Will Karezza Keep His Eyes From Wandering?

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What I'm wondering is that if avoiding sexual satiation will keep a man's eyes focused on his partner instead of all of the other women in the world that he seems to have been taught to ogle throughout his life? Those men out there who've been practicing Karezza, do you find this is your experience? Or has the way you see women not changed? Thanks in advance.

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I am not in a relationship,

I am not in a relationship, and I have never practiced karezza-style sex, but I think you would have better chances of having a faithful relationship, at any rate, if it were with a principled man who saved his seed more than the average male. That being said, I think you should also ask yourself how and by whom men have been "taught to ogle" women, as you seem to believe we are. Who's to blame? Men for being animals? Women for being temptresses? Porn?

Just saying.

Social conditioning...

is what I mean by men being taught to ogle women. Sexual interest in all attractive women is usually seen as a barometer for masculinity in Western culture. This is not so much a personal question pertaining to my own relationship - but more about if and how these social issues can be changed by Kareeza.

I agree...

...but I think most men and women are after one thing, and that is to "get off" by having an orgasm. Whenever I hear sex discussed on shows like The Dr. Oz Show, having an orgasm is almost always assumed and accepted to be the goal of it. I know that humanity would benefit from non-orgasm-driven sex, but so too would it from global vegetarianism; neither one is going to happen, unfortunately. Sad but true.

I guess you lead by example, and even if no one else follows, you've done your part.

Hmmm

I don't think a man or woman would be properly alive if they didn't notice the beauty in one another (whether in a committed relationship or not).

Looking is one thing and acting upon it is another...just be confident in yourself! I'm a self-admitted flirt (I flirt with *everyone*) and I guess I just don't see the harm in it~~I know good and well my lover appreciates a woman's beauty and I don't expect him to put blinders on. If he didn't think other women were beautiful he probably wouldn't think I am, either (and I have never felt so beautiful than when I am with him).

Your post makes me feel you want to control a person and I don't think karezza has that kind of power over a man. What it does is help you deepen the love between you so that perhaps you would feel more trust and more confidence in your relationship.

It seems to me...

that every time a woman feels "less than" because her partner has a wandering eye, we are told to just "be confident" and "stop being insecure". However, that insecurity is a byproduct of male culture that basically says all women must be observed and measured for attractiveness. Ask any average guy what he does with the images he observes of other women and I think you'll see that this is different from just thinking "oh, isn't she pretty".

My comment

My comment to "be confident" applies to men or women! I see nothing that is wrong with that advice~~it's all you can do in the end, isn't it? If someone find someone else more attractive than you and decides to go with that person, what can you do? It's not your decision to make. Getting stuck in the mire of blame and *why* people do what they do isn't going to make you feel any better, probably worse!

If you believe (as I do) that everything happens for a reason then perhaps it's a good thing your mate moved on to someone else...who knows? I just don't like to see people get stuck in negative thinking about those of the opposite sex (i.e., blaming).

I see what you're saying...

and I'm really not into the blame thing either. What I'm talking about is more acknowledging the reasons why we do things and realizing there are other ways that are less likely to cause suffering in others and in ourselves. Things that can be learned can be unlearned. And I believe it is important for men AND women to unlearn most of their gender training. It's obviously not getting us anywhere except towards more unhappiness and more media driven consumerism. To think our habits or compulsions are fixed - no matter who they hurt - is counterproductive to greater awareness of human beings as a species.

it's all you can do in the end

[quote=Rachel]My comment to "be confident" applies to men or women! I see nothing that is wrong with that advice~~it's all you can do in the end, isn't it? [/quote]

Rare to see such wisdom in a a self-admitted flirt.

Lol!

I will flirt with anyone~~be it someone's grandma or the nice young man in the produce section at my co-op! I think it comes from being very happy with myself inside and wanting to share that happiness with others (and make them feel as good as I do). Smile

I don't think it's about control...

I think it's about the desire for exclusive erotic attention from a partner. Come on, we'd all like to think we're so amazing and wonderful, that our partner is no longer even interested in sexualizing another woman - which is completely different than just observing someone's beauty.

I guess it's up to you

Sure, that's a lovely fantasy, but in reality, it just doesn't happen (ever, lol!). And in my humble opinion, it's healthier to realize that you *aren't* always going to be the only thing on earth a man is going to look at...it doesn't mean anything, it's a natural thing to do. Women are beautiful! Don't *you* look at and notice beautiful women? Or perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "ogling" or "sexualizing"~~are you talking about porn? Or being with a man who is rude in public as far as the way he behaves? That is something different, I feel.

But if you're talking about hoping karezza will make a man develop tunnel vision, I don't think that's going to happen; the only thing that can be changed is how you react to it. If you're with someone whom you feel is being disrespectful in some way (his momma didn't raise him right!) then it's your option to not see that person anymore. Or if it's not blatant disregard, but just something that bothers you, then the best thing to do is to get it out right then and talk to them about it (not blaming, just expressing how it affects you emotionally). Don't repress it or it will turn into something toxic inside you.

I just read this quote last night and I like what it says:

"We are only our own masters and nobody should pretend to be a master over somebody else. When freedom is left intact, love grows infinitely." ~Osho

Men gather images of women in their minds...

They may imagine having sex with these women of even go so far as to masturbate to them. Of course if the man is following Karezza, he is no longer masturbating to orgasm, so that's not a big issue. However, my question is would he still continue to chase the dopamine highs of gathering images of novel partners (where his social conditioning exploits his mammalian brain) if practicing Karezza? I am not interesting in controlling another - only trying to understand how best to strengthen the pair bond for both men and women.

I see

I think what you are saying now is something entirely different than a man looking at and appreciating another woman~~and yes, if a man is practicing karezza in such a way that he is "mindful" (only concentrating on his body in the present moment), then no, he would not be pulling up stored images of other women while making love. But that is what happens in conventional sex, mainly because it becomes boring quite quickly!

As far as strengthening your pair bond, yes! It does that for sure! And if you are engaging frequently, I doubt he would have much time or energy to linger over thoughts of someone else in his spare time.

But noticing another beautiful woman, I think that's going to happen no matter what.

Of course...

