Where we are at

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Submitted by Louie on
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My wife and I are at an interesting point in our development as a couple. We are not having sex, yet we are being more intimate than we have ever been before. I was struggling to understand exactly what is going on with us, and I think that I kind of understand it now. I got the missing pieces of the puzzle from listening to Barry Long's recording of "Making Love".

I was my wife's first sexual partner and gave her the first orgasm that she ever had. She was 21 at the time and I did it through digital stimulation. When she told me it was her first orgasm I did not believe her. I said that surely she must have experimented on herself. She was adamant that she had never done that. Masturbation was not the least bit appealing to her. She is now 37 and in a recent conversation she maintained that she has never masturbated herself, even after she learned how enjoyable orgasms can be. She said that it just feels pointless to do that kind of thing by herself. It was the intimacy of the sex play that she enjoyed, not the orgasms.

So that was puzzle number 1. Why did she not enjoy pleasuring herself? I used to think it was guilt that kept her hands away from her own sexual organs. However, I am now starting to think that she is being totally honest with me. She honestly sees no value in solo sex.

The other thing that really puzzled me was that she seemed to really enjoy sex when we did it, but made little or no attempt to make sex happen. In fact, she seemed to resist doing it most of the time. How can a person really enjoy something, but not really care if it happens or not? I know now that this puzzle was entirely created by own perception of what sex was about. I was addicted to orgasms. I was using orgsams to self medicate, and as per the teachings of Marnia and Barry Long, I was digging myself a deeper and deeper hole over time. I was stuck in a loop, always searching for the next orgasm to release my sexual tension. Thus, sex was of enormous importance to me. My addiction kept my brain chemicals out of whack and my sexual energy stuck in low gear. I never held onto the energy long enough to get out of low gear.

My wife had no such hang-ups. She enjoyed orgams, but was not addicted to them. For her, orgasm was not the point to sex. Further to that, she knew on some level that the sex we were having was not real love making. It was driven very much by my addiction. That is where her resistance came from. She did not object to love making. She objected to being used as a means for feeding my addiction.

Barry Long talks about how many women eventually give up on the idea of true love making and buy into the distorted male obsession with orgasm. I think that my wife tried to do that. She tried to do sex the way I did it, but it never felt right for her. In the end she decided that if sex was about lust and the pursuit of orgasm, and if she did not enjoy that, then why bother doing sex? God bless her for that. Her decision to get off of the dopamine treadmill and refuse to get back on was the best thing that ever happened to us. It was painful for me when she got off, but it had to happen. One of us had to do it.

Of course, I stayed on the treadmill for a long time by myself. During our long sexual drought I kept right on masturbating and pursuing that dopamine, all the while being resentful of her for refusing to play the game with me. I saw her as a cruel and neglectful wife who ignored my "need" (addiction). It was only in the past year or so that I have started to wonder if it was me that was doing something wrong.

So now I am here, and I think that I have my head wrapped around all of this now. I understand what happened, and why it happened, and why it was a good thing that my wife decided to stop playing the game. I also know what it is that my wife actually wants from her intimate life, and I have started leading her toward it.

We are not currently having sex, but we have been cuddling a lot. Some of our cuddle sessions have been epic (2-3 hours). There has been some serious energetic exchange going on. The effect on her and on our marriage has been tremendous. She looks five years younger, and she just seems to glow with radiant feminine energy. She is much softer and more affectionnate with me. Her interest in sex is also starting to revive. The fire was totally dead, but now there are glowing embers again. She has initiated a couple of conversations about sex recently and our cuddling is becoming more intimate. We are gradually working our way back up and there is no dopamine anywhere in sight. This is about love being created. Real love. Deep down intimate love is coming into our lives for the first time. We are being born again as a couple. This is brand new for both of us and thus we have to feel it out as we go.

I do not know where things will go from here, but I know with absolute certainty that we are headed in the right direction. I intend to just keep doing what I am doing. I am not going to force anything because force is not at all necessary.

I may be the pilot, but I feel no need to fight the rudder. The boat is going with the wind right now, so I just need to stand there and see where the wind takes us. I am sure that I will be surprised and delighted. Some of the best destinations are not on the map, so you cannot plot a course to them. You just have to allow yourself to be carried there.

As an aside I will say that this Karezza thing requires some serious self honesty. I was not prepared for that. I was looking for a way to fix my wife. It turns out she was OK all along. It was me who needed fixing.



cuddling is like magic

it is so amazing that nobody has it figured out. Nothing is more important than cuddling with your woman. Everything follows from that. Just stay the course, bud. How wonderful it all is.

I love reading your posts.

Cuddling Rocks

The fact that we cuddle so much has taken the uregency out of my quest to be sexual with my wife. I still want to be sexual with her, but it is not an obsession any more. I can wait until she is ready.

