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Waiting for the Sky to Fall
It has been an unusually happy few days for me. And that makes me nervous.
Let me put it to this way. I went golfing with my brothers this morning, armed with the latest gimmick (a.k.a. “swing cue”) that would turn my game around. The result? The same. I sucked. I had a great time, mind you, but I was the same golfer I’ve always been
I KNOW it sounds odd, but I am afraid that the revelation presented at this web site --- the addictive, cyclic quality of fertilization-based sex --- is the same thing for me. It’s just a gimmick. It will pass. I will find myself in the same place I have always been with my marriage and my wife.
In the meantime, though, I seem to be enjoying the mirage.
I seem to be FAR less angry with my wife. I am more “myself,” around her. For years … decades really … I had wondered why my behavior was so different around her … so edgy. I’ve been told on countless occasions that people can’t imagine me angry. With my wife, however, I was always smoldering, and I felt it. Over the past few days, however, I have been very easy-going with my wife, and I have not made a conscious effort.
Withdrawal symptoms from masturbation and Internet “foreplay” have been minimal as well. Work has been busy. I have also been somewhat absorbed with this new concept, mentally. In previous attempts at sobriety, I have sought out, usually unconsciously, outlets with which to get “hits.” Studying the philosophy of bonding-based sex is one thing that is serving that purpose for the present. I am also consciously allowing myself some other alternatives to Internet stimulation and masturbation. I’ve found new musical artists that I’ve liked, downloaded their music, practiced golf (to no avail, apparently), kept up my exercise, and played with the dog. Sounds weird, I know, but I am knowingly attempting to get my chemicals another way.
Along the way, my wife and I have done a number of things together, and I’ve cautiously increased my “touch time” with her. I acknowledge that she, in her own right, is very much recovering from my various transgressions and a lifetime of living with an orgasmic drunk. I have not told her about my “discovery” yet (meaning this site and its content). I’m afraid she’ll see it as a gimmick, too. Still, I doubt that she minds the benefits she is reaping.
I KNOW it must sound odd that I sit, waiting for the sky to fall. It’s just that I have picked myself up SO many times before, I can’t help but brace myself. If the sky somehow doesn’t fall this time, I can’t see how I am worse off for preparing for it.
- bhaggwood's blog
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Comments
Sky or no,
You sound healthy and cheerful. That's good for lots of reasons. And I'm glad to hear about the affectionate touch. Sometimes the less you talk and the more you do, the better.
Quite honestly, there's a *lot* more support for this weird idea than you probably realize. People have stumbled upon it repeatedly - even here in the States. Have you had a look at the free books here?
http://www.reuniting.info/resources/free_online_text_karezza_male_contin...
I was astonished when I read them.
Well Done!
I started this path in January and am 30 years married. My wife is not interested in this stuff but likes some of the changes she sees in me....less irritable, 45 year porn habit gone (well, my eye does linger on the beautiful barely clad woman), less needy (lots of work to be done there), decreased feeling of entitlement for sex, and more demonstrations of affection (it's easier for me to love her if I'm not pissed off for her withholding my fix).
I was really high when I started (about 18 days) and then roller coastered for a couple of months trying to figure it out and now, near 4 months, I'm buckling down to the real work of being a loving man. Marnia's article on Octopii and Gators http://www.reuniting.info/hungry_octopus_syndrome describes our current situation. It gets cloudy but the sky hasn't fallen. Trying to be loving and still not getting what I really want, is leaving me feeling kind of pussy whipped. I'm going to give it a year.
Another challenge I'm facing is my belief that the only way I can get my wife to engage me and give me the physical affection I want (crave) is to get her turned on and wanting sex. That is not the path to sobriety.
Your paragraph about gimmicks and recovery is so true...there is lots of healing to be done.
I am most interested in your story because it seems similar to mine.
Best Wishes and Keep Posting
Che
Transitioning to the Next Phase
Things are still trending upward. I suppose I’ll have to accept it.
