Is it all about monogamy? ♥

Submitted by tornfromabook on
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So it seems to me that the goal of most people here (and us, when we first came here) was to find out how to make monogamous relationships easier and more enjoyable, by reversing the cultural and physiological programming so many of us adopted.

But lately, my husband and I have been feeling like... it isn't a BAD thing to want to touch, cuddle, kiss, and love other people. I mean, what's the harm in more love, more bonding between individuals? We don't want to have sex with everyone around us. We don't objectify others or fantasize about them. We just want to go on dates and watch movies with those around us who we find we share that .... special chemistry.

Does anyone have experience with or information on "polyamory" without the mindset of "it's natural for people to want to fuck lots of other people"? We feel an instinct to bond with and be physically close to others, now that we feel what a really bonded human physical relationship feels like. It's something we want to explore intellectually only, for now. We seem to change our mind about things quite often :)

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

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Monogamy

Here is my two cents

I can see were you are coming from. If it feels so good to bond with one person, then how much better would it be if I could have the same bond with multiple people?

It sounds good, but it may not work the way you are expecting.

Developing deep bonds with a person takes time. It requires that you become very intimately familiar with each other. You have to know how to really relax with that person and be open and natural with them.

Monogamous relationship supports that kind of deep bonding. The longer that you are with someone the more intimate you can become with them. You gradually peel back the layers of their personality to access deeper and deeper levels of who they are. Even couples who have been married for decades can still find new things about each other to explore.

You cannot do that kind of deep bonding and intimacy with multiple partners. Early in life you try out different people and jump from one relationship to the next. However, most people will eventually find one person who catpures their attention. They decide that they want to go deeper with this person. At that point all other options are closed off. This relationship may eventually end, but for now they are committed to exploring this one person.

Barry Long has some great materials on this subject.

I guess the thing you need to ask yourself is this: Do I want variety or do I want depth.

If you just want surface level intimacy then you can have multiple partners. However, with multiple partners you will never get beyond the surface. To go really deep you need to be in a committed monogamous relationship.

It is like digging holes. Multiple partners is like digging a bit here, and then digging a bit over there, and then digging a bit in a third location. At the end of the day you have lots of shallow holes. Monogamy is like digging in one place all day. At the end of the day you have one deep hole.

The one thing I seriously doubt is that you could have multiple deep holes. You don't have the time and energy for that. No one does.

This is basically what we thought, too.

This is basically the conclusion we came to a couple months ago, when we talked about what marriage meant to us. One deep hole vs. many shallow ones. The illusion is that you are getting "more" by being with more people, but it's unavoidable, due to the constriction of time and space, that one or all of your relationships would suffer.

But there are a couple things that I have started thinking about differently.

"You have to know how to really relax with that person and be open and natural with them."

Do you? Is this necessarily hard to do? I find it increasingly easy to be myself around others, the more emotionally mature I become. Now that I have worked away so much of that culturally hardened exterior of how I "should" act around others, I feel I can be my genuine self and get to know other folks much more quickly than I used to.

This line of reasoning, of love being limited, is how we ended up with NO friends. For the first few years of our relationship, all our other relationships deteriorated because we spent ALL of our time and energy on each other. Now we wish we still had those friends, so we had someone to talk to about interests that we don't share, for example.

Are friends not worth having, because they take away time and energy from your marriage? What we feel ourselves wanting is intimate friendships with others. People you care about, and can give a hug and a kiss when you run into them on the street. People you can go out to dinner with and have long conversations with, and maybe even walk arm in arm or hold hands with. If I did this with my friends at work, people would look at me funny and wonder why I was thinking about cheating on my husband. I see this intimate behavior a lot more in European cultures, where people are more physically relaxed with their close friends and it isn't considered "cheating" to want to be close physically to someone.

I've been doing a lot of reading about Buddhism lately, and I feel my heart opening and expanding to others on a daily basis. I just can't maintain my old mentality that I only have so much love to give, that I can only give it to one person. Like I said, I'm not talking about having sex with lots of people, but allowing myself to open up and be intimate with others... a rejection of the American belief that people are either having sex or not, are either in love or don't love at all...

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

Friendships

I must have misinterpreted your post. I thought you were talking about having multiple intimate partners. My apologies.

