There's retreat, and there's retreat

Submitted by Lazarus Arisen on Sun, 2010-02-28 06:28
Community topics: 
marriage repair
masturbation addiction recovery

Now that I've actually stuck my head back out of my shell, I'll try not to make a post that requires trilogy (or more) status. I'm not sure Peter Jackson would touch this one with a ten foot pole.

I fully acknowledge that I was kidding myself over things going so well after weeks of total celibacy, solo and joint, in the marriage. I kidded myself that there wouldn't be a backslide/ground lost. That was a lot of my retreat, really getting upset by a joint failure in both of us to break the celibacy status. Granted, it didn't help that I got manipulated, and a very strong historic trigger by her that led to a totally instinctive, furious release for both of us - the exact opposite of what I'd expressed that I wanted to avoid like the plague, for sex to return to something that was done strictly for the hunger of a get off. Yeah, it was a crash for me, both for myself, and for what I wanted for us as a couple. Once I got past the whole disappointment and self-loathing for being weak - not weak because of orgasm hunger, but weak that I fell prey to a deliberately manipulative move to trigger the hunger, I got even more torqued because of the (obviously now visible/trackable) return of her particular hangover behaviors. There I was, wanting to try to cuddle/bond in the afterglow, and there I was, finding us not having anything of the kind, but her typical "Ok, I came, now I'm wide awake, and wanna watch TV", so there we were not even cuddling/bonding afterward, which was always my core need. And then, I was even dumber, actively initiating a few subsequent events hoping that maybe I could get that after a slower gentler less furious bout. But nope, I was kidding myself yet again. Even the simple bonding behaviors died off - she was no longer interested in the massage for her arthritis/joint and muscle pain relief, and the return bonding of post-ED therapy/it being a joint effort died off too.

And, typical me, I retreated into my bubble - the one where I masturbate to avoid desire for her, to try to minimize responding to her, retraining myself to not associate sex with her at all. Thank God my particular masturbation addictions were never porn associated, or I'd have probably dropped some money at an adult store. And I'm still not out of that bubble yet, not doing a daily count, because the non-porn masturbation can be something that I do compulsively almost daily, or then not for a few days and then multiple times in one day. The rather screwed up part of that is that the bubble feels just as safe, if not safer, than a 7+ week period of total abstinence. That's the hardest part of it to beat, when the primary reason you dive into self pleasure, with or without orgasm, is not because of the orgasm, but because of the relatively safer feeling you get in that world because it keeps you from even thinking about doing something with your partner.

Having not been at the site for weeks, literally, obviously I've got a lot of catching up to do, to seek out and try to learn from things that others say. It's so often funny that I read something that someone has said, and feel I have something relevant to add - but I avoid it even tho I have genuine "been there done that/experienced that" experience on things ranging from non-orgasm self stimulation to prostate health to the plusses and minuses of ejaculation. In some ways, as fucked up as it is for someone who is intensely sensual/sexually as I am, with such a strong focus on only my spouse, you'd actually find me feeling that I am almost in the same boat as those here who are trying to improve themselves in this area but don't have a partner/spouse/girlfriend/lover. But right now, I feel that anything I say can be cold/clinical, even tho factual, and between the abusive mother past and the past (hell, let's face it, ongoing) issues with self pleasure, and a spouse who has now made it patently obvious that she's in it for her orgasm alone, with only token minimalist efforts towards either my orgasm or my desire to bond without it, I know that I carry a strong bias. Were I to start on a diatribe, I'd be encouraging everyone to go a full celibacy route, but just because that's what is safer or saner or healthier for me, doesn't mean it's healthy or realistic for anyone else. Even tho for a male to endure the abuse/molestation that I endured is a much rarer thing, I'm vaguely caught up on the fact that there have been some issues related to that as well here. Oddly enough, I've seen some of the back and forth here, and learned something valuable from both sides of it, and so I want to catch up on much of what I've missed, because I've seen that it affects not only a relationship with a partner, but that even those with a history free of abuse still affect themselves, their partner, and even the people around them with hangover behaviors. So I'm going to try to be more consistent about keeping up to date before I dare risk registering an opinion. I've not given up, because just like those who are currently trying to incorporate these things into a solo life, I try to hope that I won't be stuck permanently in this position - or at least, will be strong enough to stick to what I know is healthier/saner for me even if it's essentially a solo existence in a long term marriage.