Noticing is different. I can notice an attractive man without feeling the need to "possess" him in some way through fantasy. This does not seem to be the case with most men because they are taught that not wanting all women somehow questions their sexuality and masculinity. Men with lower self esteem especially seem to do this. And they think it's a normal "guy thing". Those are typically the men who also watch porn, etc. So, noticing beauty is normal and innocent. Sexualizing with the intent to "possess" through fantasy is another.

Thanks for the great conversation Rachel. I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I love this community already. :D

You, too!

I'm glad you're here and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

I hope you start a blog so you can share your journey with us~~

(and hopefully, one of the karezza men will chime in here as to your question!)

Hi LB

I dont consider myself a karezza man just yet, (ive swamped the poor lass with so many new ideas shes still catching up!) but already i find myself looking at her body with different eyes. Focusing on body parts now seems less relevant when i can see the whole woman positively a-glow. And when im out and about and see these youngsters with bare midriffs and what not, im more inclined to shrug than anything. Thats because of what CPA did to me lol. Having half an inkling of the brain soup that's behind our ordinary everyday motivations, tends to mean i dont see anything quite the same!. For me it kind of neutralises things. My beloved and i both laughed when marnia explains whats going when we sniff each others necks.

Welcome LB.

Thank you...

for your thoughtful reply. I admit I have come to these ideas through a personal paradigm shift that I am still trying to understand. All of your thoughts and advice are much appreciated. Best of luck with your partner and your experiments with Karezza.

Will Karezza Keep His Eyes From Wandering?

[quote=LB]What I'm wondering is that if avoiding sexual satiation will keep a man's eyes focused on his partner instead of all of the other women in the world that he seems to have been taught to ogle throughout his life? Those men out there who've been practicing Karezza, do you find this is your experience? Or has the way you see women not changed? Thanks in advance.[/quote]

[quote=Rachel] ... hopefully, one of the karezza men will chime in here.[/quote]

Well, I’m a lot different than most karezza men, but I will chime in anyway. First of all, I would like to say that, for me, karezza is not about “avoiding sexual satiation,” but rather about not being driven by the desire for sexual satiation – a subtle but important difference. Since beginning to practice karezza principles in my daily life, I would say that my enjoyment of feminine beauty in other women has not diminished one bit. If anything, I think it is even stronger. And I believe that is a least partially due to me feeling like I am more attractive to other women (anyone who has read my blog might get a chuckle from such a statement.) I now have more female friends than ever before in my life, and those friendships are much deeper. All without violating the boundaries of my marriage.

But, as you say, “noticing beauty is normal and innocent. Sexualizing with the intent to ‘possess’ through fantasy is another.” Has there been a change in my motivation to possess through fantasy? I would say yes. Before karezza, our relationship was dull, boring, stale, etc. I grasped at every image within my reach for stimulation to help me take care of business. Photos, videos, internet, gentlemen’s clubs, or attractive women in the mall. Now, I can’t say I’m 100% pure, but certainly have moved in that direction. Is this due to bonding with my wife including the accompanying dose of oxytocin, or is it because I now recognize the utter futility of seeking satisfaction using those means? Yes. And, yes. And also because of the feminine energy I enjoy from many lovely goddesses that allows me to achieve balance in my life.

Welcome to this community. It is a good place. May you benefit as much as I have.

Jesse

Yes, men often

do report a natural shift toward contentment with a partner and a decrease in the constant search for sexual novelty via porn, fantasy, whatever. I think you would find this post interesting: http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/guys-who-gave-porn-sex-and-romance Read comments too. And this earlier one: Porn and Perception: Is Your Limbic Brain Distorting Your Vision?

Also browse around in "Karezza Korner." Start here: http://www.reuniting.info/node/7220

It's my belief that contented monogamy is only possible when we're feeling whole inside. This means making sure we engage in daily bonding behaviors and, ideally, have sex regularly karezza-style, so the neurochemical aftermath doesn't derail our perception and leave us dissatisfied and projecting our ripples onto our loved ones.

Marnia!

Thank you for your reply and suggested links. I am so grateful to your for the work you do and for Cupid's Poison Arrow. I have been devouring the e-reader version and awaiting my hard copy in the mail. Can't wait to put everything into practice.

Hubby and I have always had an oxytocin filled relationship, but tension began when I realized he had a secret masturbation habit that he thought was perfectly "normal" male behavior. It seemed to make him less interested in me physically, I began to feel insecure, and it's taken a small toll on me - probably him as well.

So your work is a godsend to us and we are both very excited to experience the effects of bonding-sex.

Thank you again!

Another male perspective

I had a chance to ask my lover about your questions~~

When I asked him if he thought karezza made him less likely to think about having sex with anything that walks (lol) he said, "I don't know if it's karezza, or my age, or you...but I definitely don't have those kinds of thoughts anymore." (he's 52) He does look at women (*all* women and all people~~both of us are people-observers in general and that will never change).

We talked further about it and we both think that what can happen with karezza is a man finally becomes fulfilled because he is able to give all his energy (yang) to a woman (which doesn't happen to 99.9999% of men in this world!). He says before we met and started all this, yes, he did have sexual thoughts about women when he would see them on the street, etc. But he doesn't think this is anything that men are taught~~he says that men are no different than animals in that it's just their nature to seek out mates to impregnate/be with/love. He doesn't think it has anything to do with culture or the media~~it's just the way men (of any culture) are. (and women, too! women of child-bearing age are usually seeking out the "best" mate with which to raise their children)

As far as your hubby, I think if the two of you can start to engage in mindful intercourse (with frequent occurrence and lots of daily touching and kissing), I would bet his obsession with masturbation would start to fall away. I hope you get to read some of the books by Diana Richardson and her husband, too. I think so many men and women are just deprived of physical engagement that truly balances them~~I look at it more from the energy exchange than the neurochemical exchange, but when a man and a woman can cycle their yin and yang energies between them it helps them become whole and not needy.

I hope you give it a try!

