friend or girlfriend

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Alright so me and my girlfriend have been getting along very well lately.

we both felt a strong connection from the beginning and had talks like if we stay together eventually moving/and or living together, soulmates, possible marriage, etc.,   Now at first this was a mutual thing and she initiated a lot of this type of conversation.

Over the weekend, we couldn't have sex bc we were interupted, killed the moment, she likes things to be perfect and private, and she got sexually frustrated and blew up at me.

Yesterday on the phone, we talked about sex a little like normal, but today it was different, she acted like she didn't want to really talk about it. Then she mentioned that she had used some porn last night. Today she started talk to me like she didn't really want our relationship to be so serious, wants it more like in the beginning where we were friends and went on dates and stuff and just generally see each other less and she wants more time to work on herself.

I can see the working on herself part, but it's kinda more of a thing you integrate into relationships, right? But, that aside, I really think this is the porn talking, the whole I don't want to be that serious anymore thing. We are in diffiocult living situations as far as having alone and private time for sex and I am afraid she will just decide she doesn't really need me and turn to porn.

I could use advice here? should I say something about the porn?

I see that she may need time to think about things, but she has issues and it's getting  a little harder for me to care about her the way I do if she keeps pushing me away and being wishy wasy sometimes and i think a lot simply has to do with those issues. She told me today that it bothered her that I am so sensitive about some of the things she says.

I thought about reflecting the same thought back to her that I need more time to myself too, which sounds manipulative, but knowing the girl and situation its more like a power balancing thing, and it could help me anyway

I had a dream the other night where we were hanging out and she was taking me for granted and I walked out on her and she was suddenly like oh shit and followed after me and was wondering if this dream is telling me this is what I need to do, something to make her realize she is actually afraid of losing me.

I've seriously though about telling her that if she isn't going to emotionally invest in me anymore, we should just break it off completely until she decides we can. I know it sound a dick thing to do but I feel she is very much taking me for granted. She always says I am the best man she has ever met but latelly even though she still treats me good, it doesn't feel as if she is putting as much into it or something. And she wants the relationship one moment and doesn't the next sometimes

shes put me through a lot of tests and found what she needs to know about me, maybe it's time I tested her

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She definitely sounds

post-orgasmic.

Usually a couple of weeks, no ultimatums, little talking and regular affection are the best cure for that ailment...but sometimes that just isn't an option.

When you feel like she's more centered, you can give her this article if you think she'd find it interesting:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201307/porn-pr...

It may help her see herself. If she's *really* open, try this one: Women: Does Orgasm Give You a Hangover?

Try to realize that you're not seeing the real her at the moment. Her perception is off. Unfortunately, this is not unusual. But it can be temporary if you two manage your sexual energy carefully.

Don't bolt. Stay on your surfboard. You could be learning important things.

Actually she has tried

Actually she has tried pushing me away a few times, and usually I was there in person, talked through it, calmed here down, then after some cuddling she would change her tune. Unfortunately she is now in control of the next time we cuddle.

I'd say something to her about the porn

Maybe Marnia can suggest an article or two.

If you have quit porn, you could tell her why and what the results have been for you.

About her friendzoning you... It sounds like she hasn't said definitely what she wants to do yet. She might not call you for a while. It could be another test - and that sort of test sucks!

My suggestion is do not call her. (Or you might call or email her _only_ to deliver some friendly advice about porn.) Let her call you if she is interested in continuing the relationship. Meanwhile, effective immediately, consider yourself free to date other women. That doesn't mean you _have_ to immediately go looking, but you should feel free to look, and be alert for opportunities. If / when she calls, wait for her to bring up the subject of whether or not to continue the relationship. If she wants to continue, fine, nothing more needs to be said. If she wants to be just friends, don't resist in any way, just say in a relaxed, friendly way (not a spiteful way) "That's fine. If you are not ready for a committed relationship, then I will feel free to look around and date other women. You're welcome to call if you want to go on a date or get back together."

Good luck!

But she has said she won't be

But she has said she won't be seeing anyone else, just work on herself and we still go on "dates", but not really said anything whether we will still be sexual, like friends with benefits, or whatever.