Of course it is possible to have deep friendships as well as a healthy monagomous marriage. There is no one person on this planet that can meet all of your social and emotional needs. Thus, friendships are important.

My wife and I have also had many of our friendships fall to the wayside. However, that is not because we focused too much on each other. It is because our time and energy got sucked up by being parents. Now that our kids are getting older my wife is starting to miss her friends more. She misses having coffee with a friend to just chat and feel connected. My wife brought this up a while ago and then she blushed and said "of course, you will always be my real best friend." I laughed and said "there is room in your life for both a husband and a best friend."

Sometimes what my wife needs is NOT her intimate lover. Sometimes she just wants a friend who she can talk to and bounce ideas off of. She may even want someone that she can talk to about me. That is great. It would be nice for her to vent about me rather than at me sometimes :)

Yes, we miss having friends.

I think for a long time, we fooled ourselves into thinking that we only needed one person, each other. I think it took having kids for us to regain our identity as individuals, and realize that we have interests the other does not!

But I want the kind of friends that seem to be more more normal outside the US- friends you can fall asleep watching a movie with. Friends you can hug and kiss. Friends you can love and not feel like you are cheating on your spouse with. My husband had a circle of friends kind of like this when we was in college... of course, there was a lot of inter-dating in this circle of friends. But they all loved each other and were very affectionate with each other.

I guess I am just high on this feeling of purity in sexual relations, that karezza brings. And I want to bond with others through physical touch (not necessarily sex). I feel brimming with love for others and I just want to hold their hand and say "it's ok, you are worthy of love too".

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

Your question

I can't speak to the polyamory part because that is not something that is in my nature...but I will try to answer your first question, "Is it all about monogamy?"

For me, the word "monogamy" means some kind of label or goal you put on your relationship just for the sake of doing so (because it's expected in our society and in most marriages/committed relationships).

That is not why I do karezza with my beloved. I am not trying to make it easier to achieve a goal of monogamy with him.

I do it because it's the essence of pure love and ecstasy and trust and being totally in the moment. Over time, I feel safer and safer with him and that allows me to open up my divine femininity to him because he has earned that place with me. And in return, he feels and loved and wanted and finally at "home"~~the novelty-seeking, the wandering mind, the unsatisfied heart...it goes away.

He told me the other day he cannot live his entire life without "this" (meaning our lovemaking). It is that special. It is what I have always *thought* lovemaking should be, but didn't know how to achieve it.

When I let go, it creates heaven for both of us. He can, in the words of my beloved John Mayer, "Pitch a tent in my vagina and camp out over the weekend" lol. I *think* this is what most, if not all, men are seeking. (please chime in, men, if this is not correct!) To be completely, totally, and unequivocally loved, wanted, accepted and needed in this physical way. And for lovemaking to be *both* partners giving equally~~both minds being right there in the moment, loving each other and feeling each other.

But I can only imagine if I were in multiple relationships, my vagina would not respond in an open and loving and receptive way. It would be closed off to this type of intimacy. It has taken years of practice and loving each other to get to this point.

And to quote Louie, the hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

That is why I do this type of lovemaking...it fulfills and satisfies me on every level of my body, mind and soul. I now cannot imagine it any other way.

I try not to have expectations about my future with my beloved (I try very hard not to live that way~~in the future), but if things were to come to a point where we felt it best to separate, I know I would seek out another relationship where I could get to this level of intimacy again. But I could not do it *simultaneously* while I am in this relationship. It's just not possible. It's giving every inch and every cell of yourself to someone and there is no energy left to give it to someone else in this way.

Sorry for the long post, but I just wanted to contribute my thoughts as to the "why" behind karezza/tantra~~for me~~it's much more than trying to create "glue" for my relationship. It's the reason I exist here on earth, as hokey as that sounds.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment....

"Over time, I feel safer and safer with him and that allows me to open up my divine femininity to him because he has earned that place with me. "

This is how I felt in the past. That my feminine grace was sacred, and my husband earned access ro my love because he proved to me that I was safe with him, that he loved me exactly how I was. But this is fear-based- that I am "shut off" to others until they prove they won't hurt me. I now don't feel afraid to give love to others, because I don't know if I will get it in return, or will even be hurt in return. I feel like... everyone needs love. Everyone deserves love. And I have love to give.

