Back to old habits (or even worse)

Submitted by strawberry field on
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Hi there,

it´s been a long time since I wrote - this is because my life happened outside the internet the last few months. Often I realized how different types of addiction were present in my or other peoples life, mostly the addiction to media.

I began to meditate a lot which gave me a broadening of the mind - this is something I simply realized and nothing that my ego want´s to shout out - and it´s not pleasant in all ways. I can see how my boyfriend is not present during sex and how strong he just want´s to achieve the goal. Somehow I lost him and the connection during sex. When we first tried slow and long sex he liked it and we had some very intimate moments (although he came most of the times) - but then I made the mistake to initiate passionate sex and since then I wasn´t able to lead him back to more present and slow sex. Whenever I try I have the feeling I do not satisfy him and he just waits until it finally starts to get hotter. I have the feeling he finds it boring and wants to go faster - it´s a fight where I try to slow down and he tries to speed up (through movement).

Also I think he doesn´t have sex with me because he desires my body and soul but because he is horny (which is a feeling all women know, I think). He is so not present I lost my lust to sleep with him. It´s like he has "won" because we do it "his way" - but on the other side: if we did it "my way" maybe HE would feel forced. Maybe he felt forced and began to work against it.

We had some days without sex and without the pressure to "do the right thing" and with much cuddling and it felt really nice and relaxing. When I asked him he said he didn´t want to get on my nerves so he didn´t initiate anything. It felt like I had "forbidden" to sleep with me and as if he had to "fight" for his fuck and take it whenever he can, stealing it from me. I mean, isn´t he able to seduce me, to convince me instead of begging or stealing? I don´t seduce him anymore because all I get from him is his fight for "faster".

What I also have learned is: fighting is very close to sex. I had an eye on it and recognized that the fights came always after sex or because of sex. The fights after sex didn´t have sex as an issue but anything else. When he had our cuddling time these few days there was no fighting at all.

At the moment I don´t know what to do. Being present myself, breathing slowly, moving slowly doesn´t help anymore to calm him down or it feels like forcing him. I don´t know if it´s good to force him to calm down "for his own end". But it´s not very helpful as well when I don´t want to sleep with him because we do it his way. Neither for him nor for me.

Sometimes I think one has to be very convinced of karezza (or similar ways of making love) to not want to go for more passion. It simply doesn´t sound right the first time and also the whole world of media sells "passion". Sometimes I think he simply is not as developed as I am and this is not the right time. He is 5 years younger than me and maybe I demand to much from this young boy. Maybe he simply has a "bad lover" - phase (yes I know it´s mean).

Any suggestions?

Topic:

Comments

It's hard for someone to accept

a period of "doldrums" during the transition from hot sex to warm sex. It's normal for them to feel bored, restless, as if they're needs aren't being met, etc.

I can think of two options. The first is to do a structured 3-week program like the Exchanges. Anyone can manage something different for 3 weeks, and often it only takes that long for a brain to return to enough sensitivity to enjoy warm sex. (The exception seems to be people who are desensitized by too frequent porn use or masturbation.)

The other option is to find a way to help him get educated. He can either read Karezza Korner accounts, or our book, which explains how perception can be altered during the post-O phase.

It's so easy to slip back down the slope because the brain is set up to do just that. So, whatever happens, don't take it personally. Hold a strong vision of where you want to end up and allow the pieces to move without trying to force things.

Thanks for your reply

I should read the last chapters of your book finally - many of my questions wouldn´t be necessary. I-m so happy

But one more question I do have: Can we start the Exchanges without having no orgasm 3 weeks before? I mean, it´s 6 weeks of no orgasm, I cannot imagine I can sell that to him. I "sold" him a book about tantra and sexual energy and this seemed to have an effect but by the time that effect decreased as I described in my former post.
What I could imagine is: We do the Exchanges, he realizes how nice it is to do it that way and decides on his own to do karezza. I don´t know.

Btw.: I noticed, my boyfriend is irritable after orgasm and he offends me very easily. It´s not that I changed (especially when I didn´t have an orgasm) but he finds me more annoying. We then begin discussions which I find unnecessary and want to end but that makes him only angrier. What works most of the time is to make a nice joke, stay calm and tell him I feel sorry if he feels like that.

Sure

Just know that you'll be dealing with "fallout brain" for the first two weeks after your last orgasm. Just observe without taking it too seriously.

Good luck!

Oh...yes

I didn´t see this obvious solution. Wink

He didn´t read the article you linked because he once told me I may be a little too "into it" and this article would have been another thing to make him feel pressured. I guess it´s not his theory yet and I think I screwed up a bit the introduction. But he liked the energy - things described in Diana Richardsons books.

We do it the same

so I wondered why it didn´t work so well. Maybe we didn´t cuddle enough. I think it came gradually and it began with the feeling that he "uses" me...what a cliché. I am afraid to cuddle because he might see it as an invitation to "use" me. Maybe this is all just my paranoia. Once I said to him he shouldn´t sleep with me if he doesn´t desire my body and soul and just wants to be freed of his semen and he said it wasn´t like that for him and it must have been my own subjective experience without any appropriate purpose on his side. So why did it feel like that? Maybe he lost his sensitiveness...or I am paranoid.

this is a great point

1. Woman and man say "let's cuddle"

2. Man's natural reaction inside is "let's cuddle and maybe one thing will lead to another...and we'll have SEX"

3. Woman and man cuddle

4. Man gets an erection and becomes aroused in general...sure enough, all he wants is SEX

5. Woman doesn't want to turn down her man. He hasn't said "can I put it in" but his body shows that's what he wants. Woman hates to say no to man. 

this happens to me all the time. But you know what? We just cuddle anyway and I'm very happy about it.

My body may be saying "let's fuck" and my brain may say that too...but we still "just" cuddle and it's great.

The more we cuddle the easier it gets to get huge pleasure out of "just" cuddling, by the way. It takes months to really get into it but sometimes the pleasure from cuddling is so great that intercourse almost seems like it would be an annoyance at that moment.

So, the real issue is, you don't like turning him down. Well, get over it. It is a belief you have inside like:

you have to do what men want if you want to keep them

men just want to use me for sex

if he has sex with me and enjoys it so much it's because he's fixing a need rather than because he loves me

And so forth.

Those are beliefs that really hurt.

My suggest is to buy and read this book

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mind-Made-Prison-Transformation-ebook/dp/B006P...

It can help you re-think these beliefs real quick and it is SO transformative.

 

Great book

and great post. You have a gift for getting to the heart of the matter. Thanks for the book tip; I bought it and have started reading. Love it.

Here is a belief I just identified, and need to change

Woman is power tripping because the decision about sex is always up to her, and never up to me.

I now understand that the decision is up to her, and should be up to her. I can express what I'm feeling and what I want, but she is the one who gets penetrated during sex, so it's ultimately up to her.

The part I'm still struggling with is continuously catching myself trying to make sex happen, even when I think I'm not. I know this behavior is counterproductive and erodes trust, so I don't want to do it; ever. I think there are a number of beliefs knocking around in there about needing sex to feel loved or some such thing. Perhaps if I can isolate the key beliefs around that, then it might be easier for me to just trust that sex will happen naturally when she wants it to, and I can find other ways to feel love even when she is being bitchy to me, rejecting my touch and such.

excerpt from "Why Women Close Down"

On this website,Janet McGeever offers a free download of an article, "WHY WOMEN CLOSE DOWN and How to Open up Again."

I read it and found it uncomfortably close to home - made me conscious of things I'd never thought of before.

http://www.theconsciousheart.com/

Scroll down on the right to find the link - good read for both women and the men who want to love them. <3
I put the link for you to download your copy so that she gets credit for her work.

