Incredibly frustrated; long-term Karezza experiment not working out.

Submitted by Kioavito on
Printer-friendly version

A few moments ago I did something I haven't done in almost a year: I masturbated to porn. It wasn't a momentary slip-up; I carefully considered my options, looked at the insufferable pressure I was feeling (physically feeling), and decided I am going to do it.
I've been PMO-free for many months now. For almost as long, I've been trying to practice karezza with my wife. I read Cupid Poisoned Arrow cover-to-cover, and then read some of my highlights again, and then one more time. It's not working for me.
My wife feels incredibly guilty about touch, even though I make absolutely no demands. I don't try to initiate sex because I know she's not interested. She feels bad in her own body. I offered her a massage (non-sexual, with clothes on), and she doesn't want that, either.
The only form of constant contact she agrees to is me cuddling her, with clothes, when we turn in for the day. Nothing else feels good to her.
I know that my masturbating now I just made matters worse, but honestly, I just don't know what to do. I'm a true believer in karezza -- I know it is true. I know that orgasm-based sex doesn't work and only results in more frustration. I know that bonding cues are important, and I understand the whole oxytocin thing.
So why can't I make it work?
At a complete loss now. Pretty sad and frustrated. :(



She never had an active

She never had an active libido. When we started out the relationship, the agreement was that she'll just cooperate. We agreed that she doesn't have to feel aroused, just play along and it'd be fine. That worked for a year or two, but eventually she started feeling resentment. Then I tried all sorts of things, until I found karezza last year. It absolutely feels like the right solution for us, but I can't make theory into reality so far.

Yesterday we actually had a good talk. She was feeling guilty about everything and I explained that I don't think she's doing anything wrong (because I really don't) and told her that as long as she's feeling guilty, nothing's going to work. Explained that the most important thing for me is that she'll feel okay -- that first, and any actions only after that.

maybe try bonding in non-physical ways?

sorry to hear about your frustrations Kioavito. The disappointment you're experiencing really comes though.

I was thinking that if your wife is having trouble with touch, maybe there are other, non-physical ways you could bond with her?

I've spent some time studying psychopathy and there are some interesting lessons involved regarding bonding. It may sound strange, but I think if you bear with me for a minute it will make some sense. Psychopaths have an uncanny ability to bond with their victims, and I've seen it described as a caricature of what should happen in a normal, healthy relationship. While psychopaths use such bonding for control, domination and other predatory means, I think normal men can learn the process of observing our loved ones to see what they want and need, and use it to strengthen the relationship.

It's described here a bit better:

You see, in reading "Women Who Love Psychopaths," I realized that the things that a psychopath does, the things that WORK in baiting, capturing, bonding women are obviously caricatures of things that ought to be manifested in positive ways. For example: a psychopath may use his eyes and words to entrance and bait a woman to his bed where he "bonds" with her via "super sex." He uses tender, romantic words, gestures, promises, etc etc.

On the other hand, normal guys (and I'll talk about guys here since most psychopaths are male) generally do not feel comfortable gazing into the eyes of their beloved, speaking romantic words, performing wildly romantic gestures and certainly, most men are sexually inhibited or downright juvenile in their sexual behavior. They also do not see sex as it ought to be seen, as one of the best opportunities for GIVING they have in their daily lives.

But a psychopath observes his prey, does all the things that he has learned will capture her, and then he bends her to his evil will.

Why don't normal men observe their intended - not as prey, but as the object of devotion and giving? Why don't they learn everything about her, what she is, what she wants, what she needs, and then give it to her as an act of love?

Well, that's one thing that occurs to me. And the reason I bring it up is, as I said, because the interaction between the psychopath and his prey is a caricature of what seems to be a selfless practice of great antiquity that we have completely lost.
Getting back to the caricature problem: As I said, I think that what psychopaths do is a caricature of what normal love between spiritual people might be like, how we evolved to interact with one another emotionally. Why do I think this? Because it seems to be similar to what happens in the process of neurochemical binding.
In short, it seems to me that what psychopaths do WORKS because they have observed women and know what to do to lure and capture them. And this works because these women have a certain "something" inside them that is looking for a REAL love and they mistake the caricature for the real because they are ignorant of the facts of psychopathy. They don't realize that they have "spiritual love binding sites" that can be bound by a "drug" (i.e. the psychopath) which does not act in the way the real neurochemical would act (i.e. the true spiritual love from a man who can GIVE and receive true love.)

