Guilt and Shame

Interesting. Although it feels like I share the same feelings you do about orgasm in that (at least consciously) I do not have feelings of remorse or guilt concerning them. But there is an enormous amount of shame involved somehow. I think the "warring" that has gone on in my head is what has caused me harm in the past. I used to "war" when I was conscious that I had an addiction to marijuana when I was 18. Even though I did not feel guilty for doing the act, there was a feeling of a lack of control that I couldnt put my finger on. I would get high, feel bad about myself and start reading the bible. I felt schizophrenic, but I didnt know what else to do. In fact, just before I started doing this, I was a very atheist and rebellious kid that had grown up around all the southern baptist stuff. One night while I was high, I started having a powerful experience and felt a presence in my room. I hadnt even thought about religion, but that night I went and picked up the bible and started reading it, from that point on, I would feel guilty every time I would get high and I would spend the hours in that state thinking about how bad and sinful I was. I had a bunch of dark thoughts like god was going to kill me in an earthquake for having sinful thoughts and that the world was going to end. My mind was fragile at the time and I was just throwing nuclear bombs in my mind nightly. This warring did not stop. I continued to do this and I thought my problem would need to be solved with more religion, since it seemed like a problem of a religious nature at the time. I went further into christianity at the time and I would go to church talking about all kinds of crazy non-sense, I was a crazy person! I would feel really guilty about having my thoughts still whether they were urges for sex or whatever and I would binge on "sinful" activities. My cognitive dissonance was on full. I was completely split and guilt-ridden. This war was intense in my mind. I eventually went fully over to religion and started taking it as was prescribed and I calmed down and a lot of the purely crazy stuff subsided. But the war had never ended, it had just picked up different themes. 8 years of sweeping these feelings under the rug later I pick up the addiction where the war was not so hidden, but an everyday tangible reality. The last couple of years and the eventual uncovering of shame has just been the breaking down of some old and bad habits and tricks of my mind.

It felt like the shame remained and this is just starting to surface now because this addiction did not allow anymore sweeping under the rug.

I seems like a lot of my physical stuff comes from this shame/depression. Since this has been such a deep chasm for so long in my mind, it seems like the shame is great. If youve lived your life in relative peace, somewhat content with your deep beliefs and yourself, your sense of shame would not be so deep, and your depression wouldnt be as severe. It seems like a lot of us experiencing the physical pains do have a lot of shame and depression oozing up. I am having headaches tonight and it seems like they are because of my depression.

Courage is knowing what not to fear.
-Plato

We often talk about how shame can make acting out more thrilling and addictive (as a neurochemical matter). As best I can tell psychologists are universally trained to tell people exactly what you're saying here. I'm sure there's some validity to it.

However, I think it is a mistake to generalize about "shame" being the problem, or "lack of shame" being the cure. I think your close connection with your wife, family and Creator have a lot more to do with your relative balance while addicted - again due to the beneficial, soothing effects of bonding behaviors. (Oxytocin, for example, has been shown to ease addictions and withdrawal symptoms in addicted rats.)

Also, you have not been using some of the more extreme (over-stimulating) material available on the Web. Given today's extreme, ever-available porn, I think it's a mistake to tell users they'll be fine if they have no shame. This is the official line. Yet though it's widely publicized, more and more men, even those with no "shame" in their backgrounds, are suffering a lot as they desensitize their brains.

It may be that having a loving mate is more protective than understanding the effects of shame. Shame is certainly something to heal, but it seems to arise from doubting one's value as a person. Having a loving mate (and caring friends and relatives) seems to counter the underlying perception of oneself as flawed better than theoretical thoughts about avoiding shame.

. . . with a loving mate who believes in you, even Brussels sprouts.

P.

Another thing I was thinking is that maybe you're so used to it that you fail to notice most of the negative effects because they're always there or you've give in so fully to your addiction that it's like "I'm never going to beat this thing, I'm a slave to it and will be for the rest of my life, I can never beat this thing, so why bother feeling negative about it." In any case I think it's good that you don't feel these feelings, they really don't help. I think a period of grief is needed though after relapsing, and I can't help feeling it myself. Maybe because it helps to start connecting the addiction with that feeling of grief instead of the temporary rush we get.

Great question Cole. I really like how you seek to find some truths to very fundamental concepts that tend to be accepted as facts and never challenged. The truest form of understanding comes from this fundamental challenge. I enjoy reading your stuff. I can only imagine it applied to things like politics and pop science.

Back to your question: I think the shame and embarrassment are simply a component of the overall addictive cycle. Some brains add it to the mix, some don't. My guess is the brain knows little of the difference between a bunch of giggling girls seeing you naked and someone trying to mug you at the ATM. I am guessing that the shame aspect is yet another clever adaptation by the brain to keep us masturbating.

But, gosh, you have me thinking about this in a whole new way......I hate it/love it when you do that. Maybe we can all buck-up and schedule a symposium hosted by Gary and Marnia in some central location......THAT I'd pay good money for.

David

There most likely is a connection between shame, guilt and masturbation, that is that feeling these emotions while reaching orgasm probably give you a different high or feeling, resulting from the chemical cocktail created by mixing emotions with orgasm. That would explain all the forbidden porn out there, nuns, adultery, spanking, students with teachers, bondage etc. and why we go to such extremes to spice up our orgasms when they start to become dull. Maybe we subconsciously seek these feelings of guilt and shame to spice up our orgasms, maybe they're there for that purpose and make withdrawal more intense. So you're probably right that the intensity of withdrawal probably depends on the feelings we associate with orgasm.

Is this how it works Marnia?

...there's more to be learned, but clearly, for some folks "forbidden = delicious buzz." Did you ever read this piece by a gay guy who longs for the closet because the pleasure was more mind-altering?
http://www.reuniting.info/bathroom_sex_brainchemistry

I also think of John Humphrey Noyes, a theology grad, who made this observation a century and a half ago:

The exhaustion which follows [climax] naturally breeds self-reproach and shame, and this leads to dislike and concealment of the sexual organs, which contract disagreeable associations from the fact that they are the instruments of pernicious excess. This undoubtedly is the philosophy of the origin of shame after the fall. Adam and Eve first sunk the spiritual in the sensual….by pushing prematurely beyond the amative to the propagative, and so became ashamed, and began to look with an evil eye on the instruments of their folly.

On the same principle we may account for the process of "ing off" which takes place between lovers after marriage and often ends in indifference and disgust. Exhaustion and self-reproach make the eye evil not only toward the instruments of excess, but toward the person who tempts to it.

His solution? Sex without ejaculation.