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Day 5 Depression, pua friend drama
I'm on day 5, feeling very depressed. Dealing with being lonely but also I'm going to be honest. Over the past two weeks I've been going out to bars with this new friend of mine. He's all into Pua techniques, personally I don't feel comfortable using the techniques. But I thought what the hell why not? I'm really starting to doubt this stuff yet, I do want to get over my approach anxiety for nighttime events. It just doesn't feel natural, I don't feel comfortable walking by a girl and asking her how she feels about dating a guy who's friends with his ex, why should she care about something like that? I have an easier time during the day when just talking to women, sure my friend says small talk gets you know where but apparently it works for me. I've gotten rejected using these routines, I feel lame for using and admitting to using them. He has no problem using them. But, I have too much dignity I actually do care if someone thinks I'm a creep. I'm a sensitive guy, that's just how I am. Last night I didn't start a conversation with anyone and he was upset that I didn't use an "opener". And then told me that "small talk gets you know nowhere. Do you think I felt comfortable using 'said opener'? You have to keep using it."I feel more comfortable during the day. Maybe its because people aren't huddled together in groups, trying to get drunk. During the day everything I do is spontaneous, I don't go the mall thinking "Oh I need to open said set and use this to get her attention", forget that. If I feel like talking to anyone I will say "Hey, how are you?", but forcing myself to talk to someone when I'm not in the mood just doesn't make sense. Going through withdrawal makes it hard enough to initiate conversation as is. And dealing with negative reactions makes it worse. I just think I'm wasting my time with this stuff, yet at the same time I feel despair for my romantic life. I don't want to be in the same position I am in 6 years from now. Now my friend has signed up for a bootcamp. And that is as ridiculous as it is expensive!
For some reason its just hard to approach at night. I mean you can say hi but how many other guys have said that? Maybe I'm better off meeting women in the day. I just prefer to be myself, yeah I know I could ask such and such question to get girls attention (like my friend) but that seems to really get you nowhere. Sure, some of that pua stuff talks about improving your weaknesses and being confident. But I'm highly skeptical of this courting strategy. It just doesn't seem right. So, what I read instead is inner game. Self help techniques to better ME as a person, not to make me seem like someone else...On a positive note, I'm controlling the urges quite well I really have no interest in looking at porn. Don't know if its because I'm depressed or if I'm just sick of it in general. My mind's not as fuzzy as it was 5 days ago. My intellect is more prominent, the right words seem to find themselves. I'm thinking of changing my diet, I've been working out quite a lot these past few days. I need to go back to taking fish oil supplements, that really helped my ability to focus. I'm still practicing martial arts and getting better. I've been really dedicated to music and art. I bought some pencils so I could start sketching again. My guitar playing is also getting quite good. Speaking of guitar, I think I'll play some Zeppelin.
- ineedstrength's blog
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Comments
Dude
Withdrawal is hard enough without having someone beat you up about how "you aren't talking to chicks right."
I'm big on the "Inner Game" stuff. I think that is where "pick up" (if you even want to call it that) begins...and ends. There is no reason why you should feel bad for not being into doing canned openers in extremely difficult and even hostile social environments like bars. There are people who have made it their life's ambition to defeat the kind of approach anxiety that all men feel in such situations when there are attractive women around. Yet there is no rule that says *you* also have to be one of those guys. You can be *very* successful at dating and never even set foot in a bar! I read a
dating book once that I thought was really good and has nothing to do with bars.
http://www.amazon.com/Get-Dates-Without-Drinking-Doctors/dp/0970570627
I also read another book titled "How To Succeed With Women." It's worth a gander. I read both of these books probably 4 or 5 years ago now. I've learned the lessons they teach and I am more confident with five years experience on and off in the dating world. (Got two different girlfriends along the way, now I believe I've met someone right for me...that could last.)
One of the *major* problems with "pick up" in general is the extreme overemphasis on sex and getting sex. This website stands in marked contrast to the idea of sexual conquests being the "goal." I am here because I want to learn a new way of relating to women, through bonding based sex. There are contradictions with the whole "going caveman" ethos that is frankly sexist.