This idea raises a lot of issues, not the least of which is what genuinely spiritual men need to do to get over their hang-ups and learn to give on all levels: mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually; and women who need to learn how to distinguish the true from the false.

That's pretty interesting. I

That's pretty interesting. I do try to bond in non-physical ways: We talk (I guess we should talk more, but what about?), and we watch her favorite show together (she explicitly asked for this, and I agreed -- it's several seasons long and we're just working through it several episodes at a time).

fascinating excerpt

Just my .02 as an English professor who specializes in 18th c. British literature. One of the novels I study, Clarissa by Samuel Richardson is an early portrayal of just this kind of male psychopath. The character Lovelace uses attentiveness, sympathy, and romantic gestures to lure his prey (Clarissa) into a brothel and eventually to rape her.The novel is told in letters and his letters reveal a great deal of observation of her and exactly what would "get" her to run away with him. In my own writing, I have a character who also uses expensive gifts, comforting gestures and passionate sex to ensnare a woman, in order to possess and abuse her later in the relationship.

I think non-psychopathic men think it is "weak" or "unmanly" to spend too much time thinking about how to please a woman. I once had a guy dismiss the idea that a smart straight adolescent male would participate in theater or dance to get girls; he said most guys gravitate towards team sports for status and fun, not to impress women. So if that is how nonpsychopaths think, it may be that they have to relearn the value of thinking about pleasing a woman.

Start from the beginning

Hi Kioavito,

There are several of us here who have 'locked down' partners. I see youve been here for 5 months at least, have you read their stories? If you dont know who i mean then holler and i can suggest some blogs to start with.

Its unfortunate but true that many people have emotional and intimacy residues from their upbringings that decades later continue to wreck havoc in our daily lives. I continue to find it interesting that this practice of karezza has an incredible ability to help heal such stuff.

If you are up for it, it might be best if you go back to the beginning and introduce yourself. There's a strong community here, and the degree that we can help out is usually related to the degree that you share your experiences with us.


Hey Treehouse,

Hey Treehouse,

I've been reading some of Emerson's writing, and a few of the others (was particularly impressed by Emerson, which is why I remember the name). Also read KevinJ's pieces (4 easy steps, and the sequel), discussing arousal and clitoral stimulation. Definitely open to more reading.

I don't mind introducing myself (won't give out too much personal info obviously). What would you like to know?

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Sounds really frustrating

Sometimes partners prefer to let sleeping dogs lie rather than open up to the next level. This happens in lots of relationships.

Did you tell her that you feel compelled to start masturbating again? That might kick her out of her trance.

Hey Marnia,

Hey Marnia,

First, I wanted to thank you for writing CPA. It's a fantastic book -- I bought it twice, actually (one Kindle edition, and then a paperback version too, just to have it on my shelf). I'm having trouble putting it into practice, but I can already tell you it changed my outlook on sex forever. So, thank you very much for all that you do!

Now, as for your question: I don't feel compelled to start masturbating again. I just wanted to do it once, but I'm not going back there -- it's not what I want for myself and for the relationship. I did tell her I decided to masturbate yesterday, and she started crying. She felt I was accusing her of something (she feels a lot of guilt on the subject), but I really wasn't.

This prompted a pretty good talk in which I explained nothing good will happen as long as she feels guilty, and that we have to work on increasing what's right rather than attacking what's wrong. I mean, improving the stuff that's already there.

I then led her to the bedroom and had her help me masturbate to orgasm, and then I did it again with her, at night. I feel this was pretty good, actually, because it had her participate and she could really tell she's making me happy. I think much of her guilt has to do with her sensing I'm not pleased, so this was important.

This morning I cuddled her like I usually do, and she seemed receptive (or passive, depends how you look at it) as usual.

Not sure where to take it from here.

Sounds like you have some work ahead of you

Not knowing all there is to know about your situation I would have to say its time to get to work. There are solutions, it may take some time but if you and yours are both committed it will get better. When you said you have been trying to practice Karezza with your wife; how did that go? What were your successes and what were your failures?