Shannon

Thanks for your link

there are some things I´ve already known but forgotten over the course of time. I think the greatest mistake I make is saying "yes" while my body says "no". How can I say "no" when he has waited for a few days...he is so intrusive and I think he takes it personally when I don´t want to sleep with him (most of the times I don´t want to sleep with him because he asks in the middle of the night and I am very tired). Some days ago I said to him "let´s do it in the morning, ok?" because I was so tired - and this was the first time in over 3 years I told him I don´t want it now - and when I asked him to come over cuddling he answered "no, let´s do it in the morning"...as a kind of "joke". He couldn´t just simply accept it and say nothing.

The other thing is: I don´t say "no" because I don´t want him to masturbate instead - it really makes me feel excluded and as an object, he can use or not...if this "object" is "temporary out of order" he finds some alternatives - no, he doesn´t need me but sometimes I am useful.
Also I don´t want him to masturbate while I am lying besides him because...well...it makes noise and I cannot sleep when there is noise.

I cannot forbid masturbation (though I think it might be possible not to do it when I am around) but I really feel pressured to have sex with him because of the possibility that he might begin to masturbate. In the past I liked it when he began because I could join in but now I find it selfish, excluding and disconnecting...and even degrading for the one lying next.

I don´t know how to say "no" when I don´t like the possible consequences. I am not "free" to say "no". It´s not that I say "no" and it´s accepted...he doesn´t say "ok, alright". There are always some hidden consequences.
I am not free to say "no" because maybe he would go and search for a woman who says "yes". And today the world is full of "yes, pleeease" - saying bitches (sorry).

When he doesn´t want to have sex and I do I don´t pressure him...I simply bear it. There must have been times when a man just waited until his "lady" was ready and open for him, a time when a man was happy just to hold her hands - but those times seem to be over. Women have to give all at once...and more, be a sex-monster.

Once he said to me: You have to quit sleeping with me when you don´t want to....I don´t know how.

Sorry to put my garbage in here but it fits to the link you gave me....seems it started rolling something...

*sigh*

At times like this, I wish I had a magic wand. You two need a reset. I'll ask Maso if he has any tips for you. He's your age and can give you the male perspective.

No apology needed

Your story is quite interesting to me. Our situations are similar in that we both want karezza while our partners want something else. My wife still finds karezza boring. She has a low sex drive, so she rarely initiates sex, but when we do karezza, she would like me to orgasm. As far as I can tell, she enjoys the feeling of me orgasming, and she has a feeling of accomplishment if I do. When we do karezza without orgasm, she feels like "what's the point?"

Thank heavens she never forbade me to masturbate. I would have been very resentful if she had. I would have thought, "If you don't want to have sex, why can't I take care of myself?" I have a hard time understanding why you would want to forbid your partner from masturbating when you are not in the mood for sex. It's a lot better than him finding another woman, right? And if he was hungry for food and you were not, would you want to forbid him from eating? If he ate when you were not hungry, would that be "selfish, excluding and disconnecting...and even degrading"?

Next time he wants sex and you don't, could you offer to stroke his penis slowly for a while, sort of like karezza, and then he can finish himself off when he wants to?

If you want to wait until next morning to have sex, you could try just holding or pressing your hand down on his penis without movement. Than can be comforting and reduce his horniness - sometimes. (Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't for me.) Let him guide you about how to hold it and how much pressure to apply. Similarly, just lying on top of each other quietly can be calming and soothing.

I can't say that I'm ever _happy_ to get turned down for sex, but if she can set a definite date when we can have sex, I'm a lot happier than if it's left vague and indefinite.

It sounds like you would really like your partner to adopt karezza. I'm in the same situation. As you know, this can't be forced. Our partners have to adopt it by their own free will. About all I can suggest is to have your partner look over some of the stories in Karezza Corner (http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_korner_intro). Maybe something there would inspire him to take an interest.

One more thought: You say:

I don´t know how to say "no" when I don´t like the possible consequences. I am not "free" to say "no". It´s not that I say "no" and it´s accepted...he doesn´t say "ok, alright". There are always some hidden consequences. I am not free to say "no" because maybe he would go and search for a woman who says "yes". And today the world is full of "yes, pleeease" - saying bitches (sorry).

Would you be able to express those thoughts to him? Would you feel _safe_ doing so, like he would not get angry with you because you expressed your thoughts honestly? If so, wonderful! You might be able to resolve some of your conflicts just by discussing them. If not, you might want to figure out how to make communication safer. If you think you will never feel completely safe with your partner, you might consider moving on and finding someone else. I have met very few people in my life with whom I feel completely safe. But it's really wonderful when I find them!

Good luck!

Your point of view is very interesting

You are right, I would love to try out karezza for more than a short period to see if it benefits our relationship and more. He isn´t really against it but he also isn´t really into it...so I am not sure how much chance I do have to convince him.

About the masturbation - thing: I guess I have to admit that it´s only my problem. Your comparison to eating is not exactly appropriate because eating never needs anyone near by but sex does. But of cause you are right that it´s not my choice if he does it and when or where. On the other hand I do have a right to create the room between him and me as well and if he creates it all alone - why then use our shared room? Maybe I feel offended because he just does it when he feels like it without caring if it disturbs me. It´s like as if I would pick out a cigarette and start smoking in the bed because I "feel like". Of course you cannot adjust your behavior always to your partners feelings but lying together in one bed creates a situation where a small thing can disturb the scene...I mean, there is nothing else but you and your partner and everything you do is changing the picture you both are living in. The problem is: I cannot go anywhere else and sleep there if he disturbs me - while I could just go away and do anything else if it disturbed me if he was hungry and began to eat while I was not hungry.

To go on with that picture: Masturbation feels like fast food while slow sex feels like a dinner with candles and fine delicacies. Maybe I can blame my world view that I have problems with masturbation. I never had problems until my world view changed when I tasted the feeling of karezza and conscious lovemaking...it´s not just sex, it´s a point of view. And if I do have a special point of view things that doesn´t fit in are not pleasant...this is no problem in other parts of life which are not so important but in a sexual relationship those contradictions do have weight.

Another problem is: I have the feeling I have to decide whether to join in or not if he starts, I am forced to take a stance. I wanna feel relaxed in bed and not forced to think about what I should or shouldn´t, what I want or don´t want. Yes, this must be my problem and I guess I am making it too complicated...but I don´t know how I came into that problem, what exactly caused it and how to handle it.
So the problem is not that he DOES it but that I feel pressured.

Somehow I feel rejected when he decides to masturbate...excluded, as I said. Sounds really like my problem because feeling rejected and excluded is also appearing in other situations.

I do have some special ways to think which cause me trouble in situations where I have to decide or change my decisions. It´s hard for me to change a decision I have made just the moment before and sex often creates situations where things turn into other things. A special situation is when he wants to have sex and I don´t, then he starts maybe masturbating and this turns me on...but I had decided not to have sex or do something sexual and this causes a contradiction in my mind which makes me feel bad. So I try to hold on to the old decision although my feelings have changed.

I think the best would be to join in a bit or please him by caressing his whole body (I don´t want to exclude the rest of his body^^) and maybe join in later if I acquire a taste for it. If not I simply could be happy for him.

I think regular masturbation is not really a good way to lead to karezza and subtle feelings but if he isn´t ready yet I have to accept this. Anyway, I like your ideas and will try them out. Smile

Ok, one last point: You asked if I could tell him my thoughts honestly and well...he only accepts honesty, so yes, I could. The problem is: his answers are honest, too and I think he would tell me something like that I can never be sure he never leaves me for another woman and that I reduce our relationship to a comparison to other women (I mean, statistically seen, not as a threat) and that those problems are an expression of low self-esteem but basically have nothing to do with him. But maybe I tell him anyway and the answer will be completely different.
So...I don´t feel safe in that special area, but in general our communication is very honest and if it´s not problems arise.

I think, this might be enough for now.^^

read that book pronto

you will find it SO valuable that you can choose new beliefs and how to go about doing that.

On the masturbation subject:

Simply ask him "next time you want to masturbate please do it elsewhere and dont' tell me about it."