Comments

Submitted by Poet on Sun, 2010-02-28 07:58.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were able to sweep away the accumulated emotional baggage and start fresh with something intimate and spiritual? Wouldn't it be wonderful if two people in a relationship could be inspired at the same time? While I'm at it, wouldn't it be perfect if we could magically stop sabotaging ourselves and each other? Isn't there a temple of love somewhere where a husband and wife could go for the Cure and emerge hand in hand, soul mates for the rest of their lives?

It takes MONTHS of work. Even then, there can be slip ups and backward steps. To move ahead at all, I had to start from some basic premises:

1. We both have the best of intentions. We are both doing the best we can for the marriage within our limited perception of it.

2. I cannot change my spouse. Period.

3. If there is going to be change in my marriage, I have to do it.

The changes I want to make in myself have to be worth doing regardless of whether my spouse decides to change or not. I am doing this to be a better husband and a better person, even though my relationship may stay the same.

I feel for you Lazarus. My only advice for you is to try to get behind your wife's eyes. Try to see your relationship as she sees it. Try to understand her point of view. Is she really trying to sabotage your efforts, or does she interpret your actions differently than you?

Keep well the road and watch for the potholes.

P.

Submitted by Lazarus Arisen on Sun, 2010-02-28 11:55.

I greatly appreciate the thoughts. And in general, but appallingly specific to me, is the issue of perspective - what is heard or seen versus what is being said. It is most definitely something I have always had to work at very hard, to avoid internalizing issues that I have not caused, or brought with me, had zero, zilch, zip, nada to do with either by initial cause or exacerbation (not that I'm sure that's actually a word). Sometimes my posts seem vague, or skirting some issues, because I tend to be overly self-guarded against falling into a far older behavior - getting lost in what in my perspective ends up being oh woe is me, self absorbed whining. No matter the issues that one carries, they can never be moved past if one always finds fresh shoulders to cry them out upon. In a way, almost as if it is a situation of reliving the issues or pain endlessly, never able to move past it, because if one finds those new big shoulders - in essence, finds fresh bait, a new "victim" - to heap it upon, keeping it alive and thriving by keeping it constantly alive. A behavior I was drearily guilty of in the past. Knowing I used to do so, I tend to be gun shy about ever doing it again. So, sometimes I try to talk about a complexity in as short of terms as possible, as well as (most pertinent to this site) not repeatedly diving into details that are lurid or graphic. One thing that perhaps I internalized too well - during couples counseling during the year long separation in 2007 - which oddly enough was so NOT about the physical relationship, but about simple courtesy, respect, and consideration - I heard the words (plainly spoken, with no lines to read between or misinterpret) that my penchant for totally brutally honest communication, not being afraid to bear the soul and be vulnerable, made me emotionally unappealing - and by extension, physically unappealing. And I most definitely will not claim that I have yet to find a balance that is comfortable/works for myself or my spouse. End result - I am by benefit aware (or perhaps over aware) of perspective, and how when defenses are already up, perception is everything.

I most definitely set myself up for the fall, and found myself not walking out hand in hand with the cure, but rather found myself spitted and roasted on the altar. Every one of your points is true, and absolute, I unfortunately do not have a grasp on whether we both have the same motivations and intentions. I do not doubt her sincerity is hand in hand with mine regarding being together - we wouldn't have lasted 22 years without that. But I do find myself, perhaps selfishly, feeling that I do not yet have her hand in mine walking the physical relationship repair path, and it makes it dangerously easy to retreat to the bubble, as it feels in the absence of communication or action that the only change I will be able to effect is my own penchant for letting this part of the relationship hurt so badly - that perhaps I've been blind all along, flown in the face of every word or silence, every action or inaction, having been there slapping me in the face, that I should have maturely figured out/realized that the bubble is where I"m supposed to be, as opposed to feeling that it is a dangerous place for me to be that is self destructive and a self fulfilling prophecy - the bubble, while comparatively safer for me as an individual, is for me a place I do not wish to be or return to permanently, but again, word/silence, action/inaction, keeps pointing to the bubble being where I'm supposed to be for overall harmony. So yes, only I can effect that change, but doing so risks me as an individual, if that makes sense. If it doesn't - by all means ask me to say it in English, and I will definitely make another attempt.