It has also removed the need for masturbation. I think I am at the point where I can give up M altogether. I no longer need the meager comfort that it provided.

That is wonderful

that you have had those realizations. Too many people (my ex-husband included) thought love was "fixing" the other person to fit their ideal. Even dressed up in the most loving, altruistic language, the message was "I'm fine, but you need to be fixed." That you realized these things about yourself and your wife is impressive and I am so happy to hear how both of you are progressing.


What a great post.

Made me think of a question. And maybe this questions sounds stupid, and the answer is simple and self-evident. But I'd be interested in reading if anyone has compiled a list of good tips for cuddling. How to promote the kinds of feelings being discussed here.

Particularly, ways to cuddle that don't "rev up" the engine so to speak and lead to escalation.

This has been a great process of discovery for me.


Two tips

Be very relaxed. The more relaxed the better.

Be very comfortable with the idea that cuddling is an end in itself.

The two things go hand in hand. If you are trying to use cuddling as a warm-up for sex then you are not going to be relaxed. Physically your are cuddling her, but mentally you are planning how to start escalating things. You are ramping yourself up sexually and emotionally and eventually this will make you agitated.

So just cuddle and be happy with that.

Beautiful post Louie

I happen to think you're a pretty special guy to figure all this out and see your wife through different eyes, when it would be so easy to stay in that resentful space and sing the same tired songs that arise in all of us who feast on the standard mainstream sex advice.

I'm sure the coming lovemaking will be "epic" to use Maso's word, but you have to admit...being the cause of a partner's glow just by exchanging loving energy is pretty epic too. Smile

Now, how do you get what you've been learning out to those cranky, miserable guys on the forums you used to frequent when it's time? It's not easy, is it?


I posted a thread about cuddling at the last forum that I attended. There were three or four brave souls who replied that they enjoyed cuddling their wives. There may have been many others who read it, and got something from it, but did not reply. If even one marriage improved because someone tried cuddling then it was a huge success.

However, it was mostly ignored. Most of those guys want sex, not cuddling. Cuddling is not masculine in their opinion. That place was all about being masculine. Or I should say, it is all about the distorted view of masculinity that most of western society believes in.

I can relate


Your post is just great. I think I can understand that your wife never wanted to masturbate. In fact, I think I would have never started with this if I had gotten married exactly at age 14 - when my sexual desire started to really "awake". But of course I was way too young to get married at that age, and of course this option wasn't even under debate. We don't live in biblical times anymore after all!

Indeed, I wanted a boyfriend, but nobody wanted me at this time, and so I started satisfying myself. The Western society encouraged me to experiment that way after all. In all these youth magazines you could even find detailed instructions how to give yourself pleasure (as a girl). Of course I regret now that I wasn't raised a Christian and that I didn't learn at that time that this is not how God originally intended sex. Well, about 25 years later I'm finally getting the full picture - and this site is really helpful to get even more insights that I've never dreamed of getting.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that if I had discovered my first sexual experiences with the man of my life, and if HE would have been the one to give me my first orgasm, I think I would also have been indifferent to masturbation.

Interestingly, my last boyfriend was a bit similar to your wife. He much more preferred having actual sex over doing it himself. I remember one time I asked him if he didn't masturbate from time to time. He said no, he didn't like doing it by himself - he would rather have actual intercourse, or doing it over the phone with a woman. And this was what he did with me most of the times we were intimate together. I think he was really satisfied each time after having an ejaculation. However, I wasn't so satisfied, because I couldn't lie in his arms afterwards!

Anyway, thank you again Louie for your input here!

Love Barry

He's amazing and completely no BS. He has been pivotal to us during our journey and, I'm sure, will continue to be so. It all makes way too much sense once you hear it out loud. Epiphanies abound! And honesty! It's so huge and he makes that very clear. But real honesty is loving and compassionate - because the other is worthy of the truth - not brutal or without care for others feelings. Love him. Too bad he had to pass on.


It is also too bad that his books are not yet available in EBook format. Somebody over at the Barry Long Foundation should get on that.

thought the same thing...

Eventually I will buy more of his books but I would've already done so if they were in ebook format. Someone should get on that. It's really not that hard to do. Maybe I should send an email and offer to help them out. :)

Interesting Event

Last night I was stuffy when I went to bed. At about 4:30 this morning my wife woke me up because I was snoring. For the next ten minutes she tossed and turned. I asked her if she wanted a cuddle and she gave me a rather acidic "No". I was a little offended, but I know that she is never at the top of her game when she is woken in the night so I brushed it off. After another ten minutes I thought she was asleep. I decided to go down and sleep in the basement so that I would not wake her up again if I started snoring.

