♥ Twenty five

sood's picture
Submitted by sood on
Printer-friendly version

I've been keeping a diary of our sex life. I've also kept tabs on our moods. Until recently, the last orgasm I had was more two months ago. During that time, my wife had three orgasms. We've just gone through a major hiccup, with orgasms coming thick and fast. One of mine was a wet dream, which I haven't had for ages. I think it was inevitable. I was beginning to feel like a ball of dough that couldn't rise any further; something had to give.

My wife has a fairly tolerant attitude to climaxing. She can take it or leave it, but on balance would rather it happened than not. The trouble is, she is dependant on me for this. Nothing she can - or is willing to - do will bring one on unless I assist in some way. Because she enjoys orgasms, and because I enjoy helping her have them, it's tricky to know whether or not to continue doing the things I have always done, now that I believe there may be a chance she'll feel better if I don't.

We have talked about this and she has said she is quite happy not orgasming; but she also says no one in their right mind would want to give up something so pleasurable. Anyway, for the time being, she still orgasms, when the occasion seems to demand it.

For my part, not orgasming is no longer as difficult an issue. Whereas before, and for a long time, I was involved in a struggle with myself, now it has become almost second nature. That is, there is still a strong desire to reach orgasm, but it is paltry compared to the desire not to. I don't know if this has left me more or less lustful, or loving. However, as I said, I recently had a wet dream, and a couple of other orgasms slid out of me almost without my noticing.

Overall, my mood is unchanged. I've always been pretty calm, with occasional flare ups, throughout our married life. I'd say as I've got older the flare ups have lessened. I never noticed any particular diminution in them during periods of not orgasming in recent years, but I was never certain how long those periods went on for. I can now say with certainty that not orgasming for eight weeks did nothing to prevent, or minimise, my most recent flare up, which occured a couple of weeks ago; and three orgasms in as many days doesn't seem to have left a negative legacy, other than me feeling sexually depleted.

For a while, I wondered if my wife's orgasms affected me. There seemed to be something going on that I couldn't put my finger on. During the last three months, her moods have been very stable; but then they always were. However, I'm beginning to sense there might be undercurrents I'm largely oblivious to. I believe my wife could, very subtly, and unintentionally, be setting something in motion that causes me to react, far less subtly, so what appears to be - and, of course, still is - 'my problem', is actually an issue going on with her; and that this is linked to her orgasms. Until she has gone as long as me not having an orgasm, I'll never know. The possibility is, of course, that this sort of incitory behaviour could still be going on, without orgasm having anything to do with it; but it would be good to know, for sure.

We've had plenty of sexual activity, non sexual cuddling, and general friendliness, thoughout this period, though no more than at other times in our lives. The sex is different, but not that different. I'd say, by avoiding orgasm, we are still having largely conventional sex, non conventionally. It is mostly great, without being ecstatic. Though stand out moments are not as good as those I remember from the past, virtually every encounter nowadays is a positive one - unique, satisfying, self contained - which wasn't the case before. If pressed, I would say our sex life has never been better, but we are far from having the best sex of our lives. We have fewer lows, but also fewer highs.

The most profound change I've noticed has little to do with having or not having orgasms but with us sharing responsibility for sexual initiation and direction. I've explained the rationale behind this before. My hope is that eventually we'll acquire a non scheduled way of cultivating the nicities of our intimate life that is both equitable and satisfying.

On the question of not orgasming long term, I am still in two minds. A growing part of me is enjoying the feeling of being ever ready, reaching satiation without  exhaustion, enjoying the journey with no end. A diminishing but still significant part misses the heights of fervant eroticism, the wipe out experience, followed by recovery. The attendant sticky mess of ejaculating is not missed by anyone, though my wife is concerned about lack of orgasm being bad for my health. I share this concern, a little. Although I don't feel I'm constraining myself in the slightest - I rarely get close to going over the edge, these days, and if I do, there's no sense of having to fight to contain this - I do question the good sense of repeatedly setting off with a clear cut bodily intention that is at constant variance with my overall aim.

Every time we begin lovemaking, the process of arousal represents my body's desire, even compulsion, to ejaculate. Any pleasure I feel reflects the enticement nature provides to get my sperm where it needs to go. I have no problem enjoying this for my own ends - riding piggyback on my lizard's purpose - but I do wonder (and worry) if what's happening behind the scenes, in innumerable vascular ways (actions and reactions coming into play, to support the urge to climax) may not relish being repeatedly encouraged to go towards the point of ultimate satisfaction, but never allowed to get to that point.

I've been searching around for a suitable analogy. All I can think of is having a favourite food that, for health reasons, I have decided not to eat any more. However, I keep a supply of it in my larder, because I still allow myself to look at it, touch it, sniff it, lick it, and even put it in my mouth and chew it. The taste is still as I remember, but I am committed to not swallowing any of this food. So, taking care not to allow a single drop, especially when mixed with my saliva, to slip down my gullet, I savour the texture and taste and then spit it out.

I might find this curiously satisfying, but I would still wonder whether the opening and closing of various internal valves and ducts, as all organs associated with digestion get put on alert, causing secretions in my mouth and stomach, encouraging anticipation in my intestine - none of which ever gets to fulfil its purpose - might in time have an adverse effect on me, in ways I couldn't imagine. I think I would have to consider this behaviour more questionable than simply stopping stocking the food in the first place.

I've noticed after my recent orgasms, although my mood seems unchanged, I am less interested - massively so - in having sex; and this is reflected in (or reflects) my wife's diminished attractiveness to me. It's quite subtle, but whereas before, for as long as I was avoiding orgasm, everything about her seemed delightful, and I felt an almost continual urge to reach out towards her, for a period of days following the orgasms, my interest waned. I still appreciated her, but I was less drawn towards expressing this. It was as if the magnetic pull I had become familiar with had vanished.

Since I often equate sex with food, I see this as the inevitable consequence of satisfying a hunger. After a large meal, the least interesting thing I can think of would be another large meal. However, if I had only put the food in my mouth, savoured it, and then spat it out, I might well be ready to taste it again within very little time.

I'm beginning to suspect this delight in my wife's presence when i'm not orgasming isn't so much the accumulive result of bonding behaviours but simply the age old desire to impregnate. The lizard lives on, inside his cage!

So, where am I, on my journey? 

I prefer sex without orgasm. I never thoight Ii would say this, but it's true. I still like orgasms, and I don't seem to be too adversely affected by them; but they're not so good that they make up for all the advantages of not orgasming.

However, I am worried about the effects on my health from not orgasming. 

I'm unsure how I should deal with my wife's orgasms. Since she relies on me to reach orgasm, it seems unkind to deny her assistance, even if by doing so I might ultimately help her.

I feel we haven't yet cracked the Karezza Code. Having read lots on the subject, it's obvious there are many different ways of practicing non orgasmic sex; but the mode we haven't got to grips with, is the one emphasising attention rather than action. I guess there's no hurry, and things will unfold in their own time, but it's disappointing to find ourselves yawning sometimes when by many of the accounts I've heard we should be streaming with ecstasy!

