How do I convince him that karezza isn´t just making you horny?

Submitted by strawberry field on
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He is so stupid. He said to me: Ok, I will search for a girl who does give me orgasms.
It was a joke but I still don´t think it´s funny! Grr.

I think the problem was, that he went to fast and very close to orgasms, so he became horny. I asked him after the third intercourse if he likes it slow and long lasting and he said: yes, if I can fuck you afterwards. Well, I guess, he became too horny. Although I told him, stay on level 5-6, he went close to orgasms. I told him: If you do it slower, you won´t be horny afterwards and you can do it for hours...but he doesn´t seem to believe that doing this can be as satisfying as orgasms...he just didn´t experience it plus everybody around him says, orgasms are healthy and not ejaculating is not healthy. I am really angry about silly capitalism right now as it makes us all addicted and needy and brainwashed!

I think I have to give him some more information about karezza and what it can be (most of the information I gave him was about dopamine and the passion cycle), because he didn´t seem to understand from my explanations...or he didn´t believe me. And that means he doesn´t trust me and doesn´t take me seriously. He thinks this is only one of my "crazy" ideas...and that I simply want to forbid him orgasms. I didn´t even said to him: don´t come, I told him only to stay on level 5-6, but he now has some reluctance against me...

Although he now is reluctant, he was very open to try it....though I didn´t exactly told him what we do, I just gave instructions. For me it was really wonderful, though I had an orgasm the first time we tried (a really surprising one). The second time I just relaxed and felt great and after a while the need for an orgasm simply just went away...that was the point when I would have stopped but he wanted to go on...of course, he was horny. At the end of the third try I "allowed" him to come (he asked me if he was allowed), because I didn´t want to torture him and let him get the wrong idea of karezza. But he seems to have the wrong one anyway.

Well...how could I destroy the idea in his mind, that karezza is: you are getting very horny and you are not allowed to come and have to suffer from sexual frustration?

P.S.: I am still at his place so I can assemble your advices...and the second thing: I feel so heated since my first real karezza-experience. That is uncommon because usually I always feel cold. And my breasts are hurting a bit...but that might be because I am having my red days soon.

P.P.S.: I was easy for me not to come when we used the spooning-position...but for him it must have been as arousing as always...

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perhaps he will grow into this

maybe it's fine if you do Karezza and at the end he fucks you. He can come, you don't have to and everyone's happy.

Sometimes it takes a guy awhile to figure this out for himself.

You don't have to be on exactly the same page. If he's willing to maintain this for awhile and then come at the end, that might be fine for the moment. Then at some point he may decide not to come.

It takes awhile for our brains to reprogram. It takes awhile for us to notice the extra sensations that have always been there. We didn't feel it because we were too busy pursuing orgasms. But the more quiet, the more slowness, the more prolonged intercourse, the more likely it is that his brain and yours will start picking up on all this sensation.

At some point it becomes more pleasurable with Karezza than without it. 

Thanks for your perspective

Ok, thanks for your advice...and for a complete different perspective, that is very helpful. I will suggest that to him. It´s a good compromise.

But I still have doubts that his orgasming won´t lead into conventional sex behaviors...I don´t know if he is sensitive enough to feel the karezza benefits. Hm, I guess I just have to try out. Karezza is a way of experiencing and not goal-oriented...so if I set the goal to convince him I just might do the wrong thing, right? It is also hard for me to leave old behaviors behind.

But to tell something nice:

We do a lot of bonding behaviors and that gives me a warm feeling for him. We get along with each other very well and don´t argue (even not when I was angry with him, I could handle it). We are like two kittens playing around with each other and cuddling a lot. And our jokes are so funny, it´s unbelievable. Wink
I can see again how good our minds are matched.

this is just a start

sometimes it takes time to have this all sink in. It is a great sign you do a lot of bonding. 

Yes, goal oriented behaviors to get someone to try this are kind of self defeating. I'm an expert in this myself. What you can do is a lot of bonding, and avoid orgasm yourself, and he will begin tuning in to what you are doing and his sensations will build and he'll decide on his own to try this. 

That's the key really.