To be fair, this attempt at recovery does have a different quality to it. A few years back, when I initially discovered Patrick Carnes and immersed myself in treatment programs that he inspired, the whole experience had a much more manic/depressive feel. Some of that is attributable to the personal and marital anguish that I suffered through as I was learning about myself, and clumsily sharing with my wife in parallel. But part of it was the lack of faith … comfort … instinctive trust … in the solution presented by Carnes and the associated 12-step programs that he advocates for “sex addicts.” Mind you, I was clearly sailing for the right shore for the first time in my life, but I was not necessarily vectoring in on exactly the right harbor. I’m hoping that that is why this approach feels more comfortable, and why I am experiencing fewer highs and lows.
One acknowledged benefit of the Carnes/SA program is that I have already gone for extended stretches without masturbation in my recent past, so I have experience with withdrawal. Mind you, I also have experience with losing my “sobriety,” so it is fresh in my mind what an orgasmic hangover feel like. As an aside, my most recent modality for dopamine cycling and the pursuit of sexual stimulation was the virtual world of Second Life. Second Life relationships, and the support they provide to Marnia’s view of male/female interactions and sexual encounters, is worthy of an extended blog or two by themselves. I will say, however, that of the countless female encounters I had there, the only 2 that I maintained and valued were with women that I did not have a (virtual) sexual encounter with.
What a coincidence.
Anyway, what concerns me most about how to move on with my wife is how to introduce the concept of bonding-based sex? I’m thinking of having her watch one of the narrated presentations on this web site. Excited as I am about moving forward and introducing this to my wife, I am equally apprehensive. After all that has passed between us, it’s admittedly tempting to stay in the “buddy” zone, but I long for type of relationship that I now think may be possible for us … the type we should have had all along, had we known better.
Any thoughts or experiences that others can share we me on the subject?
Can you be patient for a month or two?
I suppose it depends on your current and past situations and behaviors. Are you sleeping together now? Have you routinely slept together in the past? Did your wife occasionally initiate sex in the past?
I haven't slept with my wife for about six years. (You can read the sad story in my blog.) I would be deliriously happy just to be able to cuddle up and sleep with her. Zoe went off and slept in another bed for days or weeks at a time many times throughout our marriage. When she would come back, I would patiently wait, and she would initiate sex a few days later. (Since about two years into our marriage, when she made it plain to me that she didn't like me bugging her for sex, I have let her do the initiating about 99% of the time.)
I haven't succeeded in getting Zoe to sleep with me in recent times, but I have a feeling that if we did, and I just patiently waited as usual, I think she would propose that we have sex again, perhaps after a month or two of experiencing the new, more loving and appreciative me. At that point, I would make a counter-offer to make love without orgasm, as we did a few times in our first year of marriage. She rarely had orgasms and didn't seem to have much interest in having them, so I don't think she would have any objection.
So that's my suggestion to you: Just be loving and practice the bonding behaviors as much as you can, ideally sleeping together. Don't try to initiate sex at all, at least for a couple months; be patient (and meanwhile enjoy whatever cuddling you can get) and wait for her to initiate sex.
Of course I recognize that maybe your wife _never_ initiates sex, or there may be other circumstances that would make that plan unlikely to work, so use your own judgment. Good luck!
Yes I Can
Having been pitched a sexual shut out for a few years myself, waiting is not really an issue for me, as long as there is something at the end of the rainbow. Prior to reading some of Marnia's stuff, "something" was orgasmic sex with a loved one (or lacking that opportunity, with myself), but I DID want a lasting, intimate connection as part of that. Depite the haze of the orgasm and the accompanying hangover, I still got that part. The concept of discriminating between sex-for-orgasm and sex-for-bonding had simply not occurred to me before. Now that it has, I'm pretty clear in my mind about what I want. I don't expect my wife and I to go directly to the Exchanges; we have more work to do and more wounds to heal first. Still, I think I have absorbed the basic concept, and brief cuddling interludes have already commenced. My wife has even watched Marnia's YouTube presentation!
