Guilt

Marnia made a comment on another blog about not liking to use guilt as a motivator for changing behaviors. I believe I know what she meant, and I don't really think I'm contradicting that thought, but I did want to explore this further. I think because there's more to this than meets the eye when it comes to guilt. So bear with me while I "think out loud" for a bit.

The basic definition of guilt is to attribute responsibility to someone for committing a perceived transgression of a cultural, social, religious, or ethical taboo. The difficulty comes in determining in some cases whether a particular action actually transgresses a valid taboo. Some are fairly clear and agreed upon, like murder in most cases would be considered taboo. Sexual exploitation of women and children would generally be considered taboo. But there can be a wide difference of opinion on something like sex outside of marriage, for instance.

There are two basic types of guilt. One is guilt ascribed by outside sources, which the individual in question may or may not feel guilty about. The other is guilt one ascribes to themselves because they feel they have transgressed a taboo, which others may agree in general, have wide opinions on, or feel it isn't a real taboo.

An example of the first would be a judge and jury deciding a case. Eventually, they may bring a "guilty" verdict upon the crime. The person broke the law. This law along with a judge and jury are forces outside the individual in question. And that individual may or may not perceive that he/she is guilt of said crime. Or another similar example is when a parent tells their child that they cannot play with Bobbie down the street anymore because he is a bad apple. The child if he/she goes to play with Bobbie, may or may not feel guilty for breaking his mom's law, but when she finds out, she would most certainly feel the child is guilty and treat him/her as such.

In those cases, there is usually some authority, often backed by a community's cultural standards as to right and wrong. Violation of those standards constitutes guilt. And when one feels guilty, the concept is then to reconcile the guilt. In the case of the convicted criminal, he/she will then go to jail, or whatever other punishments are dolled out, in the hopes that they will not do that again. In the later, possibly a good talking to, or humiliation (not a good idea), or other punishment like spanking, time out, removal of privileges, etc. And the hope is if the individual comes to a moment of experiencing real guilt, that they will then take pains not to transgress that law again. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

An example of inner-induced guilt is if I were to say something to someone I felt was mean--perhaps I meant it in a bad way--and then later felt guilty for saying it. The guilt if dealt with properly would prompt me to return to that person and ask forgiveness and ensure that the relationship hasn't suffered a fracture. The person in question may have taken it as hatred toward them, or it may not have even registered on their radar as having any ulterior motives of hatred, and they never gave it a second thought. Often when you come to ask forgiveness, they'll initially go, "Huh? What are you talking about? You didn't offend me."

In each of these situations, there is healthy guilt and destructive guilt. Healthy guilt results when we have violated someone's rights to be treated as an equal member of the human race, or even other sentient beings, or even plants, the environment, etc., and it causes us to correct the problem. The guilt gets resolved and dealt with; the relationship is restored. You move forward in a healthy manner.

But an unhealthy and destructive guilt happens when instead of being resolved, the guilt is allowed to fester and spiral one into a depression. This especially becomes an issue if one feels they are helpless to resolve the guilt. This can be encountered in what we deal with here. One might feel guilt for masturbating, but feel helpless to stop. So the guilt never gets resolved, and just makes us feel bad inside whenever we give in. But unable to resolve it, we always feel bad, and it builds until we either learn to ignore it, explain away the guilt, or sink into a depression that affects the rest of our life.

Sometimes this unhealthy guilt is brought on by a standard imposed either from without or within that the person feels is real but is unattainable. For instance, some parents can be perfectionist, and demand that their children perform at a level of perfectiher on in school, sports, or other activities that constantly leaves the child feeling guilty for not being able to perfectly fulfill their parent's lofty goals. The taboo will be broken because the bar is set so high it nearly insures failure, and along with that comes guilt that cannot be resolved, no matter how hard the child may try.