This morning I came to the breakfast table and my wife came over and gave me a big hug and a kiss on the neck. She said "I am so sorry. You wanted to cuddle and I snubbed you. I feel like I chased you out of the bed." I laughed and told her that I was not feeling snubbed. I only went to the basement so that I would not wake her again. All was forgiven.

It is funny that cuddling has become such a big thing for us that she would feel guilty about not wanting to do it at 4:30 in the morning.

it's a good thing

that she feels okay with saying "no I don't want to."

I think that's the key to unlocking a woman. Letting her feel good about saying no. It's really stressful for women to say no (men too but especially women) and having that freedom, without your reacting or feeling bad, will be one of the most powerful ways to help her unlock sexually.



We had a talk on that subject a few weeks ago. I told her that in the past I used to pressure her to have sex with me because I had ideas about how a sex life was supposed to go. Since then my ideas have changed. I now think it is very important that both participants be willing. If one person does not want to be there, then there is no point in doing it. It will just cause resentment.

She responded that she did resent me sometimes when I pressured her to have sex. It made her feel like I cared about sex more than I cared about her. However, she also said that she no longer worries about having to fight with me over sex. She knows that my attitude has changed and that I will accept no when no is the honest answer.

At the last forum that I frequented there was this idea of "escalating consequences" that was quite popular, and I never liked it. The idea was that if your wife will not willingly be sexual with you, you start suggesting that there will be consequences if she does not get on board. The longer that she resists the stronger the consequences become until eventually you leave her. I never understood exactly how this was supposed to work. You cannot create positive outcomes with negative tactics. The best you could ever get with this approach is unwilling compliance (service sex). Eventually her fear of the consequences will overcome her resistance. However, her resentment will just start growing.

I have made it clear to my wife through both words and consistent action that there are no consequences if she says no to intimacy. On the last forum a few people told me that I better get used to being in a sexless marriage if that was my stance. Maybe they are right. However, I would rather go without sex than obtain it in fearful and controlling ways.

I have wonderful gifts to offer my wife. However, it only works if she is open to receive.

I totally understand

people's frustration. Sex really is nourishing, and that's why it's important keep both partners feeling receptive and not pressured.

I used to occasionally ask men who were cranky because their women weren't responding if they had ever had girlfriends who demanded constant sexual performance from them...whether they felt like it or not. Some had...and they didn't like it AT ALL.

Whatever that biological response to being pressured to have sex is...it's visceral and powerful. That's why bonding behaviors are usually the best bet. They take time, but they speak directly to the old part of the brain that has thrown up those walls.

If men knew all this, they would master bonding behaviors rather than plotting "consequences."

Trusting love

I think it comes down to whether or not you trust love. I trust love therefore I am willing to be very patient and loving with my wife. I know that is the only way to get to where I want to go.

But, I was not always like that. It was not too long ago that I did not trust love much at all. I used to live very much in a world of fear. Fear of losing my wife. Fear of being alone. Fear of being in a sexless marriage. Fear of being a failure. I was driven by that fear to do all kinds of things that were not very loving. I withheld affection, I argued with her, I guilted her. I even threatened the future of the marriage once. It was only when I had thrown down that last card, and still did not get what I wanted, that I realized how messed up the whole thing was.

Why would she WANT to be with me if she knew the only thing keeping me around was sex?

The answer is that sex was NOT the only thing that was keeping me around. There was much more to it than that, and therefore I was being dishonest with myself if I thought that lack of sex was reason enough to leave. I had to hit that point in order to see my own insanity for what it was.

I kept telling myself that I needed sex, but all along it was love that I really wanted. I guess I thought that sex was proof of love or something. I think that is a common misperception.

Love can be expressed through sex, but it is much bigger than sex.

You were smarter than I was

I actually did drive a partner (not married) away based on what I thought was "bad sex" - only to realize (when my neurochemical ripples abated Wink ) - that I really loved him and that he was more important than the sex. That was when I vowed not to let my genitals "steer" in the future. And that's probably why I was open to atypical solutions.

I suspect most of us will have to learn this set of priorities the hard way. Our genes evolved to spread themselves....

And trust yourself

>I trust love therefore I am willing to be very patient and loving with my wife.
>I know that is the only way to get to where I want to go.

You are truly amazing for sure. But don't be too patient. You still have a role as male pilot, and leader, "the one that was sensitive to all this". In particular put any remaining fear of confrontation aside. You are on new ground. Honestly i think that if you were to just read your original post above to her she will probably melt right into your arms. The proof that 'its different this time' as you put it, for me, came about by sharing my learnings with her each day, reading CPA and snippets from reuniting to her, showing her the Richardson interview video. Diana really spoke to her somehow. Made her feel understood.

> I kept telling myself that I needed sex, but all along it was love that I really wanted.