I'll make sure to read your story, because it seems similar to mine, but different in many respects, too. Prior to discovering the material on this web site, I had already come to the conclusion that indefinitely waiting for an intimate connection was not in my best interests, or my wife's. I can wait a LONG time --- months, maybe even years if we are making some tangible progress --- but not forever. I'm not looking for someone to simply share expenses with while we co-habitate, or even a roommate. I want to love and be loved. I deserve it.
So do you.
Inspiring stuff
We *shouldn't* settle for something that is inferior, although I've realized that I did need to redefine "inferior" and "superior" to find new territory. Clearing up our perception with greater balance helps keep the mind flexible and open to new insights.
Speaking of inspiring. Here's part of a private message I got from another man, which I thought some of you would enjoy:
It will not pass
Hi. That was an interesting quote in the last post. bhaggwood, don't get discuraged.
Let me share a comment form my wife which she wrote on an anniversary card a number of years ago.
This was written about a year after we had begun experimenting with Sacred Sex. Love only gets stronger the longer you do this. Hugging is magical in this respect. It is what caused you two to fall in love in the first place and, if reawakened as an important activity, the 'in love' feeling will come back and stay this time. My wife and I are way more in love now than ever before. Sacred Sex is what did this for us. You will notice that your relationship with others in your life will change as well. Love will fill your world. The more you learn to give love, the more you will receive.
We support you with our thoughts and prayers. And this new found joy will not pass unless you let it by stopping what you are doing right now. Go forward and don't look back. Sacred Sex only becomes more and more fulfilling as time passes.
Thanks Sam
I am 30 years married and 4 months on this path. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Great having you here, Sam
It makes such a difference to new arrivals to have other explorers report back with their experiences.
As Gary says, the glow from a kiss can only come from one place...the primitive part of the brain. And what cues speak to that part of the brain to light itup? Bonding behaviors.
There are times when I am struck by how good it feels to hug Gary. It's just delicious...like the high of snuggling a puppy or something. Sounds corny, but these are the feelings that build the foundation for other states of bliss because they open the heart/quiet our defenses...and allow us to recognize our oneness. And not just with our lover...as Sam points out.
When you can find a way to include intercourse in the mix, you have a sense of satisfaction and wholeness...and the magic of bonding behaviors. And if you pass up the dopamine roller coaster ride, the good feelings hang around. Yum.
Puppy Dog?
My wife and I were reading this thread together last night and I asked incredulously, "Snuggling a puppy?"
"Yeah!" she replied. "It's a girl thing."
I snorted and she giggled, then poked me in the side and said, "Heel."
Puppy Dog Response
HEY! She's a really cute dog.
And, as the saying goes, "Any port in a storm."
Speed Bumps
I’m a little more agitated with my wife than I have been in a few weeks. Still, I’m better than I normally would be, under the circumstances. Let me explain what they are ...
First, I showed my wife the narrated slide presentation on “Cupid’s Poison Arrow,” last Sunday night. She listened intently and, when it was over, said that she agreed with most of the points made. Still, she went on to “go negative,” relating many of the things that I did wrong in our marriage and sex life, while acknowledging no shortcomings of her own. Clearly, I have been in the grips of the orgasmic dopamine cycle my entire adult life, while my wife has been a "pull-the-covers-to-our-necks" sexual conservative. Still, we BOTH wanted the benefits of bonding-based sex on some level, and that was my point. I was hoping that the presentation explained both the problems and the solutions to our relationship in a non-blaming way. So I was a little upset when things took the turn that they did, openly saying that we should cut the conversation off … it was going the wrong way … not terribly so, but it was off-target. We eventually went to our corners, and to sleep.
