Does Nature promote cuckoldry?

I have had this argument with a friend. Humans have taken themselves outside of nature. Not to say humans are not controlled by it.Look at people addicted to food they are doing what nature intended. Nature just had no idea how much sugary fatty food would be available. So what if you have it backwards and the alphas are caught by nture inside a porn addiction that leads to too much masturbation. we have no real way to figure this out with all the super stimuli out there that goes byound what nature intended or expected

My sense is that it's definitely the case that today's sexual stimuli will shape the gene pool if it continues. It's like nothing our ancestors ever dealt with on such a large scale.

But I don't think the world divides neatly into "sheep" and "goats" around masturbation. In any case, the same partners who fall in love with abandon and want to be together forever are often the *same* ones who mysteriously fall out of love when sexual satiety due to too much of a good thing subtly changes their feelings.

Like James, I don't think it's clear that nature + synthetic stimulation is following your proposed script. I suspect there are a lot of men using porn today who were not necessarily heavy masturbators...and simply view porn as a way to "get their needs met" without disrupting their marriages. This is logical, but the potential for escalation being what it is, they may well feel more dissatisfied than satisfied at the end of the day.

finally, I see where you're going with this. I sincerely hope cuckolding will not become a factor.

However, I do agree that there's the potential to go "out of sync" if both partners don't share the same goal.

As you know, I now feel strongly that "what's sauce for the gander should also be sauce for the goose." but I was not the fastest learner in this respect.

I hope you're able to persuade her to try a new approach...at least for a few weeks. It'll probably take more than one experiment, too. Somehow I sense that you're up to the job...or will be soon, with your equilibrium building.

But I did read an article today about increasing bi-sexuality in young women and the male author kinda said frequent porn use by young men could be a contributing factor.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sax-sex/201004/why-are-so-many-girls...

There's a lot at stake when *either* sex ignores the importance of bonding behaviors in favor of superficial stimulation. As I often say here, "we're tribal, pair-bonding primates, and our nervous systems and path to well-being have evolved accordingly."

But it doesn't all come down to excessive masturbation. There's also the importance of women bonding well with their kids. If a man hasn't received healthy nurturing as a boy, then it will be very challenging for him not to fall into synthetic sources of "feeling good." (True for women too, of course.)

So there's sort of a chicken and egg problem. It's neither sex's "fault." But we are looking at a deteriorating mess across our civilization, as we lose our tribes and weaken our pair bonds and families. That said, I think learning to use intimate relationships to create a fundamental sense of subconscious wholeness (avoiding satiety as much as possible and engaging in daily bonding behaviors) is one of the best places we adults can start to repair the damage.

I guess I prefer to see the glass as half full, rather than worry about the mistakes we've all made. As long as they can be repaired, we're golden.

Dave,

Thanks for all the interesting comments regarding masturbation. Like yourself, I am a married man who engages in the practice. I find masturbation helpful sometimes as it serves to lower my aggression and other "testosterone driven behavior." It tends to be only a quick fix.

With masturbation: I try not to keep it secret from my spouse. I find that she normally would rather have my semen for herself. Your case is a little different in that your spouse might rather have you retain it. I am unsure what motivates my spouse to rather have my semen but it may be that she feels more secure in our relationship if she gets it. Your wife tends not to have security issues. It may simply be her defense mechanism, her way to test herself so that she doesn't completely give in to your love of her. Also, maybe she masturbates to ease this tension?

In any event, moderation in ejaculation is a good thing. I surely encourage moderate ejaculatory retention.

Your post made me think about the differences between Alpha males and beta males, those males who tend to be driven by testosterone and those who tend to be less competitive and more sensitive. I tend to think high sex drives (or man who have not learned successfully to sublimate their sexual desires into over fields) to be associated with alpha male behavior. Masturbation I think is a sympton of the alpha male, even those the behavior is non-procreative. I might be wrong about this but I find masturbation ultimately leads to more and more sexualized behaviors though in the short term it may satisfy.

How do alpha males remain in committed monogamous relationships? That is the issue. Masturbation may be a way. Surely, bonding behaviors help as well. I find that fasting (moderate decrease in calories and desserts)helps too. Children help too in that they provide the couple with other responsibilities and also provide the couple with less time to focus on each other. I would think romantic relationships without children are much more difficult than romantic relationships with children. You have more bonding opportunities when there is more people to bond with.