My ability to see thru her eyes is varied - I can definitely understand how being the whiney needy little bitch I used to be was unappealing - but my ability to see thru her eyes is hindered by the absence of communication, an instinctive aversion to being comfortable with communicating that she brought with her into the marriage that defies my comprehension, and defies all means of understanding it by trying to get her to communicate about it. Ultimately, on this level, we are polar opposites - and ultimately we are each who we are, I simply sometimes get that bubble perspective that says "come back inside, it's safer in here, you won't be hurt/upset, and she'll have the peace that comes with me not badgering her to get her to try to talk/open up". Some days, I'm wandering around in a perplexing and confusing/contradictory void. And, the bubble works for being a better husband - or at least the one she wants/needs/prefers - but I've yet to find ground upon which I can be the better me at the same time.

Sometimes the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more; sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

Submitted by Daffy Duck on Sun, 2010-02-28 09:49.

Retreating into the "bubble", the safe bubble that seems safer than the seven week abstinence... You know... the things that you want, with the bonding, snuggling, and cuddling, your "core needs"... those are the goal. With those being met... the need for safety would be met. Did you abstain from orgasms for 7 weeks and that is what you are talking about was "safe"? Because for me and I'm wondering if it's true for you too, that if I had given into, "backslided", or "lost ground" ... by allowing myself to indulge in biologically, orgasmic sex for it's own sake, I would be saddned within myself for the lack of connection and the using of another's body for my own benefit and I might have even felt sickened by it. AND, I would have done what you did... if I thought it would help me... to give in to other instances and even instigated them if I thought I had to do that to get the bonding, snuggling. BUT, I would NOT have felt bad within myself for having to manipulate to get what I wanted. NOPE. I would, though, have been sad, and disappointed and hurt if I had to do that, and made a decision as to what to do or not do again in light of how I felt. There's no need for safety if there's no perceived threat, right? So, what's the threat? Being used? Being manipulated? Please, Lazarus, do not be unnecessarily hard on yourself for wanting what you wanted. To me, it's the most honorable thing we can do is acknowledge what we would/are willing to do in this lifetime for the sake of being able to find genuineness, authenticity, and truly self-less relating. No shame or blame needed.

One more thing about being in the bubble protecting yourself from associating sex with your wife and feeling safe or even safer doing that than even seven weeks of abstinence. The only thing that would make it safer to be in the bubble is this aspect of the grasping/selfish sex or using one another, or being used with no real relating, right? Once it is owned that that is what happened then the only reason to not feel safe is if you are planning on not owning how it made you feel and validating that and also if you felt that you couldn't say how you felt or get what you were wanting/needing if you had expressed it. Right? And THAT lack of safety comes from the introduction to and indulgence in biologically driven sex for it's own sake. There's no need to hide or go into a shell unlesss it is beneficial to decide that it does feel safe, make your observations and continue to be strong about what you desire and what it is you want and to say it. I know full well about how disappointed I feel in relationships with ALL human beings and I'm not exaggerating when I say that. I used masturbation to mask hurt feelings and deeply sad feelings... and to feel good in an unsafe world. But, it was when I found a man who I KNOW loves to be with me, spend time with me, and talk to me, and touch me, and ... ... I wouldn't have it any other way... I've spent a lifetime in NON RELATING and still do, except I was blessed to have my core needs met with this new relationship. Because of physical issues, sex is not always possible most of the time for me and so this is why, over time, I've learned through this man's words, and actions that I am loved for me, but sex was out of the equation which allowed trust to develop. (Very beautiful) Acknowledge how it feels safe or safer to be in the bubble and then allow yourself to feel the disappointment. (it is normal, natural and necessary to feel disappointed when our needs havent' been met. ) But all is not lost.

By the way you are NOT DUMB. NOPE! Not dumb for however you handled the experience. I'm sorry that you didn't get what you wanted as far as bonding behaviors. Do not apologize for your "core needs". Too many people are not even sure what theirs are and the world needs more of us to be in contact with what those are and to uphold that. "Bravo!", friend, for writing on here. But you are not dumb. It's ok to want what you want.

Yes, it's ok to want what we want. But if we've never been told that or allowed to have that without abandonment or being over-indulged, then how would we know?

Being able to own what we really want deep inside is hard if we've had abuse and boundary violations early in our lives, but if we do, those who can acknowlege it can become as fulfilled as they were "empty". It took an "other" to relate to me for who I am to see that being open can be the most scariest but the most blessed experience...and 1) I've not even experienced it fully yet, 2) I've been closed all my life. The good thing about having all of the "stubborn" stipulations about relationships I've had and my ability to tell everyone what they are doing wrong didn't make for very close relationships for me, in fact, it made them miserable and I had no friends. But to the extent I know what makes me miserable is the extent that I can experience happiness if not for knowing exactly what I want. For me, I just never knew it was possible... but now I do. (Thanks Marnia and friends).