Just to mention

The inner logic and stringency of karezza is amazing...how every small part fits into the whole thing. If I do this I will get that - it´s something you can work with and if you are willing to learn and get to know the rules you will have the expected results (or something close to expectation). I don´t think karezza will disappoint me in a real unexpected way...if it does I will be able to point out which mistakes I made. Karezza makes sense, that is amazing!

Yes, I know that sounds a bit megalomaniac but I am so very fascinated by karezza that my mind is a bit overreacting. Wink

very interesting

This is an amazing dialogue! I love hearing it from the ladies perspective. I am more keen to have non-O sex, my wife is more heated for the orgasms.

Then again she is not the one who spent most of her life addicted to M and O's so why should she be as excited by non-O potential as me, the PM addict?

Your man is just responding to what feels right for him. I bet some of what you are suggesting is getting through to him.

This is a tricky subject

This is a tricky subject because you are right- we men are heavily programmed to think that if we don't ejaculate, we will explode, or something similarly terrible will happen. And you are right that if he goes fast and gets too heated up, he may actually need to come to relieve that tension.

He will have to come around to these ideas on his own terms. As long as he respects your own desire to not orgasm / keep things slow, then all you can do is just keep sharing the ideas with him without trying to force him. A huge issue for men is that we have a LOT of subconscious performance anxiety, whether we know it or not; if you present these ideas too forcefully, he may feel that you are just putting more pressure on him to perform in a certain way.

But you should definitely ask him to try going very slowly to test himself. Going fast is usually a subconscious way of maintaining arousal in order to make up for the lack of sensitivity that frequent ejaculation can cause. Ask him to enter you and remain perfectly still and see how long he can maintain an erection (while assuring him that it is TOTALLY OK if he doesn't!). That may begin to show him that he is desensitized, and he may be more open to these ideas.

The biggest way to sell this to a man is the promise of being a better lover! We all want to be great lovers, we just were never taught how.

I realize...

[quote=tornfromabook]Ask him to enter you and remain perfectly still and see how long he can maintain an erection (while assuring him that it is TOTALLY OK if he doesn't!). That may begin to show him that he is desensitized, and he may be more open to these ideas.

The biggest way to sell this to a man is the promise of being a better lover! We all want to be great lovers, we just were never taught how.[/quote]

Oh okay, this is because of his desensitization...

I think I have to show him more that everything he does is okay because I don´t moan or do other passionate stuff...that might give him the feeling it´s not "enough". It is and I have to show him. I just don´t know how to tell him he will be a better lover without indirectly saying he wasn´t yet Wink

If he needs something to read

you might try this book. It's available in German, I'm sure:

Tantric Sex For Men

However, I have to say (in all humility) that more men find our book's explanation convincing, perhaps because of all the science my husband helped me put into it.

It sounds like delicious lovemaking in any case. Remember to enjoy the journey even if the road has bumps. Drinks

@ Marnia

I think your book-advice is good as "Tantric orgasms for women" is also good (I just began to read).

I checked the german forum but it´s very small and not as full with good advices as your forum. Wink

strawberry field wrote:

[quote=strawberry field]He is so stupid. He said to me: Ok, I will search for a girl who does give me orgasms. It was a joke but I still don´t think it´s funny! Grr. I think the problem was, that he went to fast and very close to orgasms, so he became horny. I asked him after the third intercourse if he likes it slow and long lasting and he said: yes, if I can fuck you afterwards. Well, I guess, he became too horny. Although I told him, stay on level 5-6, he went close to orgasms. I told him: If you do it slower, you won´t be horny afterwards and you can do it for hours...but he doesn´t seem to believe that doing this can be as satisfying as orgasms...he just didn´t experience it plus everybody around him says, orgasms are healthy and not ejaculating is not healthy. [/quote]

Tell him he doesn't have to give up orgasms to have non-ejaculatory sex. It's the loss of "vital fluid" in men that is depleting, from what I understand. But, I think you also both must help each other, work together to not have genital orgasms...

I have heard that, when you do this type of lovemaking or energy cultivation, you're supposed to only go 90-something % toward orgasm. I only have solo cultivation experience, but, in my solo cultivation, I have reached a point where once in a while  I go 90, 100, beyond, and they last until I have to stop to catch my breath. And then, I can do it again if I want (I tend to want to)

And, I feel DAMN healthy afterwards, like the when you finish a workout feeling times 5.