An example of an inner-sourced guilt is a friend of mine I used to know a long time ago, actually my wife's friend, who constantly apologized for things she had thought about a person. At church, she'd always go at an altar call. My wife said sometimes she was annoying when she came to apologize for every negative thought she may have had. Her inner conscience was out of balance and put guilt in her for the smallest things. While she sought to reconcile them, her mind never stopped accusing her and so she always felt guilty for things. That becomes unhealthy guilt.

To bring this back around to this site, I've seen people here express feelings of guilt for slipping up. Sometimes, that could be a good thing, if the person is motivated to fix it, and treats the guilt more as a warning signal than a condemnation of them personally. But it can also be destructive if one experiences it as "you bad, bad, evil person you!" The later route will not bring about healing or reconciliation. It will only serve to sink the person further into the activity because they begin to link their identity as a person to the concept that they are a bad person, who can't help but masturbate. (Pretty much where I've been before.)

In that type of situation, a person will deal with it in one of three basic ways. One, change the conditions that make one guilty. In the case of masturbation, there is plenty out there that one can find which tells you that masturbation is all right, there's no harm from doing it, as often as you want, and as long as you want (within reason). If most all your teaching up to that point has said it is wrong and bad, it is easy enough to find material that counters that, and you can change the conditions which produce guilt, so that when you masturbate, you no longer feel any guilt about it.

The only danger with that is, if the person really should feel guilty about something, to fix it, but in essence dismisses it, then the problem is swept under the rug and festers, to one day emerge from the depths as a scary monster. Going the other way, often there are things people feel guilty about that they shouldn't. In those cases, changing the conditions is not only a valid way to deal with the guilt, but probably the only valid manner to fix it.

Two, the person can resolve the guilt by addressing the problem causing it. Somethings by their nature are never totally resolved. If I decided to drive drunk one night and ended up in a wreck, killing a child, or anyone, I would feel guilt about that. And while that guilt might diminish over time, it would never totally go away. There's no way to "fix" that mistake short of building my own time machine, going back and correcting my error. But sometimes, things can still be done that aid in addressing the guilt. For instance, maybe I would make a personal visit to the family I've affected, and give my sincere apologies, donate money for funeral expenses, offer to help them in other ways, seek reconciliation with them. It won't bring the person back, but it may at least resolve some issues with his/her relatives who've experienced a tragic loss at your hands.

Three, continue to feel guilty and sink into a depression, or worse, further into suicidal tendencies because you can't face the horror of what you've done. This is the most destructive route, and where you don't want guilt, whether real or not, to lead you to. Based on the circumstances, you'd want to deal with it via one or two above. But if the guilt provides the catalyst to make some beneficial changes to your life, to avoid the disharmony of broken relationships between you and others, or our environment, then it has served its purpose.

But keep in mind, good guilt doesn't involve fear and condemnation, but a warning and motivation to point one's self in the right directions. On this site, the right directions is to learn self-control so that we can regulate the inner child that wants more, more, more, and more until we pop.

Comments

JRsun76's picture

Good point

It seems like most of here experience the unhealthy guilt. It serves a purpose, probably like depression, stress, and anxiety. I think Marnia's just used to trying to dislodge the unhealthy stuff because 99 percent of the guilt here is probably unhealthy.

Interesting thoughts. This has kind of recently come up in my recovery too. I used to feel guilty about acting out, but in ways I dont think I was really aware of. It gets kind of blurry when you are in those states. Thanks for the clarity on this.

Marnia's picture

Thanks, Cole

I've been reading a psychology book that makes similar points using a bit different language. I'll put a big excerpt up before too long, but here's a short version of how this particular author frames similar issues. Made sense to me.

He draws a distinction between "guilt" and "shame." "Guilt" is a feeling connected to a behavior that needs to be corrected, forgiven, or otherwise dealt with. But some had parents/teachers, whatever who "shamed" them. Shame is far worse according to this book, because it targets the person's self-worth. It makes them a "bad person." They can't correct "the offense" in the same way they can correct a behavior.

Interestingly, rage is one way of trying desperately to validate the self, in reaction to shame, which is destroying the self completely.