If he asks why, tell him "I may be irrational but I can't control my feelings and I don't like to know about it at least at this point."

I stopped all masturbation almost 2 years ago. I stopped on my own. I had never hidden my masturbation from my wife but most often I masturbated by myself with porn.

My wife had been happy that I was masturbating because it took the perceived pressure off of her to have sex with me as she is very low drive and I am high drive.

But if she had asked me not to masturbate I would have been extremely upset. It isn't her business, frankly.

When I told her i had been masturbating to porn all these years, and now I wasn't going to anymore, she was quite upset and this is probably a reason why we had a rocky beginning to Karezza.

She was upset because I was no longer using masturbation as a sexual outlet and I was now focusing exclusively on her.

Talk about pressure! LOL.

If I was a woman I'd just do Karezza and let my man come as much as he wanted to. My example would eventually have an effect on him I think and he might want to try it. But pressure with sex is really, really counter productive. I wish I had known and realized this more before as it might have saved me a lot of anguish.

 

emerson wrote:

[quote=emerson]Simply ask him "next time you want to masturbate please do it elsewhere and dont' tell me about it."[/quote]

In a way I did this already...yeah ok it might have been not that patient^^
But to admit...if I was him I wouldn´t know where to go as well. I do live in one single room and he also does. And because we are having a long distance relationship all we do when we are with the other is in one room...we are doing everything together or at least in the same room (and in the garden but I think he doesn´t want to masturbate in the garden^^). We lived together for a short period and at that time it would have been possible that he masturbates while I go to university...but this is redundant information. Oh man, how does this all sound like...let´s do a masturbation -plan!^^

[quote/]She was upset because I was no longer using masturbation as a sexual outlet and I was now focusing exclusively on her.[/quote]

I would like that^^
But I can understand her as well. There can be a lot of pressure in sexual things....so much that you avoid it...which I could never understand, at least not in a relationship with a partner you desire. But even a desired one can get on one´s nerves when pushing too hard...

[quote/]But pressure with sex is really, really counter productive. I wish I had known and realized this more before as it might have saved me a lot of anguish.[/quote]

And this is really, really so true. I have to remind myself again and again. I shouldn´t force him into this karezza-thing and he shouldn´t push me neither...into something.

I can't help wondering

how your sweetheart would feel if you whipped out a vibrator every time he wasn't up for sex, and went after it in the same bed where he's trying to sleep...given that the two of you are already having a lot of intercourse.

He can't "need" the orgasms as a physical matter, since you're already having sex a lot. He's running on cravings, and itls no wonder you're resentful. Just understand that you're not really resentful of him...but rather of the current imbalance in his reward circuitry, which is driving his behavior and increasing the emotional distance between you.

It may be small comfort, but there's no amount of sex that will ever soothe a craving. So even if you gave in every time he got a boner, it wouldn'[t be enough. The only way out is balance because the more he scratches, the more he'll itch.

If he's not willing to try a time-out to see if he actually feels more satisfaction with fewer orgasms, I'm not sure what you can do.

But I'm not a fan of the "each person should just take care of his own itches" philosophy in this situation...only because it doesn't work once someone has tipped the scale into cravings from too much stimulation.

Well I had to giggle

when imagining me taking the vibrator out of the nightstand with naturalness like taking a book or a tissue...no sound at all and then...gooood vibrations I-m so happy

Well...if there is no use in giving in every time he has a boner because it will never be enough - I shouldn´t give in. Let that be my task for the next weeks.

[quote/]But I'm not a fan of the "each person should just take care of his own itches" philosophy in this situation...only because it doesn't work once someone has tipped the scale into cravings from too much stimulation.[/quote]

I...ehm...didn´t get the whole idea, it´s a problem of the language...so could you please rephrase it?

Once someone is in

an addiction cycle (even a mild one), his brain's mechanisms for satisfaction are not functioning normally. Instead, the message is always, "I need more stimulation."

This is explained in Chapter 6 of Cupid.

Milder forms of the same post-O dissatisfaction also plague normal lovers...especially after the initial honeymoon neurochemistry wears off. Will Orgasms Keep You in Love?

Thank you

but I think I meant something else. It´s hidden in the grammar which I cannot analyze fully. I cannot put my finger on it - so it´s okay, never mind. Smile

The following thoughts are

The following thoughts are not at all meant to discourage you from trying to increase the karezza and decrease the orgasms in your relationship.

I'm just thinking, AS LONG AS your partner is still masturbating, how can you make it pleasant or acceptable for both of you?

By the way, do you know your and your partner's love languages? See 5lovelanguages.com . I ask because my primary love language is definitely physical touch. I have a hard time even understanding people who are not the same way. It's like they are a different species. Smile So I tend to assume that everyone is into physical touch, and as a result some of what I say might not make sense if you are not the same way.

Anyway, I can understand that it could be bothersome if your partner masturbates in the middle of the night and wakes you up. That would seem rather inconsiderate. Could he masturbate at night before you go to sleep, or in the morning after you wake up? If he wakes up in the middle of the night and feels horny, would it bother you if he snuggled up with you, instead of masturbating? (I love being cuddled anytime. Even if it wakes me up. I just go back to sleep within a minute, with a smile on my face. Unfortunately my wife isn't much into cuddling, and doesn't like being woken up. If she wakes up in the middle of the night, she has a hard time getting back to sleep.)

When he masturbates, could you think of it as another opportunity to share some togetherness time, get some more skin to skin contact, etc.? You don't have to join in if you don't want to... just snuggle up with him while he takes care of himself. I'm sure I would like that - as either partner!

And there is no law against changing your mind! You might decide not to join in, then change you mind. Go ahead, join in! You'll both be happier, don't you think?

If he feels welcome to masturbate in your presence, that could lead to opportunities for you to say "Can we just snuggle?" (instead of him masturbating). He might discover that snuggling can be a satisfying substitute for masturbation.

I'm glad to hear that the communication between you is good.

I always found it hard

to change my own habits but in comparison to changing others habits it is really easy...some drug addicts are locked up for 3 days alone in a room without their drugs to fight their addiction and this is because their addiction is STRONGER than they are. They cannot do it by will. The same with depressed people: You cannot convince them life is beautiful and everything´s going to be good again, they are stick in their mind and you don´t have the key. With stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.^^

My will is very strong and so I could stop masturbating because I was convinced of the advantages...in fact, it is very easy when you work with energy- transformation. But without this conviction you will never ever make it and find ways how to make it. The fight against addiction or self-destructive thinking and behavior is not very promising, because people identify with it and refuse to fight against this part of their "selves". It´s not them who decide, it´s their addiction.

Now I really understand: it´s not my choice, it´s his choice - and for now he is not able to choose because his addiction decides. And this is no addiction where I can lock him up in a room for 3 days I-m so happy

[quote/]He might discover that snuggling can be a satisfying substitute for masturbation.[/quote]

When I told him snuggling makes my cravings for orgasm go away or less intensive he told me for him it´s not like that. If it´s like that how can I even try karezza...isn´t that basic? Exchange orgasm for snuggling and caressing without staying horny?
I think he is a very hard case. I cannot convince him by showing him directly (that would be the easiest way) because he has not enough consciousness about those things. The things I gave him to read gave him a brief glimpse but it didn´t have the strong effect it had on me. He turned back to old habits very fast. I thought it would be okay if I lived this way and he that way but it doesn´t work. Sexuality is too essential. If it doesn´t work I have to quit the relationship (on the other hand: nearly everybody is like that so I won´t get a good exchange).
I was too coward to give him the essential texts cause I thought I could convince him step by step, learning by doing and so on. Do it softly, making compromises. This seems to be one of MY real bad habits: compromises. His addiction is strong and he has to change his behavior on his own free will. So I have to give him CPA though I am afraid he will criticize it or even won´t read it.