"And in return, he feels and loved and wanted and finally at "home"~~the novelty-seeking, the wandering mind, the unsatisfied heart...it goes away."

I don't want novelty. I'm not unsatisfied. I only started thinking like this BECAUSE I feel so satisfied, so at home, so solid in our relationship. Like I"m not afraid anymore, not afraid of others rejecting or hurting me, because I will always have him and our love. We have healed each other and continue to grow together as people... why can't we extend this gift we have learned to others?

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

I'm not sure

I'm not sure who you are trying to convince? Smile As I said above, I was not commenting on the polyamory part of your question, just the "why are you here" portion~~I really don't have an opinion on what you do with your "extra" love~~that's your business.

I was just trying to explain that not everyone is doing karezza as a means to "keep" a lover. I do it because I love it~~it's the best lovemaking I've ever experienced and has opened me up so I can now give myself to my lover completely. I choose to do it with just one person, not out of fear, but because this is the person I am supposed to share it with~~the universe brought us together and that's just the way it is~~

Good luck to you in whatever you do!

Sorry, got off track.

Thanks, I really appreciated your comment and it makes sense... that you practice karezza because of how it makes you feel with your current partner, not because it will somehow guarantee you will be together forever. But the very name of the website "reuniting", and the themes of many blogs seems to be, "how do I fix things with my partner?"and I'm just wondering what happens after that part... where you get to the level where you feel close all the time and you don't want to watch porn or have sex with other people. Now what? I feel myself wanting to open up to others, and share what I have learned in a personal way. I will leave the book writing to Marnia, I know that's one way of sharing with others :)

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

Sharing

Well, it's certainly possible to spread the love and knowledge without spreading your legs, lol (I hope you know I am saying this with a grin~~I'm not judging you).

Diana Richardson has done a fabulous job of teaching people about this type of lovemaking through her books (I am an avid student of hers)~~and if I were to come across someone who seemed like they ready for this knowledge, I would share her books with them (or Marnia's, depending upon the type of person and the situation). I also think I could do a very good job of communicating with someone through words if they were interested in it. No different than how I share my knowledge of horses with others, or my vegan/plant-based diet, or anything else I happen to know a lot about. I am all about sharing love and helping others...but my vagina belongs to my beloved.

Being in a sexual/love relationship takes a lot of dedication and energy...it's all the energy I have to devote to my beloved and my horses and everything else I love to do in my life. I can only imagine the turmoil there would be if I tried to bring another "love interest" into my life. I'm afraid I wouldn't do a very good job of it. And I don't have children!

I think you nailed it quite

I think you nailed it quite beautifully Rachel. As usual you have a wonderful way of conveying the value of this way of lovemaking. You're a great resource here, and I'm glad you're still active in the forum. It's important people have a sense that this is actually possible and what it is like as a way of life, not just an experiment.

The ideas and labels we use to define our lives - "married, polyamorous, monogomous" etc are exactly that - labels. As humans we can get caught up in a lot of mental masturbation about how we label our relationships, what that means to us, how it differs from other's views of that term, how it expands or limits what is possible, etc. Of course its important for a couple to have a common sense of what their relationship means and where they want it to go, where the edge is, how safe they feel in being there. But on a basic level I think these concepts about relating can become a real distraction from actual loving.

My opinion is that love is more vast, infinite, universal, and unlimited than any of us can ever imagine in our wildest dreams, and that the intimacy of love knows no bounds - BUT, being infinite, it delights in being manifest on the relativistic realm. The absolute and the relative love to make love. They need eachother. The infinite and the finite define one another. They cannot be torn apart. We may strive for ideals, we may balk at limitations, we may seek new potentials - but every moment, every situation, no matter how seemingly unencumbered from form, no matter how defined and contained and grounded in particulars, is infinite, IMHO.

If you look at the fractal nature of reality, we see that infinity goes in BOTH directions - infinitely expanding, infinitely contracting. That means that the form, the container, the limitation that we thought was confining us actually isn't at all. You just have to go into infinity in the opposite direction.

Our culture values more expansive, external, yang movements of consciousness. Meanwile, it is the yin, magnetic, vaccuum energy that is the energy which makes expansion expansive. Centripital and centrifugal, electric and magnetic, are, like the masculine and feminine, dancing together creating a polarity field in which creation can occur.