Knowing this could make it easier to support people who are raging. They need validation...as well as the knowledge that whatever they did was just an error and doesn't mean they are a bad person.

Intriguing stuff. I'm starting to understand that "rage = unresolved shame."

The challenge for me is that a person who is raging *thinks* they are seeing enemies clearly, even when they aren't. So what do you do in that case?

Rage response

Marnia wrote:
I've been reading a psychology book that makes similar points using a bit different language. I'll put a big excerpt up before too long, but here's a short version of how this particular author frames similar issues. Made sense to me.

He draws a distinction between "guilt" and "shame." "Guilt" is a feeling connected to a behavior that needs to be corrected, forgiven, or otherwise dealt with. But some had parents/teachers, whatever who "shamed" them. Shame is far worse according to this book, because it targets the person's self-worth. It makes them a "bad person." They can't correct "the offense" in the same way they can correct a behavior.

Makes perfect sense to me. I think that lines up with the distinction I was making, but didn't put just that way, but it fits.

Quote:
Interestingly, rage is one way of trying desperately to validate the self, in reaction to shame, which is destroying the self completely.

The challenge for me is that a person who is raging *thinks* they are seeing enemies clearly, even when they aren't. So what do you do in that case?

Good point. I think there are different reactions that can be had to shaming, but certainly rage is one such response. It's hard because in that state, thinking they are bad, they naturally think everyone else things that too, so even the slightest validation of that can send them on the defensive/offensive as the case may be.

I think the only thing that would work is if you can show them enough acceptance and love, it can slowly work to deprogram them when someone doesn't react as if they are bad, even in the face of some negative actions.

Marnia's picture

Thanks

Yes, I've heard rage is actually a healthier reaction to shame than just curling up into a ball and *believing* one is "shameful," or denying the feelings, or having to stay in an altered state (via drugs, porn, whatever) to deaden the feelings. At least with rage, the energy moves, the situation destabilizes, and things come into focus...often leading to useful insights.

Acceptance is good...and yet, as I discovered here on the forum, too much venom from a rager makes *other* people feel unsafe, making the entire forum useless for those folks. In short, as hostess, I face a balancing act between longer-term members and new ones. Also, it can seem kinda phony to gush "posting love" toward someone who is imagining you are their enemy. Maybe in person it would work better. Smiling In any case, I intend to test your approach some more if the occasion arises.

Certainly

you are right. Anything perceived as phony will likely be reacted to as such, i.e., not real. Of course, this is easier to pull off in person one-on-one. On an Internet forum like this, there are two problems. One, it is easy to forget that the screen name you are responding to is a real person on the other end, and that allows someone prone to rage to act that out even more so, especially in a situation like this where we are mostly anonymous. Two, without the body language, it takes more skill to write in a way that gets that across effectively, so it is less likely to succeed depending on how the person takes what you are saying.

And you have the concern to keep the forum healthy for everyone to participate in, and not let one raging person dominate it and scare others off. Can't allow "abusive" behavior even if that person is experiencing some difficult things and needs help. An Internet forum may not be the best place for such a person anyway...if they can't control it. But we're talking extremes here. The occasional fly-off-the-handle, if dealt with well, shouldn't derail things.

Lazarus Arisen's picture

Some days

I find myself leaning either way on whether rage or something else (like my current retreat/binge rut) is the healthier response to the shame/guilt thing. An upbringing that taught me what a dirty perverted disgusting piece of filth I was and punished me for the sin of being born with a male genital system, had me accepting it as truth in the absence of any other guiding light - so it became a cyclic self fulfilling prophecy. I figured it was no wonder that I found myself learning in the totally f'd up way I learned about sex or my own body, because it seemed an appropriate choice/means by which to learn, since I was taught that I was filthy. But at some point as I realized I'd been lied to and punished/abused (mostly emotionally/mentally, but not without physical punishment as well), the rage kicked in, and had me deliberately acting out/exhibiting the behaviors - "well, mom, if I'm that disgusting, I might as well take it to heart and behave as I am". Granted, as I passed from child to preteen thru puberty and teens to early 20's, I let the training become real/who I was - and as I felt both guilt AND shame for my behaviors/expression, it simply let me chalk up the absence of being attractive or desirable as a romantic or physical partner to dear old mom being right - so at that point I was justified in my behaviors and indulgences, because an adopted attitude of "no one would want me" made me not try particularly hard to prove to her or myself otherwise - so I shunned romantic or physical possibilities. I wanted/needed the nurturing/bonding with another human being, but realized in that mindset that "I probably don't deserve it anyway".