To clear up: He doesn´t wake up in the middle of the night and begins to masturbate - often we go to bed very late and then he begins to masturbate...before we sleep. Or of course he wants to sleep with me. And of course I am tired that late in the night.

You are so welcome --

it's nice to be able to make a contribution. I thought that article on why women shut down was pretty darn good. I have since seen other references to how important it is for men to know how to touch a woman's breasts in a particular manner. It was news to me!! I think I shut down at such an early age - maybe even before becoming sexual with a man - that I have no clue what another state of being would be like.

There's a group on Facebook which page is Sacred Sexuality. It is a closed group - you must be approved to join. There are currently posts being made on how we women can be "opened up" from maybe eons of being closed.

Six initiatives

Janet's husband Gene wrote a great short piece for men; I highly recommend that he reads this piece. It's even better if you can read it together. I think it will help you both understand "feeling used" and not compromising; i.e. having sex when you don't want to. This helped me and my wife make the transition.

Well...

I am afraid of giving it to him though he would benefit from it´s messages. It´s a bit too...hm...emotional? And I suppose he wouldn´t like the way a woman is represented...poor thing and so on. Well, by reading this text one thought appeared: Maybe he is also closed. Sometimes he is so angry about "women"...

One other thought that appeared is: I could make him feel and act present by asking him to tell me everything that feels good and describe it - when it actually happens. So his mind will come to the present and he will realize the current actions that take place in his body...

I think it's about respect

and for the man to view his woman as both different from him, and equal. But I also know that you can't make another person want to change. And you would most likely know if that piece would speak to him or not.

In my case, the "argument" for Karezza style lovemaking over hot orgasmic sex was easy . Instead of 15 minutes of sex once a week, I'm now spending around 5 or 6 hours a week making love...that's more than 20x increase in quantity. The quality is way better too because BOTH of us are enjoying it. And my wife is asking ME for sex instead of the other way around. So what if I choose to pass on a few 10 second orgasms. Wouldn't I rather be having all this great sex?!?

So if you stop giving in (compromising), and instead give him direct honest feedback about how your sexual encounters aren't working for you, then HOPEFULLY he will care enough about your feelings and your satisfaction to try something different. I didn't know my wife was avoiding sex before. Once we started down this path, she admitted it to me. I had sensed it, but thought I was just being paranoid. If you told him that you have sex just because he pressures you, not because you actually want to, I bet you'll have his attention. Men are deathly afraid of being bad lovers. You wouldn't want to tell him that directly, but if he somehow got the message that you are left feeling unsatisfied after sex, maybe he will want to do something about it.

sender wrote:

[quote=sender]I think it´s about respect and for the man to view his woman as both different from him, and equal. But I also know that you can't make another person want to change. And you would most likely know if that piece would speak to him or not.[/quote]

You are right. It´s about respect and I am afraid he might not respect me and I would most likely know by the way of his reaction to this text. I am so very coward. I am afraid he might turn out as an asshole who doesn´t respect me - he sometimes behaved like that but I guess nobody´s perfect. On the other hand he surprised me with very attentive and caring behavior (where I expected the opposite) - so the chances might be not so bad.

Thank you.

Resistance cannot stand in the face of an open heart

It would be interesting to see what happened if you told him that from a place of absolute vulnerability. To be vulnerable like that is hard to do, especially if it's unilateral. But if you can get yourself there, and deliver the message from your heart without any agenda to manipulate him, then I suspect it will work magic.

I doubt very much that he's a complete asshole. If he was, you'd probably know that by now. In any case, it sounds to me like your work is to develop your self-esteem. I say that because you are so worried about losing him that you're not willing to expect him to respect you, or even find out if he does. Respect is just a word, a place holder for a larger idea; that he should care about you, that your feelings should matter, that he shouldn't place his own desires of the moment above your needs and feelings. Everyone should expect that from their lover! But you have to be the one to express those feelings and to voice those needs, and you'll only do that if you feel secure enough that either he won't leave you, or that you'll be o.k. if he does.

You're right - no one is perfect, but you do not have to accept him prioritizing his needs over yours. He can't choose to treat you differently if you're not giving him enough information about what your needs and feelings are; when you want sex, when you don't; how you like to be touched, made love to, etc. So I invite you to own your side of his "respect problem". It's vitally important for you to speak up. That will take courage. Courage is not the absence of fear, but action in the face of it. Take a risk!

The way to get the love you want is to be unwilling to settle for anything less.

As a former porn addict, I used to rationalize and justify my needs to the point that they overrode my desire to respect my wife's needs and feelings. I'm sick about it now, but that's in the past. If he's using porn, or even masturbating using fantasy (which is basically using porn stored in his memory), then it's unlikely that he will be able to perceive your needs as being equally important to his, and he will tell himself anything so he can get you to give him his fix of live-action porn.

You may also find, as I did, that doing the Ecstatic Exchanges, essentially bonding behaviors while giving up orgasm for a few weeks will significantly alter his brain chemistry (and yours) so that it becomes much easier to speak freely about these things with each other without feeling like you're risking the relationship. Everything becomes a lot lighter. If he's willing to give it a try, I highly recommend it Smile

You seem to have a good connection to his way of thinking

Many of your ideas seem to fit in...

[quote=sender]It would be interesting to see what happened if you told him that from a place of absolute vulnerability. To be vulnerable like that is hard to do, especially if it's unilateral. But if you can get yourself there, and deliver the message from your heart without any agenda to manipulate him, then I suspect it will work magic.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure it will work magic because he was always criticizing that I am not speaking directly from my heart but altering everything a bit, just as much as needed to hide behind something but making the words still sound authentic. To speak out the truth without hiding behind anything (which could sound like reproach, moaning or explaining myself) would make him happy.

You are right, my self-esteem isn´t very large at the moment and I should make my needs clear (again: without making reproaches).

[quote/]You're right - no one is perfect, but you do not have to accept him prioritizing his needs over yours. He can't choose to treat you differently if you're not giving him enough information about what your needs and feelings are; when you want sex, when you don't; how you like to be touched, made love to, etc. So I invite you to own your side of his "respect problem". It's vitally important for you to speak up. That will take courage. Courage is not the absence of fear, but action in the face of it. Take a risk! [/quote]

I guess he is prioritizing his needs over mine because I don´t tell him my needs - probably because I am afraid they couldn´t be satisfied or ignored. Just before I read your last post I had the idea that I will tell him where I wanna be touched and what I like most the next time we meet (this evening). I am even taking the risk to suggest he would love to hear that from me and improve his qualities as a lover.^^

The other way around - he shall tell me what he likes - sounds good, too. Those may be the first steps for now.

[quote/]The way to get the love you want is to be unwilling to settle for anything less.[/quote]

I would need someone to remind me often about this...for the next few days I will try not to forget about it and stay with the idea.

[quote/]If he's using porn, or even masturbating using fantasy (which is basically using porn stored in his memory), then it's unlikely that he will be able to perceive your needs as being equally important to his, and he will tell himself anything so he can get you to give him his fix of live-action porn.[/quote]

Maybe my feelings of being used came from anywhere near this area. He is not using porn but masturbating frequently, so yes, being a fix of live-action "mind-porn" isn´t exactly what I´d like to be. Last time we had sex it felt more like he was masturbating and I was really surprised that this thought at least had found it´s way into my mind because I´ve always thought it was a feeling I would never feel in our relationship (like: we are different and it will never happen to us). Strangely when I asked him if he had slept with me without desire for my body and soul he said "no". Maybe my question was not exactly enough.

I am glad to hear those things you wrote from a male perspective and that you overcome those destructive patterns.

In general,

it's better to clear these things up while there's still a lot of goodwill between you. If things continue to deteriorate, he will feel even more resentful about making any changes.

I think Sender has a good point. You have to present the idea as a way to make more sex, and more enjoyable sex the ultimate goal, even if there's an awkward adjustment period during which compromise really doesn't help. That's why trying 3 weeks one way can help a lot, because you don't have to negotiate with each encounter. If it's not working, then you can always go back to conventional sex. That way, he won't feel trapped.