I think this idea that infinity only goes out to the horizon towards father sky, breaking containers, is a very incomplete view of the world. I think most of the constraints and stresses surrounding those constraints are self-imposed illusions that we hallucinated up in the first place. Don't like the containers? Why do you choose to believe in them then? The idea that anything is restrictive is a restriction in itself. Once you break out of one container, one egg, you will probably find yourself in another. It might be bigger than the last one, but it will likely still be a container because wholes contain one another. Maybe eventually you'll grow out of that one, but humans, being earthly creatures, usually need a sense of orientation in space and a frame of reference for where they are (ie, a container).

The idea that we could get rid of our earthly limitation, our limitations in ability to love, and become the love that is the universe, ie, become enlightened, is certainly a noble goal, but if it is available, I think we shouldn't limit our idea of where that is or is not possible. If enlightenment is possible at all, it is up to us and always available, not up to the relativistic container/scenario/definition, etc. Transcending dualistic mind means getting over all of this. The ultimate dharma teacher is any life situation you happen to be in.

One solution, maybe requiring less wheel-spinning, isn't to break the constraint, but to find infinity within the embrace of the container. Either way, whether you are descending into the infinite magnetic vaccuum of the Mater or free-falling into the infinite electric expanse of Pater, ability to surrender will make the difference between enjoyment and terror. Infinity isn't going anywhere. It's not for sale and never was. So we can relax. We're not limited and never were.

For us women, perhaps because energetically we are at the magnetic pole, containers of safety can lend themselves as perfect habitats for surrender. And since sex takes place inside a woman's body, it makes sense that men also want to be contained, sheltered, at home in a safe place. I think both sexes want safety, and both want infinity. And both can be found wherever we want to create them.

If you want to love, do so. I really do think its as simple as that. The simplicity of love makes it hard for us to live in Love. Because we love the complex.

Thank you

Thank you, Hotspring, for writing this lovely piece (which I have read over and over) and for your kind words (I'm very glad you drop in on occasion as well!).

If anyone reads her post and doesn't quite understand it the first time, please go back and try again. And again. It's so beautiful.

I love this: "That means that the form, the container, the limitation that we thought was confining us actually isn't at all. You just have to go into infinity in the opposite direction."

Yes.

As a woman, I find the more I both surrender *and* give (yes, at the same time which *is* entirely possible during lovemaking, although I never would have understood it before), the more infinite the love becomes. It's a sensation of free-falling while being safe and secure simultaneously. Amazing stuff. And not a day goes by where I am not grateful I was given this opportunity in my life, with this person, at this time, to experience it. And I've learned the hard way that when the universe blesses you, it's best not to f*ck it up. Smile

thank you

This: "One solution, maybe requiring less wheel-spinning, isn't to break the constraint, but to find infinity within the embrace of the container. Either way, whether you are descending into the infinite magnetic vaccuum of the Mater or free-falling into the infinite electric expanse of Pater, ability to surrender will make the difference between enjoyment and terror. Infinity isn't going anywhere. It's not for sale and never was. So we can relax. We're not limited and never were."

So beautiful. Thank you Hotspring.

i have no experience

but I was asking because I wondered where this had come from. It can come from a balanced brain or a dopamine seeking dealio. Nothing wrong with either one but it is helpful to remember that orgasms can cause us to have that dopamine perspective and make us hungry for things. 

What I like about Karezza is that I am not hungry so much anymore. And when I am, I observe it and don't act on it, and realize it's just another thought, and it will probably go away or have its day and become transmuted into something else.

Sometimes I have thoughts of lack, and then I label them and wait and usually they disappear. I don't want for anything. It can be a relaxing way to live.

On the other hand, anything entangling me with another couple on a sexual sphere wouldn't e something I'd want. It sounds complicated and what's the point. Just my own personal perspective on it. What would make you want to complicate your life like this? It sounds like an invitation for Drama Land.

 

I'm not hungry.

I'm not hungry. I feel like I just harvested 200 apples from my orchard, I'm full to bursting, and I want to share the bounty. My life isn't lacking anything but friendship. I want to show everyone this love I have found, by loving them.

Sex is a different story. Now that we have conceived and raised a child together, we consider sex to be something not taken lightly!