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]with the potential goddess?[/quote]

Me? Wink

I will tell you in a new blog entry. I like things sorted - you know I am german Wink

Not going quite like I

Not going quite like I expected, but good in a way.... Don't want to post it all here, guess I'll put a new blog entry...

Basically the girl who lives an hour away rejected me and it was all my fault, and as for the hot girls at work, I must wait until I am truly ready for dating. This is from my gut feelings and the I ching...

Your man doesn't strike me as

Your man doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would be super successful at karezza. I hate to be a downer, but it is hard enough to reprogram even for two people wanting to practice karezza. The way you've described him and the way you relate doesn't really seem in alignment with karezza. If I were you I'd look for someone new to experiment with. Apologies for how egotistical it is for me to offer such advice.

Also, I disagree with Emerson's advice "maybe it's fine if you do Karezza and at the end he fucks you." If only one person is practicing, it is not karezza, in my opinion. This IS about getting on the same page and resonating on that deep level.

I don´t think you´re right.

You might have gotten the impression that he is the kind of guy who just wants to fuck, but my description was just an out-take of him...in fact: I have always been the one who wanted to have hot sex and he has been the one who wanted more cuddling.

He told me often, that he doesn´t feel much when having sex (though he moans a lot) and I think his sensations can be improved when I sensitize him for the gentle feelings that come along with karezza.

I think, what emerson meant was the power of a woman who can direct a man by her warm presence, by being receiving and open and patient (I think, Diana Richardson described it in one of her books) but doesn´t force him - this is why I should let him have his orgasms, to not force him. Hopefully he will begin to feel more sensations and want to experiment on his own because he realizes, there is more in sex than he thought.

As I told in another blog entry he himself went veeery slowly without me asking for and he could have stopped easily but decided to have an orgasm - I think because he still thinks he has to (otherwise would explode or something similar^^). But I know he FELT that he didn´t need it and just didn´t follow his feelings. But I am confident that he will begin to sense those feelings more and more.

I am not willing to try this "experiment" with another person because it´s not just about an "experiment" where I could just replace one mouse with another. We are a couple now for 3 years (in april) and he is the only person with whom I can be myself completely. I am not giving this away because karezza doesn´t work after having tried it for 3 times...if I will see there is no way of getting him on the train I can consider it but until then I stay patient and develop my femininity to be able to lead him.

strawberry field wrote:

[quote=strawberry field]I think, what emerson meant was the power of a woman who can direct a man by her warm presence, by being receiving and open and patient (I think, Diana Richardson described it in one of her books) but doesn´t force him - this is why I should let him have his orgasms, to not force him. Hopefully he will begin to feel more sensations and want to experiment on his own because he realizes, there is more in sex than he thought.[/quote]

This is exactly what I meant. I believe that we lead by example and that it takes time for your man to become more sensitized and more aware of sensations he is missing now...and through your example he will begin to become attracted to what you have and what you are doing, and will try it on his own without feeling coerced.

 

My apologies, I have only

My apologies, I have only read a few of your posts and quickly and the impression that I got from you was that your feelings for him are based out of a sense of addiction, you feel he has hurt you a lot in the past and were questioning whether to stay in the relationship, "other women see to be special to him quite easily", and also you started out this post describing how stupid he is. You also say he doesn't trust you or take you seriously.

Anyhow looking back on some of your posts I see now that you describe him as quite sensitive, liking to take things slow, needing something special to get aroused. This makes me think he could really take to Karezza! As you point out, if you are trying to control him to have him "prove" something, this will get in the way. I too have found that the sense of needing to prove our sexual responsiveness through performance or orgasm is what really gets in the way.

Yes, knowing when to stop is the hardest part in all of this. Allowing your partner to make his own choices about whether he is going to have an orgasm or not, especially after slow lovemaking, can be quite different than letting him "fuck you." Sorry, maybe this is just an issue of word association. For me "fucking" or the sensation of "being fucked" and having an orgasm or having my lover orgasm into me are two very different things, even though fucking usually has orgasm as its goal and ends in that. My point is that if one person is being encouraged to "fuck" and the other is trying to practice karezza, it will be very hard to meet up and synchronize when two people are on totally different levels.