Thank you Rachel

for getting another perspective. We may have to agree to disagree about social conditioning though. :D

Male behavior varies from man to man and from culture to culture. His environment certainly plays a role, as does the way he was raised, the men in his life during childhood, etc. As is discussed all over this site, the brain is plastic and susceptible to compulsions that may otherwise seem normal if we aren't aware. An otherwise "normal" man can be trained to get an arousal response from a pair of shoes or a big green balloon. Therefore, looking at a woman and getting aroused may also be a trained response. Some cultures in Europe don't even feel nudity denotes sex. Here: naked girl = sex. So, these things are extremely mutable.

And hubby has no obsession. The habit (and it was just that) is over. Some men think of those things as though it's maintenance - like brushing their teeth. Habits (especially those developed from adolescence) can be hard to get rid of if you see no reason to get rid of them. Now he has a reason and has no desire for it any longer. However, I am still feeling the after effects. Also, I never said no. Our sex has always been extremely loving and bonding. He could've had all the sex in the world but he believed (through his social conditioning) that a man's sexuality is a burden on women and that he was supposed to take care of that excess energy himself.

Thanks again for all of the info!

I think~

I think all the mutations for men can be traced back to sexual repression in some form~~but I think that is something different than the desire to be with a woman which *I* think is normal and natural for men of all cultures.

Even though in some countries nudity is natural, I don't think that lessens the desire for men to want to have sex with a woman...? (anyone here that confirm or deny this?)

But we'll just agree to disagree on that one!

I'm glad to hear your hubby is willing to do this with you and if you can get a copy of the Tantric Feelings and Emotions book by Diana Richardson, it might help *you* learn how to start healing yourself from what has gone on in the past. It has helped me immensely!

Enjoy

Bonding behaviors are very gentle medicine. They create a safe place of safety and trust where any "brain worms" can dissolve.

When you feel resentful consider the possibility that if you had been a man this lifetime, you might have innocently made the same decision he did. Everyone's entitled to mess up. I bet he has forgiven you for a few things over the years. He sounds like a gem. Forgive him and love him. His (ahd your) perception will be shifting for a while, so just let things unfold and trust the process.

I practice karezza

And engage every day n bonding and intercourse most days and I still look at other beautiful women. Can't help it. Some are stunning and I try not to be obvious about it.

Well I think I may have to be a nun then...

I can't accept that there is no way to keep a man focused and in love with one woman. Sorry... maybe it's a product of "passion cycle" depression or something, but I have been feeling awful about all of this for so long. I don't really know what else to do. Thanks to all.

not sure I get what you are saying

just because a man looks at other women doesn't mean he can't be 100% faithful to you forever and focused on you forever. I don't have experience with forever but I do have experience with Karezza for six months.

I look at beautiful women and really notice them, especially youthful beautiful women who are "my type." But that's it. I don't fantasize like I used to about having sex with them. I feel attracted to them but that's it.

My feelings for my wife and life partner are stronger all the time. I have never had such strong feelings for my wife (and I have always loved her). It is beyond anything I would have dreamed possible, these feelings, and from what I gather they will continue.

Looking at other women has nothing to do with how I feel for my partner.

So here's the thing...

I thought I did everything right. Never nagged, always had compassion, supporting him constantly, never said no to sex, etc. He never even really annoyed me and no man ever compared to him in my eyes. But it seems like no matter how great I am it's still not great enough. And if I have sex with him all the time it will just make him tired of me - according to the habituation effect. Well that's just great. So, now the only choice is to have karezza sex and avoid passion that might lead to orgasm. Will it even matter? I can walk across the room naked and he barely notices. New woman? Well, that's different. I feel pretty hopeless actually. Tried some karezza last night and after a while he just said he was tired. I felt a shift, but not sure about him. Ugh. If this is a passion hangover, I'm never going to orgasm again.

Please

Please read one of Diana Richardson's books right away...karezza is not "sex without passion"~~in fact, it's the most passionate sex I've ever experienced. It never gets boring. It's different every single time. Your husband will LOVE it.

It's good to start with the scientific explanations for what happens with conventional sex, but there is much more to it than that~~if you and your husband are willing to take it to that place.

A woman can have the passionate lovemaking she's always dreamed about (my life feels like a scene from a movie sometimes...cue the music, lol!)~~with no worries about her man ever becoming bored. BELIEVE ME.

You will start to feel balanced and beautiful and see beauty all around you and in each other (and you won't feel threatened by other women taking your place). Life takes on a pleasant buzz and you will be so in love with each other. And it's less about avoiding orgasm and more about not trying for anything. (orgasms do happen and they are no big deal when you aren't focused on having one~~they are more beautiful than ever, actually)

But it is a personal inner journey that has to take place~~it's so worth it. Please trust me on this! Don't give up~~you have so much to learn and you've barely gotten started.

yep, here's a guy who completely agrees!

There is passion as in "escalate arousal until you come" which is what conventional sex is about...and there is passion as in "how much I love you, let me feel it and show you as I feel it" and this passion which I feel for my lover never ends and can only get deeper.

It NEVER gets boring. It is just fabulous and that is a ridiculous understatement.

So here's a guy that agrees.

As Rachel says, there is a pleasant buzz around the rest of life...YES!! That is a great way to put it. I can think of this morning and rather than think of a sex act, I think of my feelings for my honey, my love and how it felt sharing it, and those warm feelings just don't end throughout the day and night.

And as Rachel says, get the book. Get all of them. They all have gems in them.

 

a couple of observations

I hope you will start blogging about your experiences rather than leave it in this thread. It is very helpful if you are serious about this, to look back at prior posts and comments and easier to do so if it's organized that way.

You might want to grasp the reality: it's *you* that you can work on, not *him* and there is considerable question working on yourself is even possible but I won't go there LOL.

You are the one who thinks this is a problem and you are the only one who can do anything about it.

I came to this place of Karezza because I was very unhappy with our sex life and wanted a change. I at first blamed my partner in a way. Not blamed exactly, but placed responsibility on her. She had little sex drive, etc. etc.

Then I realized it was me. It always was me. And that's when things got really great. Not at first.

We had 3 or 4 months when things were a bit rocky. Much better in my mind than any time before, but rocky in their own way.

And still every day is a growth experience and different and we both are learning a lot.

So, luckily, you can start with yourself for sure.

