Experiences in Dual Cultivation

How lovely for you both. Thank you for sharing your experience...and most of all for your open mind(s).

Believe it or not, I don't like structure either. ;-) I think it's better for people to understand the principles and then design their own bonding-behavior based lovemaking...with a slow start. The structure's just there for folks who find it convenient. Even then, I'm sure people tweak it to suit.

Wishing you all the very best.

Useful for all of us. I like Richardson's work, too.

WARNING: Sexually explicit material below.

These descriptions of people entering new relationships in this new way confuse me. Is something wrong with me because I like the feel of naked skin against mine? That the fleshy softness of a woman's loins delights me, especially when its wetness touches my rock-hard member? That moment is sheer bliss. That I feel loved when she's stroking it? That something just doesn't feel right if I'm not getting any? That our first moment was special because she revealed her body to me and merged with me, and that this wouldn't have happened if we agreed to sleep clothed together for an initial period?

Note: None of the above implies orgasm. That's a temptation too, but it's not one I truly want or need, as irresistable as it is sometimes. These other things, however... it feels wrong to start a relationship another way. Don't get me wrong, I might enjoy going slow in the beginning, but I mean when the time comes to be intimate for the first time.

Maybe not all people have these needs I have? Maybe I'm still working through some issues? Or maybe I'm just too goddamn romantic! ;-)

"Is something wrong with me because I like the feel of naked skin against mine? That the fleshy softness..."

Oh, stop! STOP!!! LOL! :-)

NO ONE is dissing the pleasures of sex!

"and that this wouldn't have happened if we agreed to sleep clothed together for an initial period?"

Are you saying that if you had agreed to sleep clothed together for an initial period, that you never would have gotten around to actually having sex? You would have broken up before then? Why?

I'm living proof that you can jump into bed with a beautiful woman without having sex, and have a wonderful time. My wife-to-be and I got into bed, naked, almost daily, for a month or two before we got married, but we didn't have sex (by my suggestion) until after we got married. I also abstained from masturbating for several weeks before we got married.

I think the point of two-weeks-sleeping-together-clothed-without-sex is to give the bonding program time to take hold and gain dominance over the fertilization program, and to give both partners an opportunity to learn discipline, to be able to resist the temptation to go for orgasm when they finally have sex. It's also a drying-out period, to get over the effects of previous orgasms, so the partners can experience sex without previous orgasms clouding the picture. The clothing just cuts down on the excitement and temptations a little bit. I'd say the clothing isn't necessary if you already have some self-discipline.

I guess I'm really old-fashioned. I want to know my partner pretty well and be committed to each other before having sex with her. On the other hand, my standards are much lower for getting into bed with someone and just cuddling and so on without sex. (I'd prefer that she's not leprous... :-)) So that's where my fantasies run these days - mostly just lying in bed with some beautiful woman, cuddling or gazing lovingly into each others eyes, maybe sometimes practicing karezza, but definitely not going for orgasm. And that's how I want it in real life, too.

Maybe I should call them "visualizations", not "fantasies". :-)

I don't see how we humans could do anything but help each other by such snuggling...while we're waiting for balance or a Big Day or whatever.

A slow approach has the added advantage of showing us that what really benefits us in intimacy isn't "just the orgasm."

Who would have thought???

No, we would've gotten around to having sex. ;-) I guess the gist of what I'm trying to ask is if it's wrong to begin a relationship normally before evolving to karezza. That way feels better to me, but this site seems to say we should begin right away with the non-orgasmic bonding and never touch on hot sex at all. I understand why, in theory. It's that if you start off normally, with hot sex, you might not want to stop, and also, the dopamine oscillations will have started, beginning the process of habituation and all that. My feeling, however, is that the honeymoon period, allowed to flow naturally, helps build intimacy, and if interfered with might create resentments and misunderstandings that could negatively affect the budding relationship. That said, one's intention to be non-orgasmic should still be stated up front, so there are no surprises. Things eventually will cool on their own and often evolve into a more quiet, but still good relationship. Then, karezza will be natural and prevent the seven year itch problems. Of course, in Marnia's experience, her relationships never got that far, so for someone with that kind of POIS issues, then insisting on no orgasm from the beginning might be the only way to go.

starting slow is wise because biology is going to win on occasion anyway. ;-) By beginning with bonding behaviors, you have a more solid base of trust at a subconscious level, which helps see you through when you (inevitably) go through the orgasm cycle. It also helps you to sort what issues are real from issues that are just "post-orgasmic edginess."

Incidentally, I don't consider myself to have POIS. I have never felt the kinds of extreme symptoms those folks report.

At the same time, I think orgasm sets off a neurochemical cycle in all of us. We're just more, or less, aware that our perception and even our sense of well-being is affected. It's a very easy cycle to blame on everything else going on in our lives.

The only way one sees the truth is to compare a few weeks of orgasm-less affection with a couple of weeks of conventional sex. Most people don't make that experiment, so they simply do not see it.

Well, Discordia, I'll relate my experience, for what it's worth. Before Yvette I had two long term relationships, and they started off with us as friends, hanging out, having fun, and then developed into romance when one night I finally got up the courage to make a move. They each developed problems, and while some might attribute it to orgasm, it still doesn't seem like it to me. After the honeymoon period, there'd be long stretches of no orgasm. We didn't consciously do daily bonding, though, and I can't remember exactly how much bonding we did, just that it did happen. (Probably not enough.) My feeling is that we were simply incompatible. However, the first one went for seven years, the second two, so we remained committed to each other. The relationships, despite their problems, evolved into very close friendships. At the time, I was happy with that, and had there not been problems, I might've stayed with these women for the rest of my life. (At least that's the way I felt with the first one. The second one, I was much older by then and began to realize I needed a woman who I could related to on a spiritual level, meaning she would have to share my interest in delving into the depths of our hearts with me.)

So... these don't really count as proper experiments, but I hope it helps a bit.

With Yvette, now that the honeymoon period is over, we'll see if I can get it back on track with daily bonding behaviors. Not that that's really possible long distance, though, so it is what it is. I'm keeping track of anything I notice during any orgasmic hangover periods. I don't think it was orgasm that caused the problems, but hey, who knows. I'm open. It seemed, however, to come from past baggage we both brought in, in her case fear of being controlled, and in mine, what I call "Good Boy Syndrome" and being willing to accept affection that she doesn't fully want to give.

Marnia, I think that's great advice. I hope there isn't a next time, but if there is, I hope I have the discipline to apply it. With Yvette, I'm doing the experiment now.

to your experiences. Hope it helps!

*big hug*