One purchase I keep intending to make is a sand timer. My wife and I have constant (good natured) disagreements about the passage of time. Since neither of us likes checking clocks, I thought it might be instructive to reach out and flip over a sixty minute timer whenever we start making love. We might then glance at it now and again, just to verify how long what seems like a long time (to my wife) or a short time (to me) is.

I'm realising the issue of the time we devote to what we do is important. It seems to me, very little worthwhile can be done in a hurry; and even if it can, the more rushed we are, the less we will be able to appreciate it. 

Topic:

Comments

enjoyed reading about your journey Sood

It's interesting...

I too don't find it difficult not to orgasm. It seems quite easy and natural now although I haven't had an unexpected orgasm either. For me it's been over three months since I had one and I don't miss them. They seem a long way off.

Whether this isn't good or healthy -- I don't see it that way. Tantric and Daoist males have a long many centuries old practice of this. I think if it was harmful they would have figured that out. Who knows for sure? But I think it's fine. We are after all designed to become aroused frequently. The machinery is designed to go on for a bit, hum along and then shut off without firing on all cylinders so to speak. This is normal. Who knows for sure though.

The streaming with ecstasy comment -- for me it is very ecstatic. My wife as I've written frequently doesn't experience that at all. But I do. It is amazing compared to how sex used to be. I think it is extremely pleasurable and ecstatic especially as I am learning to focus on the root of my penis and bringing up energy or whatever that is into my body. I don't know how to describe it but the feelings are getting so much better as I do that. And I feel like this is the tip of the iceberg.

Also, you mention you feel that your enhanced feelings for your wife are a result of holding back orgasm rather than bonding behaviors. I'm not so sure about this. I do know that the feelings for my wife that I usually have these days are just amazing compared to those I used to have. And it feels really good to have these feelings. Itself it is a good feeling, while in the past, being horny was not a good feeling and still isn't.

So I will have to say I think this increased attraction and these amazing feelings are a result of bonding behaviors and not having an orgasm. They tend to dissipate for a bit for you after orgasm. I haven't experienced that precisely but I have experienced a huge drop in those good feelings after certain cuddling sessions that were kind of edging sessions. Those edging sessions must have appeared to my brain like an orgasm and those amazing feelings for my wife kind of dropped for a few days.

Your last comment about wanting a timer suggests you want longer sex durations and your wife shorter ones. I am in the same camp. My wife wants to get on with her day or whatever. I just want to lay there and have sex. I could go for an hour or two hours or four hours and bum around and be happy. I think this has something to do with my wife's lack of interest in that -- I think she is preoccupied with a lot of stuff she wants to do, and she has a problem just laying around in any event, sex or no.

Is your wife deriving great pleasure from these Karezza sessions when she doesn't orgasm? Maybe that's an issue responsible for her not wanting to do this as long as you want to?

Time

I think the question of time is critical. Basically, it works like this. During conventional sex, orgasm always defined when it would end. My wife has never been multi orgasmic, so as soon as she reached her orgasm, that was it. Me, too. So we usually aimed to reach orgasm together. To do this, lovemaking could take a while, but not usually more than, say, half an hour. And throughout that time, my wife felt she was on a journey with a clearly defined end. She never really enjoyed stopping midday, taking a break, and returning. Once the journey had begun, she wanted to finish it.

Occasionally, we could get out of synch, but generally, we found that the time it took to reach orgasm was the ideal time to be making love for. However, once the concept of avoiding orgasm was introduced, we suddenly found ourselves in different waters. Since there was no well defined end, how long should we continue for? This has brought up a major difference between us. My wife enjoys Karezza, but her interest wanes long before mine. She might carry on, because I want her to, but I can sense as soon as her heart is no longer in it, and it quickly loses its allure for me, too. 

A lot depends on the time of day and how she stacks indulging in pleasure with other calls on her time. In the evening, the major 'call' is oblivion, so if we start Karezza lovemaking in bed when we're anywhere near the time she usually goes to sleep, we might only be ten minutes into our rhythm when she starts becoming drowsy. There's little better than falling asleep joined at the genitals but if it happens too soon it can feel like starting a symphony but barely getting past the introduction.

At other times of the day, it's different; but there's still this nagging sense that her mind starts drifting to the 'next thing to be done' way before mine does. It's not because I haven't got anything better to do (actually, little I have to do is any better) but because I began lovemaking with the mindset of continuing it as long as possible. I'm beginning to think we need to agree beforehand what sort of timescale is appropriate. After all, going on forever is no more reasonable than stopping too soon.

Cooking a meal, washing clothes, weeding a patch of garden, painting a picture, reading a book, writing a letter - everything my wife does requires effort, application and ... time. She agrees, nothing worthwhile can be done in a hurry. So when I ask her, why does Karezza usually undershoot rather than overshoot, she has no real answer; and again, I think this is because, unlike most other activities,  it has no obvious ending. In the absence of a proper finish line, as soon as her mind drifts during Karezza, the 'next thing to do' takes on greater importance than what she's currently doing.

To me, Karezza seems more like tandom, moving meditation than anything else. Meditation has no formal end, but it requires a certain minimum length of time, and quality of attention, to be worthwhile. When I practiced TM briefly, it was always for twenty minutes. It was emphasised that less than this would be a waste of time. I have Buddhist friends who sit daily for an hour. I'm anticipating trying to introduce a similar time accord into our Karezza lovemaking, just to see if it changes the dynamic. 

The other big issue for me is what my mind could be doing, besides luxuriating in pleasure. I think on another thread you make the point of concentrating on the root of the penis. Then, there's sensing the circling of energy, even if I harbour doubts as to it's existence. And also, maybe, sensing something coming from my wife's breasts, even if she doesn't want to admit there could be. At the moment, unfortunately, she has zero desire for her breasts to play any part in lovemaking. She certainly doesn't welcome the idea of cultivating their sexual capacity.  However, maybe if I pay them the right sort of attention, something might shift.

If Diana Richardson is correct in what she says about the central importance of the breasts in opening up a woman's sexuality, then presumably this is not a learned behaviour, so much as what would happen naturally for women if it hadn't somehow become squashed. If this capacity is lying latent in my wife, maybe I can help uncover it.

You're probably right about bonding behaviour having more of - and a better - influence than the lizard. I was half joking about that, although I don't for one minute doubt his - my lizard's - persistence.

Always insightful

Thanks Sood. I'm sure the lizard is still at work, but why not outsmart the lizard a bit if it means one's spouse pretty much always looks adorable? Very useful technique if one would like to stay happily monogamous, seems to me.

How often would you want to ejaculate to assuage your worries? Why not simply choose that schedule if Mother Nature doesn't provide?

BTW, no need for ♥s. Just choose "karezza" under "Topic," as you did.

Caged lizard

I think I was always looking for a bigger, more marked difference between our moods and attitudes before and after orgasm and couldn't understand why they weren't very obvious. I kept wondering why neither my wife nor I seemed to find each other downright objectionable, no matter how many orgasms we had. I hadn't appreciated that what might be happening was far more subtle than the stark 'white' of attraction or 'black' of loathing. 

So, yes, given the choice between finding each other continually irresistible, on all levels, sexual and otherwise, or oscillating between rampant hunger and satiated familiarity, why not go with the former?