On the other hand there is a need for us loners who are trying to get out from under the addiction to porn and masturbation to be around and make friends with members of the sex we are attracted to so that we can enjoy some of the benefits of simple, soothing bonding behaviors. I tried some pick up lines and just like you didn't feel like it was "naturally me" to do that. I also don't enjoy competition of any kind in social situations where an Alpha Male is trying to keep me sidelined or one of my "friends" wants to cockblock. I'm totally gonna exit any kind of situation like that. So what worked for me was online dating. Of course there are pick up gurus out there who are selling advice on that. Feel free to read my blog on the topic.
To me the advantages are: you can meet in the day time, you meet one on one (very important), you *already know* she likes you because she has responded to your ad (lots of psychological pressure comes off my shoulders at that one.) It takes a little of the guess work out and you can focus on you being your best self, taking her to an interesting coffee house and tell her about your interests.
Incidentally if you are musician a great way to meet women is at gigs. There are not enough gigs for all the musicians out there but if you are persistent and determined you will find them and play at some local venues. Keep optimistic there are people who have gone before us who have succeeded so why can't we?
Dano
Great observation
Aha! I was hoping I wasn't the only guy who recognized this.
It's a shame there aren't more good role models in the "pick up" community. I think a lot of guys get led astray when they start looking around for help on how to get a date, see all the sex-worship, and then assume that's how they should act, too, even if it wasn't their natural inclination.
The ideas here really helped me avoid getting sucked into that trap.
Sorry to bump an old thread, but I hadn't read it until now.
I don't mind you bumping something I wrote...
haha.
I agree there will probably be someone who will make some money as the "feminist pick up artist" although no one who is feminist would call themselves that. Lately I've gotten onto an idea that may resonate. What if the proliferation of porn helped create the "online pickup community" in the first place by making a generation of men feel like utter crap about themselves because they "weren't good enough" to get the kind of sex they were constantly inundating themselves with through porn? It's like porn created the problem and the "pua"s (I hate the term "pick up artist.")
I got on the "sex-worship" bandwagon and it cost me. Sure I had a lot of sex with a lot of different girls. In the end I felt more empty...and got an STD to boot! Much of what passes for "pick up" advice is completely common sense that anyone willing to try something new could have figured out on their own. The other half is like a collection of self help books that want to tell you you can bend a spoon with your brain if you want to. Mumbo jumbo and snake oil, that's what it is. And people like Mystery and David Deangelo are laughing all the way to the bank.
My friend is really into
My friend is really into this. Me, I'm just building my inner game. And what I've noticed is that women choose me. I can tell if a girl's interested if I'm looking straight ahead and she's just slowly walking by and I see her staring me down in my peripherals.
, Or lets say I'm sitting in a bar and watching a band play, and this girl sipping her drink is just staring at me. Now I can act on that because, there is attraction there. But for me to go up to a random girl and try to buy her time with canned openers...that is not going to work. Because, you can't make someone attracted to you, that's what these pickup gurus try to tell you. But, you can't make someone attracted to you. Just like those same guys don't want girls that are stereotypically beautiful. They won't give any other girl the time of day. And the same mindset can be applied to women. Some women are only interested in certain types of guys. They aren't going to just pick you because you have the greatest opener and routines 'stacked', 
. Also being direct is the best way to be in life. It took a while for me to find that out due to being shy...but after being around people and approaching girls I started coming out of my shell. I feel that it shows courage to just go up to a girl and say hi and compliment her, I don't care if these gurus say "Don't do that!" It has worked for me in the past. They tell you not to do that because, if it works you will disregard their teachings. Why go through all the trouble of using openers and routines to not see any effect? I've been out for probably 4 or 5 weeks...my friend says that he's been able to get numbers and a few kisses. However, I haven't seen that when we go out.
I've only seen him hold a girl's attention a few times and once he tried to see if he could get a girl (he wasn't interested in!) to kiss him. I think that's hurtful to just use someone for that purpose...he only goes for very attractive women. Me, I find alot more women to be attractive than he does. I'm not that shallow. (There's always something sexy about everyone, did I just say sexy?