That's what I did. I just stopped having orgasms. I told my partner what I was doing but didn't ask. Maybe that wasn't so nice of me but she has her orgasms if she wants to and that's her business. My orgasms are my business. That's how I look at it in a way. I told her this, and why, and we started daily bonding behaviors of an hour or more and we started having intercourse almost every day.

Not at first, but we got there. You can read about it in my blog if you want.

It takes time, sometimes months, probably 6 to 12 months. I've really got into this, but my partner still really doesn't get it in full really and it's been six months.

But it's been so great I can't describe to you how wonderful it's been. I hope you will blog about this and tell us about your journey. Just expect it to take time and be patient and focus on yourself and your feelings, not on your guy.

 

 

 

!!!

I'm learning to listen to emerson!

'You might want to grasp the reality: it's *you* that you can work on, not *him* '

'You are the one who thinks this is a problem and you are the only one who can do anything about it.'

'I came to this place of Karezza because I was very unhappy with our sex life and wanted a change. I at first blamed my partner in a way. Not blamed exactly, but placed responsibility on her. She had little sex drive, etc. etc.'

'Then I realized it was me. It always was me. '

I've discovered only this week the incredible wonderful truth of what he's saying here.

If you wish to blog

click on "Members blogs" in the lefthand column, and "My blog" will appear.

As long as you keep comparing yourself to other women (2-D women as well), you will remain trapped. Porn videos are not "other women." Porn use is only a need for dopamine, just as with any other "fix." The dopamine just happens to come from a parade of novel sexual cues, which can be of anything. If your partner was still only looking at women...you're lucky. Many guys escalate to really scary stuff that no longer seems related to sex much at all.

Many humans, not just men, have fallen for the myth that more sexual arousal from superstimuli (endless pics-at-a-click, super-human sex toys, etc.) will equal more satisfaction. It seems to work that way...in the short term. But in the long run, we just numb ourselves to normal pleasure and need even more stimulation.

Porn isn't really about sexual attraction. It's about novelty-on-demand. If you can reframe your husband's experience this way, I think you can allow your resentment to dissolve. If you can't, you're going to make both of your miserable, I fear. You were never competing with "porn women." Ever. He was simply returning to the well of sexual stimuli for another hit without your presence.

The goal now is to become as receptive to him as possible, and help him keep his orgasms to a minimum (not by demand, but by not pushing him over the edge during your lovemaking). With daily bonding behaviors as well, you can help your lovemaking to be deeply satisfying. That will slake his thirst (and yours) without his missing the "well of porn" much at all...after a while.

Have you ever been hooked on something? Sugary treats? Something else? When you stop, there's a longing...a gap. The things that actually fill the gap are things that balance the brain: meditation, exercise, inspiring reading, creativity, socializing, deep connection (bonding behaviors), yoga, time in nature, etc. Trouble is...at first those things will seem a bit dull, because of the way the brain works. Stick with them, however, because on the other side of this "grayness" lies deeper satisfaction.

Simmering with resentment will just keep you from the deep connection that will fill the gap.

If you need to release your emotions, punch pillows when he's not around or do some kind of intense physical exercise where you can push yourself hard. That helps to release the pent-up emotions. 

Good luck. I know it's hard. But please let go of the way you are framing your problem. It's not serving you. You didn't "compete and come up short." There was never a competition. Only a mindless pursuit of dopamine.

Porn?

Did I miss something? I assumed when she mentioned her husband having a "wandering eye" and "ogling" she was referring to real live women? (am I the only one who thought this?) I guess that changes the conversation significantly if it's true.

Mostly real women...

I found out about a twice a month or so porn habit eventually as well. Though it seemed to be escalating a little and the things he looked at were fairly vanilla, so no worries on the getting into really "out there" stuff. Mostly there was fantasy of real women - though what's the difference really? According to Your Brain on Porn, fantasizing porn-like scenarios is pretty much the same as watching it. Though I'm glad it's over now because it could've gotten out of hand.

In a previous relationship, I also looked at porn on occasion. I didn't know then how it could've affected me and really didn't see anything wrong with it. In fact, I would've advocated all sorts of novel sexual ideas at one point - having really never had a repressed bone in my body about it. Having a real relationship with lots of love made me see things differently. In that previous relationship, I often felt like an object that couldn't be touched unless I was going to "give up the goods". Thankfully, my husband and I have always had a very loving sex life full of genuine affection. And we are both now staunchly against porn after researching together.

I think LB got it

Porn and sexual fantasy are both searches for dopamine hits, not "competition" in the sense she is framing them.

It's been amazing to watch how many guys notice the spontaneous leering and fantasizing fade away with the porn...when their primary relationships are solid and the porn drops out. It can take a bit of time though.

Okay, I'm going to try blogging...

And I will continue to work through these things there. Marnia, Rachel, and all - thank you for your compassionate responses. It is very meaningful to me to have people to talk about these things with. My friends don't really understand. Most of them have looked at me crosseyed and said things like "he's a guy. that's what they do." like that's some sort of excuse. Meanwhile, none of them are happy in their relationships and generally call their husbands annoying idiots at every opportunity. They also fill the void with material things. I've been there and I knew from day one I didn't want that stereotypical, contentious "modern" relationship ever again. My husband is an amazing human and I am very grateful for him. I just don't want either of us to fall into any traps that will turn us away from each other in the long run. Hopefully, we're on the right track. Thank you all again. I am looking forward to this new leg of my journey.

Do Guys Still Look? Do Dogs Still Bark?

Haven’t been on the site in a couple days and thought I would take a quick study break and take a look. Wow, interesting thread. Here is your answer from a college student, male, in a fully committed monogamous relationship. We are trying Karezza as much as our life allows right now.

I don’t think Karezza is going to affect a guy’s interest in looking at women. All men look, some men look more than others; mostly I think some of us are better at not getting caught. Also the amount guys look is situational; right now it is the end of the school year and I am sort of stressed. I am not doing much looking right now; my mind is on other stuff.

When life is less hectic, my girlfriend is always busting me for looking at some chick. When we were first together it bothered her more than it does now. She is more confident in our relationship now, some disagreed with the “confidence” thing but it matters. Our university has a lot of very hot women, my girlfriend included. She sort of jokes about my checking out other girls now; she’ll clear her throat, give me an annoyed sort of smile and shake her head, sometimes she’ll even say “Really, you think SHE’S hot?”