Let me tell you about one of

Let me tell you about one of the few successes first. We were spending the night away from home, at a friend's place. We were lying in bed, and suddenly I felt a big surge of love towards her. I took her clothes off, started touching her, had her lie on me. I was very gentle and slow, and she really got into it. It was slow, sensual, and spiritual -- just like it was supposed to be. It was absolutely amazing, for the both of us.

This was months ago, and I was unable to repeat that experience since. It's the one single time I really felt karezza working for us as it's supposed to, and I have no idea how to get back there.

The last time we had sex (a couple of weeks ago) was after a long hiatus, and it was pretty nice too. It was slow, gentle PVI, and she gently stroked my back and sides throughout the whole time (she's usually very passive and doesn't do almost anything). In the end I did have an orgasm, but it was a nice experience all in all. I'm not sure if she had a good time, and I didn't want to ask because I feel having long verbal discussions only makes matters worse.

I guess pretty much everything else I've done can be classified under failures. I touched her in non-sexual ways; tried bonding by talking and doing things she likes (that works, but it never gets to the next step of physical intimacy). Gave her massages, which she likes, but again, that was it, and it never got to anything sexual or overly intimate.

A part of the problem is that she feels really guilty, which only makes matters worse -- who can open up when they're feeling so guilty? And from my end, I'm not sure what to do to really help her get rid of that guilt and just be in the moment with me.

Try not going for orgasm

the next time you have gentle intercourse. It creates subconscious separation sometimes.

Never mind the guilt for now - I find analysis is less helpful than action.

Has your wife read the book? Sometimes trying the formal exercises takes the pressure off of both partners as they each know exactly what's expected of them. So there's no room for wondering if they are keeping up their end.

Keep experimenting. You'll get there. This is a big adjustment for everyone, and everyone's stumbles and breakthroughs are helpful to everyone.

She doesn't want to read it

Hi Marnia,

She hadn't read the book, and says she doesn't want to, either. Feels antagonistic to any attempt to "tell her what to do" etc. She doesn't want to do the formal exercises either; just wants to "flow," basically.

my wife says the same thing

exactly what she says, almost word for word. So I have stopped trying to make her my science project (mostly, lol, there are still times...)

Basically it didn't matter.

I would recommend sneak cuddling. Getting next to her watching TV for an hour a night, cuddling without her being aware that this is what you are doing. I think that this contact, even with clothes on, really helps a LOT to get things going.


Here is my two cents

I can only speak from my personal experience, but I think there are some women who will not respond well to any kind of direct pressure for them to be sexual. This is definitely the case with my wife.

If I went to my wife and told her that I had started watching porn or masturbating because she is not sexual enough that would NOT make her want to be sexual. That would make her feel bad, and those bad feelings might compel her to do something, but it would not be out of desire, it would be out of fear. I would prefer not to use fear as a motivator. I just cannot see how I can lead my wife to the happy and loving intimacy that I want with negative tactics.

I know from experience that my wife not read any book on relationships or sexuality that I could choose to give her. It would not matter who wrote it or how gently the messages were put forward. The book itsef would become lost in the feelings of being judged that would come over her as soon as I handed her the book. She would see that (correctly) as me trying to fix her on an intellectual level.

Just to clarify here, my wife is very loving and she wants our marriage to work as much as I do, however, it is also true that she never, ever responds well in situations where she feels judged. She is very sensitive about relationships. If she feels judged in our marriage it triggers all kinds of insecurity in her. She deals with that surge in insecurity by lashing out at the percieved cause of it ... me. is that logical? No. But it is what it is. She is ruled much more by her feelings than she is by logic.

Luckily, I have a much more pleasant and effective option for how to engage my wife on such things. She is extremely sensitive to the energy that I am projecting in our marriage. So, all that I have to do is manage my own energy when I interact with her.

If I am being happy pleasant and affectionnate then it will not be long before she is also being happy, pleasant and afectionnate. On the other hand, if I am being tense and moody then she will be tense and moody too. It took me a long time to figure out just how powerfully she responds to my energy. I could not figure out why an evening could be going very well, both of us laughing and having fun and as soon as I start thinking about sex the whole thing goes down hill fast. The reason is that I got nervous and edgy as soon as I thought about sex because I was anticipating rejection. She felt the change in my energy and locked herself down in response.