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

It doesn't follow

It doesn't follow that if I have one piece of cheesecake, more pieces will be more fulfilling.

Not does it follow that if I have more orgasms than needed, ill be happier.

Karezza has natural limits: it doesn't follow that the sense of touch will be satisfied with touch and touch alone. Rather, the end or goal of karezza touch should be serenity of spirit.

The traditional analysis of temperance fails to recognise the formative role of sufficient touch in human life, but it is like eating the whole cheesecake to suppose that more touch equals more satisfaction. Touch and intimacy are a means to an end: the end is a well-lived happy successful life.

Check out this study of extreme temperance: St Teresa here didn't avoid touch, but rather DEPENDED on touch to do her healing work and to practice temperance:

http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/01/15/mother-teresa-of-calcutta-...

I have more love to give

I have more love to give, I don't want more love from other people. I have all the love I need, from inside myself and from my family. It's not a more cheesecake mentality, it's a "here, have some of my cheesecake! It's infinite!" mentality.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

more to give

I had a similar experience years ago. Is there a particular couple that you have in mind where this chemistry has already developed?

Tread carefully here. My own experience was that I felt incredibly self-fulfilled, in love with my partner, and we both became very close to this other couple. When we took it to the next level, the intimacy between myself and my husband took a nose dive. Everything went out of control. Jealousies developed when the four of us were together. Just hanging out became so complicated because someone might want to make love with someone else and it might not be compatible with what all four people are feeling. My feelings for my husband seemed to dissolve. I met someone new, and within a short time packed my bags and left. It was so easy.

Looking back, the wife in the other couple was really the initiator because she kept flirting subtly with my husband. I was close to her and her husband, but he and I didn't flirt like that, we had more of a respect for one another. My husband started wanting to do more and more fun things with them and that's how it developed.

No no, definitely no couple

No no, definitely no couple we have in mind. Only people we pass by in life, who we feel that certain chemistry with (the same chemistry we have, which allowed us to bond so quickly as a new couple).

I think there is an issue here, with defining the word monogamy. Everyone seems to think we want to have sex with other people. I guess most people define monogamy as only having sex with one person. I was defining it more in the matters of the heart.... of only loving one person and only spending your time and energy on your relationship with that person (which naturally includes sex). I'm challenging that concept. Things get a little trickier when you throw sex in the mix...

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

On the contrary,

I find that a stable relationship is what enables me to give back so much to the world.

I applaud your desire to share your energy. Just make sure you figure out what form that gift is supposed to take, as the journey will be a lot more enjoyable. Do some inner listening, and if you get a green light, go for it. If not, keep asking.

it sure does!

I actually regret the experience, but I was very young and I learned to forgive myself.

Currently, I'm single. I have very close friendships with several men. No sex is involved with any of them, but I care deeply for two of them and they for me.

It sounds like this is more the type of sharing you're referring to, except you have a partner.

Right.

I feel like, culturally, this is off-limits because it would be considered too intimate a relationship to have outside of z marriage. And I guess I came here to ask- is this off limits? Can I have an intimate bond with more than one person, or is the traditional definition of monogamy the goal of learning all this stuff about bonding?

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

Let Me Summarize You Position

Let me see if I understand your position correctly; you and your husband are practicing Karezza to bond and build intimacy in your relationship. You enjoyed it so much and feel so close to each other that now you want to go out and bone other random people; you stated not couple swapping like Elira had done, but people with whom you simply have chemistry. This you said is for the benefit of others because you have so much love to give—that makes you what, sort of sexual missionaries?

Last year I took at philosophy class, a lower division core requirement at our university. You better sign up for that class. One of the sections was logic. The logical inconsistencies in your post sound like we are on “opposite day”.

I looked at your post the other day and wanted to comment but had a study group to go to for my Strength of Materials class. Yeah, not as exciting as sex but I still have to pass the class. I am glad I waited to comment though. There are certain people on this site who can normally be relied upon for a voice of reason, Rachel, Emerson, Louie, and Marnia all made very succinct comments. I am glad I was able to read their comments to your post. None of us care who you are doing it with or how many you are doing. Maybe Rachel’s question sums it up, “I'm not sure who you are trying to convince?”