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]I think Sender has a good point. You have to present the idea as a way to make more sex, and more enjoyable sex the ultimate goal[/quote]

Yes indeed, this is a good point that normally should convince him to try out, even if he´s not fully convinced it will work. Maybe I can still manage to stay 2 or 3 weeks with him.

Strawberry -

I pulled this excerpt from an old article I unpublished on this site, because it's a bit out-of-date, but I think it describes what I was trying to explain. There are really two types of libido. One is genuinely the "urge to merge," and the other is "the urge to get off to get a fix." The first nourishes both partners; the second isn't really very satisfying for either partner.

Obviously, it's not easy for the person dealing with cravings for orgasm to distinguish. Usually, s/he needs a time-out for the brain to start registering satisfaction normally again before the truth becomes evident...in hindsight.

EXCERPT:

"My Big Libido"

We humans tend to believe that an intense urge to have sex is proof of a "mighty libido," but it may turn out that in today's porn-saturated, monster cactus between cowboy's legspro-orgasm culture, it is more often simply proof of "intense withdrawal discomfort" caused by low dopamine following sexual satiation (over-stimulation of the reward circuit of the brain). In effect, a burning desire to make love is not evidence that the withdrawal (or low dopamine) phase has passed; it may instead signal its nadir. As explained, a male-model lover in the "ebb" portion of the passion cycle is desperate to get his dopamine up - something passion can easily achieve. Not only that, orgasm will usually temporarily bump up his oxytocin.11

So his strategy for returning to feeling "in love" is to strive for orgasm with his partner. Briefly, his strategy succeeds. Unfortunately, however, when his dopamine plummets shortly afterward, his emotional bond also weakens again. This leaves the post-passion lover in a particularly uncomfortable bind: emotionally distant (because the dopamine, or desire, element of the bonding mechanism is largely absent) and (very soon) sexually-frustrated.

One possible outcome is a pattern of cold behavior, completely lacking in affection, punctuated by brief periods of lust (excruciatingly portrayed by Leo Tolstoy in The Kreutzer Sonata).12 In a sense, for the male-model lover, libido has two rather distinct faces - which have noticeably different effects on his level of spontaneous affection and his perception of his mate. One type of libido arises from a genuine urge to merge (a search for deeper intimacy with another).

The other is primarily the urge to seek relief during the withdrawal phase that follows sexual satiation. During the second one his urge to be affectionate naturally declines and he may perceive his lover as unusually irritating or draining. Understandably, humanity confuses these two - very different - underlying states of mind, and fails to recognize an important truth about why a man's lovemaking affects a female partner so differently at different times. A superficial analysis instead concludes that her response is obviously due to her "unhealthy" libido. Sex is not, in fact, just sex - regardless of the perspective of the male-model lover suffering from low dopamine. If it were, the more someone masturbated, the happier he would be.

Sex to "scratch an itch" leads to fleeting relief, but not to sustained fulfillment.13 Moreover, when one is in a low-dopamine phase during the days after sexual satiation, one may be concerned not with a partner's well-being at all - but only with easing one's own discomfort. While under this influence, affection is most often an unwelcome delay of relief, and confined to the brief moments of intense passion. Such behavior does not indicate a fundamental character flaw; it's largely a consequence of the intent focus on elevating dopamine to comfortable levels as quickly as possible.

The tragedy is that the harder an uncomfortable male pursues relief, the more he may drive an emotional wedge between himself and his "frigid" lover - and the less inclined she may be to offer the nourishing comfort of sexual intercourse in the future.

We believe that future research will further clarify the interaction between testosterone and dopamine, and reveal why men (and perhaps anyone who heavily pursues orgasm via pornography, lots of hot foreplay, or masturbation) may be more sensitive to dopamine levels (both high and low).14 Either way, the withdrawal phase can be acutely uncomfortable for the male-model lover. It's difficult indeed to resist the urge to get a big "reward" from raising dopamine via a quick orgasm, with or without a partner.

Unfortunately, lacking an understanding of the complete passion cycle, a male-model lover fails to realize that a "relief-orgasm" guarantees another dismal withdrawal period just ahead. Like any addict, he has deferred his problem, but not resolved it. Today's media, however, assures him that this uncomfortable addiction cycle defines "healthy sexuality." And if his love life stalls, he is advised to increase the novelty in it (to raise his dopamine).15 However, as long as he uses "hot sex" as his benchmark of fulfillment, he is caught in an intensifying addictive cycle. The low points in the cycle can ultimately convince him that he needs sexual enhancement drugs. As one man wrote,

I think there is a correlation between porn viewing and erectile dysfunction. I am sure that if a study were actually done with honest men, we would see significant results. This is the type of issue people don't talk about. However, I think the porn industry is causing a huge problem in relationships and society in general. The porn industry takes advantage of the uninformed public by charging for the porn. Then the pharmaceutical companies sell us drugs to treat the side effects.

"My Broken Heart"

The female response to withdrawal discomfort generally leads to a different overall strategy. It may be heavily influenced by oxytocin. As with dopamine, oxytocin has lots of benefits when at balanced levels.sudden broken heart16 Research reveals that oxytocin tends to calm, speed healing, increase sexual receptivity, and counter the effects of cortisol (stress), cravings, and depression. Oxytocin is also linked to emotional bonds. Indeed, we could not fall in love without it.

However, as with dopamine, excessive oxytocin (or oxytocin binding to the "wrong" receptors) can have quite different effects. Recent research shows that relationship distress is actually associated with higher oxytocin (possibly due to high prolactin) — but does not counter a woman's stress response.17 In other words, her high oxytocin doesn't help her cope when she perceives disharmony in her relationship (a common perception during the withdrawal phase of the passion cycle). Indeed, high oxytocin may exacerbate her insistence upon a closer union (making her clingy, demanding, or irrationally jealous).18

19 She may also seek relief through processing her relationship woes with friends, shopping, eating chocolate ice cream, and so forth. Low dopamine may contribute to the desperation that many women exhibit during this phase. Low dopamine tends to show up in both sexes as a sense of lack. (Other symptoms of low dopamine include depression, sleep disorders, and "restless leg" syndrome.)

Yet, whereas low dopamine may make a man feel depleted and emotionally distant (in between his attempts to self-medicate with orgasm), it takes a different form in a woman. Her sense of lack seems to manifest as a craving for reassurance. She may believe that she is simply responding to her partner's changed (and less attentive) behavior. After all, it is often evident to the woman that feelings of genuine affection are absent (or geared strictly toward his arousal), and that he is in a selfish frame of mind. Being used as a "fix" is not at all the same experience as intercourse that is a mutual act of nourishing intimacy.

However, in our experience, her post-passion mood swings are predictable enough to be linked to her own passion cycle and its fluctuating neurochemicals. In short, regardless of her mate's actual behavior, she is likely to feel like her needs are not being met. As a friend in this phase of her romance wrote,

He mentioned he doesn't want to feel vulnerable. What happens is that I feel Love for him even more, which is frustrating. I've chosen the wrong man again.

All of this means that, during withdrawal, just as a man perceives his first order of business to be raising his dopamine with passion, a woman perceives her first order of business to be resolving the relationship disharmony that is associated with her elevated oxytocin (and prolactin?). Her exaggerated behavior not infrequently drives her partner away…indirectly causing her to fulfill evolution's command to end her relationship and move on.

The media's assurance that a happy sex life is one that conforms to the addictive passion cycle has unwelcome implications for women as well. sexy, but unhappyResearchers tend to pathologize a woman's natural lack of response to a lover suffering from withdrawal (especially during her own withdrawal). Pharmaceutical companies are already seeking approval for drugs that would artificially elevate her dopamine with sexual enhancement drugs. These could very likely have risky side effects.