As you say, if the health isue bothers me, I can always chose occasional ejaculation as an option. Relying on nature seems a bit wasteful, though. The wet dream I had was a major disappointment, as I was unconscious for (what I assume was) the best part of it, and only woke up to the sticky mess at the end.

it really is as Marnia calls it, ripples

strange, but I notice these kind of dips in our relationship on certain days post-O. And I notice them for me as well as for her. It takes awhile to really "get" it.

Subtle indeed but very real and makes things easier as I slowly understand the ground rules post-O. And what will happen and not take it personally. It isn't that we hate each other or anything like that, it's just...a pulling away that happens at certain times in a certain way. But definitely real.

I think the neatest thing about this type of living is as you get older, you don't grow bored with each other the way I see most couples seem to be. There are some marriages still full of sex and love after 20 or 25 years, but most are not. The studies reveal the longer people are together the *less* satisfied they are.

This way of living completely turns that on its ear.

Sood

I'm only one guy but after 13+ years of obstaining from orgasm I have not seen any signs of ill effects. Hard to get statistics on this sort of thing from the general public and I doubt the medical community is even considering a study about this.

Side effects

I think my fear has to do with the common perception that there can't be too much ejaculation for prostrate health, so maybe there can be too little. However, I doubt we will ever know what the ideal sexual practice is.

On the plus side, what may be worth pointing out is this. For much of my life, I have generally found myself getting up in the middle of the night to urinate. I don't remember when I didn't do this, so it hasn't really crept up on me with age. Sometimes, I would get up twice in a night. However, since starting Karezza seriously, I've noticed this tendency has become less, to the point where it is now not unusual for me to sleep through the night without difficulty. 

There may be no connection; but it seems as worth noting as the claims for hair regrowth I've seen elsewhere on the forum.

Healthy penis

My lover (who is 52) has noticed in the two-plus years that we've been practicing karezza, his urine stream has become strong and steady, the way it was when he was a young man (it had gotten weaker in recent years).

Also, orgasms sometimes come during karezza and they are different~~I don't think there is any reason to tell yourself it's all or nothing (or that you can only experience orgasm through wet dreams if you want to be a "true" karezza practitioner). If one comes, it's beautiful. If it doesn't, it's still beautiful. The whole point is not to think about them during lovemaking. Just let your mind stay present. That's all you can do and then enjoy the ride!

And about the time issue~~I have learned to let go and let lovemaking be the number one priority in my life. And guess what happened when I did that? Everything still gets done...our other projects get done more smoothly and at rather warp speed, it seems. It's very "woo" but true and I would never believe it if I heard someone tell me this rather than having it happen on my own.

My lover was here for about 48 hours these past two days and in that time we managed to make love for approximately 10 hours (?) total, grocery shop, cook beautiful meals, go to work one day, shop for and install a storm door, take a wheelbarrow in for a new wheel (twice~~first one went flat, lol), chainsaw and dispose of a HUGE tree that had fallen in my horses' pasture, watch a really bad movie, enjoy coffee, enjoy the horses, do a little photo shoot, and sit outside to watch the stars and moon. Oh, and we slept two nights as well!

Love is my religion~~when I give it first priority in my life, everything else falls into place.

I love this Rachel. 10 hours

I love this Rachel. 10 hours of conventional fucking and I'd never have been able to accomplish much of anything...except maybe the meals and the stars and the sleep...and maybe a bunch of anxiety induced relationship conversation.

lol!

My lady bits wouldn't be able to withstand 10 hours of conventional sex, lol...karezza makes it so *both* of us are always ready (and able) to connect. Sex finally feels the way I always wanted it to feel~~full of love, passion, ecstasy (and no faking!).

I'm jealous.

I have noticed the same sort of things with my body, stronger urine stream etc. The benefits are amazing. I am jealous though, 10 hrs of intercourse in two days! How did you do that, it takes my wife and I a week to get in that much intercourse, I'm jealous.

it would take us two or three weeks for that

every couple is different and we can't compare outselves. It's an evolving path.

For example: at present our intercourse lasts 20 minutes or sometimes 15 minutes but it's almost every day. I compare myself now to  myself then, and it was 20 minutes twice a week and nothing like the feelings and pleasure I get 24 X 7 now. Intercourse is such heavon now. Then it was nice but it was all about that 15 second blissful orgasm. 

Comparing then to now, there *is* no comparison.

And I am thinking that as my wife's sensations and presence evolves along with mine, our intercourse will last longer but we shall see. 

 

prostate health

Frequent nocturnal urination is a sign of an enlarged prostate. This can happen when you are quite young. I remember after I used to ejaculate, even in my 20s, if I urinated it would hurt. Now I recognize this as urethral and perhaps prostate inflammation and there was a weird feeling of having to urinate but it hurt to do so, but I had to, but it hurt...and this would go away after an hour. The more often I ejaculated the worse this was.

Also, even in my 20s, I would get up at night to urinate.

Then I embarked on certain practices. First, make sure I had urinated before ejaculation. Second, later on, a practice I won't go into here but it resulted in this problem going away.

I no longer get up either unless I drank a glass of water (a tall glass) before bedtime or something like that.

And, seems interesting that you had a wet dream. Your body isn't going to allow you to have too infrequent emptying of the prostate...it's taking care of business while you are asleep. So why worry about it? It's being taken care of.

 

Age?

So Sood, how old are you? Have you gone in for a prostate exam? I'm 56, the age where prostate issues begin to be more common. Went in for an exam recently and got a clean bill of health. A nice relief

As far as the time thing, I always let my wife choose the ending. Its just what feels right. I feel like the woman is at the center of the sexual experience, that its her domain. On a subtle level, whenever I follow her lead around the ending, I perceve that she remains fully open. When I push, even a little for it to go longer it feels like she closes ever so slightly. Like I stuck my will in where it didnt belong.

Even though we go on for a good while I almost always feel that I could go on longer. I feel like there's something in my masculine nature that is built to serve and as long as my woman wants me inside her I can go on and on. So in that regard, without orgasm, there is no end except her end. When she's done I'm done. I could say we both sense the end together but if I'm honest with myself I'm really sensing her end and know its time for me to end with her.

Sort of like being a sled dog. I grew up around my fathers Siberian Huskies and used to sled dog race them. There's something in a husky that just wants to pull, and pull, and pull without end. It seems to be built into their nature and they love to do it. Until you stop the sled they'll just keep on pulling. I'm like this metaphorically, built to pull but not steer, at least in the sexual realm. When she climbs aboard my boat I'll be the captain and take her where I will, but when I dive into her ocean I go where she flows.

So true!

I love your analogies, Darryl!

And my lover will say (after a long lovemaking session), "I know you're ready to have me out of there, but five more minutes...please"~~how can I say no to that?? lol~~it's usually duty calling (animals needing their food!) that decides when we're done...it's nice to be needed in all ways.

I always end up enjoying the "five more minutes" (it's never five more minutes!) and I know I benefit from not jumping out of bed when *I* think we're done.