But then again I'm abstaining so that would make me see more about a woman, than what most guys see. I told my friend how I could attract a girl, by doing nothing. Its just the same way men are attracted to women by their appearance and attitude. I don't walk into places and have women swooning over me, but I can tell if someone likes me. I feel more comfortable meeting women during the day. Most people just go to bars to have fun, not all women are there to talk to men. Some are there for that reason but you can't assume they all are. I've been reading up on Natural Game and denouncing the routine based pickup. There are some things that work, like being confident, sharing a story about yourself, but I did this stuff before I started learning the material. I don't need it, I'm confident enough to just be myself. I'd like to just have casual dating, like go to the see band or cuddle up watching a movie. Just to have fun and see whats out there. I thought of taking up salsa dancing out of curiosity.
Woman's perspective
We are out socializing because we want to meet you.
So however "lame" or "canned" the opener, it doesn't matter. It's the eye contact and the smile that count.
Remember, when you make the effort to talk with us, it makes our night "successful" too.
Doh!
Thanks Marnia, I always forget these simple facts!
Some of the PUA stuff has
Some of the PUA stuff has it's place minus the misogynistic stuff, but meeting women in bars and clubs is probably not the best idea for someone who suffers any level of social anxiety. Women have their defenses up in these evironments and probably rightfully so. There's the tempatation to drink too much (liquid courage and all that) and women don't like a drunk guy. If you want to meet women in a fun, no pressure environment, try something like mixed touch football or soccer, social dancing, charity work. Then just interact, flirt and wait for the magic to happen.
Also keep in the mind, no matter how much experience you have approaching women, that nervous feeling in the pit of your stomach never goes away. Even the most experienced PUAs still crap their pants on every approach, they just have learnt how to conceal it and roll with it. Don't use that feeling of apprenhension as an excuse not to approach...it never goes away.
Well said
It's scary for us, too.
Just like there are good
Just like there are good artists and lame artists, there are guys who use techniques to better themselves and there are guys who are cheesy. "Geeks with techniques". In my opinion, the idea is to get past canned openers and get to a place where people can see your real self that youve hidden behind layers of shame and poor personal paradigms for years. Inner game is way more important than trying to "score"
I agree with Dano, if the purpose is focused on end results only, the experience is going to be shallow. If you use your experience as a vehicle for personal growth and learning to reconnect yourself, that is a much better attitude. But yes, there are tons of cheeseballs out there using PUA techniques. The best way is to develop deep inner game and all of your actions and words will be spontaneous and natural, not canned. However, I wont say that external PUA techniques have 0 value because sometimes just getting out there and forcing yourself to get past your fear of talking to people can be very helpful to those of us that are naturally isolated and shy. 90% inner game 10% Pick up.
There really are two schools of thought developing in PUA, the inner game and straight pick up. Use pick up for what it is and just go out and have fun. You are lucky that you have a friend that is out there pushing you to your edge. you dont have to use canned openers, its more like an art. Use certain elements that you like, garner some lesson from it and discard the rest. As far as being in withdrawals while doing this, yes its certainly more painful, but as you are recovering you are naturally going to be less hard on yourself. If you are going out and and being hard on yourself, that is what is destructive. Use it as a time to just observe the atmosphere, socialize with your friends and enjoy a night out. There are tons of lessons in inner game that you can do while out that doesnt involve "pick up". The main thing is living an awesome life that YOU like and the rest will follow.
Just keep doing your work and handling your depression and things will fall into place over time. Try to avoid this kind of thinking-
"But, I have too much dignity I actually do care if someone thinks I'm a creep."
You are not a creep for wanting to talk to women and you any lack of dignity coming from this kind of interaction is the result of not owning your desires.
Good luck to you, I know how hard this stuff is during withdrawals and restructuring your entire life and outlook. Just by applying some of these principles talked about by Marnia and Gary and conquering porn, you are doing a lot for yourself, even if it doesnt show results for a while. They say that you really dont see solid results in recovery programs for a few years, so be patient and see the immediate obvious fluctuations of mood and your perception as indications that something deeper is happening.
Courage is knowing what not to fear.
-Plato