Glad to hear you're clear on your desire to be with him. However, just because you've been with someone for three years doesn't mean its worth staying in. In my experience, I stayed much longer in sexually addictive relationships than I should have, with people who were simply not well-matched with me, and this of course caused all manner of inner turmoil and stress that was so unnecessary if I could have just recognized it was time to move on. Finally, I did. Since meeting my husband I've found it refreshing to know that there are no doubts as to whether he is right for me or not, and its amazing the amount of energy that is freed up for other things that normally in past relationships was caught up in figuring things out, being hurt, feeling conflicted about the person, etc. And one thing I've realized through experimenting with karezza is that I don't think that how well two people fit or don't fit together can just be chalked up to chemistry and whether or not they are having orgasms. I do feel some people are just intrinsically more well suited for one another and compatible, if not actually fated to be together, and the practice of karezza can help improve harmony whether you are not that well matched as well as if you are well matched, but I do not think that its true that if everyone practiced karezza in the relationship they are in, they would find out they are perfectly matched. I don't think karezza carried out succesffully is a replacement for deeper compatibilities that are also important.

Anyway, these are just words. I wish you the greatest bliss, peace, freedom and nourishment in your life!

you don´t have to apologize

Your point of view isn´t that far away from mine and as I read your first comment I reread my blog entries and found the same points as you did: I am addicted to him and he did hurt me often...and the other things you mentioned. But you know, there is always the other side - his other side - and of course it´s not only him bringing trouble into the relationship. So I decided to eliminate those factors I am the reason for (and my brain chemistry) - so I can see clearer. What I can tell so far is, that I am not as jealous as I used to be, I don´t wanna break up with him every 3 days anymore and I am not needy anymore. So those things are based upon brain chemistry (my conclusion) and have nothing (or not as much as they seemed to) to do with me and him as persons and if we match or not.

The wounds are left over, so this may be a sign, that we don´t match. But now I have to ask myself: where did they come from? Partly they are a result of brain chemistry (look for another mate, be jealous), but partly they come from disrespect, misunderstanding and feelings of being attacked (on both sides).

[quote]Since meeting my husband I've found it refreshing to know that there are no doubts as to whether he is right for me or not, and its amazing the amount of energy that is freed up for other things that normally in past relationships was caught up in figuring things out, being hurt, feeling conflicted about the person, etc. [/quote]

So if I am hurt by another person and there are some conflicts, we don´t match? Part of me agrees, but another part says, that there might be a reason for the conflicts that can be dissolved. I think the only way to be able to see the real reasons is to get clear in your mind and balance your brain chemistry. I don´t know how others do, but for me it´s necessary to figure out who the other person is and who I am and where we don´t match and if we can dissolve those conflicts before breaking up, I have to understand the whole thing. Maybe this is just stupid and another proof for my addiction to him, but I don´t wanna just break up because of silly misunderstandings or because everybody else would. I broke up with a friend for one time and it was a decision based on solid grounds and reasons, I even wrote her a letter in which I explained in detail why we don´t match.

I have the feeling that I got hurt by him because of my experiences in childhood and this is something I would experience in every relationship, I guess....I don´t know because this is my first and only relationship in life. Problems have always arisen when I got into a state of dramatization, lost my overview and fixated on something "bad" - which always came out to be a trigger from childhood.

[quote]My point is that if one person is being encouraged to "fuck" and the other is trying to practice karezza, it will be very hard to meet up and synchronize when two people are on totally different levels.[/quote]

I feel he is encouraged to try - because he is sensitive enough to sense the way I want it and I think he likes it, too. But for now there are not enough karezza-sessions I can build on.

[quote]Anyway, these are just words. I wish you the greatest bliss, peace, freedom and nourishment in your life![/quote]

Thank you. Smile
I think experience will show how this works out...not words.

You ask "So if I am hurt by

You ask "So if I am hurt by another person and there are some conflicts, we don´t match?" No, I guess I am just suggesting that I've found, within the context of knowing I've met my match, and feeling held and contained in that bigger sense of being matched, that small conflicts don't really have as big of an impact with him. The conflicts we do have never lead me to question whether or not I want to be with him. And I'm just amazed at how much energy is freed up by not having to constantly question the relationship, or be pulled back and forth between the part of me that thinks I should break up and the part of me that says I should stay in because of some belief I have formed that "actually this is all my stuff and it would be the same with someone else."