5 more minutes

I have to say I've been guilty of the 5 more minutes plea except I'll "wag my tail" just a weeny teeny bit, if she responds then we're off again until she's done for sure. I mean, I'm in heaven and paradise with my goddess, how can I not want to drink her in just a few minutes more? You know, the huskies would do their version of 5 more minutes. They would be stopped in front of the sled just standing there and then they all would give a tug in unison just in the hopes that I would let them pull some more. Woof, Woof!

Sled dog

[quote=Darryl]So Sood, how old are you? Have you gone in for a prostate exam? s.[/quote]

I'm 58. No, I've never had a test. There are so many tests these days; rather than have them all, I prefer not to have any. My annual car check is enough stress for me. When it passes, I get a few months of relief, followed by a longer period of increasing concern that it won't pass next time around. And that's just a mechanical box.

I'm not overly concerned about my health. It's more a sense I have that there must be an ideal set up for males in terms of sexual excitation and ejaculation frequency. I'm not saying what I enjoyed for forty plus years was it. I just find myself wondering whether what I'm practicing now is better or worse.

I think I could settle into the life of a pull dog, so long as I got to pull often enough. We have a pair of huskies living round the corner, and all they ever get to pull is the leash of their harried owner. They've already broken half his bones with their over enthusiasm.

I like what you say about endings, and will certainly bear it in mind.

Thanks always Sood for

Thanks always Sood for sharing. After reading your journey for quite awhile now, I'm surprised you've reached the point you have, of not really caring so much about orgasms.

I agree, I think it would be great to learn to devote larger amounts of time to lovemaking, and make that explicit. Making love in the middle of the day has so many advantages - mostly, that both people are more energized and less tired. But I have noticed for myself, that when lovemaking happens in the middle of the day, which is usually more spontaneous, I need more to feel relaxed and comfortable. I need very clear boundaries set up between the lovemaking and the rest of what my day demands of me, the rest of what is waiting to be done. Women have a slower tempo and I think that creating a clear transition from "doing" mode to "receiving" mode takes more time in the middle of the day. I think that closed curtains or mood lighting, any little details to create the space for the woman to really receive, is more important at this time - and to ignore this means your woman is less likely to be fully present. Because we as women open ourselves in lovemaking, take things in, it's crucial that we are ready for that and that boundaries in space are made so that we know what it is we are opening to and what we are taking in. Otherwise there will always be a little holding back. Try to imagine having a vagina for a second!

I'm curious why your wife doesn't see her breasts as part of lovemaking anymore.

You strike me as quite the pragmatist. That's why your posts are so humorous. You're an adventuresome pragmatist, extremely self-observant, but I wonder if your desire to crack the karezza code might be getting in the way? The idea that there is a code, a formula, an explanation, a technique - would naturally require rigorous testing from a pragmatist. There's a sense I get from you that you won't be easily won over, tho you like to entertain an idea and see if it holds water. The implication is that if you are thorough enough, you will get to the bottom of it. You will isolate factors enough to make a definitive conclusion this or that way! And until you have that conclusion, you are very happy to continue the adventure. Perhaps that's the real issue there. You don't actually want the experiment to end. You're enough entertained by the karezza experiment to not settle on any findings definitively.

My sense is that the quality of my karezza experiences - how profound they are, or not - has very little to do with my lover. That sounds odd to say, but it really has to do with my own capacity to prioritize my ecstatic relationship with life, which is then mirrored in how I make love. A karezza technique alone does little except avoid the predictable biological drain you describe. But a karezza technique, used as an aperture to share the rich, ecstatic, spiritual inner life, is only consistently available if we are cultivating our own private rich, ecstatic, spiritual inner life. Yes, I think this is a spiritual practice. It has to do with my overall capacity for joy and wonder - which, at times, is compromised. I think that it is natural to use sex, whether conventional or karezza, as the place to come for that joy and wonder, to relish in that rich privacy with another. A sort of counterbalance to the mundane aspects of life. But the only way that sex is reliably rejuvenating, much less spiritually moving and blissful, is if we are willing to fully explore our true heart's desire in our whole life to be blissed out, to pay attention to that which blisses us out. I guess I am talking about sensuality. It takes slowness, presence, to really appreciate through the senses all that is available in life. And this capacity for presence is, I think the aperture, or space through which the channel of connectivity between lovers can meet, and then be amplified into more intense states of bliss. But the capacity starts out small, is not momentuous, does not catch one's attention. I feel like life has a consciousness, a beauty, but it works silently and is almost undetectable because it is so completely permeated through everything. The slightest speed or lack of attention, dissociation, makes this realm fade to the background. I think that things start to get really intersting, in life, in lovemaking, when what was in the background comes to the foreground and vice versa. The urge for orgasm goes to the background, the profound and innate pleasure and energy that comes from presence comes to the foreground. And this is a different kind of pleasure than the pleasure of anticipation. The beauty I see in my beloved is a different kind of beauty in presence than in desire. My affection for my husbands handsome form, the pleasure and anticipation that that brings me, the way I see him when I have not made love for days, is of a totally different quality than when I am making love to him without the goal of orgasm. When I am desiring him, I am overactive. It is like he is the object of my awareness, and my awareness has motives, which takes up space. He literally has less space. When I am making love to him in presence, it is like I am beholding him, receiving him, but his objectness is huge, it takes up space - and I must expand to contain him. When I behold him making love, I feel like I begin to perceive not only all that I know him to be, but even more than he knows himself to be, and he starts to become more himself, he starts to realize himself. This is hard to describe, but I think that this space is archetypal. That the beingness of him can be beheld to such an extent that through lovemaking, his positive potential is somehow activated. I believe this is the main reason why most people do not dare to try these practices. We are very safe, very afraid, very scientific, very cautious, very hard to convince, and very doubtful of our true capacity to be empowered, to actually hold the charge of our potential and do something with it. This is why most people rarely make love, I believe. And I think that orgasm is the ultimate panacea for this reason - it gives the illusion of power, and it holds the potential to power, but in choosing it, I feel that I opt out of amplification, and I opt out of becoming a greater manifestation of love. I opt for pleasure over loving. I opt for pleasure over being fully loved. I do so because I doubt my capacity to really embody love, to keep taking it in. I may take it in in doses, but at a certain point, if I cannot believe that I could be loved any more or love any more, I have an orgasm. This is a self-esteem issue. And maybe its only natural that we would learn this slowly. There is nothing wrong with me if I can only handle thirty minutes of being loved, fully cherished, if indeed that is what is happening. But if I can handle it for ten hours like Rachel, or if I can stop making love and then carry that energy forward, I can make love my whole life! We could say that it is possible to have an orgasm and still keep hold of that energy of love that was generated, but my sense is that once it has been dissipated, the ego got what it wanted, just enough to bolster itself up, but not enough to obliterate it completely. And so I can then get on with my life, telling myself the story that there are many more important things to do besides love. That now that I got my little piece of love I needed, I can focus on everything else that is so important. When really, it is important that all that we do is infused with love, and if not love, then at the very least - wonder and energy.

Pragmatism

Thanks for dropping by, Hotspring. It's always a pleasure to read your posts.

