and receive these celestial teachings directly from the immortals.

Maybe this latter path is what we're taking here.

In any case, I see no indication that Chia et al. can, in fact, do the former, even though I am extremely grateful to them for what they have salvaged and passed on. It may be that some of the key insights will *have* to be attained the latter way, simply because humanity is so mesmerized by orgasms at the moment. Even Chia's later books are all about "multiple orgasms." Now, I have nothing against multiple orgasms. But, neurochemically, I don't think they advance the ball.

Whatever we're doing here, at least we're having a good time, and not doing each other any harm.

Where is that quote from? The Hua Hu Ching?

Do you do advanced sexual alchemy stuff like what Michael Winn describes in the article here? What do you think of all that wild stuff he describes??? Reading his stuff, it makes it sound like your quote about realms where immortal teachers reside is literal, not just figurative language for "finding it out on your own," but actual literal entities, guides, as some call them.

it's from the Hua Hu Ching, which is one of my favorite little volumes. There's an illegal online version of it here, if you'd like to have a look. http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/H%20-%20World%20Religions%20and... The Hua Hu Ching is supposedly the "secret oral teachings of Lao Tzu," as passed down through his lineage from teacher to pupil. Who knows? But it "speaks" to me.

No, I have not experienced most of what Winn talks about. He's someone I actually wanted to study with, but so far I've not felt guided to do so. I definitely feel there's more to learn. But I'm also grateful for the signposts we've passed (greater harmony, healing, easing cravings). So I sense we're on the right track...and just still building our foundation. Maybe the next piece will come from you and your sweetheart!

I haven't visited any realms, but I do believe that we can get guidance from beyond time and space. I have sometimes been amazed by the information the I Ching can churn out about things that haven't happened yet. I have gone from atheist, locked in left-brain, icy logic to having a very open mind about synchronicity...and what that seems to mean in "quantum" terms. It has been fun to experiment.

I read a little bit of that online version. It was interesting as I'd never heard of anything other than the Tao Te Ching being attributed to Lao Tzu. Of course, the Chinese often attribute things to great figures from the past too, but if the content is of value, that's all that matters.

I think it's people like us, people who once had that icy left-brain slant who then brought it into balance, that will be the ones to revamp western spirituality. It's gonna take someone "bi-lingual" like that, someone able to reach the depths and then come back and explain it all in scientific terms. (Literal bi-lingualness would probably help too, since a lot of stuff comes from the East, but I unfortunately can't help with that.) That's what convinced me that non-orgasmicality was possible without suppression. I just didn't believe it before. The ancients probably did just out of devotion to their teachers, but not everyone has that faith anymore, probably for good reason. I used to be a complete materialist skeptic (my dad's influence on me), and then went all the way over to complete sucker for anything mystical, magical, or psychic. I've vacillated between the poles since then, and hopefully have found something like the proper balance. It might take continual readjustment my entire life.

I'll see what pieces I can provide!

Soul-searching, it seems my experience after my recent dream orgasms have been different than yours. I didn't go so far back into the passion cycle, it seems, but just a little bit. This might be getting a little too personal, but can you describe what your dream orgasm was like? I mean, was there orgasmic sensation as well as ejaculation? The reason I ask is that I generally do whatever I can to retain the ejaculate, meaning I tense the pelvic muscles to hold it in. It generally works unless the orgasmic sensation is quite strong. Then, it seems like the ejaculation reflex has a lot more power and forces itself past my conscious tensing. So I'm wondering if maybe this holding in that I do is what has resulted in me not going as far back into the passion cycle?