So, I would suggest that you stop trying to engage your wife on an intellectual level with this stuff. Stop trying to convince her to do karezza. That road will just lead to more resistance on her part and more frustration on your part.

Instead, try managing your own energy more consciously when you intract with her. Get yourself as relexaed as you can and then give her a spontaneous hug. It will take some practice, but I bet you will find that as you get better at approaching her with positive and loving energy, she will naturaly open up to receive that more fully without any further discussions on the subject.

It worked miracles with my wife. I have learned to sense where her emotional energy is at, and then gently lead her to a better emotional state just by loving her, listening to her, and having a good sense of humor. I engage her on an eneregtic level as opposed to an intellectual level. It works much better in our relationship.

As for karezza ... there is no reason for her to be overtly on board. She implicitly follows my lead in love making so if I am doing karzza then by default, she is doing karezza too. There is nothing to negotiate. Talking about it will just make her insecure about her ability to perform. I just need to go ahead and do it.


I'm so glad I came back to see if I got any more comments. Your insightful input just blew me away. I totally see what you're saying, and I fully agree. I mean, I think a big part of karezza is that it bypasses all of that intellectual stuff, and engages at a more basic level.

What you say about energy is very true, and is the same in our house as well. It's not one-way, though: If she's stressed out, I do tend to get pretty stressed out myself.

I'll post another entry now on the main thing I'm working on at the moment. I have a better wording for the problem, I think.

Thank you, again, for taking the time both to read and provide such heartfelt feedback. Definitely feeling the support.


Just last night I watched a documentary on Netflix called "Asexual". It's really got me thinking a lot. Maybe you'd like to check it out? Maybe your wife is asexual?

My thoughts

I'm no expert in relationships. So this is just my perspective, I could see that if I were in your position I would not handle well at all.

A relationship, and a marriage especially - should be a union between two people that strengthens them. Either one of you may need to work at one point or another to strengthen yourselves, such that the bond between you can either be maintained or improved. It sounds like your wife is unwilling to strengthen herself for either your benefit, or hers.

From my position I can only be so understanding to a point, but I could never - support weakness in my partner, that serves neither of us.

Shutting down is an excellent way to avoid having to face ones own fears and insecurities, something she seems to be doing. My point isn't that she's a horrible person, or that you should seperate. Rather - there really is only so much you can do, she must pick up the burden and be willing to carry it with you.

Yoni massages

I've heard that there are yoni massages for women who want to discover their own sexuality or who made really negative experiences. Yoni massages are often offered by women. Maybe that can help your wife.

coercion is wrong

@ CylusBA

I'm sorry but that woulb be rape! A human being doesnt have got a right to consume a foreign body just for his ownc profits! This is actually exactly the reason why women become asexual because they have got the social pressure to sacrifice their body as a masturbationproduct. Sex in our culture is just a male masturbation it is no wonder that women are trying to save them from sex. Sex is often used against women plus society insults women as sluts etc so women have to bear the whole shame and guilt about sex. Of course it will have got consequences! Thats logic! Not to forget that the female sexuality and ability to receive is more a mental/mind thing than a body thing while the male sexuality is more a body thing. As you said relationships are used to be an union. Compel someone to sacrifice herself for just being a masturbationproduct has nothing to do with unifying it is actually segregating. And this segregation sex makes women asexual, it makes women more and more less receptive it even leads to a numb and indurated womb. Men are not profiting either (making profit while looting someone is an ilusion). The blockade of the womb will become stronger and that leads to a higher scarcity of the female energy which doesnt rise up when the woman is getting used anyway.

I fail to see how I suggested

I fail to see how I suggested any type of coercion. The gentleman, I thought, was blaming himself too much as well as carrying too much of the burden of his wife's insecurities. Insecurities that she is unwilling to face apparently. In my round-about way I was suggesting that her lack of concern for their relationship is the larger issue that mere sex.