Now - take that endless cycle, and and evaluate it in terms of bonding myself to someone who does not communicate and is totally passive aggressive about the physical side of the marriage - lo and behold, she doesn't want me because I'm that disgusting thing I always was, right? So of course it's safer in the bubble - in the bubble, I'm actually attractive and desirable, not just insincerely told so. At least, that's how the bubble used to work, until I essentially "trained" myself to not fantasize at all when solo binging - to only look inward/focus on myself and my body when enjoying the safety of the bubble releases. First, hurt and anger over spousal rejection leads to aversion to spousal fantasies when indulging - but ever lurking, "I'm better off in the bubble world because I won't be rejected or degraded for things I did", and ultimately, the karma fulfills itself - "I'm trapped in the self-focused bubble world because it's all I deserve anyway", with the added benefit of "Oh, and I don't have to face her frustrations with my post-surgery impotence while I'm in here either".

So the bubble has its shame/guilt components, but can be triggered by hurt/rejection/anger feelings - and in the bubble, the anger/rage can be vented without affecting anyone around me, and does not affect the positive parts of the relationship.

And while I couldn't quantify magnitude or duration - bubble binge solo hangover and the rarer joint activity with her hangover do have some very profound differences.

Marnia's picture

*sigh*

That's quite a story, LA. It's hard not to just nod along and say, "I see his point. That certainly explains his choices."

However, I hope you don't still thing you are flawed or disgusting. That must be very hard to live with if you do.

How do you experience the differences in the hangovers? We were intrigued to see that studies are beginning to reveal that there's a neuochemical difference.

*big hug*

We've both got our work cut out for us.

I think in your case, there are two areas you can work on.

One is in reprogramming your brain so that you do not see yourself as something shameful. A particular activity may not be healthy for you mentally and/or physically, but there is no sense in creating shame. As Marnia pointed out, shame is a negative feeling that locks us into a prison, that stamps us with a category of being that is negative.

Healing doesn't come from from seeing sex, masturbation, other other experiences of pleasure as dirty and shameful, thus making me dirty and/or shameful, rather where it destroys relationships, as a problem to fix, a "sickness" to heal. And part of that healing comes with realizing you're accepted as you are. That allows you to move forward, but only when *you* accept yourself where you are at. One you have really come to that place, then it doesn't matter to your own well-being if she is offended when you can't maintain an erection. When you are at peace with yourself, other's discontentment with you don't affect you. Then in that state, you can actually not only improve yourself, but over time it will allow the other person to improve themselves.

Two, by initiating some of the bonding behaviors Marnia lists on this site and in her book. That will engender trust and a sense of bonding between you. Some of those you can do without her direct consent, like my wife can't turn down a back rub. That is a good one for her because it doesn't even innately initiate any sense of "I'm after sex." It's just a good moment of bonding, and I know she enjoys them. She has yet to turn one down. There may be similar types of touch and mutual grooming activities that she really enjoys but aren't directly linked with sexual triggers. Focusing on those can generate the brain chemicals that encourage the bonding behaviors and feelings of love. Then once that has taken its "toll," she may be more open to some of the other non-orgasmic-goal-oriented sexual behaviors listed in the book.

IOW, it may be a much more gradual thing for her, build her up to it so she doesn't fear the change, realizes the benefits and so is more willing to give up her perceived benefits of orgasm every time.

It's a long road, yes. But one worth traveling. I hope and pray that you can find your way to a better relationship through the "jungle" of emotions and life.