Romantic relationships are tricky. They are supposed to be passionate but the passion can lead to unwanted consequences. It is amazing to me that anyone every stays married.

Ultimately, whether a couple practices karazza or comes all the time, the important thing is that couples never stop screwing around with each other. Whether people are completely fulfilled emotionally or balanced or happy, as long as we don't stop trying to screw each other, I think the relationships survive. Karazza helps but I think sometimes a man needs to let one rip in or on one's spouse. And, it needs to be consciously chosen and celebrated.

Thanks David for the inspiration. I have often thought about the cuckoldry thing too. Why?

For me, it is the ultimate sign of freedom and independence. To watch one's spouse with another, and to allow it to happen: better yet, to accept it with understanding and compassion would be nothing less than the conquering of one's greatest fear. Its an "ego" death.

However, most relationships probably cannot survive too much of this behavior due to the effect it may have on one's level of commitment to the marriage and the effect it may have on one's interest in continuing to promote those bonding behaviors that make it easier for people to stay together.

Then again, why engage in the behavior in the first place?

I tend to think that there should be a healthy balance between "the breeding stud and the stay at home loving husband," and that the "breeding stud" role should not be relegating to another person. It is a difficult balance to strike as the "breeding stud" can get out of control. However, "the stay at home loving husband" might not be able to provide the transcendence and consciousness that a woman desires.

However, I don't believe that having one's spouse being intimate with another should be the end to a relationship, especially given all the science around the sex drive and hormones. Not to mention the science that seems to encourage this behavior.

Cuckoldry is an interesting topic, and perhaps there could be some couples who could properly indulge in the activity without any negative effects. It really comes down to the "bonding behaviors" and the "commitment factor." These need to be present and moderation needs to be used.

Orgasm and ejaculation are important. I think the issue is that orgasms and male ejaculation must not become the sole bonding behavior for a couple.

As I have written in another post:
"With regards to the male orgasm, I like the thinking of David Ramsdale. David Ramsdale states, "[w]hile there is nothing wrong with achieving the woman's orgasm in a man's body, it misses the mark. There is a natural male orgasm that is the polar opposite of and energetic complement to the female orgasm. As a man achieves greater depths of physical, emotional and mental surrender during ejaculation orgasm, he arrives at what I call 'the male transcendental orgasm' or 'MTO.' The volcanic explosion is the man's natural, spiritual, sexual moment of enlightenment." There are surely numerous other ways to experience the divine or enlightenment. Orgasm is an easy and natural way to do it. Meditation, religious ritual, service, prayer, yoga, exercise (runner's high, for instance), etc. Different ways of experiencing oneness and wholeness with Ultimate Being."

I think cuckoldry might serve some purpose for the female and provide some spiritual insights for the man but these purposes and benefits can surely be achieved in other ways. As Thomas More writes in his book on the erotic life, urges to act in certain ways can be de-literalized in order to achieve the same result by using different acts.

example of all this. I mean, I guess as far as definitions go, I'm a beta male. In that I'm not aggressive, usually, I cry easily (its why I don't watch shows like Extreme Home Makeover because it always makes me cry and I don't really like to sit there wiping my eyes, I even cry at some American Idol performances). Yet, I don't feel like a doormat. I know who I am and am fine with that. And I can be strong when I have to be, it's just not my normal state of being.

And yet I've masturbated on average daily since age 11. I personally don't feel I'm trying to medicate myself with it or do it from stress or trying to prove anything to my wife or anyone else, or anything other than I simply enjoy the feelings and want them, pure and simple. I don't care whether it is from masturbation or sex. I do like sex better because it involves another person and that simply feels fuller to me (and the science here would agree, adding in the oxytocin to the mix more).

And though I know this is just my perspective, I wouldn't care to see my wife with another man. Our whole relationship is built on mutual trust and intimacy. Neither of us have ever has sex with anyone else than each other, and that makes what we have something special. It means I'm the only one she's ever bonded with, and she's the only one I've ever bonded with. So that is something we share with each other that no one else has shared in on the face of this entire world.