But is she just doing this so I won't want to date anyone else while she works whatever out....?  Does it actually mean she wants to keep me around in a way?

Actually our relationship started with this "friends first" thing, then one day she kissed me, and one day we fooled around and it led to sex, and she still kept saying we were "friends" until a few weeks ago. Do I still want to say I'm seeing other people?

I agree with the guys

You don't want to be "kept around in a way."

If you can't engage in daily bonding behaviors, your only option may be to calmly remove yourself from the situation. If she continues to use porn, there's very little hope just now because she will likely continue to project her "fallout" onto you.

If you excuse yourself (calmly, without burning any bridges), she'll have to look at herself. Also, you have nothing to lose at that point by sending her the articles about women and porn use. She may not be ready to look at herself candidly enough just yet, but she may. That's beyond your control.

Clinging to partners like a life raft never works. Whether she "sobers up" or not, it's good for you to realize that if you could attract her, you can attract someone else. Maybe you want to check out future partners' porn habits before getting more deeply involved. If you've been reading on this forum for the last few years, you've seen how porn use can cloud perception.

Think about all the benefits you've received from this connection. Let it make you confident about whatever is next, whether it's her or someone else. It has been a good experience on the whole. Relationships are very tough just now thanks to our hyper-sexual, hypo-intimacy habits interfering with normal human mating behavior. But you like a challenge, right?

I also know this sucks. *big hug*

Thoughts

Clearly PMO does not offer clear thinking for a man or a woman. Obviously this is not something you can control.

What I would do if II were you is decide what YOU want and where YOU are going. Set limits and boundaries that work for YOU. Search your heart and soul for your path. Dancing around a partners wants does nothing to strengthen a relationship in the long run. Find out what works for you and live by that. Know and find your direction, and life will unfold closer to your truths.

Very much agree

I was going to write something similar. Figure out what you want, and what your boundaries are (what you are willing to put up with).

Has she actually _said_ that she doesn't want you to date other women, or are you just assuming that? What are your conditions for staying in an exclusive relationship?

Would you be contented with going back to the "cuddly thing" without sex, for a while at least? If so, you could tell her that you'd love to just cuddle, without any expectations of anything else - no sex, no talking if she doesn't feel like talking. If she doesn't even want to cuddle, I would want to know why.

When you were having sex, were you two having orgasms? If so, it might help you if you blame the current situation on the orgasms, rather than blaming stuff on her. And if you do have sex again, try karezza.

Since I started practicing karezza 3 1/2 years ago, the drama in my marriage has decreased greatly, in both frequency and intensity. It's been amazingly peaceful around here, compared to how it was before. I also feel better, physically. In particular, I no longer have desperate cravings for sexual release. I still have desire for sex (now karezza) and for cuddling, but it's no longer an unpleasant, desperate, distracting, crawling-up-the-walls sort of craving. By giving up orgasms, I feel like I have become free from an addiction.

Orgasms make (some) people crazy!

She had said she still wants

She had said she still wants to talk to me everyday or almost,, so she will be calling me, but I'm thinking I should tell her I need to think or don't want to talk right now and give her time to rebalance b4 I hit her with this stuff. What do you guys think?

 

My inclination

would be to tell her about the effects of porn and orgasm as soon as possible. If she admits that she is a bit crazy, then it could be easier: "These articles might help explain what's making you crazy." If she doesn't admit that she's crazy, then I guess you have to be a bit more tactful. Smile

I'm not sure what to say about getting into long phone conversations. I've had multi-hour long conversations with one woman who would talk a lot about problems she had with her family. I actually enjoyed those conversations, because it seemed like she was really trying to solve those problems, and she gave my occasional suggestions serious consideration, so I felt like I was really helping. Another woman would talk for hours about conflicts and other events at work, and a lot of criticism of various people at work and in her family. There was also a lot of repetition in what she said. That was not so enjoyable to listen to. She dismissed my occasional suggestions - after a while I didn't even try to say anything - and I wondered "What is the POINT of all this talk? What are you trying to accomplish by telling me all that stuff?"