In truth, her libido is most likely dormant, not ill (as those who opt for affairs will attest.20) More significantly, such drugs cannot duplicate the subtle, complex neurochemical dance required to keep partners "in love." At best they can inflame the addictiveness of sex, and, sadly, the severity of the withdrawal phase itself - creating even more emotional friction.

Evolution Wins

Whatever the strategy, neither gender solves the problem of restoring the lost feeling of being "in love." Too often, couples try to duplicate mutual magnetism by fantasizing, watching pornography, engaging in more intense foreplay or novel positions. This tactic certainly has noticeable short-term effects, but, as a dopamine-increasing strategy, it ultimately intensifies the cycle of highs and lows. Therefore, it can create intense mood swings that erode the emotional bond of the couple.

Frequently, the woman, reflecting on the natural attentiveness of the early days of courtship, mistakenly concludes that the full correction lies in technique. "If only my partner would show more affection or engage in extended foreplay, then I would feel more satisfied." In fact, however, going through the motions of affectionate foreplay cannot entirely duplicate the fulfillment that accompanies mutual desire for deeper union. When either partner is suffering from withdrawal, sex simply doesn't feel the way it does when both are "in love."

Alas, evolution has shaped both men and women to slide from feeling "in love" toward feeling disillusioned. Selfishness and defensiveness replace mutual consideration as the basis of the relationship. This may explain the brevity of the "honeymoon" period during most relationships. One study found that the glow generally begins to fade in the second year of marriage.21 In this way intimate relationships tend to become hostile or flat over time - and yet surprisingly rapidly. We say "surprisingly" because friendships and relationships with pets and children don't suffer such rapid, radical deterioration.

Why is the problem largely confined to intimate partners? To keep us moving on to new mates in order to increase genetic diversity. Unfortunately this evolutionary "move on" command works all too well. Over 95% of all mammals do not pair bond at all.

In our experience, lovers have to change the way they make love if they would stay more affectionate, feel satisfied, and maintain a healthy libido. This solution, which is very ancient and found in diverse cultures, is the best protection against passion's neurochemical roller coaster ride.

My husband recently said that making love is like inflating a balloon. Having an orgasm is like popping the balloon, whereas if you finish without an orgasm it is like you are a balloon that takes several days to gradually deflate, leaving you much longer to enjoy the inflated feeling. (As I have mentioned before, I love how - even though he does not acknowledge any relationship harmony effects through this style of lovemaking, or anything wrong with orgasm - he prefers avoiding it because he simply feels better after.)

What really soothes sexual frustration?

Long ago, the Chinese noticed that ejaculation, although depleting physical reserves, has the opposite effect on sexual desire. "After an immediate postcoital letdown, there is a rapid psychological rebound and an intensification of erotic interest [and wet dreams]." This is consistent with the addiction cycle described above. controlled intercourse

This insight also suggests a cure for sexual addiction: "When the ching is full, one is free of lustful thoughts."22 In other words, when one avoids feelings of depletion (low dopamine), one's sexual frustration declines. The ancient Chinese solution? Make love frequently, but without the orgasm, and thereby gain the many benefits of sexual intimacy while avoiding the addictive high/low cycle of sex. This course protects mutual magnetism, or healthy libido. (We would define healthy libido as a genuine desire for the deeper intimacy of intercourse - which is not dependent upon climax for satisfaction.)

It is mutual magnetism, not simply lust, that supports a profound emotional connection with one's mate. The mainstream media cannot envision mutual magnetism without orgasm - or sexual frustration. However, the result of a connection based on love is a natural increase in sexual self-control, as explained by Dr. J. William Lloyd:

Karezza [lovemaking without orgasm] is easy and successful just in proportion to the abundance of mutual love - hard and difficult just in proportion as mere sex-craving dominates love. If the woman loves her mate so much that his mere presence, voice, touch, are a heaven of joy to her, so much that the sex-relation is only an adjunct and she could be happy if entirely without it, then, by a sort of paradox, not only does she enjoy it twice as exquisitely as her merely sex-craving sister, but can let it go at any moment without a pang. On the other hand the more the man rises above mere sex-hunger in delicious perfection of romantic love, the more easy and natural and effortless becomes Karezza-control, and the less likely is he to [ejaculate]...

A less-driven, more affectionate, approach benefits us because we stay bonded more easily, granting us the many healthy benefits of trusted companionship (faster healing, increased longevity, better overall health).23

With this alternative approach, dopamine doesn't drop off radically, as it does after orgasm, and generous touch and trusted companionship sustain the production of oxytocin. In short, this other approach to lovemaking protects the neurochemistry that maintains the pair bond.

Karezza coupleIn the end, the most satisfying sexual encounters occur when we are not making love because we're seeking relief from an uncomfortable withdrawal. Fulfilling lovemaking is a function of an inner sense of abundance (moderate levels of dopamine) and lots of selfless consideration for each other (ideal levels of oxytocin).

This state is dependent upon balanced brain chemistry in the reward circuit of the brain - and the self-discipline necessary to maintain it. Only then can we consistently make love with each other's well-being at heart - and elude evolution's tactic of diverging libidos.

You know

what annoys me the most? That I lost the opportunity of taking him with me the gentle way - I am not able anymore to do slow sex because he always tries to speed up. I am better in convincing someone through my present being than by talking and explaining. I am really not good in speeches or discussions, I tend to loose my common theme and am not able to express my thoughts appropriately. I guess I have to let someone else talk for me like the books and texts mentioned here.

Just a thought. Thanks to all of you for your help and points of view. Smile

This is not easy

for any couple, so don't be hard on yourself.

In my experience, if you leave orgasm as the goal...even after a slow beginning to your lovemaking, then the primitive part of the brain automatically starts speeding things up again with each session. After all, friction is the fastest way to get off (which remains the goal). And the more frequent the orgasms, the less the slow, affection registers as enjoyable - and the more the person believes s/he needs more orgasm to feel good. So it becomes a downward spiral, because more orgasms can actually desensitize the response to pleasure, driving a further search for orgasm via sex/masturbation - and making deep affection and slow intercourse seem pointless.

This other approach to sex isn't about making orgasm "bad," it's about making orgasm not the goal. When you both do that, it shifts the character of the entire exchange at a very fundamental level.

Obviously, resentment veils the benefits (even if someone unwillingly goes through the motions), so you need to make it clear to him that you aren't criticizing him or his lovemaking...but that you want to find a way to enhance the deeply pleasurable aspects and benefits.

Today

we will do Exchange number 2, hopefully (he seems to be a little ill). We started number 1 two days ago but didn´t do the Exchanges yesterday because we were too tired. So I suggested to do them before night starts `cause I am sure it won´t work if we do them late.
He liked the first Exchange but isn´t that motivated as I am...I think this is because he doesn´t know the "whole story" - the theories behind the Exchanges. I made the idea very simple - I said the Exchanges would make better and longer sex possible by cuddling in many different ways for 3 weeks. I also told him we could stop if we didn´t like it (I guess this is the compromising part of my personality) .

I didn´t tell him much about the theory because I wanted us to start the Exchanges - to experience. I once tried to explain to him but it wasn´t that convincing and I hate to explain things because I am not able to make the idea clear - so I decided to make it clear through experience. Well, I guess he needs more information but he still can read CPA.

He sometimes makes fun of the whole thing...I guess it´s his resistance. It´s hard for me to tell him what I want because it often makes him defensive - I guess my way of wanting is too intensive, too demanding. I even created some childish pictures about cuddling kittens to explain the Exchanges because I feared his resistance...I had to downplay and trivialize things - well, I don´t know if I really had to but it felt like I had to.

If anyone knows how to ask someone without creating resistance (or if you know a good book) - please tell me. Smile
I am too compromising in these things because I am not able to ask in a good way.

In general,

the experience should speak for itself, but depending upon how frequently someone was orgasming when s/he moves into the Exchanges, there can initially be a bit of restlessness (mild withdrawal), which veils some of the benefits/potential of the practice. So the experience will have some ups and downs. Make sure he knows not to judge things too hastily.