I don't say that to lessen multiple partners as being "evil" in a black and white way. But what we have is the most intimate type relationship two people can share. The more you share that with other people, the less intimate that becomes. And she feels the same way. So I guess I fall into the camp of not wanting another man's seed in my wife. Not because I'm not strong enough to do that (it would be in some small way enticing to my dopamine addicted brain) but because I value what we have so highly I would hate to see that destroyed, and I can't for the life of me see any real benefits from it other than a dopamine high from watching "porn" live in front of me staring my wife. Guess I don't get it. So little gain for so much loss.

Anyway, I'm an exception to those two items you're talking about, if you're wanting to gather data points to prove or disprove the concepts/theories. Our biological self may want that kind of thing, but it isn't something my rational self sees is of value, and sees as even destructive in my case at least.

Thank you for you thread as It is helpful to my own issues.
To me it seems your using this "fantasy" of your wife with a stud as a way of getting your dopamine levels up. the more you fantasize the more you need to up the stakes to reach the high until you make the fantasy a reality. then when that is not enough what next. Watching your wife with multiple partners, gang-bangs ect. and all out your love for her and your desire to see her satisfied. This is where the problem may come in.... She will need more and more to be satisfied.
maybe your fantasy is fueling your need to masturbate and your fantasizing when your with your wife is making it too hard to last very long.

You also have talked about the state of nature in which I found what you said here interesting '
'I have spoken to many cuckolds, and it is amazing how they all seem to have the same story to tell: fall in love, had great sex, got tired of it, became masturbators, left their wives wanting, then became cuckolds''.
I believe the nature of things got put out of balance at the point ''you got tired of it'' from there your behavior is trying to work within the social construct of marriage etc. this is by masturbating rather that leaving your wife. can you take yourself back to this point before you got tired of it. can karezza help you from "getting tired of it". can it beat nature.

I have some of these thoughts and love fantasizing about my wife being with others in a loving way. I love talking about it with her during intercourse or more so her talking to me about it. It puts me right up there on the edge of bliss on like a wave of ecstasy for what seems like a eternity. It is as close to heaven I could imagine.
The fantasies started out very soft years ago yet have escalated to the point of considering taking a step into reality.
I also fell into a habit of masturbating a lot which also fueled these fantasies. I was working very hard doing something I dont like then coming home to need that high to make life feel worthwhile.
I then decided to stop cumming as I was very grumpy/moody all the time.
This was the first most powerful step as It fueled my love for my wife and i found I had more energy to express it. but it also made my fantasies worse as my need for that high was calling me all the time. not the need to orgasm but the need to ride the edge before slowing letting myself down).
My problem is that I have the high drive not her so not cumming for me makes things worst in my neediness of her.

I am in the process of deciding if I should surrender to my fantasies and sexuality and enjoy the bliss i believe it could bring (which I dont think my wife is up for this) or I look to discipline myself from my fantasies not masturbating and look to lie and relax with my wife and see if can reach that bliss without the fantasy just by feeling the bonding love.
What make the second hard to decide is when i feel low in energy like after work. I really want that high but dont have the energy to get there with the karezza and can find it frustrating when I am lacking energy so feel tempted into internet porn, fantasy, masturbating etc.

thank you for letting me share

the husband of marylou

What I think is that this phenomenon, in the end, is just another kinky fantasy to use for a dopamine hit. The basic recipe for any fantasy goes like this:

1. Take some sexual imagery
2. Add in something to make it more exciting or compelling, such as: pain/violence, "forbidden-ness," the unknown/other, danger, dominance/submission, etc.

In the case of allowing one's wife to cheat with some studly-type male, you've got some forbidden stuff going on, as well as dominance/submission (with you being submissive, other guy being dominant.)

Just my 10 cents.

it s not nature's wish to make anyone unhappy, if you see nature as the big planetary consciousness that meteorologists call Gaia. We are part of this big organism, we are like some sort of cells in her. Gaia would like to have her cells be healthy and happy. ALL of her cells, so she is like a giant computer that calculates the best for everybody (every cell) to have the best outcome.

All cells interact. If a cell is not working properly (which means healthy and happy) it has effects on other cells.

Knowing about Gaia makes me feel that a lot of business of our lives of misery is not "Nature" that drives us, but the Flyer. Which the Toltec shamans found to occupy our consciousness to make us produce energy for the Flyer to eat up.

So the question is: do you want to be Flyer-driven or Gaia-"driven"? The Flyer will drive you around to search for all this dopamin-kicks to be able to feed on the energy you dispense - NO MATTER WHAT THE COST, death destruction misery pain fear torture , whatever it takes. You are fighting your coordination with the Flyer not with "nature".