So I guess it depends on whether you enjoy the conversation. If you get bored, you could say "I'm getting kind of tired. Ya want to come over and just cuddle for a while? No strings attached."

I'm real curious to hear her reaction to an invitation to just cuddle.

There has always been a lot

There has always been a lot of bonding behaviors between us.

The next day after she hit me with all the above stuff, she invited me over to "talk." She was wearing something sexy and cooked me dinner. Sometime during the conversation, I told her I was thinking about it, but hadn't decided on seeing other people. She got pretty  mad and said she would see other people if I did.

In this conversation, she said she just wanted to slow things down and she wanted time to work out her issues. We went for a walk and by the end she was holding my hand and kissed me goodbye. Sometime during the walk, she slipped and called me her boyfriend, it was kind of an "aha" moment for me. Two days later she invited me over and said basically we were going to make love that night, and she told me during the course of the night that she had just gotten scared. I know she has had issues from previous relationships, she has always been honest with me. This morning, after a great night with her, she told me that what a person says isn't as important as what a person does and that if a girl says she doesn't really want to be around me, and yet keeps spending time with me, well guess what it means? I think that answers a lot of my questions....

We have had some orgasm based lovemaking and some not. She did read the first article about porn, thanks Marnia. She hasn't really said anything about it to me, and I know her well enough to wait until she does. We had a conversation about it leading up to her reading it and she was a little defensive about her habit, but I think she listens and is open if I talk to her about things. Even if she is defensive and acts stubborn on the outside, I know she goes and thinks about things I tell her.

I'm pretty sure she will accept it more readily if I have her read a book in the realm of non-orgasmic or taoist/tantric lovemaking than if I try to explain it, though.

Take 2 Giant Steps Back and Then Look at It

From previous threads I know that you had a hard time establishing a relationship with someone special. But you need to look at the potential cost of this relationship. Sometimes no relationship is better than a bad relationship. This goes for any kind of relationship, sexual or even business. I realize that when you are lonely and you are sort of with someone; you think, well at least I have someone. So I don’t say this lightly, but you need to step back from this relationship and really take a careful look at it from a distance.

Marnia, CuriousFellow, and Darryl have all expressed concern with your “girlfriend” and the relationship. Those are 3 people that give really good comments/advice on this site. I pretty much agree with about everything they said. Each of us will have different things that we see as a problem; these are my top 3 red flags from what you said.

“Don’t pay attention to what I said before, figure out what I meant by what I say I am doing now.” I have obviously paraphrased but that is essentially what she told you. That would drive me frickin nuts and is the sure sign of a wack job.

You said she keeps “testing you”. What are you a science experiment? This is like so high school—way too much drama with this girl.

You are not her BFF. Telling you all her problems, especially past relationships, is what she should do with her girlfriends or therapist, not her boyfriend. This is basically “friend-zoning” you. Similar to CuriousFellow’s comments about his experiences; my guess is she does not really want to solve any of the issues, she just wants to vent. Remind her that a “vent” is for exhausting hot air. With the caveat that I do listen when my girlfriend has a problem she wants to talk about. But she never just whines on about stuff aimlessly simply to complain.

Getting with just anybody isn’t the goal, finding someone that you really love is. You can’t find a good person if you are stuck with a bad one or at least someone with a bunch of problems with which you don’t want to cope. If you want to find someone that you will want to spend your life with ask yourself these questions about them:

Do you always want to be with her and touch her even if you are just doing normal stuff (laundry, exercising, shopping)?

Do you laugh and have fun together and enjoy each other; basically does she make you happy?

Does putting your arm around her and she puts her head on your chest just melt your heart?

Do you want her to get to know your family and be part of your family and you with hers?

Can you picture her as the mother of your children and are happy when she says she wants to have kids with you?

If you answer these questions honestly then you will have a better idea how you really feel about this girl and the relationship. You need to think with your big head not your little head; even the hint of sex will make guys put up with shit and do stupid stuff. That is how people get in bad relationships and then bad marriages. There is nothing wrong with having a relationship with someone even if they are not “the one”, just as long as you realize it and don’t try to make it into something it is not.