Please, I find that your insights and contributions would be very valuable so please say them when you can, if you see fit. Talking from the perspective of a single person only means to me that it's just you're having trouble connecting or being open. (You say that things you may say might be "cold/clinical, even though factual." I assure you, whether it is a cold/factual account or a more warm/feeling oriented response, all insights would be welcome as they are because they are what you are experiencing and ....I have a strong sneaking suspicion that either perspective would be valuable and beneficial for others to hear.

Abusive mothers, pleasuring yourself, and selfish partners... These are all things that if we observe them closely can either drive us further into ourselves (which is not a bad thing because the misery can force us into change in a direction NOT conducive to pain/isolation) or like I said... they can help us to find out more about relationships, life, and relating, and vulnerability, and true strength, and character, and true joy. So, all is just the nature or characteristic of experience. I talk as a friend here because my misery almost had me take my life to escape it, and ...I can honestly say, I like the refined characteristics I'm seeing as a result of the intense "fire".

Please say what you need to say and trust yourself more. No matter what flavor you bring with it.

I personally am interested in your observations about the "both sides" of the issue. It seems to me that you are in a position to learn about and report much about the in's and out's of relationships... but your strong suit is that you know how you feel and you talk about it.

I know this is rambling on and on but your post made me want to respond. I hope it's coherent!

Submitted by Lazarus Arisen on Sun, 2010-02-28 12:28.

some time - and I am doing so as we speak - to process all that. I am very grateful gave me the time it took to write that - as I process, I'm liable to find more to say. Some of my previous response to Poet felt like it was responding to you as well as the same time, or at least give the background for some of what I want to say in response to you, Daffy. But, some of it takes additional background or explanation that this original post didn't necessarily provide.

Relatively safety, bubble versus acknowledged celibacy. I don't know the general, or your specific, use of the term - it is one I picked up during the period of time that I realized that my solo pleasure addiction was not the more common variety of sex addiction bubble. Some common subsets, most definitely. An abused history that tried to teach me that I was undeserving/unworthy of having a functional relationship with someone, emotional or physical. The bubble that I speak of is in part founded on that concept from conventional 12 step sexual addiction counseling. But one very core part of my bubble, was that if I was addicted, it was to sex with my spouse, because I found nothing more arousing, appealing, or beautiful that her sexual arousal, response, and orgasm. In that bubble, we could have sex when whenever I wanted, I was not dirty or perverted (thanks mom), and her normal way of closing off/withdrawing during sex, and never communicating with me in ANY form, did not exist. That's the conventional bubble world. In my case, it got aborted into a place where I went to yes, alleviate the physical and emotional frustration, but also became something that I could use to avoid wanting her, minimize the likelihood of responding to her rare interest/advances - it was no longer a sexual addiction bubble - it was a sexual anorexia bubble, in which I sought the release I needed without having to be vulnerable to a three dimensional and very frustrating "real" physical relationship. In the bubble, she was with me, not retreating, not closing her eyes, going silent, and making me as a person feel that I was only the necessary life support system for the occasionally required erection. The bubble was not idealized fantasy sex - it was an aversion/avoidance mechanism. A place that the last few weeks' worth of events made me dive back into.

The seven weeks of celibacy, discussed and agreed upon, was comfortable, safe, and working well. And brought to a crashing halt by gentle touching and kissing that got overheated, and I was manipulated into non-intercourse sex/orgasm. Repeatedly. When I beat myself up on this issue, it was with the knowledge that she knows my triggers well, employed what is probably the second strongest, and while the button was deliberately pushed, I was only briefly silently angry at her for it. The anger was far stronger towards myself, for falling prey to past easy manipulation responses.

On manipulation - thanks to an incident many years ago, I am hyper sensitive to, an incident that in brief, illustrated to me how easily manipulated I was, by compassion even more so that sex. But in one day, a friend pushed my buttons emotionally/compassionately, and then my buttons got pushed emotionally and sexually. And so, as is characteristic of me with the passing years, I am incredibly gun shy about my emotions or my libido being manipulated. And the subsequent hangover behaviors I'm seeing clearly because the orgasm events came after heads were cleared by celibacy, had a definite monitorable clock to watch, are upsetting. Whether it's called safer or more comfortable or more harmonious, I had someone meeting me in interest for non-sexual bonding behaviors, and they were given and taken with sincerity, as near as I can tell. But the moment she got her orgasms, it was back to business as usual - no simple contact, the bonding behaviors came to a screeching halt, and I felt once again that I'd been used sexually for the get off, and that I was now being put back on the shelf until the next one was required.