She knows I love her and that even though I look it goes no further. We both have abundant chances to cheat and we don’t. We came to college as a couple, broke up, slept around, and got back together. Our experience has taught us what we have and who we want to be with in life; oddly enough sleeping with other people helped bond us together.

Men are not the only ones who look. My girlfriend and her friends make comments about guys all the time, some of those comments are pretty explicit. I notice girls checking me out; they do it even when I am with my girlfriend.

Blaming this as a male trait or societal conditioning just doesn’t hold water with me. I think it is just a normal human trait of attraction. I am with Rachel and Emerson on this, its fun, its normal. Maybe the three of us will start the “Horn-Dog Karezza Flirting Club”.

Back to finish my lab report!

I don't look...

and never have since meeting my husband. I don't bother looking because it is fruitless. I'd rather look at him any day of the week than some random stranger. Are you honestly telling me that I can never have the same from him? Really? It's just a dopamine rush to look at all, so why do it? It doesn't provide real happiness or any intimacy. So, what's the point of looking around when all you need or want is right in front of you.

This is something individuals

have to work out for themselves. Just make it as easy as possible for him to stay in balance.

Would you also have him control his eating so that he never eats any "empty" calories? Are you sure the benefits of such a logical approach would outweigh the possible loss of his joie de vivre?

Wouldn't it be better to see what happens naturally as a result of greater balance? That way any change would come from inside him, rather than be externally imposed to try to please you. (The latter doesn't work very well, and usually just causes resentment and defensiveness.)

I agree and do not want to control him...

The stuff I posted above is my way of expressing how I feel. Basically, I do not understand why my love couldn't eclipse the desire to look at another - the way his love has done for me. I make a conscious choice to see only him and I have from the beginning. I can not believe this is not also possible for him simply because he is male and I am female. Both sexes share similar patterns of promiscuity, not just men. So how is it that I can keep my eyes to myself - or simply notice an attractive man without arousal - and most men can't? Could this not be some cultural phenomenon? Could this not be that men are taught that it's what they are *supposed* to do? And how many women are actually bitter about this? How many relationships could've avoided such bitterness if both parties were taught to expect something else than "sexual obsession" as an inherent trait of masculinity?

Once again,

you can keep your eyes to yourself because you have not been making a habit of doing otherwise. It's really that simple. Sounds like he's willing to change and that you are willing to let him change.

When you get resentful, remember that it could have been your bad habit that caused trouble. Would you want to be forgiven?

You ask why men are more "that way." The evolutionary explanation is that females generally had less trouble finding mates...because they have the eggs. So males have to be more proactive in the mating department or run a greater risk of getting shut out of the gene pool. So part of their machinery keeps them more on the prowl. Females can just sit around with their fertile eggs and wait for the action. Dirol

LB

What good is it doing you to keep obsessing over this? Why does it matter what any other man or woman does? Why does it matter that your husband isn't exactly like you?

One of the things I hope you will learn through karezza is that *nobody* else is responsible for your bliss except you. Even when (and especially when) it comes to sex. Your husband is not responsible for your happiness nor is anyone else. You create it within yourself with the thoughts and feelings you have. You can have beautiful thoughts or you can have thoughts that make you angry.

If there are bitter women in the world, then what a shame and what a waste of energy. If people could concentrate on doing things that make them happy rather than trying to change others (thinking those others hold the key to *their* happiness) what a joyful earth it would be.

The next time you start thinking about all this, try turning on some music, plug in your iPod, whatever, and just dance around and sing. Or go punch something. Just do something to release the negative energy.

It's not helping you and it's not helping your husband.

Thats our Rachel.

Firm but frank. Of what she is saying i am quite convinced, but i can honestly say that i only figured this out in the most recent 0.0409% of my life. Be gentle on yourself... patience LB. We all arrive at this material from some particular 'thing' and this was to be yours. Start from the beginning of the book, journal what you discover along the way, and everything will click into place

:)

I hope

LB, I hope my words aren't taken as being mean-spirited~~I just really want you to get past this "why can't he love me the way I love him" hump and move onto the next step!

So much good stuff to come, but you have to let go of the negative space in order for it to come in.

Smile

I am unsure why

it is assumed I am bitter or obsessed. What I am saying is that another's feelings should be taken into consideration when perusing fruitless and selfish things - especially when in a partnership. Making excuses or turning a blind eye will not bring a couple closer together. Honestly and a willingness to work together will.

I am not bitter or obsessed. I love my husband and believe he is amazing and truly loves me. However, excuses should not be made for the misery in the world perpetuated by the sexes. If we can't get along as man and woman, what hope have we for loftier goals like world peace?

While I understand this and used to believe it...

... in a true love relationship I do not believe we are independent of one another in this way. We can not "make love" as intended here on earth alone.

"Even when (and especially when) it comes to sex. Your husband is not responsible for your happiness nor is anyone else."

But then, I am a big fan of Barry Long.

See versus seek

You are saying he shouldn't see other women? I can see you worrying about seeking, but to not see them if they cross his path? How would that work? And if you want him blind, will he still be able to see you? Consider any long-term implications of what you might be asking him to do. Maybe this isn't who he is. We're all different.

You have the right to have him care about your feelings and take actions of his own initiative. It often doesn't work well when it goes beyond that and your feelings start to dictate his behavior.What has he said and done when you've expressed your feelings about these matters?

Misery or not, it's largely your choice how to react. Some women love men who admire other women and yet choose to be with them. Are you looking for certainty and exclusivity? To some extent there is none. Perhaps the best you can hope for is certainty and exclusivity in the moment. When he's looking at you, is he thinking of only you? If so, what about that isn't enough? What more can he do?

How do you know what he's thinking when he sees another woman? Most men don't have one-track sexualizing minds. Human creatures, male or female, can be fascinating for many reasons, few of which are sexual.

gender politics

Hi LB. Thanks so much for sharing your dilema and your pain. I've also struggled with what you describe. It depends on which way it's viewed, how it's percieved I guess. If we're looking only at porn and addiction, then it's about dopamine. If we look at how women and men experience the world, how we are socialised, how our culture shapes us, then I agree with you it's relevant to question. I also agree the way our genders are expressed can cause pain and suffering. We are ultimately more than brain chemicals. I believe the way our culture shaped us is invible to most people, they simply take it for granted that men are a certain way and woman another. Intersting when other cultures have gender expressions different to our western ones. Anyway, I've found this most helpful , thankyou.

porn politics, pain and the dialectic of truth

Hi again LB. Once again thanks for your topic and posts. I thought about this lots, as it so related to my pain, with seeing my partner scan women and the justification I've heard about how males express their sexuality.

