Kissing Reform

Submitted by IndividualPerson on
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In the old days people coordinated their problems and connected big things to small things through correspondences. For example, the Kaballah has the symbolic Sephira that connect something like "Severity" with like, your right hip. In Taoism the Cosmic principles of Yin and Yang and the five elements are made to correspond with and give meaning to various pairs of organs in the body. This is a very healthy minded way to look at the world which (depending on your point of view) either gives meaning to even the smallest thing, or helps reveal the meaning of the smallest things. I think that the latter is true and want reveal the meaning of such a small thing as kissing both in terms of the sexuality it prefigures and the kind of culture it is a ritual of. This is also a practical thing since I think the normal way of kissing actually has an intrinsic meaning that pulls against healthy sexual intimacy.

Of course "Kissing Reform" is an intrinsically funny sort of notion but I don't see why being funny should detract from anything.

so. The following is mostly taken from a post I made to another site:

"this morning I had the thought that kissing contributed (among other more important things) to the unsustainability of my first experiment in tantra with another person or more precisely in, healing sexuality with another person.

Here is my basic idea: basically the face is a kind of holon of the whole being with, lets say the eyes symbolic of the mind, the nose symbolic of the heart, the mouth, lips, and tongue symbolic of the sexual and reproductive organs (I think I once read something like this in a taoist books somewhere). The third eye would then symbolize the soul or intuition. therefor the healthy kissing that would prefigure and set the scene for equally healthy tantric sexuality would presumably involve not only what is called the "tantric Kiss" ( the touching of the third eyes) but also prolonged periods or eye gazing, "rubbing noses", and yes of course the normal lips and tongue kissing.

Kissing Correspondances (I tried to paste my Table here but the following is what showed up, sorry Let me try to fix it);

Elder”, related to Third Eye Area Third Eye Kiss
Eternity and others Spiritual Affirmations,
in terms of ultimate things) Prayers, invocations

Mind (“Inner Adult”, Eyes Eye Gazing Truth Telling, Frankness
related to the Future and
to the other as fellow

Heart (“Inner Child”, Nose Rubbing Noses; Mindfulness Breathing
Related to the Past, and Breathing Together with Breathing Meditation
to the other as Noses side to side

Body/Genitalia (“Inner Animal”, Mouth and Tongue Kissing And Tongue Keeping the eyes open,
related to Present and to the other Kissing Keeping mindfulness
as Family-Member) of breathing etc can
help sustain a mood of
compassionate and
healing intimacy Also
experimenting with
a gentle slow or
motionless, touching
of tongues

what I think happened with my ex-partner (of 7 0r 8 years ago now) is that our kisses, (which were exclusively of the passionate lips and tongue variety initiated by rather unmedatitatve eye contact) were prefiguring the normal, one-dimensional 3rd chakra ego-sexuality, so that when we did eventually get to the sexual thing our tantric/taoist experiment was undermined by the mood set up in the foreplay... know what I mean?

Anyway, being with out a partner these days, I'm not in a position to do more than thought experiments in this particular area so I thought I would just share my theory with folks and maybe get some feedback. Who knows, maybe there is a whole book on the subject..."

end of quote from previous post.

In addition to just sharing these Ideas here, I wanted to show how even something as "small" as Kissing can and should be related to and a part of something as big as the commitment to relate to self and other as a whole individual-person as a part of a practice of a healthy culture intended to gradually replace the existing sick one. I probably didn't succeed in this but I'll keep trying...Maybe it all depend on how well my fixing of the table proves to be once I finally post this (I think I've gotten myself into such a fix that I won't be able to edit further once I post this, so if the table still turns out to be gibberish, at least you know I tried,




Very interesting

Many sacred sex traditions suggest rituals to "get in the mood." Even the author of the first karezza book suggested reading something inspirational before making love, presumably to set a higher tone. Makes sense.

Why no partner? Are you seeking one?