Couple Swapping

Yes Maso, that is exactly what it's called. I offered that very intimate story because it may help someone else. It made me feel very vulnerable to share it, but I trusted that others would understand that.

Let me be real clear here: My partner and I did this once, and within 3 weeks, my marriage was over. Now, it probably wasn't as strong as I thought, but I really wish it hadn't ended like that.

Thanks for Sharing Your Experience, Hope They Listen

Elira, I hope that Tornfromabook appreciates your story and learns from the hurt that you experienced. Even good relationships can be destroyed by one wrong decision. You probably thought at the time what you and your ex-husband did was innocent enough, unfortunately you can’t always know the hearts of other people involved. You sound like a really good and caring person, I am certain that you will find one special person to be with again.

Ok...

I feel like I am repeating this a lot- we do NOT want to bone random people. I guess I should have just stated that more clearly in the original post.

Loving others is what comes naturally. It's only cultural conditioning that prevents us from giving love freely to ourselves and others. That's why we all ended up on this site- to heal the damage we had done to ourselves and our relationships from a lack of love.

Now that I know what it is like for energy to flow freely between myself and my husband, and I don't feel depleted all the time from constant orgasms, and I am freed from that "horny" sexual desire for other people.... I want to take the next step. I want to conquer that boundary binding me, that says I'm married and I'm only allowed to love one person, to be close to one person, because somehow love is limited.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

what I hear now

is "I have so much love. I'm spilling over. I crave sharing love with other loving couples."

I totally get that. I feel the same way actually. I would love to have loving relationships with others. Karezza has created room in my life for more of that. Is this closer to what you are expressing?

Yes!

But society tells me "No, you can't have friends that you love and express love to, because you're married". I'm expected to secretly want to have sex with my male friends (which I don't), or to not have any male friends, for example.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

I dont get it

What I think I get is that you want to "open your hearts" to other people with whom you feel a special chemistry not "bone random people".

what I am having trouble with is everybody's (not just yours) acceptance of a certain way of thinking about happiness (and about relationship) which for me is already much too alienated and on the model of some kind of one dimensional economic thinking. (actually even calling the exchanges "exchanges" bugs me...)

I don't believe in "exchanges" or "gifts" since both imply unilateral ownership or prerogative over that which is exchanged or given, an ownership usually understood to be sufficiently established by "might" (when you think of it we all seem to feel we own our own bodies simply because we have more control or "might" over them then anybody else, but do we have the right to unilaterally do whatever we want with something (the right of property over it) simply because we have the "might" to do so? Do we not rather have the responsibility to find out how to be in right relationship--in generally healing relationship--with whatever it is, whether we can successfully coerce things or not?)

in other words if something "belongs-with" (not belongs-to) you, it belongs-with you only as long as, and to the extent that, both you and it and the world around you are demonstrably helped and enhanced by being in whatever kind of relationship or situation you are in together. If and when something or someone doesn't belong-with you in that particular way it means Nobody is being healed or helped by the current situation and so some kind of changes need to be considered, negotiated, consented to, and experimented with until some different kind of coevolutionary right relationship is temporarily arrived at again. This requires a culture of regular inner and outer checking-in of course since this things change, but what else are humans supposed to be doing? Anyway there is no room in this for any conceptions of "private" or even "public" forms of property in the sense of "belonging-to", whether this is transmitted through exchange or through charity or any other way.

The point is that happiness is neither about owning things, exchanging things or to giving anything away; it seems to me that happiness exists in helping to get and maintain ourselves in right relationship inwardly with ourselves and outwardly with others.

Life is not some kind of "Cosmic Mall" in which we are all shopping for some private relationship happiness which (if we are lucky) we can get enough of to give to others less fortunate or something. We are are here for some purpose of inner and outer healing and finding and living that purpose in right relationship (which implies and ongoing process of acknowledging and dealing with our own shit), is the only "gift" we can give to anybody. If we are not living our purpose and acknowledging and dealing with our shit, how are we to even to know enough about the purpose of anything else to know what to "give" to who even if that basic concept made sense?

The question is not "how much do we have to share" but what, (and where, how and with whom) are we supposed to be doing what we are doing (in general and from moment to moment) such that we are cultivating and bringing out the good in both ourselves and the world around us. A deep happiness can come from consistently and truthfully asking and answering the latter kind of question and the acting as best one can on the answer, even though such action my lead to say, getting wrongfully arrested as some Occupy Wall Steet camp out...