Once I got my head back on straight, I actually made a couple of sexual advances - and they were received for the orgasm's sake, and were minimally returned in a way that made me feel it was a chore or duty, not done out of desire to give pleasure. So I slipped right back inside the bubble, am dealing with what on my scale of past behaviors is a mid level or moderate solo binge period, but not for the orgasm/chemical rush - I already knew even as I jumped back inside the bubble that I was doing it for avoidance/out of aversion to sex.

I never feel dumb or wrong or guilty for having emotional or physical needs any more, most of my retreat has been the avoid it motivation. That ugly place where I know full well that I'm doing it because it feels like I'm the only one I can rely on, and that aside from the much lesser (for me) appetite for orgasm, lets me retreat into that emotional fantasy world where she will touch or cuddle or bond with me after sex of any form.

So, for me - it is the feeling of being used for another's orgasm-based appetite - I can't honestly (or at least accurately) feel that I have ever used someone else's body for orgasm-based sex , aside from the whopping one time I did so and found myself feeling miserable after it. I am not guilty of having wanted/initiated something that was orgasm-based. I find it far more fulfilling to ride what (prior to knowing about Marnia's work) I used to refer to as riding the razor's edge - physical contact that yes, sometimes gets insanely frustrating, but overall, feels richer, clears my head, gives me the focus, clarity, and "Zen" of not having fallen over the edge of the abyss.

Ok - enough of the self-defense, justification, and clarification. I actually (and this is REALLY rare for me) do not feel guilty for what I want/wanted - I wanted the celibacy to last indefinitely, because we were genuinely a couple then - not two highly compatible individuals. I'm not an idiot, I can't get it back - I do know that daily check ins here helped, and kept me strong/kept my resolve. But I'd rather be totally orgasm-free than be back in this stagnant puddle. But I can't begin my day by day feelings of strength and pride in myself as an individual, and how much better/more closely we functioned, until I work myself back out of the bubble - and right now, I unfortunately have an underlying "justification" to stay in it rather than poke my head back out and make it more than a day or two. I have to get re-acquainted with what I was, and what I had, but the current form of binge feels much too justifiable and a valid place to be. Yes, it is a mere fraction of what past solo binges were when I was doing it for aversion/appetite control - but it's not really that much prettier. I've got to find my needle to pop the bubble, so that I can reset the clock that I need as an individual, because right now the "ghosts" of the past that say "see, karma, you're meant to be either in the bubble or totally asexual" aren't whispering - they have bullhorns.

Sometimes the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more; sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

Submitted by Cole on Sun, 2010-02-28 13:25.

I can see areas where we've experienced some of the same things, and others that we haven't. Naturally our experiences aren't going to be the same, but there are similarities. I was molested at age 11, and that was my introduction to sex. And by another male, a family friend who worked at the theater my dad managed.

I actually felt I experienced very little negatives from it, though, at least that I can identify. Hard to say what life would have been like had that not happened...how much things would be better or not. But second guessing doesn't help. What is, is. Yet I saw it affect my brothers more than me (I was the oldest and unknown to me at the time, he was molesting all of us, my youngest brother as well who was around 6).

And if you read some of my other posts, you'll run across a period in our marriage where there was a lot of difficulties sexually in our relationship. A little different as to the why and the reaction, but difficult at the time, and I had decided it would never change (luckily, it did eventually).

At any rate, it can help to talk about it, let's your mind think on it, come up with possible plans of action. At a minimum, you'll have some support to see you through this issue.

Submitted by Lazarus Arisen on Sun, 2010-02-28 13:48.

Share some similarities, and some differences - thank you for posting, and hopefully we each get something we didn't before out of the exchange.

Sometimes the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more; sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.

Marnia's picture

Submitted by Marnia on Sun, 2010-02-28 14:35.

are working through some heavy stuff, which I respect...but have little light to shed on.

However, on another topic, I would like to say that it might help to thank your wife with genuine enthusiasm for the time and effort she put into The Experiment, and simply ask her if she'd be willing to try another extended period of bonding behaviors at some point of her choosing. It took me many tries to see the differences in perspective clearly enough to motivate me to stick with the karezza approach. She may be the same.

Submitted by Poet on Mon, 2010-03-01 03:57.

Thanking is something you can't do too much of. Flowers and dinner out help too. smiley

In my case, re-connecting with my children was a part of it too.

P.

Submitted by Cole on Sun, 2010-02-28 22:23.