why no partner

It seems to be that, though I can be (usually extremely fleetingly) attracted by physical appearance, (less fleetingly by certain other qualities), the way to my heart really seems to be through my conscience. To me the world is like a house on fire in which the people who are not actually burning are basically stupefied by the smoke for the most part. I am often stupefied myself to some extent yet I have never been able to want to be more so or to want to distract myself with anything not clearly related to and ordered by the need to find most appropriate and beautiful response to the inner and outer fire (and smoke) of the sick culture that is the main thing that is happening. I am seeking comrades in an experiment in healthy culture as a whole; people seriously willing to experiment with a kind of cultural pilot project/twelve step program which experiments in healing sexuality would be only one part (that is if the details of the actual situation made it seem appropriate at all...). The whole collaboration has to be governed by...for lack of a better word, "Good Will" and not be motivated by some kind of investment in some kind of sustainable private intimacy, even if that might actually end up happening. I mean depending on the details, the most intelligent and conscientious thing for two people stumbling across each other in a burning building to do might be (after getting on the same page about what is happening) to split up, since other aspects of the problem of the fire might obviously take president over dealing with that aspect of it (or whatever would be analogous to sexuality in such a situation). Anyone making a Priority of finding a sexual parter (even a healing one) in the burning building of our culture would seem to me obviously under the influence of the "smoke" and therefore (hopefully temporarily) lacking in the capacity for intimacy even with their own conscience and heart let alone with anyone else. Again, I am not saying that some such thing might not play a part but as a primary motivation or consideration, it betrays some kind of unconsciousness of the nature of the main disease (to revert to the metaphor of the prior post--which I intent to respond to later). At the very least there needs to be a clear reason why and how dealing with this particular symptom first is crucial to the successful treatment of the underlying disease, which presupposes some tentative consensus as to what that disease is in the first place as what a realistic plan of treatment for it would be. All of this cant just sound good, but has to be approached critically and concientiously, the way people do when the really want to be effective in actually doing some sustainable good and are not just trying to stroke each other and bond around how enlightened and superior they are....

So when I meet people (no matter what their physical attactiveness or even gender) my main attempt is to get on the same page about the fire and smoke of sick culture that seems to be the main thing that is happening so that we can come to consensus on what to do about it together. Most people respond as if the whole topic were either a personal accusation or an invitation to join some kind of elite group of people who magically do not suffer from the fire and smoke themselves despite having been born into it like everyone else (Occasionally someone will behave as though they think I am just trying to impress them with my "depth" so I can get in their pants or something). The "Cultural Twelve Step thing" just doesn't have any food for anyones ego nor does it amount to the kind of junk food for the heart (or "Inner Child") that normal romance does. At the same time the equally toxic junk food for the mind (or "Inner Adult") that is found in most selfrighteous political stances, (as well the the junk food for the soul that is narcisistic politically oblivious "personal growth") is also absent. My thing is about inner AND outer healing considered as equal and inseparable, and this implies, among other things, the conscientious, primary and ongoing acknowledgment of the reality of both inner and outer sickness. This seems to be a nonstarter for just about everybody, even when the give lip service agreement to it....

It occurs to me that people want mental, emotional, and spiritual "orgasms" just a much as they want physical ones and for analogous reasons (I am not sure that the evolutionary explanation for people wanting the latter is the most useful way of looking at it) so, since my "healthy culture" recovery approach seems to require foregoing those "orgasms" as well, its even more of a "hard sell "so to speak, than karezza/tantra. Its also clear to me that the inner and outer benefits of something like the "cultural recovery program" i propose (which would of course include experiments in a similar form of non-orgasmic sexuality when appropriate) would be similar in kind to the benefits you are probably experiencing with your partner, though I think they would be much more various, profound and meaningful as well as much less private. Actually I think that as long as people are seeking these other kinds of "orgasms", the real meaning purpose and potential the kind of sexuality we are talking about cannot be realized at all.

anyway, I think I have probably more than answered your question but let me know...


I realize

I'm just not going to be able to hear anything you have to say unless you have read my book.

You're so far off in your constant mischaracterizations of my views that it would be too time-consuming to reinvent the wheel for you here.


which book are you talking about?

peace between the sheets or the cupid one? You yourself told me that the Cupid on was basically just Peace between the sheets with a little repackaging and updating. Also, I was not aware of making any characterizations of your views in this post. I was just trying to answer your question about why I'm not in a relationship...

What I say is

that acquiring Peace is not worth it because Cupid  is much better and more up to date. I don't ever recall saying the reverse, so there has been some confusion.

I tried to recreate that

I tried to recreate that table. I'm not understanding where some data goes. If you can make the table in spreadsheet software such as Excel, you can then paste it in as rich text. Use the preview function to confirm that it looks as intended before posting. You can edit your own posts by clicking edit below your post or above if you've made the inital post. 

I did try....

my computer has Open Office so I did the table in that. Unfortunatedly RTF is not a "save-as" option.

I took out the table column headings though, which seems to make the four sets of correspondences seem to clump together more coherently. the headings (which would have been in bold face above each column were: 1 PART OF WHOLE INDIVIDUAL, 2 PART OF FACE 3 KISSING GESTURE 4OTHER POSSIBLY APPROPRIATE GESTURES

Again these correspondences have not been actually tested by me so the appropriates of the gestures, and even the parts of the face (maybe one should include the whole head) is not confirmed at all. I present it mostly as something to show what I mean about connecting sex to other things

for example the left hand column about the whole individual (or really the whole individual-person) is my nominee for a nonfactional "us-and-us" rather than "us-and-them" identity-politics which would form a part of a healthy culture and a healthy society and economy (I will explain this later) and so it facilitates connecting such "big" issues with something as intimate as kissing and sexuality...and not in a contrived way but in a way that seems natural once one understands the whole healthy culture Idea...