You've certainly got a point about me enjoying the journey so much there would be nothing left to analyse if I ever 'arrived' at a destination. Not that there is any destination, although I feel I am only making slow progress towards realising this. The hardest thing nowadays isn't doing without orgasm (which is no more difficult than doing without chocolate) but giving up my desire - certainly a need, almost a compulsion - to 'satisfy' my wife. This used to take the form of ensuring she had an orgasm; but if that isn't on the cards, it seems to have been replaced by making sure she has a 'good time'. So, my attention, rather than being on me, is on her response to whatever I'm doing. If I sense she isn't as euphoric as she could be, I might 'do' something else. It strikes me that virtually everything I do when lovemaking is done to create an effect in her. So, there's a long way to go for me to be able to say I am attending primarily to myself.

Maybe the reason it's taking me so long to adopt Karezza is that I was never truly dissatisfied with the goal scoring version of lovemaking. What did distress me, though, was its brevity. Not just the short lived orgasm, but the relatively short lived preamble, too. That was what put me in the market for so many books on extended, expanded, whole body orgasm. The trouble was, they all required me following strenuous, detailed strategies and practising techniques that I could barely remember, never mind put into action, when it came to actual lovemaking. The beauty of Karezza is that there are no techniques, as such. There seems to be a complete reliance on a deeper wisdom that will arise of its own accord if we simply get out of our own way. Getting out of my own way is, I've found, far harder than it sounds.

Basically, when it happens, the urge for orgasm fades into the background, and, as you put it "the profound and innate pleasure and energy that comes from presence comes to the foreground".

The way my state can change from awareness of nothing but a primal sexual urge to floating in formless bliss, all in a short space of time, astounds me. The trouble is, when I drift into the bliss state, the drop in intensity tends to worry me, so I ramp things up slightly, which leads to the bliss becoming diluted. Before long, the pendulum has swung over to the sexual urge feeling, and the bliss disappears. A little later, as the urge dies down agan, the bliss reappears, closely followed by worry; and so the cycle continues. 

The fear of what I run the risk of losing as the urge becomes lost in the mist of bliss is difficult to pinpoint. Possibly, it's linked to my perceived need to gratify my wife. I feel like my attention to her is lapsing, and requires a kick start. Of course, for all I know she might be experiencing bliss too; and it might be precisely because I have momentarily taken my foot off the accelerator. Maybe I should get into the habit of asking her how she is, when I'm not trying to impress her! This bliss doesn't seem like ecstasy, though. It's like a taster for it, that I never stay with long enough to receive full benefit.

I'm trying to encourage my wife to get inside her own breasts, sexually speaking, but she has a strong belief they have outlived their primary purpose - suckling babies - and are now more or less redundant. In her view, external attention paid to the breasts stimulates the suckling reflex which, because there is no baby to satisfy, only confuses the body. It would require a major suspension of disbelief on her part to be open to cultivating any breast awareness that was not based on such fear of over stimulation. 

She does concede there is a link between her breasts and her vagina, and she's not averse to breast stimulation in the throes of lovemaking; but as a means of arousal, at the moment, it's a non starter.

trying too hard to gratify your partner?

I was thinking of this issue with my own journey and it may have some relevance.

We can't know what the other person is feeling or experiencing. I realized that I have become too concerned about my partner's arousal and feelings at the moment when we have intercourse, and this is pretty much exactly like "conventional" sex felt like.

I think this may be the key for me -- just focusing internally and on the energy flow and not thinking of my partner. When we're trying to make sure our partner is somewhere, we aren't in our bodies anymore.

My wife says she doesn't have much sensation from my penis in her vagina. But she has some. And sometimes more than other times. Progress is being made. I think it's a matter of presence awareness and most of all the role of her breasts.

She is still very breast defensive but more interested and I think she realizes that this could be a big help. This stuff all takes time, as you have told me in the past.

 

Attention

I think where and how we place our attention is a very interesting subject. It's such a fundanmental aspect of our behaviour. Attention precedes action, but also exists without it. We're always paying attention to something, our attention is always somewhere, and if we can harness it and direct it where we want rather than where it has chanced to fall, surprising things may happen.

Noticing what my attention is doing during lovemaking has been something of an eyeopener. This has changed over the years. It began with me just wanting to get off. It then extended to trying to get my wife off. From there, it evolved to trying to get us both off at the same time. Then it concentrated on trying to lengthen the time it took to get us both off, and also lengthen the time spent in the 'off' part.

All this required the continuous toing and froing of my attention from me, to my wife, back to me, then back to her. My intentions were good and so was the outcome, at least often enough to make this seem a viable path. When all went well, my attention would eventually settle down into a sort of simultaneous state of even handed awareness, where our bodies writhed as one.

Then, I started shunning orgasm, and that required lots of attention on me, but I was still fully committed to attending to my wife, too, largely to ensure she either had an orgasm, or didn't get bored because she wasn't having one. I think I'm still at this point. Actually, I've gone beyiond it, but in the wrong direction. I don't need to attend to myself so much anymore because the desire for orgasm is not rearing its head anything like as strongly as it did, so I find I've started concentrating on 'pleasing' my wife with my non ejaculatory prowess. 

I'm rapidly realising this is a mistake. It's getting my wife heated up, and I'm ignoring what's going on in me, apart from the obvious current of pleasure I'm swimming along on. I feel I need to pay more attention to my deeper levels; and that any attention I pay to my wife ought to be more of the non contact sort. Ideally, we would engage physically, and do whatever we do with the sort of dual attentiveness that is appropriate for mutual contact; then I would pay attention to me, specifically staying relaxed, while fulfilling my part in the circling of energy between us. 

This sounds so simple, it surprises me it's so hard to do. 

ah ha!

Yes, I think you are on the right path, Sood! If you were still attending to her, then your focus was off yourself which also means your wife is not going to feel you sending *your* energy through her.

I guess I mean that you are

I guess I mean that you are actually more of an adventurer than a pragmatist, but maybe when writing, you revert to more of the pragmatist when you're trying to make sense of your experience.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be a man and try to please a woman, must be quite difficult to orchestrate everything, as you mention. This issue of where we place our attention is really important, and each situation is so different. Desiring can only be for what you don't have, and its fun to anticipate, but I think the presence in desire shifts from what is happening in the moment to what could happen. Two totally different circuits and, probably, neurochemical coctails. I guess the challenge is to move from the desire and the anticipation, recognize it, and bring the attention to what is happening rather than what is about to happen (ie, orgasm). I really think this all has to do with space. If I am focused mostly on my lover, my awareness can be constricted. If I am focused on our genitals, my awareness can be constricted. If I am focused on myself, my awareness can be constricted. On the other hand, the genitals, my lover, my body - all are huge expansive universes unto themselves! Maybe the difference in whether or not attention is constrictive or not has to do with the motivation behind the attention. If we are motivated to have our bodies perform, our genitals perform, our lovers perform, we will find our selves more like machines than intergalactic archetypal embodiments of divine bliss. So it's not just where the attention is placed, but the quality of the attention, the motivation behind the attention. I find it is useful to find the boundary or edge, then move back an inch and try to listen to the shapeness of that, find the edge of the shape and how it want's to express itself. So find the lover, then back off a bit, find the sense in the genitals, and back off a bit, find your own body, and back out a level further around it.