It’s More Than Just Sex

CylusBA is right; the problem is more than simply sex. Obviously from the little that we know about the situation it is impossible to diagnose Kioavito’s wife. My guess is that she doesn’t even understand why she reacts the way she does. Relationships are hard enough when sex is good, but when sex is bad that is really tough on the relationship. Kioavito beating himself up over his wife’s issues does neither of them any good; it just makes him an enabler her problem. Marnia’s comment is spot on that, “Sometimes partners prefer to let sleeping dogs lie rather than open up to the next level.” Unfortunately when you stick your head in the sand you usually get kicked in the ass. She or they need to see a professional, preferably medical and psychological; there is no reason to live in the pain that this is clearly causing both of them.

As for Lilith’s comments that CylusBA’s post, and by extension now I guess mine, in anyway suggested rape is absolutely insane. Most of Lilith’s comments in fact seem totally “anti-male”. I think we can all agree that most of the men on this site are pretty “pro-female”. In fact most people on this site are pretty much “pro-people” regardless of gender.

different approach

After giving in to your wife's lack of interest for a while, nature reminds you of your unmet needs, and you are getting frustrated. In more detail, the sensations in the groin produce some thoughts, of the category of being shortchanged. These thoughts then produce the emotions of frustration. Evolved human beings have figured out that they can change the thoughts in their mind, which are created as a reaction of sensory input to the body. So instead of thinking that you are missing out on something, be grateful for having a women in your life. Snuggle up to this women, warm her cold feet with your warm feet, lay one hand onto her opposite cheek, and go inward. Spread the energy concentrated in your groin out into your body, send it out with your feet and hand. Think about all the good stuff she brings into your life (that's why she is still here with you), and think about how much more you will get. Enjoying this closeness is what Karezza is about. Bathe in this experience. Enjoy everything - need nothing. You are irresistible; soon she will be ready to join you and wants to be touched and caressed in other parts of her body...
(Inspired by the works of N.D.Walsch)

Read this books


I understand your frustration. Many people or couples sometimes faild because when they were single they didnt prepare their bodies and minds in the science of transmuattion of the sexual energies.
When people jump in to a relationship to practice the science of sexual alquemy without any prior preparation while they were single, it will be much harder to have Success on these practices., it would be much easier if you would practice first by yourself first before marriage. Although Since you already married you should practice solo transmutation of the sexual energies and mix with karezza practices with your partner. There are a few great books that will help you prepare yourself before practice sexual alquimy(karezza) with a partner but also if you already have one will help you to have more sucesss on these practices.

The multi-orgasmic man by Matak Chia. The title of this book might make you think that by multi -orgasmic man it means having multi physical orgasms , how we know them today but in fact what it really means, is the mutil -orgasmic feeling without the need of the physical ejaculation. This book will prepare you physiically, mentally and spiritually to be ready for the science of sexual alchemy and also will help to you learn more about the female anatomy and understand what women really want or need sexually. This book will led yourself and your partner in how to become like oneness once you are in intimacy.

The perfect matrimony by Samael Aun Weor (, it is a must for married couples, here you will learn the benefits of sexual transmutation not just physically but spiritually . On this book you will get anything to need to know to have a perfect matrimony by using the sexual energy correctly.

Don't discourage yourself practice makes perfect


Thanks for sharing your favorite resources

Some people find SAW's material at bit too guilt-producing (although I've been told that in his native Spanish his work doesn't read that way at all).

Chia was my introduction to this other approach to sex: However, I don't think he has all the answers. He left his wife and co-author (of one of his books) for a young village girl in Thailand. Mosking

I can relate

I can totally relate to your frustration--that;s been a challenge for me too. And when I get frustrated I have reached out for porn. It's like this feeling of "everything would be just perfect if only she would..."
Which is thinking I know what is best, and control.
I like what some of the guys here are saying about "feminine lockdown" when we subtly or not so subtly try to get them to do what we want; even though we have some good scientific/wisdom literature and personal expereince to back it up.

I think Emerson hits the nail on the head when he suggests just casually cuddling with the wives when they are watching tv or whatever. Finally, for me, I've finally got my spouse to agree to shedule three nights of cuddling a week. I ended up masturbating too--I didn't tell her, but I let her know I was feeling some disconnect in our relationship. It helped us have a good discussion.

I think I do have some pretty deep-seated co-dependency issues. I've experienced lots of healing, but there is a lot of emotional anxiety when I feel things are slipping away from my control, or that I picked the wrong partner or something.

Oh yeah, masturbation never good for me. I avoid it as much as I can (like you). The chaser effect is deadly!