But I also do mean the table as some thing to experiment with and modify in consensus with ones partner as an experiment in one of the rituals of healthy culture...the ritual would become more meaningful the more one understood healthy culture as a whole (which as I say is not just about sexual healing but about cultural, social, political, economic, infrastructural, etc healing as well...(the world "Healing" after all has the root meaning of Wholeness "heal/hale/holy/whole"....

anyway, thanks for being interested and for trying to help


Open Office has spread sheet

Open Office has spread sheet software called Calc. 

Alternatively you could build a table in this site's rich text entry box by selecting the table icon, to the right of where it says "Normal". I wouldn't worry too much about the formatting. If the rows and columns are arranged correctly, I can make proper sense of what you're trying to convey. Have you based this ideas on any particular source? 



I meant to say "I tried "open office spreadsheet" not just "open office". Also, something tells me you might not have read my reply to your last post since it quotes your question to me in the subject space...I had the idea that you might have thought it was a post you yourself made, or that you might do so if you waited long enough before coming back to this thread. As I type this I realize that that is not very likely but I mention it just in case...

"Have you based this ideas on any particular source?"

Certainly not in any systematic, consistent, or loyal sort of way. The model for the " Individual" aspect of individual-personhood is corresponds roughly to Jungs Idea of the Psychological
Functions, for example (except he doesn't have this "inner-elder", "inner adult" etc way of talking about it). Jung also spoke of a "Persona", an aspect of his psychology that was developed further by Andrew Hopke, but the Idea of a point-for-point correspondence in the social or "horizontal" world of relationships to the subjective "vertical" world of Individual psychology, as well a the specific concept of "Personhood" (and Individual-Personhood") being proposed is my idea. Moreover, all of this fits in to a larger paradigm of healthy culture which I certainly understand to be something outside any existing discipline I have ever heard of, even anthropology...

But to briefly explain Individual-Personhood further; for any function on the vertical "axis" of Individual subjectivity there corresponds a "venue" in the horizontal "Nexus" of intrinsic relationship that is social Personhood. Thus the Mind or Thinking function (or "Inner Adult") of the Individual corresponds to the "Civil" venue of the "Person", the Heart or Feeling Function ( or "Inner Child") corresponds to the "Local" or "Neighborhood" venue of the Person, the Body or the "Sensing function" (or the Inner Animal") corresponds in the vertical to the horizontal Familial Venue of Personhood, and the Intuitive aspect of the individual Psyche (the part I refer to as the "Inner Elder" corresponds in the vertical to the socio-religious venue of the Soul (that is to ones relationship to others in terms of ultimate things. The relation of the Vertical of Individuality and the horizontal of Pershood is like the relation for up/down to north south east and west or like the relationship or electricity to magnetism, there is a kind of paradoxical unity involved, and so i do not speak of Individuality and Personhood but of Individual-Personhood....

there is a discussion of all this in one of my other blogs here: That blog has a lot of unposted posts which I am editing after having lost my previous blog Host and having to move my blog to Blogspot, but it still probably serves as a fair introduction to what I mean by healthy culture. The specific post I have Linked to also has a table that might clarify my kissing idea. If not I will just try in another post here to explain my failed table in words as, at least at the moment, I am not excited about making yet another attempt to post it here...,

let me know what you think if you read the post I linked to

thanks again,


Formatted table

I reworked this table with IndividualPerson. I have posted it with his permission. Column widths have been condensed to improve the readability of the table on this site.

Part of Whole Individual  Temporal Aspect Related to Part of Face Gesture  Other Appropriate Gestures
("Inner Elder”)
Eternity  Others in terms of ultimate things Third Eye area  Third Eye Kiss (touch third eye areas together) Prayers, invocations, spiritual affirmations
(“Inner Adult”)
Future  Other as fellow citizen-of-the-world Eyes  Eye Gazing  Truth telling, frankness
(“Inner Child”)
Past  Other as Neighbor Nose Rubbing Noses Mindfulness breathing and breathing together/meditation with noses side to side 
Body/Genitalia (“Inner Animal”) Present Other as Family-Member Mouth and Tongue  Kissing and
Tongue Kissing
Kissing keeping the eyes open, keeping mindfulness, breathing etc. can help sustain a mood of compassionate healing intimacy