I had this same tendency to blame myself for the lack of incompatibility I had with another man who I loved very deeply who I was not at all sexually addicted to or even drawn to sexually, but I kept telling myself some story about how I didn't like sex with him because I was avoiding intimacy and was afraid of being totally loved. I tried soooo hard to stay with him, I ignored my instinct that we were not right, and the result was that I drew the whole thing out overly long and hurt him much more deeply when I left than I would have if I had just been honest with myself in the first place. I didn't know then what it felt like to have met "the one" - and when I did meet the one, we both recognized it IMMEDIATELY and there has been no turning back. I didn't have a frame of reference that that was even possible before meeting my husband. I was reaching the point where I really thought that I could be compatible with anyone if I could only deal with my "core issues" first. Now I think that we're in life to deal with our core issues for our whole life. We can't wait to deal with them first before we can have a fulfilling relationship. A well-matched mate will be a partner with us through our issues, but the whole time we will know that there is a larger context of love that holds it all, which puts all the mental stuff in perspective and makes it less necessary to go through emotionally draining drama.

With my husband, yes, some similar core issues have come up that came up in other relationships, but the context of the love and care that underlies it all allows them to be healed and worked with constructively. Part of the difficulty of being in a mis-matched, addictive relationship for me, in the past, was that my instinct was to leave, but my mental mind was always screwing with me and saying that the problem wasn't with our compatibility, but was because of faults of mine that if only I could perfect, would help me feel more compatible. I'm just saying I don't think this is always the case. It's always a good thing to reflect on yourself and own your bullshit, but I still don't think that managing to own your shit will compensate for a deep compatibility. And this can also turn into a pattern of being super hard on yourself - "If only I would grow up, etc." I'm saying I think this can really be a waste of energy.

Here's another possibility

I think sometimes we need "training relationships" in order to be ready for the next relationship. In other words, maybe all the steps are necessary and less time and effort are "wasted" than it seems.

Struggling

Your words seem to be true for me, but they also strike a nerve. You are describing my feelings so well (or how they shouldn´t be), that now I think I should leave him. On the other hand I think: I am not Cinderella waiting for my prince and I have exaggerated expectations. Before I met him I never had the feeling, that "this" is the "right" one and so I never had a relationship before I was 25. When I met him it was amazing how wonderful our minds matched, it felt like meeting the other half of my brain in another body.^^
Also our bodies match very well. But there are things where we don´t match and if I went on to find another mate who matches on more levels, I would feel like optimizing - like a business woman. This has a negative connotation.

[quote]The conflicts we do have never lead me to question whether or not I want to be with him. [/quote]

The conflicts we have very often lead to the question whether or not I want to be with him. But you know, this decreased over the time and we both know now, that when we are asking the question this is just an expression of our actual feelings of being estranged and after a while we find back to each other. We have parted and reunited so often that we now know, we always find back to each other - seen from a wider point of view.

I don´t want to wait another 25 years until I find my prince...I still have hope that we will learn to accept the other ones individuality. All fights come from the disability to accept that there are parts in the other one which are just NOT like mine and how I WANT them to be. Respect means to let the other one be as he/she is and this a hard way for everyone. I have the feeling we really made some progress in this area, though it lasted a long time and needed many fights. So whether we break up or not we will at least have learned this.

What I don´t like and what even may be a reason I stay with him is the general advice everybody gives when telling them about trouble in relationship: split up! The smallest conflict let the people come to this conclusion - for me this just seems to be an expression of today´s society where everything can be substituted very easily.

[quote]makes it less necessary to go through emotionally draining drama.[/quote]

This sounds to me kind of unbelievable, it has always been a drama with boys...this is also the reason why I think it´s my fault and I have to change myself...

[quote]I'm saying I think this can really be a waste of energy.[/quote]

At least it can be more exhausting than necessary to learn the lessons I have to learn...

