Hangover

I appreciate your honesty as well as the fact that you make your own investigations. So far I have not found a "type" of orgasm that lets me avoid the hangover in one form or another, although hangovers do vary in intensity.

Here's a suggestion. Why not try asking your own inner guidance whether skipping orgasm is helping your quest to love or not? I firmly believe that egos are useless in settling such matters. The answer needs to come from beyond the box.

It was through this type of inner quest that I was led to this material in the first place, although I don't usually present the insights here that way. Most people are more comfortable hearing about the neuroscience, personal experiences, or the traditions/recommendations of the past, so I generally start with those points. Yet all those came *after* the initial insight that sexual relationships were somehow a *spiritual* path. As spiritual progress was my top priority, I was open to *anything* that led in that direction. This simplified my choices, and reduced inner conflict.

This reminds me of a discussion I had with a woman who practiced kosher sex for her entire marriage. (In kosher sex, partners sleep in separate beds and do not even hug for close to two weeks of each menstrual cycle - the woman's period, plus 7 days.) She told me, "we do it because God said so, and not for any other reason. The upshot is that it makes the whole ritual of avoiding *and* having sex sacred. In fact, during my pregnancies, when we could have sex whenever we wanted it, something special was temporarily lost. I would look forward to lovemaking on the sabbath because that captured some of the same feeling."

As she spoke, I knew just what she was talking about. I use karezza for the same reason...because I feel like it is part of my spiritual path. (Of course, despite that, I have sometimes experienced orgasm...which is how I learned what helped and what didn't, the neuroscience, and lots about the unsuspected benefits of passing orgasm up. All of that is fascinating to me, and helpful to some others, too. But the real motivation was spiritual, and still is.)

So my suggestion is to find out if, or how, what you're learning about orgasm's effects fits into your spiritual quest. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. Either way, it's likely to clarify your thinking, decrease your conflict about the issue, and make your next step more obvious (whatever it may be).

Gee, have I said that before?...I'm an old man and entitled. Much love to you.

you're pretty awesome yourself. *kiss*

I agree that hangovers are the worst after i've abstained for a time. The thing that sold me on this site was that back in December, I abstained for a little over a week, and then had a really intense orgasm, followed by a few days that were simply miserable.
I wasn't aware of all i know now, but when I used to relieve myself daily, I never noticed terrible swings.... then again, I would constantly medicate with sugar, junk food and more orgasms... when I quit the orgasms, thats when I realized how sensitive i really am to sugar, how much orgasm affects me, and how videogames and eating were all a part of self-medicating. I also was constantly unhappy.

This week, after enjoying orgasms again for the first time in months, suicidal thoughts have returned as a daily thing.
By suicidal thoughts, I dont mean contemplating the act, but simply wishing I didn't have to exist, thinking death would be a welcome circumstance, wishing I were never born. I am a man prone to depression, and orgasm triggers it. That is becoming very obvious.
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to respond to the foot of your post,
I am excited that you are focusing on love. It always comes back to love for me. when I am dysfunctional and at my point of disintegration, what really starts to get to me is the fact that I have so much to offer others, and yet can't seem to keep myself together. I need to love myself. I need to believe that I can.
and the only reason I need to do that is because I firmly believe that my purpose is to be love and express love to others.
I can do that easily when I am fully myself... but I become self-absorbed and blinded to the needs of others when I sense that I am not doing well. I go into a self-preservation mode, and retreat into myself. This robs me of being able to fulfill my true purpose (as i see it), and robs others of experiencing and feeling love from me, affection and attention from me.

and now this seems to come back to this stablizing ability of abstaining from orgasm. I am most fully myself and able to love others when I am not depressed and withdrawn. I am not depressed and withdrawn when I am balanced, and I am balanced with I abstain from orgasm (among other things, like daily yoga, and prayerful mediation).

Best of luck to you, hotspring! please share what you learn about love, and loving.

\---George Washington Hayduke
the light of my eyes is a pearl,
equally emptied to equally shine;
and all or what little joy in the world
seemed suddenly simple, and endlessly mine.
(mewithoutyou)

I found this item interesting: "Reduction of Dopamine Level Enhances the Attractiveness of Male Drosophila to Other Males" http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2642723

A number a men here have reported feeling "less masculine" temporarily after lots of orgasm. Gary and I suspect it's due to chronically lowering dopamine (which still spikes in response to new cues...like thinking about porn...but doesn't easily find stable, ideal levels unless one goes through withdrawal completely first).