Having been through some of that and come out better (but still areas to grow), here's what I think helped.

I became contented within myself. I couldn't change her, but I could change me. It wasn't where I *wanted* to go, but I realized for my own well being, I needed to simply accept her where she was at, and give her space to work through things herself. And know that she might never "change" like I would want. And part of marriage is to give yourself to another, completely. No two people are going to be "perfect" and compatible in all areas, and to have a lasting and fruitful marriage requires accepting the other person as they are and loving them despite their faults and shortcomings from either side's point of view.

Like anyone else, there were things I really loved about her. She's fun to be with, generally playful. It was one of the things that initially attracted her to me when we met. She works hard for the family, and for me. I know she loves me and wants our relationship to last. She may not want to do sex as often as I've had in the past, but now it looks like that may be actually a good thing based on the info at this site. And while we both want orgasm when we have sex, I don't get the sense that she feels I'm using her to get off, nor do I feel that way about her. Rather, to me we are just enjoying a time of bonding, sharing a pleasure together that only we have shared with ourselves. No one else has ever shared that with me other than her, and that makes it super intimate and special. And maybe that's why neither of us feels we are using each other, because neither of us have ever had sex with anyone else.

But I think when I stopped being so needy, when it sunk in that if she decided she didn't want to have sex for several months, that I would be okay with that, then it took the pressure off of her, and she became less defensive about it, which allowed her an opportunity to reach the point where she reevaluated her feelings and beliefs about sex when the opportunity arose to do that.

And then the other thing, which I don't think I had a lot of control over (it happens if and when it happens), at one point she had a paradigm shift in how she thought about sex. It moved from something dirty and nasty to something beautiful and bonding. And oddly enough, as I think I've mentioned in another post, it was a particular Christian group's views on it that changed her. But I think if I was still pawing at her to have sex, when that came along, she may have missed it because she was in a defensive posture.

What messes up people more than anything coming into and lasting in a marriage is expectations. As I've described, I had mine and they were totally smashed to pieces. If we love one another, that means accepting the other as they are, and not marrying them with the intent to change them. If done right, each other will have a profound effect on the other over time, but not because it is being forced, but an organic integration of values and hearts. And integration of lives.

The bottom line, the most freeing thing for any of us is acceptance by another. That is what love should communicate. When it communicates "why can't you be more like this," then it shuts down growth and bonding. Allow her to be, accept her for that, and work to become content with where you are. Only then can it really move forward to where you'd like to be, in its own time.

Maybe that's a little more light on the subject. But I'm also continuing to work. I just gave her the birthday presents today (celebrating her birthday one day early, though we plan to go out to eat tomorrow evening). One of those was Marnia's book. I'm hoping she'll read it and see what she thinks of the whole thing, then we'll decide what to try with it later. And I told her tonight of my intention to go at least three weeks without orgasm to test out what I might experience. She seemed interested, even though like me, she doesn't experience much sense that she loses energy after an orgasm, especially for three weeks. She told me she has an orgasm probably around twice a week. So a lot less than me but more than I thought she did.

Anyway, it should be interesting what all happens here. For all I know, this could be another paradigm shift for her. Heck, for me as well.

Marnia's picture

Submitted by Marnia on Mon, 2010-03-01 09:59.

such a beautiful post, Cole. Sounds to me like you two should be writing the book on lasting harmony between couples. smiley It will be interesting to see how my piece fits in to the picture...or not. As you'll soon see...I took a far more winding road to get there. *chuckle*

Submitted by CuriousFellow on Mon, 2010-03-01 20:02.

Lazarus, you said that your separation "oddly enough was so NOT about the physical relationship, but about simple courtesy, respect, and consideration." Do you have some more thoughts about that you'd like to share?

I ask because "please" and "thank you" seem to not be part of my wife's vocabulary. And when she is displeased with me, she calls me "jerk" and other less flattering terms.

In our marriage, I'm the less talkative one, and she tends to be "brutally honest" - about me. I'm naturally rather quiet, but I tend to be even quieter around her than around other people, I think in part because things I say tend to get used against me, so it's not safe to talk and simply say what's on my mind.

Submitted by Lazarus Arisen on Tue, 2010-03-02 08:00.

I can, and have no problem with it, am simply pushed a bit for time at present. In the interim - sounds like you have faced a little rougher water than I have, I have been in some of your shoes at least, altho in other ways you and I may live in polar opposite conditions. Most days mine are most easily described as calm passive indifference.

Sometimes the truth isn't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more; sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.