You seem to have much more experience than me and your thoughts seem to be grounded on a solid base. A part of me has to admit that my relationship is not the right one, a part I never wanted to be true. But there is still another part of me which wants to give us more time to come together and reach a level where we both can accept the disparity between me and him. Well, I have mixed feelings and I think you can see my confusion in the text. But I also have the feeling to have given up "something", which may be the relationship itself, yet I don´t know. I do not contact him and he has not contacted me so far (well, one sentence on skype) - I just don´t want to talk to him. I guess, everybody has always been right in telling me that we should break up...love isn´t enough.

Unfortunately we will go on holiday next weekend...and we will be very lovely and cuddle all the time like we always do and afterwards I won´t be able to split up - again. The bonding behaviors are strong and they don´t just make well-matched couples stay together, they also do it with couples that don´t match very well...
But after all: Those depressive and pessimistic thoughts are maybe just made up by a mind that suffers from withdrawal symptoms! I will take a few more weeks to make up my mind...

Well, a bit off topic I guess...sorry.

Don't take my words so

Don't take my words so seriously. I really don't mean to give advice, just something to reflect on. Everyone's experience is different and in the end, I had to go through my process so I would learn what I did through going through it. I guess its unfair to describe those experiences of mine as a "waste" of energy. All I know is that all that back and forth and wondering consumed a LOT of energy, energy which I am really grateful that I have available for other things now. Just my two cents. Honor your own insight and journey and don't take this as another reason to second-guess yourself. I hope my confrontation helps you get clearer rather than less.

Bottom line, the situation we find ourselves in is the one we choose to be in. And no experience or reality is more superior or enlightened than the next. I think every moment, every interaction with every human offers infinite potential for growth. And besides, meeting "the one" is not improtant for everyone. It certainly was for me.

But watch the stories you tell yourself that might make you sabotage what you really want, ie, "I don´t want to wait another 25 years until I find my prince." Why would it need to be so?

This is what a lot of people said to me

..."don´t take my words so seriously. " Yeah, I tend to take words seriously, which makes things harder to deal with than necessary. Thanks for your hint, I was running into self-made stress. Now I can see it more relatively. Thanks for your perspective.

Yeah, my karma was that I had

Yeah, my karma was that I had to tell myself similar self-sabotaging stories because I needed to stall myself for long enough for my husband's age to get up to 22. I was 31 when i met him. If I hadn't self-sabotaged for so long I never would have met him. So all timing is perfect. I think my story of sabotage was something along the lines of telling myself that "Settling down is settling for less." I was using my sense of fierce independence as a cover-up for my fear of being truly loved. I had the help of some plant spirit medicine which helped me to grieve letting go of former lovers I thought I was already over. It allowed me to really let go of them and also to get in touch with my true desire to meet my mate. Then my husband showed up two weeks later. He just happened to be 22 and I was then given another opportunity to self-sabotage. I could have told myself the story that he was too young, but I stopped that one dead in its tracks. I knew the love and connection was too good to pass up, and that my saboteur hadn't a chance this time.

Let m

[quote=hotspring] I had the help of some plant spirit medicine which helped me to grieve letting go of former lovers I thought I was already over. It allowed me to really let go of them and also to get in touch with my true desire to meet my mate.[/quote]

What plant was it? Let me guess, bleeding heart?

 

P.S. But I DO want to say

P.S. But I DO want to say that I think that abstaining from orgasms, even if your partner isn't, most definitely does help to balance out one's own brain chemistry, and is extremely useful in contributing to greater harmony. In my opinion though, simply abstaining from orgasm is not the same thing as practicing karezza, although its an essential part of the practice.

In the end, we can't control whether our partner will come on board or not, but we can greatly influence our own balance, so it makes sense to put the majority of our energy on ourselves and the changes we want to make in ourselves, rather than what we want to see in our partner.

But then this does create a certain dilemma at some point if both people are going on different tracks, because if I have been cultivating solo karezza (ie, not just abstaining from orgasm, but tuning in to subtle sensations in my body and practicing receptivity, spaciousness, heartfelt presence and gentleness), what happens then is that I am much more sensitive overall and I am therefore much more turned off by "fucking", which creates an incompatibility when making love if you've given your partner permission to stay in fucking mode.