Be very generous with whatever non-sexual touch he likes. It can help him through any discomfort. He can do more such touch for you later, when he's feeling more like it.

 

Cuddling kittens

[quote=strawberry field]I even created some childish pictures about cuddling kittens to explain the Exchanges because I feared his resistance...I had to downplay and trivialize things - well, I don´t know if I really had to but it felt like I had to.

If anyone knows how to ask someone without creating resistance (or if you know a good book) - please tell me. :-).[/quote]

If the Exchanges work out for you, then that's great. Unless your bloke is a particular cat lover, though, and gets off on what is, essentially, cuteness, then I think your drawings of cuddling kittens will lack the esential sexiness that he's probably craving.

Curiousfellow posted a link to a lovely little ebook:

Http://www.reuniting.info/blogs/curiousfellow/cuddle-sutra

The drawings are simple but, I think, sexy: and that's with clothes on. If your bloke doesn't seem too keen on a prolonged diet of either the Exchanges or cuddling, it seems to me, if you're willing, you could take turns to make love each other's way. He can't force you to have an orgasm if you'd rather not, and you can't force him not to have one if he wants to; but you could both agree to make love slowly, one day, in the way you want, and faster, the next time, as he prefers.

We found knowing we would do what we most wanted, next time, made doing now, what we wanted less, much easier. It also enabled suprising, and effortless, changes to take place in what we prioritised. Scheduled lovemaking was great fun, and took all the pressure off.

We've moved on since then as we're (almost) on the same page now; but one thing I must comment on is the issue of communication. We may be an odd pair but I've come to the conclusion that the spoken word in most 'conversations' concerning intimacy and desire is best avoided altogether. Looking, touching, and making contented noises are all you need. I'm shocked this is the case; but every time we've had major dialogues about 'sex', they've invariably backfired.

The best use of words is to make regular appointments where you don't need them.

Good luck!

Make him understand how important it is to you

Are you inviting him to try something with you or trying to manipulate him into doing it whether he wants to or not? If it comes across as manipulation (i.e. you've decided the outcome, you're just trying to figure out how to get him to do it), that's the surest way to get a defensive reaction. Remember the open heart thing?

Why is this so important to you? If you tell him that, I bet he will understand. Taking a risk is hard because, well...it's taking a risk! If you display your feelings without hiding; tell him what's really going on inside you, are you afraid he'll mock you? Reject you? Whatever it is, you need to take some deep breaths and forge ahead anyway. The only way he'll understand how important it is to you and why is if you tell him. If you don't, all you can expect is resistance.

I also think he needs to know you're not satisfied with the sex. That's a tough one because no man wants to hear that he's bad in bed. But he can't change that without the information; otherwise he'll think things are just peachy and keep doing the same things. It's your responsibility to get the message across; you can't expect him to read your mind!

If you give him the information (you're not satisfied, and you want to try another way, and here's why, etc), and you show him how important it is to you and he still doesn't care, well then maybe he really is a selfish asshole.

What I've come to understand is that my own inner selfish asshole completely kills the quality of the sex. Whenever I come from that place, it's a disaster. Check out this: http://www.reuniting.info/mans_role_karezza, especially the part about man serving woman.

Good luck!

By the way, I'm struggling

By the way, I'm struggling with something similar (in terms of the communication part) at the moment. My wife had an uh-O 18 days ago, and we've made love only once since then. So there was the post-O hangover, then we went camping for three days and didn't do any bonding behaviors. We're back on track now, but I'm definitely feeling some sexual frustration. So I've been struggling with how to tell her that without being pushy. I feel frustrated, but I don't expect her to do anything about it. I want her to open at her own pace, but I also want to be honest about what I'm feeling. I struggle with it because I'm still tempted to try and control her reaction. But I can't - so I just need to be honest about what I am feeling and not expect her to do anything about it. I'm still learning how to do that.

Get back into those daily

snuggles and it should speed up the the willingness to meet each other's needs. And making a date to spend a couple hours in bed lolling around doing...whatever...is also likely to kickstart things.

I guess

if you follow your own instructions and tell her what is really going on with you the impulse to control her reaction will fade...this is what I experienced. Of course this needs practice...for me it´s something very new.

True

But I also need to just get over myself. My recovering addict believes I need sex (a lot). No such thing is true. Making love karezza-style will happen when it happens because we are present and in a good, loving space, which is is not possible when I'm trying to make something happen. It's a zen thing, and I clearly have a long way to go. I have a few reference points from when it went well. I just need to grow-the-fuck up and be of service to my woman in every way possible. When I lose sight of that is when the trouble starts. So maybe I don't need to tell her I'm feeling sexually frustrated, but instead drop that selfish attitude and get on with the business of being a better man.

Inviting

and not being selfish and manipulating...yes, those things are existential. I was wondering about how to ask him without being pushy and came to the solution to invite him. Not formally...I have to feel the invitation, the state of mind when being open and welcoming.

I also was wondering why it is so important to me to do the Exchanges and noticed I didn´t really know...until he asked me about the Exchanges and I told him some more details. It was in the middle of the night, I was really tired and therefore was really surprised I could tell him everything in a short and rational way and he was able to understand the essence. I told him about two ways of making love and the two "pedals" described in Marnias book - that "f...ing like dogs" was getting people apart and making love consciously with lots of cuddling would make people more loving, peaceful and calm....and that I preferred the second way of living and loving. He completely understood what I was saying which made me very happy.

I am really tired of fighting and I know where it´s coming from and I sense he begins to know as well. We didn´t have sex since last sunday and we are cuddling a LOT and didn´t have a fight since then (well, only one little fight) and we tell each other very often how much we love the other...so I hope he gets the idea.

The only thing I am not satisfied with is that we still didn´t do the second Exchange...this is just silly procrastination...but as we are cuddling a lot it won´t be too bad. Maybe he will be more motivated now that he knows where the Exchanges come from.

Sounds like

it's "working."

Remember, there's no magic in the Exchanges. They are just structured "bonding behaviors." The usefulness of the structure is that the Exchanges don't call for intercourse for the two weeks...with lots of affectionate, playful touch in the meantime. It's fine to be your own Scheherazade if you have the energy and imagination. Or just exchange non-foreplay touch you both really like.

Some Thoughts about Your Relationship

Since I am your boyfriend’s age Marnia asked me to give a younger male opinion on your situation. You already have a lot of really good responses and suggestions for working on your relationship and Karezza. The response you get from the community is one the great things about this site. Since I don’t want to just reiterate what someone else has said I will try to give you a different perspective; the first one you may think is a little odd but try it anyway.

I went back and read through your posts from the beginning and you and your boyfriend have a very turbulent relationship. Your original post was titled “Calming down the Inner Bitch”—that one scared me a little. You also have a bunch of postings where you and your boyfriend just really seem to be sniping at each other. Earlier in this thread you said “What I also have learned is: fighting is very close to sex.” I completely agree they are both very strong emotional releases. But fighting is just so exhausting; is it really worth it to be mad that much? I have a suggestion for a “date” for you and your boyfriend, I hope you like American movies. The War of the Roses, it was from 1989, stars Michael Douglas, Kathleen Turner, and Danny DeVito. It’s an old movie, my girlfriend and I watched it on Netflix. It is a black comedy and shows the logical or maybe illogical conclusion of a seemingly good relationship that goes bad. This is an amusing “what not to do” lesson and may make you think before getting mad.

Henry Clay (1777-1852), an American politician, was famous for saying “I would rather be right than president.” He was right and he was never president, even though he tried 5 times. You and your boyfriend can keep fighting and it doesn’t matter who is right you both lose. You can’t force him to like Karezza and he can’t force you not to have ill effects from orgasms. You really need to throw out the baggage and start with a clean slate. Since you are the one who is posting looks like you take the first step. Here is a guy’s prospective: When you turn your boyfriend down for sex he feels you are dissing him. “Dissing” means “disrespecting” or that you are making a personal insult turning him down. That is American slang and about the best word for how he views it—not sure it would be understood in German or to those over 40 if I didn’t explain it. If you understand that is how he feels you can better understand why he reacts the way he does.