I discovered a female friend who uses porn, who see nothing wrong with it, who reports she does exactly the same thing. She ogles men, especially from her car! She puts it down to extra testosterone, but has never measured it. It's been helpful to discuss it with my friend up to a point. As I said, she normalises her behaviour, even sees it as healthy. She was rasied in a home where pornography was normalised too, and feels grateful for that. it's been tough for me, I got very triggered hearing about her porn use, trying to fit it into our friendship.

Something I find helpful is to think of this. This website has lots of great information. It helps people recovering from porn addiction and people who want to try Karezza for whatever reason. It doesn't set out to support the partners of porn users. This means we can get hurt here, and I do.

I don't buy the statements that a sexual /partner relationship is 'just' dopamine or oll any hormone or chemical. So I need to find support elsewhere to get my needs met. This is hard as porn is a silent epidemic. I've tried 3 times to raise the topic in real life, in an effort to get support, twice I was patholigised for being with a person who has used porn and the other turned up my friend's porn use! So i'm searching for where to go to get support, comfort, understanding and validation for my part of the experience. Apparently it's normal to be traumatized by a partner's porn use. I've found the statement below helpful to disentangle myself from who is right, who is wrong.
· There is always more than one-way to see a situation, and more than one way to solve a problem.
· All people have unique qualities and different points of view.
· It is important not to see the world in “black–and-white,” “all-or-nothing” ways.
· Two things that seem like (or are) opposites can both be true.
· Change is the only constant.
· Meaning and truth evolve over time.
· Change is transactional.

I especially like the reminder that opposites can be true. In this case 'truth' is that ' it's' an addiction with brain chemicals and hormones, it's a behviour enabled by new technology, it's an expression of sexuality. It's also dependent on people who make the films, it throws up questions of how males and females are, and what they feel entitled to do, it throws into relief that we can't discuss it, a conspiracy of silence exists. It allows my feelings of hurt, anxiety, anger, fear and shame to be. They are real and pushing them away doesn't heal them.

it reminds me it's Ok to question how sexuality is expressed by women, by men, in fact I find it healthy to question. I've joined some groups exposing how theporn industry harms the people who make it . I've wtached a real film of a woman being traumtised while making porn, being physically hurt. I've discovered the enormous problem of underage sex workers and of human traficking, which is bad in the USA- including trafficking of US girls and women, not just 'foreigners'. I've engaged in debate online with 'pro sex 'feminsits and dared to disagree! It's really helped me to get a sense of where this fits in our lives and our culture. I'm learning more about my own sexuality.

Thanks again for your honesty. it's helped me a lo and it gives an opportunity, all too rare to share my own experience. I hope you continue to question gender roles and sexuality and that you also find some peace in your questioning, some healing for you own pain. . : )

There are some

good options for getting support if you're the partner of a porn addict. I keep this list over on YBOP because I'm hoping to keep the karezza topic the main focus here, but of course the two topics can overlap.

For the Partners of Addicts:

Since we each get to decide how to frame our distress, it pays to find a way that allows one to release it rather than harbor it. For me, the neurochemical explanation is very helpful because it is not filled with judgment.

re;

Hi Marnia. Thanks for the links. I'm specifically looking for places that don't patholigise women for having a partner with a porn habit. I find it absolutely ironic that we are paying over and again for what our culture is doing to women, and I'm not going to subject myself to the 'co dpendent' role lol. A couple of the links are dead. If I find anything helpful in my search, I'll post you a link if you'd like? I did listen to Gail Dines, who did a fabulous talk which helped me identify why I'm struggling. It would be easier to release if the world wasn't quite so flooded with pornified images, our Tv and movies etc. It's hard to escape from them. Cheers

To born2may...

I'm glad that you got something from my honest approach and I truly empathize with what you've been going through.

One of the things I think is important to remember is that we're (spouses dealing with these issues) are not trying to judge, moralize, or control our significant others. (Which I believe you know, but those who may have marginalized your pain may not.) The issue is that someone else's actions have harmed us. If instead of ogling, porn, etc. they kicked us in the shins every day I doubt anyone would think we'd be judging them or trying to control them if we asked them to stop. And I'm certain no one would say "be confident and the pain in your shins won't be so bad" or "he's a shin-kicker. that's what they do. why do you need him to be like you?". I'm all for people being themselves, but once we realize our actions have caused harm, it's time to reevaluate ourselves and those actions to see if they really are part of who we are or just well learned bad habits.

And of course this does not mean we don't love our shin-kickers and have immense compassion for them. Of course we do and it's so important to support them as they endeavor to make self improvement. But that doesn't mean we should simply accept the pain as "normal" and just try to be "stronger" or "love ourselves" more. Those things are great - in theory. But what we really do in that situation is build a nice thick wall around ourselves. So we can't get hurt anymore, but no one can really touch us at all after a while.

We don't have to hate our shin-kickers, but being blind to the society that created them will never do any good. And really, we live in a world that breeds porn addicts and it's only getting worse. The way the genders relate to one another is pivotal. But thanks to patriarchal ideas and an over-sexed culture, we're not getting very far together. If anything, we're being driven farther and farther apart all the time.

Oh, and I applaud you for challenging the sex-positive feminists. I wish everyone could see that being anti-porn doesn't mean you're anti-sex. Porn is NOT sex. In fact, it's becoming more and more clear that people who use too much porn aren't having much sex at all.

All the best to you. I hope the shin-kicking is less severe for you these day or has stopped all together.

Shins

I'm sorry your partner's porn use feels like violence.

Is that analogy correct? I'm not sure because I've not used porn while in a relationship. Porn harms the user, the relationship, and then indirectly the partner? Shin kicking could harm both, but relationship harm would be secondary to the violence, not vice versa? That seems important. Porn perhaps requires relationship to harm while violence does not.