None of these are "right" or "wrong", they are just different scales of dimensionality. I think it makes sense that as we have the drive to make love, the awarenss starts in the genitals, then pendulates back and forth between the beloved and the self. If the awareness remains stuck in the genitals, on the self or the beloved, it feels more mechanistic and like the potential is somehow narrowed. The free flow of the awareness is natural and healthy!

I agree with Rachel tho - on the scale of feeling whole bodies, the ability to stay in one's own body leads to more connection - for how could your lover connect to you or feel you if your attention is placed on them? In fact, placing too much attention on the woman might actually make it less likely for her to orgasm (be pleased). She will feel the pressure to perform, and this will either make her retract or perform. She might not know that she would be more pleased in another way because this is what she is used to, in other words, she has been programmed to be the center of attention and so removing the attention from her might feel disconcerting even while it has the potential to give her more space. That's the most serious problem in karezza, I think. It's the problem that any awareness practice is not fresh, because its always being contrasted with the other program. And no matter how profound or spacious a different approach COULD be, the transition from one program to another can feel quite awkward because the old programming is still telling us why and how this new program is wrong. The old program doesn't want to die. And many people may think that their experience of breaking out of the old program is what the new program is like, but we haven't really fully experienced the new program yet. The old one has to die fully to experience the new one fully, because they are contradictory. So we end up feeling a bit of both, and the results are anything but consistent.

It's the same with bodywork. If I as a massage therapist focus too much on the client, they can and usually will perform. They will try to please me, but to the detriment of their own therapeutic benefit. That is why, in the craniosacral approach to bodywork, we as bodyworkers focus on our own felt sense of embodiment and hold that awareness while giving a session, because it is our own body that is sensing what is going on with the other person. How could we be effective in sensing what they need if we have moved our attention away from our most sensitive instument, our body?

As you mention, there are those moments when the bodies move together as one body, and this is a mysterious and magical state of being that can happen in conventional lovemaking, karezza, and even without sex. One of the most powerful experiences of the microcosmic orbit synchronization that I have ever felt happened when I was embracing my lover in a bathtub under the stars, but we weren't having sex (we WERE making love though). There's a circuitry which is opened and activated under very certain conditions, and requires a lot of presence. Maybe that's one reason why karezza can be more conducive to these states, simply because the future goal or expectation of orgasm is removed, allowing the natural intelligence of the bodies to come to the foreground. But as you point out, if this removal of the goal is so novel, or if we are somehow preoccupied with when to end or whether or not the other partner is bored, then we have replaced one distraction with another. So the fundamental issue here is not sexual technique but the ability to be fully present (mental health).

I think that the ability to be present is synonymous with the ability to have a felt sense of the body three-dimensionally, and to be able to be consciously aware of where the body is in relation to other objects, bodies, and the environment - as they move and change. What I've learned from studying craniosacral therapy is that our nervous system gets fragmented and distracted very very easily. It is highly attuned to any disturbance, and it gets disturbed. Any change in the environment is sensed, assessed, and then managed. This can be very problematic if we want to be able to sustain a suspended and even state of continuous presence. Most human beings cannot even meditate alone in a silent room and go a few seconds without being distracted by their own minds, much less sustain this with another human being. But the glimpses that we do get into this realm, which is truly magical, make it worthwhile to try to get a sense for what these altered states are really made of, how they emerge.

I think we're basically talking about a trance state when we talk about bliss states. It is an altered state. Trances can be induced. That sounds very manipulative and not so very in line with the open approach of karezza, but when you think about it, all of the practices of karezza - the light petting and reassuring touch, the slowness, the atmosphere, the amount of time devoted - all are more conducive to getting in a trance state. I think that the trance state is a state of nonduality, in which the nervous system (which thinks in dualities), can finally recede, because all of the conditions for safety have been established.

The part of the brain that can hold paradox and multiple sensations in a seamless experience without getting distracted (ie, not having to "manage" anything), is the medial prefrontal cortex. It's what get's activated when people meditate. I would guess that if people in a bliss state making love were monitored, we would see a lot of activity there. And this trance state absolutely can be induced, in oneself. There's no need to learn how to induce someone else other than to provide a safe environment and then to self-induce, because a biological system that is dysregulated (ie, stressed), will naturally attune to and synchronize with a slowed-down and regulated system (unless the amygdyla has been damaged early on in childhood and the person cannot read safe contexts as safe).

So, my sense of it is that we need to provide the time, the comfort, the safe space, and the oxytocin building behaviors to set the scene for the beloved, but the rest of the trance state is self-induced. We come into our body, we slow down, we focus on our breathing, we attune to our sense of ourselves as a whole, we allow our awareness to take in the full sensuality of the room, the space in the room, the nature the building sits in. Once we get really tuned in to our body and environment, really stabilized in space and in a fluid awareness, fully present, then a stillpoint can arise. Out of a stillpoint, synchronization can arise (between lovers or even between a person and their environment). Stillpoints by nature crack open - out of them pours dynamic movement and intrinsic potency, which is intelligent. This intrinsic potency is the background that is ordering space and matter in every moment. We are usually dysfunctional to the extent that we focus on form rather than spaciousess, and our sharp awareness does not leave any room for this intelligence to pour through or come to the foreground, so it is forever instead hard at work in the background, totally beneath our radar, but making the world function nevertheless.

In the context of this happening with a lover, the stillness while making love becomes an aperture for this intelligence to emerge. This intelligence has the space to permeate every cell of the lovers, and to direct them in the art of loving. It can do this because they have reached a state of nondual awareness, in which their nervous systems are not avoiding or seeking, just openly experiencing. I would call this love. I think that love is the intelligence that pours out of a neutral. I don't think we can experience love without getting to neutral. The neutral is not boring in the least. The neutral is just a space, a place that is unmanaged, and so is amplified by the innate coherence of the universe as it does what it knows how to do: create with unerring potency. As I have felt this, it seems in this state that I am completely in tune with my own body and my lover's at once, and that I know exactly how to move, how much to move, and where to place my awareness in my body to meet my lover but not to overexcite him. I can sense how far out in space I need to place my awareness to give him the space that he needs to be received. If his arousal gets higher, my awareness of my body must get much bigger. I am still in my body but my awareness of my presence of my body goes further out of my body.

Yes, spaciousness. I must give myself and my lover the room, the space, to have a real encounter with love. And to see what love has in store for me and my husband. And to see what love will make of us. To become beings made of clay - becoming more malleable. Softening. Opening. Listening. Out of the deepest listening, there comes a sudden, deep breath! And we start to remember refreshment, we start to become resuscitated. By life itself!

wonderful intelligence here

The trance state is always self induced. And if we can't induce it in ourselves we aren't really doing the dance, are we? That's the feeling I've gotten. When I started Karezza I was really in my own body. Lately, my attention has drifted away from that and to my wife's body in a way that denies the attention and presence. It's a dance over time, actually...attention moving here and there...what amazes me is how complex and nuanced this journey is.