You can’t stop him from masturbating. I’m not certain that you have the moral right to even if you could. To a guy jerking off doesn’t have the same implication it does to you—and probably most women. Most guys view jerking off like urinating; extra fluid and you need to get rid of the pressure. Several other guys have said the same thing, and when their significant other isn’t into sex they take things into their own hands—pun intended. I did like Marnia’s comment about whipping out the vibrator and going to town; it may put the situation in perspective for him or he may just think it is hot. If you are having plenty of sex and he is constantly jerking off he really needs to ask himself why—a question only he can answer. The answer should state how he FEELS before, during and after he masturbates, have you ever asked him? If he is honest enough to tell you don’t beat him up over the answer, it is how he feels and everyone is allowed their feelings.

So how do you handle not wanting intercourse with your boyfriend occasionally? The first thing is not to escalate the situation because as soon as either of you do, neither one of you are listening you are just arguing. Then if you don’t want to have sex with him tell him why; you have a headache, your back hurts, etc. You need to end that explanation with “I don’t feel like intercourse but we can still do something pleasurable for you.” This time instead of him masturbating or jerking off by himself you could offer to help him. All you need to do is hold him or kiss him, a little rubbing, use your imagination as long as you are mildly stimulating him somehow. This is sort of like how you described putting your finger in your vagina to feel good. You also want to have him try to stop before he ejaculates, if he does it right he will feel a warm pleasure come over him. Emerson describes concentrating on the root of his penis, probably a good place for your boyfriend to start. If it doesn’t work out the first time try another time, gently help him avoid orgasm even if you are not having intercourse. This doesn’t require a lot of effort on your part and you are connecting with him.

It would help you to adjust your viewpoint on sex with your boyfriend. You said you view sex with your boyfriend as him taking from you, he gets his and you get nothing. But love is about giving; giving the other person pleasure. If you love someone you want them to be happy and receive pleasure even if you don’t have an immediate return. During the summer my girlfriend works at a cheerleading camp held at the university. She is outside in the heat all day from when the kids finish breakfast until they go to dinner and sometimes even after that. She comes back to the dorm room, takes a shower and lies down on the bed. She is usually exhausted. Sometimes I just rub her feet, then her legs and she starts falling asleep. I am not getting anything directly but I really enjoy making her feel better and the exchange we have by touching. Obviously there are other days where we have total intimacy.

Your boyfriend thinks slow sex is boring and so do some of the partners of other posters. Karezza isn’t always just slow thrusting and it doesn’t need to be boring. There is other touching and making out, even some oral if you are careful. I am not certain of the thread maybe Marnia can find it but we had one with a bunch of diagrams for positions. Those were from Richardson’s book as I remember. Also search the site for “positions” some interesting comments come up.

Last thing; establish a “no fault” orgasm policy. Orgasms happen, intentional or unintentional and you don’t need to fight about it. Having an orgasm doesn’t negate every other positive thing you have done with Karezza. Just move on to the next time, even if your boyfriend keeps having them. Like I said you can’t force him to like Karezza; you can encourage him and show him the benefits and he will likely follow you along in the practices. Love encourages many good feelings especially in the person giving love.

From some of your later comments on this tread it looks like you are already seeing a little improvement, keep blogging and let everyone know what works for you—that is how we all learn.

I am really impressed

by the response of this community...and that you "really" answered. Smile

By your answer I could get another inside. First of all I recognized how other´s must perceive my relationship and I wondered how much of it was true and what it tells about me.

[quote=Maso]I went back and read through your posts from the beginning and you and your boyfriend have a very turbulent relationship. Your original post was titled “Calming down the Inner Bitch”—that one scared me a little. You also have a bunch of postings where you and your boyfriend just really seem to be sniping at each other. Earlier in this thread you said “What I also have learned is: fighting is very close to sex.” [/quote]

The thing is: I tend to perceive feelings, thoughts and impressions (much?) more intensive than others do. This is, I guess, what leads to the impression me and my boyfriend had a very turbulent relationship...what I want to say is: It´s not that extreme as it seems to be - what I described was from a state of intense feelings and reflects only one piece (and moment) of the whole relationship. We have phases of fighting but also phases of harmony. Of course my drive to get some help is stronger when we are in a phase of fighting...and this is what I describe then. Well I guess this all is obvious but I felt I had to make things clear.

When I say "fighting is close to sex" I mean I realized the interference and especially my experience of more fighting the day after sex - it wasn´t meant as "another" hint that our relationship is full of fighting. Fighting is very intense for me and therefore it bothers me a lot and makes me feel very exhausted. This is why fighting is a subject often mentioned here...it stirs me up, even a small fight. I hope you understand, it´s not easy to describe. I am sorry I scared you with my headline, I guess my choice of words is often too strong.

Karezza seemed to be a way to more harmony but sometimes it seems to be a reason for fighting...^^
I am so into it that I talk about it too much. I stopped that a few days ago. We stopped the Exchanges as well, in fact we hadn´t really started. We just had a few nice days of cuddling. I realized now that I have to avoid the subject "karezza" because otherwise I will get on his nerves. He doesn´t get the idea and he doesn´t recognize that fighting is close to sex.

One positive aspect of giving up the idea for a while is that I lost my strong urges to "do" karezza and to convince him to try out. Giving up makes "fighting for karezza" unnecessary. I can simply sleep with him and watch what is going on. Sex isn´t that important to me as it was, it´s no longer a field where my compulsions act...there is no "must" or "mustn´t" anymore - maybe I finally learned to relax.

I know the film you mentioned...isn´t it crazy how much fighting is surrounding us? I mean, it´s not only in this movie - I´ve seen a lot of lovers who act similarly (of course most of them don´t try to kill each other).

I know the word "dissing" - we use it as well in germany.^^
And I suggested that a guy feels dissed when a girl turns him down. This is what makes it hard for girls to say "no" or "slower". But if I don´t slow him down I don´t feel much...there is nothing behind it, no feelings, no connection, no energy, no depth, no room...it´s one-dimensional.

I didn´t know jerking off was like you described and it´s difficult for me put myself into a guy´s shoes when it comes to this. But ok, I got the idea. I will try to handle it appropriately.

[quote=Maso]If you are having plenty of sex and he is constantly jerking off he really needs to ask himself why—a question only he can answer. [/quote]

Well...he has his phases. He is not constantly jerking off and sometimes he even doesn´t seem to be interested in any sexual actings. But sometimes he just doesn´t seem to get enough and this feels like he was a baby constantly crying for "more"...at those times it´s not possible to simply lay down and relax, because he begins to play with his penis...maybe this is what guys do, I don´t know. The last few weeks he didn´t do this, he was more into cuddling.

[quote/]You also want to have him try to stop before he ejaculates, if he does it right he will feel a warm pleasure come over him. Emerson describes concentrating on the root of his penis, probably a good place for your boyfriend to start. [/quote]

Do you have a detailed prescription? I mean, at the moment karezza and stuff is out but someday it could be helpful.

[quote/]Last thing; establish a “no fault” orgasm policy. Orgasms happen, intentional or unintentional and you don’t need to fight about it. Having an orgasm doesn’t negate every other positive thing you have done with Karezza. Just move on to the next time, even if your boyfriend keeps having them. Like I said you can’t force him to like Karezza; you can encourage him and show him the benefits and he will likely follow you along in the practices. Love encourages many good feelings especially in the person giving love. [/quote]

I guess this is the same philosophy as I am experiencing those days...don´t force anything, just let go. It´s really relieving. I will tell everybody what observations I get from this new point of view. Smile

And now I have to stop here because I am very tired...