I was with a man who was in the cuckoldry business. He did not want it for me, even if he would vow that "my" "pleasure" would be the reason. It was not out of love, but out of selfishness and darkness. How do I know? He did not try to much to pamper me in any other ways, there were not a lot of signs of his love besides searching the internet for studs and occasions. Kindly stroking my face? nope. Hugging me dearly? nope. Rubbing my back? nope. Gently looking into my eyes? nope. Only the unspoken promise he would do all that if I would fulfill his fantasies. This is the promise that all of these women get, which is designed to push them into doing what a man like this wants. The greed was always there. His darkness nearly killed me.

If you wanna leave your own darkness, leave your fantasy-watching and your porn-watching before it drives you even more crazy than you seem to me already. Without endlessly chasing your fantasies you might discover a whole new world of real bliss and wellbeing.

A whole new world of color.

Ditto to what Amari said. Does someone addicted to anything, say a heroine addict, have a real sense of what "nature" thinks is best for them? No. Logically, they should know taking that stuff will destroy them and any relationship they have as it gobbles them up and spits them out. But they feel nature's calling to take that next shot. Everything in them cries out for more and more.

Those of us who are addicted to this sexual dopamine high will feel nature calling out for us to have more and more. It will take different forms, whether it be some fetish or in this case, participating in cuckoldry (the definition I pulled up simply said a man whose wife commits adultery, didn't say anything about watching or approving). Once that new "exciting" experience wears out its welcome and the dopamine levels out from watching it and it no longer has the pull, is that not the same thing as being addicted to porn in general? And if so, then what's the point? It will die off, and you'll still be left wanting more.

And the other issue maybe not addressed here is how your wife will really feel about it. Amari touched on it. But I'm thinking while her craving for orgasms might be satisfied, once it's over, how will she feel about her relationship to you if it doesn't bother you that she just bonded intimately with another man. She might feel like maybe you really don't want her anymore, then why stay together at all?

I think the same thing applies to the women here as it does to us men. Frequent orgasms will only leave one wanting more, tend to send one into depression, lethargicness, and cause other negative side effects which can potentially destroy the relationship. Like I'm learning that I really should pull way back on how often I have an orgasm, the same applies for her whether she ever sees that or not.

I understand the difficultly your under, and seeking answers, and I really pray it will work out the best for both of you. But I can't say what you feel Nature is calling for you to do will be healthy for your relationship, anymore than nature calling me to eat ice cream till I can't eat anymore is healthy for my body. Not all "natural" impulses are for our benefit, left unchecked. The continual calling for a sexual high, however we seek that, is one of those things that needs to be controlled to be beneficial.

you've received some good feedback here, but I'll just add that if you want to read a funny, informative book on why we have these impulses and how they serve our genes...but not necessarily our well-being...read "Mean Genes: From Sex to Money to Food, Taming our Primal Instincts" by professors Burnham and Phelan. It's roll-on-the-floor funny. See excerpt here: http://www.reuniting.info/science/genetic_lag_burnham_phelan_richard_daw...

There's a surprising number of significant mismatches between our evolved desires, which worked well enough in the depths of time, and today's circumstances. The result is that we often end up in some real messes. Buying on credit, playing the lottery, reckless trading in the stock market, gorging on high-fat foods, gorging on sexual thrills, and more, are all results of our "natural" impulses. Even for our ancestors these impulses served genes before individuals, but with today's radically changed conditions, such impulses aren't necessarily serving anyone...except those who exploit them such as advertisers, brokers, banks, and so forth.

I shared bits of this thread with Gary...who's too busy to write. As a recovered addict he just said. "Yep. That's addict-brain." Then he went into a "trance voice" and said, "Nature wants me to suck on toes. Nature wants me to dress up like a woman. I can hear Her speaking...'There's the dress in the closet; put it on....'"

The job of the limbic brain is to hijack the rational brain when it perceives a need. But when it's out of balance, it perceives needs where they aren't - and it's really LOUD. Sad, but true.

That said, I learned most lessons in life by listening to my limbic brain and making messes.

You do not "need" to follow that programming to be happy.

Same goes for your wife. Thrilling as such an adventure will be in the short-term (thanks to the altered state high dopamine creates), it will pale for her, too.