As someone once told me, expectations in a relationship are often just premeditated resentment
Despite the previous evening's sour note, my wife seemed upbeat in the AM, and we set about our days. Perenially on the go, she finally called me at about 7:30 PM, saying that she would be home by 8:00, and we could take an exercise walk together then. She showed up at 9:00 PM. I had taken my own walk anyway, knowing that my wife tends to run late, but was willing to go again if she wanted. She didn’t, so we began talking about her day, wherein she was working with a real estate customer (and friend of the family) whose 2-flat she has had listed for over a year. She pronounced that, if the current offer-to-purchase did not come through, she told her customer/friends that WE would buy the property.
I was aghast! We had talked about this kind of thing many times, and I consistently said the she could not move forward on real estate unless the BOTH of us are involved and in agreement. As I said to her, once again, “I would not do that to you.” I KNOW she has a tendency to be emotional, not clinical, about real estate investments, and in her saner moments so does she. I was especially troubled in this case, since she had created an expectation with a friend of the family, and I would look like the bad guy if we withdrew. In this tense discussion, the most upsetting thing was that my wife did not … and rarely does … admit she was wrong. She pulled out all of her unfair gambits …”as if YOU have shown good judgment in the past ...,” but I’m pretty experienced at countering those, and never really lost my composure. If there is anything to be proud of, I maintained a reasonable level of …. “anger” is not really the right word … I was simply justifiably upset. That, in and of itself, supports the claim that breaking the orgasmic chemical cycle helps to keep emotional spikes in check. Coincidentally, I am exactly 2 weeks from my last orgasm.
Still, all of these recent encounters have sort of taken the bloom off of the rose. I was pretty high on my discovering of bonding-based sex, but the “bonding” part has been less than optimal. Mind you, I am undeterred. I KNEW this would not go in a straight line, but knowing it and feeling it are two different things.
I guess a little reality has set in.
Interesting argument
Sometimes it's interesting to see how people miss where the other is coming from, emotionally.
You were needing respect in the form of being consulted about such decisions, but what your wife heard was, "you did something wrong/you have bad judgment." So instead of telling you that her feelings were hurt or the relationship felt threatened by the implication she heard (whether or not you actually said it), she fired right back to defend herself, which is an almost automatic response in many of us.
I'm going to venture a guess that your wife is NEVER going to admit that she is wrong in an argument unless you find a way to make the argument safe. A safe argument is one in which she hears your needs and feelings without hearing them as an attack on her, and also one in which her needs and feelings are also heard. And furthermore, admitting that one was wrong is overrated; the important thing is to understand the reasons for one's own behavior and how one could do better in the future.
If I were you, I would try the following steps:
1. Express your complaint explicitly in terms of what you were feeling and needing/wanting: "When you make decisions without consulting me, I feel angry because I am wanting (respect, choice, whatever...)"
Even if you put it this way, she may still hear it as an attack out of habit. If so, try asking her to tell you what she heard you say. If she replies with some statement about herself rather than you, such as, "You're saying I have bad judgment," then you know she is mishearing you and you can try to reiterate until she can hear your feelings as something other than a criticism.
2. Make a real effort to understand and legitimize what she was thinking and feeling when she made that decision. It sounds to me like she was trying, rather nobly, to help out a friend, and until you recognize this, she will be less able to hear any criticism from you.
This is all basic NVC stuff, a method I really cannot say enough in favor of: http://www.cnvc.org/
*sigh*
First of all, it always seems like something blindsides me with a whack in the head right around that two week mark. So you're right on script. Small comfort, but some perhaps.
If you can avoid over-reacting despite the fact that you are clearly right and she is clearly wrong,
the crisis seems to blow away - one way or the other, and often in an unforeseen way.
You've passed the first test (not beheading anyone in a fit of rage) admirably. Well done. So now it will become interesting. Just keep trying to get some bonding going...even lying still on the couch in each other's arms for a few minutes during the day. (The less discussion, the better.) And see if the crisis dissolves.
I wish I could get through to women what an incredible gift a man willing to experiment with these ideas is. And how the past is completely irrelevant. Completely.
But, it looks like you gents will have to figure out ways to get the job done. You will. You are. You have my sympathy, but it can't be any harder than explaining to the men in my life why they'd want to try this.
Keep us informed.