Yes. As with any form of

Yes. As with any form of intelligence, if it is not lived, it is not really known. That is the mystery behind intelligence: it needs embodiment (bodies) to express itself, but because the intelligence expresses itself through form, we forget that the real intelligence is emptiness. Or the dance between emptiness and form. The ability to surrender to that paradox. To not ever need to figure it out. Instead, to become it, to know it through experience, and to suspend our sense of fear enough to discover our true nature, which is Love. Very risky business indeed!

Nondual awareness

This level of awareness you're talking about ("their nervous systems are not avoiding or seeking, just openly experiencing") I feel I know well, though it doesn't happen that often. I know it from lovemaking, but also from a myriad of other activities. For me, it is when 'I' no longer direct my attention - 'it' directs itself. This isn't the same as unconscious direction, which is what happens most of the time, where I'm at the mercy of my hidden self. Nor is it conscious direction, where I've become the coordinator of events, deciding how and where to place my attention. It's something else. It feels to me more like the direction of my true consciousness, coming about from bringing unconscious instinct under some form of conscious control. 

The great thing about this is there's no need to concern myself with 'what comes next'. The right thing does itself. When this happens, it's marvellous; and when it happens wth someone else, and you know they are experiencing it too, it's beyond words.

They key to getting to this state seems to do with both thought and time. Active thinking - 'should I do this', 'maybe I'll try that', or, worse, 'I wish I was doing something else' - only gets in the way. Even positive thoughts - 'hey, this is great', 'let's hope I can keep it going' - prevent the sort of unqualified appreciation that has its own inbuilt tendency towards continuation and completion. It's only when thinking stops that I can acknowledge some deeper part of me has taken over.

I do think this needs time, in most circumstances. I used to experience the process when playing tennis. Initially, I would be hitting the ball, with my mind all over the place. Gradually, I would become more centred, more aware of myself. After a time, if it went well, it was as if 'I' dissolved, leaving a greater 'me', often playing out of my skin. 

The way I remember getting 'centred' was either through breath awareness or 'keeping my eye on the ball'. The latter was like a visual mantra; I just kept coming back to it, again and again, until I no longer needed to. So, I went from my attention and awareness being unconsciously directed (the ball led me) to me directing them (I led the ball) and then to them directing themselves (the ball became an extension of me) - which is when the magic started to happen.

With conventional lovemaking, I found this process relatively easy. Sex has the amazing advantage of knocking out everything else competing for space in my mind. So, I would start fairly focused, become more so after a short passage of time, and before too long find myself 'in the zone'. What I mean by this is, I was present, but present with a purpose. With Karezza, it's trickier, as that purpose - orgasm - isn't there. My mind isn't as empty of thoughts, because the tongue hanging out urgency of orgasmic pursuit isn't strong enough to fill the space. So, I need to pay attention to something else. I have found it difficult to know how to do this. As I mentioned, I paid attention to myself, initially, to help guard against the lure of orgasm; but later on I found I was predominantly focusing on my wife, and how I thought she was, or wasn't, doing, and making adjustments, accordingly.

Ideally, I would like to be able to pay attention to my body, and how it feels up against hers, for long enough to experience changes taking place without me having perceived the need for them, or done anything  to bring them about. That would give me confidence I am on the right track.

there are lots of things

to focus on.

The third eye, the solar plexus, the root of the penis. I find the root of the penis quite challenging as it brings up the pleasure into my full body. I am a novice at it and got somewhat sidetracked but I'm back at it. What fun. And the better I connect with my body the better I think it is for my wife, because I'm not holding her to expectations that are solely mine.

 

Focus

[quote=emerson]The third eye, the solar plexus, the root of the penis. [/quote]

I've never been great at focusing on parts of my body, unless something is already happening there. I can manage the root of the penis, during intercourse; and I have sensed unusual stirrings radiating out from that area; but I'm easily distracted, so it never lasts long.

The hardest thing of all is to relax while doing this. I have no difficulty relaxing in general; it just seems so counter intuitive during sex, as if I'm drawing away from my partner, rather than towards her.

I understand

It does feel counter-intuitive, but in the end, it works out wonderfully.

When I first met my lover (before we discovered karezza), he would say to me, "Use me to make yourself feel good" and back then, I thought that sounded somewhat selfish. I thought making love was all about making the "other" feel good.

But what happens when you both focus on your own bodies is you are then able to send that energy through the other person and *that* is when you start to feel like two souls fused (and the sending is not a purposeful action~~it happens naturally when you are meditating on the polarities). I get the most wonderful vibrations from him when he is really concentrating on his penis and letting his energy flow through it. And he feels so good when I open, relax, and let my love circle through my body and out my breasts.

You have to let go and trust that it will work out okay if you relax and go inside yourself. Just try it once and let her know you are going to do it. See what happens!

us guys experience this all the time

We wake up super relaxed and erect pretty often. That's what led me to see how we can be relaxed and aroused because it happens all the time.

When I've read Richardson's books, I've wondered how they can talk about sex as being so cool. I like it warmer than that, but the super relaxed state can still be a highly erotic zone. Maybe more erotic for that matter than the super excited state. I"m playing with this.

Hot, warm, cool

[quote=emerson]When I've read Richardson's books, I've wondered how they can talk about sex as being so cool. I like it warmer than that, but the super relaxed state can still be a highly erotic zone. Maybe more erotic for that matter than the super excited state. I"m playing with this.[/quote]

One of the early Karezza books I read was by Stanley Bass. I got the impression he was much more enthusiastic about staying hot, or at least warm, than becoming cool; but maybe I need to retread it. The Richardson books emphasise coolness at all times. I like stillness, and relaxation, but I associate them with non sexual cuddling, hugging, dozing or sleeping. I'm finding it hard to move from there towards something more sexually charged without corresponding physical movement. There's nothing wrong with movement oriented Karezza, but I would like to experience the energy everyone talks about which seems to flow best - or at least become most easily recognisable - the less movement there is.

It's all enjoyable, though. Including the orgasms that come along from time to time.

i find arousal pretty nice

I read the Bass book about 4 months ago and he definitely is all about what I would term edging type intercourse. Staying away from orgasm but coming awfully close. That is what has in me brought about blue balls when I first started. And it wasn't as gratifying really as what I am doing now.

But, Bass does have some good advice for men. Which is, quite clinically, minimizing movement at times, or making it more side to side, which does not move us to orgasm, and when our arousal is flagging, to do more in and out movement. That is a good idea at least to start with. Sometimes I go in and am very still, and just am, just this timeless state of being and joining, with nothing else. Then at some point some movement seems to be in order.

But as far as cuddling-to-intercourse, I had some difficulty transitioning from cuddling to sex this way. But these days I find that arousal happens naturally when I cuddle anyway. If sex is on the table then we cuddle and I get aroused and we start sex. If sex is not on the table, usually (not always) I get a bit aroused anyway.

So for me it's a natural transition when sex is on the table. I'm not sure it is for my wife, in fact it probably isn't, but that's where I am right now.

Lately I've felt 100% good about cuddling without sex even if I get aroused. I'm really happy about this because I am no longer feeling needy and it feels wonderful not to have disappointment if we don't have sex.