Just an analogy

My spouse doesn't use porn and only did out of boyhood habit and boredom. There is no violence nor threat of. However, emotional pain is just as valid as physical and we should strive to prevent it in the same way we would physical pain. No healthy person purposely kicks their partner in the shins because they know that would hurt. Once porn and porn-related habits prove harmful, they should stop. While it may be a challenge to change long held habits, there is still lots of personal responsibility involved.

Forms of violence

I did a lot of work in mens groups in the 80s, and i recall one of the exercises we did was brainstorm a list of types of violence. Once of the things that men commonly viewed as a form of violence was sexual withholding on the part of women. At least to them it felt just as hurtful if not more so than being kicked in the shins. If one agrees with this then one is lead to also view that what male porn users do to women as a consequence of their porn use is likely to be a form of withholding love, and emotional intimacy, availability, respect etc.

Speaking for myself, i do feel that i have done neither of us a service in my past porn use. Im certainly not about to feel guilty about it, heavens above i have enough baggage already, but if there's one thing ive learned these past weeks is that i am immeasurably more there for my partner now. I express my love differently, and more affectionately, and am more respectful of her needs and feelings.

But none of this is about justice. It took me a while to 'get' the name of this site, but really reuniting is what its all about. Learning to communicate, love, and to heal, and thus connect more fully. And after all we can only live and love in the present moment, and dwelling on the past appears more and more unproductive to me, by the day.

What I Learned from My Girlfriend about ThisTread

I started this post last Friday morning after my first final; then my girlfriend showed up at my dorm room after her final to go to lunch. I told her I wanted to finish this and get it posted. She asked me what it was about, etc. Ok, then she wanted to read it. I told her fine, let me finish it. She pestered me and I let her read it before I finished. At that point it was only a couple paragraphs long and almost complete.

She read the thread, my not quite finished post—and then she said, “Your answer is right, but you missed the point. You told LB where she was wrong, that she was expecting something unreasonable, why men look at other women, why women look at other men, but you didn’t offer LB an answer to her real question. ‘What do I do about it?’ That is really what she wants to know.”

My girlfriend is a psychology major and I was prepared for some psychobabble about Freud and how LB has penis envy or something. Instead she just said, “LB wants what everyone does, to feel worth and not to feel hurt. She wants someone to tell her how to get there. It’s obvious that she feels unappreciated.”

My girlfriend’s thought is that LB is so busy holding on to resentment over her husband looking at other women that she can’t hold on to him—in a very literal sense. Her hands are grabbing for resentment instead of reaching out and holding her husband’s arm when she sees him look at another woman. I guess I looked a little lost in her psychological imagery—my eyes may have glazed over a little. My girlfriend said, “What do I do when I catch you looking at other girls?’’

I shrugged my shoulders and said, “Make a smartass remark, clear your throat, glare at me a little?”

“No, beside those things to let you know I am a little annoyed. “ I guess I must have looked lost because she continued, “I reach out and touch you. I put my arm in yours. I move closer to you, I touch you somewhere. Do you ever remember staring at a girl when we already had our arms around each other?”

I told her no, that I couldn’t think of any time in particular that I did but maybe I had. She said that if we are connected physically like that, we are invested in each other and that moment. Both people are less likely to be concerned with other people around them. If a person is doing something or looking at someone else, the personal touch of another person makes an immediate connection and draws the two people together. I told her this sounded like one Marnia’s bonding techniques and she agreed.

She told me that after we got back together she did not feel very confident in our relationship. We had been great back home in high school, but when we went away to college things fell apart half way through the year. We got back together at the end of the year and went back home shortly thereafter. Our relationship got better during the summer and things were pretty good when we were both back home, but then we went back to the university again where we had had problems before. Her concern was that our relationship would fall apart again. She said every time I looked at another girl, she felt insecure and wondered if I had hooked up with the girl while we were apart or if I wished we were not together again.

My girlfriend said she talked to her mother who is a therapist (MFT) and told her she was worried about me checking out other girls. It was her mother that suggested the touch technique for us connecting. My girlfriend said her mother told her she has suggested this technique to other women who had this complaint and it usually worked pretty well. That if I immediately responded to her that she probably didn’t have much to worry about except having a pretty normal guy for a boyfriend. Her mom also told her that she didn’t think that my looking at other girls was the real problem. That there was some underlying problem that she didn’t want to address and that her worrying about my looking at other girls was the way she was reacting to it.

She tried touching me when she noticed me looking at another girl. She told me the first time she wrapped her arm around me, I leaned down and kissed her. I don’t even remember when this happened but she said it immediately made her feel better. The more we touched, the better she felt and the more confident in our relationship she became. She also figured out the underlying problem; resentment over the breakup, us being with other people, and concern for our new relationship. She said once she figured that out, she could release the resentment and hurt and work on making our relationship work.

I never realized that she felt insecure in the relationship or felt resentment about the breakup. I asked her why she never told me this stuff, we share everything. She said when she felt that way; she didn’t feel confident enough to tell me, that maybe I would just bolt. She also didn’t want me to think that every time something was wrong she was going to go whine about me to her mom. I know that things have gotten better throughout the year; I know we love each other; I just never realized how she was working on this without me even knowing it. Knowing this now makes me love her even more.

So instead of writing the post I intended to we discussed our issues and the above is sort of the important points we discussed over a couple of days. It seems like whenever we discuss a thread, we learn more about ourselves than just what the tread covers. There are a few things that really surprised me in our discussion. How close what my girlfriend initiated was to the bonding exercises and Karezza, several months before either of us had ever even heard the word. That her mom, a therapist, suggested the method—do other therapists use this sort of “Karezza-ish” type of technique? That both of us really blamed ourselves for the breakup more than each other—I never would have thought we would be at this point remembering the final blowup a year and a half ago.

So LB to summarize, and sorry about the length, that is how we did it and I didn’t realize it. Rather than being upset try bonding with your husband to bring his interest at that moment back to you. You also need to figure out what beyond his looking at other women is the real issue. Do you feel afraid for the relationship, unappreciated, etc? Above all else, don’t whine or complaint to your husband—the other points are my girlfriend’s; this one is mine, guy’s hate whining and just shutdown. Once you bond with your husband at those moments, get rid of the baggage that is underlying your feelings regarding his looking you will be more confident and heal the relationship. I believe “healing the relationship” is the basis of everything Marnia says on the website.