I find when i practice solo karezza that I give myself more permission to be honest with myself and my lover that "fucking" doesn't interest me in the least - whereas if I am not practicing solo karezza, and my priority is to come together with my lover, then slow love making and fucking are both great. This just goes to show how plastic our brains are, and that in some ways it is very risky to take on the experiment of karezza if both people are not on board, because if two people aren't willing to buy into the same idea of what is rewarding sexually, or they have started to find different things rewarding, they will start to become sexually incompatible. It's quite a conundrum. The fact that we can so easily change our reward circuitry is encouraging, the fact that we might not agree on how to change it is not. I've found that with my husband, the idea of being deliberate in sex, or of changing anything, is in itself threatening because it implies a criticism or a lack of satisfaction with him as a lover and it also implies that the way nature designed things is flawed. This is a big hurdle to get over.

I think that faith in "natural" is a bit misplaced

if sustainability is the goal. Suatainability, after all, is not nature's goal.

I find it intriguing that other primates engage in "sexy" behavior without ejaculation (all the time). How do we know there's only one "natural" way for humans to arrange their sexuality?  The Aka and Ngandu tribes ejaculate more than once a night when trying to get their wives pregnant and "nourish" an embryo...and then have a taboo against all intercourse until the kid can walk (they're hunter-gatherers). They are known for their attentive fathers. *chuckle*

In short, finding balance may be quite "natural," and karezza is just one way to do it. Kosher sex is another.

Yeah, "natural" is such a

Yeah, "natural" is such a tricky word. But it seems to me like on the one hand you say that faith in nature/biology is misplaced, but then point out that there is huge variety in what is natural, and some of it is quite healthy. Perhaps the problem is that we are confusing our own culture's particular neurological tendencies with our sense of what is natural and biological, and concluding that nature doesn't have our best interests in mind, when actually there are many cases of human societies that have practices that are more sustainable and which they consider natural.

In any case my point is that this resistance to doing what people consider "natural", ie, have an orgasm - is the explanation that many people, especially men, will give for being resistant to something like karezza. I think its perfectly natural, and more so for women, to include a lot of cuddling and be less goal oriented when it comes to sex, but we're having to reclaim our natural biological tendencies from a male-dominated culture.

same happened to me

[quote] what happens then is that I am much more sensitive overall and I am therefore much more turned off by "fucking", which creates an incompatibility when making love if you've given your partner permission to stay in fucking mode.[/quote]

Same happened to me when I let him "fuck me" in the end...I found it boring and unnecessary - but this wasn´t about me, it was my admission to his way of experience and hopefully he will learn to appreciate my way as well.

[quote]I've found that with my husband, the idea of being deliberate in sex, or of changing anything, is in itself threatening because it implies a criticism or a lack of satisfaction with him as a lover[/quote]

This is an important thing and I really have to show him that I love him and the way he makes love to me, because I know for sure that he would be really hurt if he got the impression of not being a good lover. But the more I cuddle him the less he asks for self-affirmation...but I think he also has to hear it in words.

I´m just not good in words and I also don´t know how to tell him that his lack of sensations probably comes from, well...fucking...and that he will sense more when we do it slowly. I´ve experienced that you can´t just say things directly because it probably will be seen as "dogmatic" and create some resistance - the most difficult part is to tell him without "coming out of the blue". So if anybody has an idea how to phrase this, let me know. Smile

Thanks for your advice

but do you mean I should make sounds of contentment and pleasure to show him that he is a good lover? Well, that makes sense, but my question was how I can tell him, that his lack of sensation comes from fucking and that he can feel more sensations if he makes slow sex...

It's hard but well worth it

As a man I can say it takes some years to get rid of the feeling you must ejaculate, but it's really worth it. Now I can be very close for an hour and then stop just feeling a lot of love. Last time I ejaculated, a half year ago, I noticed it's really no good. It took 1-2 weeks untill I got back the nice happy mood. My theory of what happens when you don't ejaculate is that the seemen is leaking out through prostata to anus and it takes some years until those channels are developed. But when they are in place you can easily get horny but can also turn off without any need to ejaculate. You are then always in a balanced happy mood.
I also know how hard it is to convice a partner. My wife is not intrested ín this and always wants her orgasm in the end. We have accepted each others positions, but I feel sad about it as the relation would be on a much more spiritual level if we shared the tantric or karezza love.
My best wishes that you succeed to convince your husband one day!