For us

I have never thought of what we do as being "cool"~~inside, it feels very hot, but I suppose if you were to look at our bodies from above, it wouldn't look like we were doing much.

Once you are both engaged and focused, I think you'll find that every movement feels 100% bigger than it really is, at least that has been our experience.

And my lover's penis seems to find a state where it is not really stiff hard, but bendable and snakelike, and that is when he can best curve around up into the "garden of love" area and that is where it feels really "hot" (this all comes from feeling, not from movement). It's the energy exchange that causes the heat.

Honestly, we sweat and groan and moan and all that fun stuff, lol~~but there just isn't a lot of outward movement...all the good stuff is happening inside.

This probably makes no sense, but it's the best way I can describe it!

this was my experience this morning

This morning Sparkles got me and we fooled around for a bit and then I went in. I focused really on my own feelings and didn't worry about her arousal. I just had a wonderful time. I focused on the penis root and relaxing that and it felt like I pulled a lot of feelings in through my penis root up into my whole body, and and for a bit it just felt incredible, a whole body feeling of pleasure and I could at that point for awhile feel the energy emanating from her breasts.

I can only imagine how it will be when/if her arousal wakes up and she becomes more breast conscious. But whatever. This is the here and now and that's what I want -- I want what is.

So that's my experiment from this morning. I have yet to ask her how she felt about it. But for me it was amazing and it was NOT focusing on her arousal and going inside me that really helped.

Hmm, yeah, this rings true

Hmm, yeah, this rings true for me too. I just went on a long road bike ride with my husband for his 25th birthday, uphill climb for about an hour and a half. It always strikes me that there are signals coming from my body - tiredness, discomfort, that my mind tries to manage, usually by trying to get out of doing it. There is no directive in the sensation, it's the mind that interprets the sensation and tries to manage. So there's the level of the nervous system, then the mind. But beneath that another layer. A complete capability and willingness to just keep going. I think it's more than the endorphin high. I think there's a huge level of potential, presence, and functionality that is usually not really on our radar except in certain circumstances. Maybe when we train in sports, or in meditation, we start to listen to those little voices of ego less, the ones that want to manage our experience - mostly because they want to avoid getting obliterated. Since sex has so much potential to reorganize us, it makes sense our egos (here I mean that part of ourselves that is always "managing", or reacting, or acting) flare up more during sex too.

Your own observations about being in the zone playing tennis remind me of a book I am reading, called "Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance". In this book, James Oschmann gives an anecdote by Denise Parker, a teenage archery prodigy, who said, "I don't know what happened. I wasn't concentrating or anything. It didn't feel like I was shooting my shots, but like they were shooting themselves. I try to remember what happened so I can get back to that place, but when I try to understand it, I only get confused. It's like thinking how the world began."

Not thinking seems to be the key. There's a sweet spot when we stop trying to manage through thoughts, which allows a space for a far more superior intelligence to work through us.

When she says, "It's like thinking how the world began", I see this as a clue. The Buddhists call it the Kunzi, or Base intelligence. It's like what I would call Source. So it's not just about where we place our attention. It's about the fact that how and where we place our attention affects to what extent a consciousness that is already realized is realizing itself through our attention - through where we place it and whether we can sustain it.

I would describe Source as a radiating, potent, organizing and disorganizing light that permeates all form - gives rise to form and also dissolves form. In the south-american medicine song circles I have participated in, it has become clear to me that the really only useful skill I need to develop in order to be fully permeated by this all-encompassing intelligence, is to fully surrender. That sounds cliche, we've all heard it before. Surrendering is seemingly the opposite of "managing" something or someone. But its not quite that simple. As soon as I surrender one level of holding, of identification, another comes up. The ability to manage my attention is key, since being present in a seamless way with my hangups, being willing to see them, being willing to watch them dissolve, seems to depend on my ability to manage my attention and to not "space out" (or dissociate) - (and this is DISTINCTLY different than the managing that the ego does, which always works hard at solidifying). The real reorganization seems to happen when I am alert enough (but not too sharp in my focus) to behold both the intelligence at work as it dissolves, my attachment and sticking point, and the place between them that is being "worked on." The only thing I have to do is keep my attention fresh at hand and be willing for this work to happen. When I gain an insight into what this intelligence wants me to do, I surrender to this and then the intelligence has more space to do what it needs, if I am choosing to be present in witnessing it (keeping my attention on it).

So it seems like it has something to do with trusting the intelligence, bringing the attention to the part that is newly emerging, bringing the attention there in a loose way, and staying present with what is changing with a seamless awareness as it changes, making adjustments within oneself that are prompted by this intelligence. It's a sort of deep listening maybe. A deep alertness mixed with a fundamental willingness to transform and move into new territory.

I can make observations about how this has felt for me while journeying with medicine or with a lover or while biking, but the "spark" or the access point that helps me to get into that space is maybe the bigger question. With medicina, the access point is the dietary preparation, spiritual preparation, and clarifying what your intentions are (the practice) in coming into contact with the spirit of the plants. With the lover, I think that the access point is actually the practice of nurturing one's own intimate relationship with life, cultivating my own ecstatic capacity by doing those things that rejuvenate me, so that I can bring this spirit of nourishment with me to my lover (the practice). With sports, getting in the zone gets easier and easier the more you play, because your ego gets used to being in the background, and the instinctive intelligence of the body being in the foreground.

Practice . . . . practicing realizing that I actually HAVE a spirit. It is amazing how much the seeming importance of "managing" my life seems to drown out this basic realization (the realization that actually, something else is managing too). By saying I have a spirit maybe what I am really saying is that I have a Source, a Center. That infinite potential, energy, and intelligence can pour through this center. That this Center knows what to do. But cannot do as much if I am not in touch with it.

I'm also interested in how this all fits into how effective organizations are. I'm really excited to be learning more about "Presencing" through Otto Scharmer, a German systems theorist whose father was a pioneer in biodynamic farming. It seems this ability to be present with what is emerging is a key skill for effective organizations, too. And as usual, the parts of organizations that need dissolving are sortov similar to those on a personal level that need dissolving within our intimate relationships.

Here are two clips that I think are relevant, seemingly a bit abstract but really right on point!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMPOf4iMDe8&feature=player_embedded#at=70

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9ObTXFqP0&feature=player_embedded

So beautiful~

I loved reading this, Hotspring. You have such a magical way with words~

(and just to be clear in case anyone may have misinterpreted what I meant, when I said my lover and I spent 10 hours making love, that was not all at once, but spread out over 4-5 sessions during a 48-hour period!)

But I concur, you lovely

But I concur, you lovely silver fox! I am sure that in the spaciousness between the physical connection, you were likely making love still, otherwise there would have been no impetus to rejoin. So - I imagine that while shovelling manure or feeding the horses, the current between you pulsed with Love!

Thank you~

And you are right, Hotspring...we are making love the entire time. My body stays open to him and is ready to connect when the opportunity makes itself available. This is one of the biggest changes I have noticed in myself through karezza. In the past, when sex was over, I shut down and closed myself off. As if there were a switch that had to be activated in order for me to participate in sex. Over time, the switch just broke.

Now the switch is always on and I love it.