This may be how orgasm "takes the starch out" of some men. In this item, fruit flies actually become more "attractive" to other males when they have had their dopamine lowered artificially. It stands to reason that they might also be less attractive to women (I've jokingly referred to this as the "wet seaweed factor" when a guy is depleted due to too much masturbation.)

Anyway, the scientists commenting on this phenomenon in fruit flies posed the possibility that lower dopamine actually means the flies send out a different male-attractive, or less-male-aversive, pheromonal message. Goldenheart may be sending off this kind of signal due after too much "destarching," which makes him feel less masculine to you. Just a thought.

I wasn't suggesting he was masturbating. I was giving you all the credit for de-starching.

I am still inspired by the fact that 18-year olds and younger teens could, with a few weeks of good, solid bonding (daily bonding behaviors with no draining behaviors), become stronger and more confident across the board. I wonder if that might not prove the key for GH, too. He may sense what he needs and keep asking for what would heal him best and fastest and flip on his inner strength...while you, quite naturally, feel like the neediness will go on forever.

Any chance of trying 3 weeks of generous bonding therapy, without setting off any hangovers in either of you? This may not have been possible due to dream orgasms while your system was calming itself a bit, but it may be possible now.

Of course, it's a bit like watching paint dry at first. That's why it's good to make the three weeks fun by adding your own creative touches.

I remember that one sweetheart and I both got into my collection of veils to dance for each other one night. It was magical to see him transform such a feminine article of apparel into a wonderful, amazingly masculine whirl of fiery dance...and it was completely silly and spontaneous. Soaking together is good, too.

The Exchanges are minimalist, but you can certainly enhance them without turning to foreplay. Keep yourselves laughing or being creative, and you won't notice the annoyance of the hangover so much. You might find some inspiration here: http://www.reuniting.info/resources/exchange_of_the_day (refresh page to get a new one at random)

Some thoughts on this stuff. First, I think you can have a strong purpose without being goal-oriented. You could be process-oriented, fulfilled in every moment, expansive, still having goals, but they won't be the point. In my own healing process, I had to do this. In the beginning, I *needed* to get well and lived in frustration and anger. Now, though wellness is still the goal, I live more in the present rather than the future, in acceptance of what is, not trying to force my need upon the universe.

Re: Bringing the divine feminine into spheres like business. Hmm... I hope you continue to share your thoughts on this. At this time, it doesn't seem like the right approach to me, but maybe that's just my own close-mindedness. My thought is that masculine things, like business, are best done with masculine energy. My sense of today's society's problem is that the masculine is far too dominant. Feminism, though a good thing, only increased this because now both men and women are masculine. Everyone's a go-getter, an achiever, a fighter. It's made society materialistic also, where the dominant measure of success if material (i.e. financial). That's not how societies used to be.

I don't see this changing though, at least not for a long time. That's why I seek to by-pass it, to create the option of small tribal-like communities that gives people the option of living in modern, masculine, materialistic society or in a more spiritual society. It's the Taoist ideal. Even back in Lao Tzu's day, he already saw the error of large governments. It's like in the movie Apocalypto, where the contrast between the idyllic small tribe vs. the degenerate, "more civilized" people is very clear. However, unlike Lao Tzu, I don't think humankind could ever revert to the old ways. There will always be an escalation of power resulting in larger and larger government. (By "large government" I don't mean the Republican criticism of Democratic policy. I mean a government controlling a large amount of people.) Most people won't want to live this way, but the example will be powerful. Maybe with telecommuting, the small tribe could still participate in the global economy, producing the best of both worlds. This is my personal solution. Maybe others can find ways to reform society from within, but my way is to do it by example and the offer of alternative from without.

Re: Herbina (i.e. weed). Have you read "Be Here Now" by Ram Dass? Substances give you a glimpse, but once the effect wears off, you've gone nowhere. Do I have more social skills now that I've used alcohol as social lubricant? Nope! I was more social just for that time, and now the real work begins to reproduce the energy I had under the influence while sober. Glenn Morris, and I think Chogyam Trungpa talk about this as a practice. Same with LSD and MJ.

It seems to me, Hotspring, that you already have the perfect job. Massage can be an act of love.

Glad to hear GH is reading Deida! Maybe he'll be able to find the part of you that wants to be devoured whole... or maybe it's the neediness of his current devouring that turns you off. Deida says that the surrender of the feminine during sex is what enables the masculine to open also.