Marnia asked you to start a blog. Try this and don’t tell your husband what you are doing just see how he reacts. Respond in your blog, my girlfriend and I are anxious to see if it works as well for you as it did for us. Referring to your husband’s looking at other women you said, “It doesn't provide real happiness or any intimacy.” What my girlfriend did with me does build happiness and intimacy. Just think whenever he looks at another woman you have a good excuse to hold onto him, not resentment.

i was away

and I looked at other women as I always do. Can't help but notice them. And came back and made the sweetest love to my life partner and all is wonderful in the world.

 

Have You Tried It?

LB, have you tried the more positive way of dealing with your significant other's eyes wandering? My girlfriend was talking about it the other day and said she wondered if you had tried it and how it worked out for you. I told her the next time I was here I would ask.

Sorry it's been so long... :D

Hi all. I've actually avoided coming back here for a while in order to gather my thoughts. No disrespect whatsoever intended and I still fully believe this site is an invaluable resource.

Maso, I've just now read your post and will give the technique a try. Thank you for taking the time to share this and I will let you know how it goes. However, this doesn't seem to be as prevalent a problem these days.

To my absence: I think my original points might have been misunderstood and I admittedly became a little frustrated. I feel like I may be looking at these issues through a different lens. While I understand that I am the only one I can control (my reactions, my emotions, etc.) my main point has been to look past what we as a Western society have come to believe is biology and reveal socially conditioned behaviors that are not just immutable biological responses.

I have been a spiritual seeker my entire life. More recently, I've become immersed in Buddhism, true Tantra, Taoism, etc. The reason for this is that I don't believe that human behavior is predetermined and we are certainly not destined to act out certain behaviors solely based on our genders. I am more interested in getting to the root of who "I am" void of ego based emotion and learning to integrate the shadow into the whole. My husband has joined me on this journey. Through reading and talking together we have learned a lot about each other and the world we live in - a world that just so happened to have a rather large hand in shaping who we've become and how we've learned to define our sexuality.

A few things I've learned that pertain to this conversation:

Not all men are lookers. I have been through two marriages. My first husband was not a looker (if he did, it was not at all obvious) and my second is/was. What I’ve learned is that those who do look more – or feel compelled to look – are often acting out behavior that has been created by deep rooted psychological and social influences. These behaviors actually solve problems created in the psyche throughout the course of growing up.

My first husband was and still is worshipped by his mother. He was the child she always wanted (after trying for 9 years to conceive) and even when she had an unexpected second son, he remained the favored child. My first husband’s mother is a very emotional woman but no one takes this to be that she is unhappy or critical. Instead they play it off as part of her sweet, if not a bit silly, female quirks. My first husband’s father was never a looker and never pointed out women to his sons. And my first husband was never a porn watcher – at least not until more recently when the internet started allowing it to become normalized behavior. So his presence alone was a joy to his mother and his father bonded with him in positive ways that didn’t have to do with watching women.

Now, my second husband (who is by far a better emotional, spiritual, and intellectual match for me) had a completely different upbringing. His father is a constant looker. I catch him looking at me on a regular basis. And his grandfather exhibits the exact same behavior. One thing about these men is very telling of why they do this. They all come from critical and distant fathers. Actually, the only way I’ve witnessed the grandfather relating to the father is to bust his balls about fixing something around the house, mowing the lawn, etc. Always critical. And perhaps the one major way they discovered they couldn’t disappoint their fathers was to watch women together. There was no way to make that behavior wrong and, in fact, it was a way for them to bond together in an acceptable way.

Now, in my husband’s case, his mother was also a bitter and perennially unhappy woman as he was growing up. He witnessed on more than one occasion her rejecting his father’s advances and it’s even a well worn joke that “Dad never gets any”. She had 4 kids and was obviously at times very overwhelmed – screaming to the children that she hated them at her worst. She also used the kids as a sounding board whenever she was angry at their father.

So, what my husband learned was that women were inherently hard to please creatures who were prone to emotional outbursts that caused the people around them emotional pain. He probably felt like he needed to walk on glass just to make sure she stayed happy. As the oldest child, he shouldered much of the burden to keep his mother from exhibiting her darkness on his siblings and was often blamed when one of them did something wrong. In a sense, everything was his responsibility and his fault. And all this from his mother – the one woman every child wants love, comfort, and a sense of specialness from.

So, the safer route to dealing with women in this case is to keep them at a distance – to possess them in a way that they can’t wound or reject by collecting their images and “using” them at a later time for personal gratification. In a sense they can solve the problem of desiring female acceptance (and feeling resentful of and controlled by that desire) with the band-aid of masturbation. Add to this the mark of rejection most young men deal with from girls as they approach adulthood and the feelings of inadequacy life lays onto most adult men, and I believe you have the beginnings of a guy who compulsively ogles women. Once we throw in our society’s obsession with novelty and objectification as “normal” male behavior (easy access to the comfort of the “band-aid”) the recipe is complete.

Phew. I know that’s a lot to read. Sorry for the long windedness there, but I’m hoping to get my point of view across. I do not for a second believe all men (or all women for that matter) are going to ogle the opposite sex as part of some biological predetermined behavior. I don’t think there’s much we do that can be classified that way. Even if orgasm causes people to tire of each other due to the Coolidge effect, we are not simply slaves to our biology. To say that idea is inevitable is to deny our higher human potential – and what we TRULY desire for lifelong happiness. It might even be easier if biology were the only influence when it comes to sex (which is why I believe it’s such a popular notion) but human beings are far more complex than that. The things that we inherently desire throughout our lives are intimacy, acceptance, and connection. How we solve the problems of getting those things takes on many guises and can often become habitual. Once we can be aware of the methods our subconscious uses to solve those problems, we can make sure they no longer control us or cause harm to our intimate relationships. This then leaves us open to more meaningful connections and self actualization.

Thank you all for taking the time to share your experiences and your thoughts. I wish love and happiness for all of you.

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