Given that the world around us is busy disintegrating ecologically economically socially and in most other ways, it seems that most peoples conception of happiness is pretty damn blinkered and alienated--the kind of "happiness" that requires studiously cultivated habit of not thinking about 90% of what is going on outwardly (and really about the same percentage of what is going on inwardly). Evidently the issue is whether whether we should choose to keep this "happiness" to our selves in sensual monogamy or share it with others of our choice.

Its hard for me to see that the issue is an issue at all because it is hard for me to see that anything that can be talked about in that way could count as happiness....it sounds more like obliviousness to be frank...it makes me remember something I recently reread in a book called "The Brain that Changes Itself", which is that Oxytocin might really function as a chemical of Amnesia, of forgetting...which doesn't seem like an unqualified benefit under the circumstances....

I really don't understand this.

What is stopping you from

What is stopping you from doing your own experiments with this and finding your own way? Who cares what society tells you is ok and not ok? If you and your husband and these others are ok with it, isn't that all that matters?

I don't think the goal here is stronger relating to the preclusion of all other relating. You might find it challenging to find like-minded others willing to relate genuinely and affectionately without the social scripting that brings up all the sexual questioning. Perhaps look for those from other countries as friends.

What is stopping me?

FEAR! That's all that's stopping us. Fear and a feeling of being alone in our thinking- which is why I turned to this community for their thoughts.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

Forums

Have you tried seeking out some forums that are geared toward others who are also interested in this way of living? I feel certain there must be others out there discussing this and would be able to help you assuage your fears going forward? It's not a new concept, so I'm sure there is a wealth of information out there to be had if you go looking.

I've been looking.

I have only found communities that also embrace other things that don't feel right in my heart... kink/BSDM... and of course most people have never heard of Karezza, so it's a very "me" centered kind of discussion about having the right to have sex with whoever you want to, for the sake of pleasure. I'll keep looking.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook

That reminds me of something

That reminds me of something I saw recently contrasting "scarcity" mentality with "abundance" mentality (probably another misleading dichotomy) which said that scarcity mentality views human interactions in their 'transactional' inflection and abundance mentality views them in their 'transformational' inflection. This seems to be what you are saying, and I agree about the yucky economic undertones in this discussion. This is the whole issue with monogamy for me, you articulated it quite well- that it does not provide for the ongoing process of revision to ones place in the world and in the lives of others. It does not account for the fluid nature of time and mind. Neither, I should say, does the "free love" style of the 60's. I mean spending a long weekend with someone and having warm conversations can be just as enriching and transformative as any kind of sexual encounter, yet that kind of fulfilment is often short-circuted by a desire to take it "all the way".... which is absurd really, just a sad symptom of the deep lacking that pervades most people's lives in this particular location in history.

Really there is just no way to defend or denounce any particular style of relationship.... the problem is not in how many partners one has or how long those partnerships last, the problem is, as you seem to hint at, is the intention that those partnerships are based on. Partnerships based on "using" others (transactional) just feed the flames of desperation and neediness that already characterize our society; many, MANY marriages operate this way. But many don't, and are transformational for the decades that the couple is together.

The issue is intention, and that is shaped by your own ability to be solid in yourself, not to need fulfilment from any other person, and not looking to anyone to "save" you, whether that's a sexual partner or a mentor or a parent or anything else.

And even as I get into talking I reach the point where I feel like even trying to talk about these things is absurd. Things are what they are, opportunities and recognitions and connections occur between humans in several different forms. Would that we were secure enough to allow these connections to work their transformative effects with no ill intentions, no emotional clinging, no neediness.

Which re-contextualizes this train of thought in terms of this website/community- in my mind, according to my own experience, frequent ejaculation tends to create and feed emotional neediness and drain ones feeling of wholeness- the exact feeling we all need to cultivate in order to begin to have the kind of mentality that you are talking about. Sex as most people know it is basically a program to "use" people to get off. It is wholly transactional, monogamous or not.

Try the book "Sex at Dawn"

It was just as thought-provoking as CPA in terms of how it challenges the majority view of monogamy as the necessary, "right" course of action

I have many friends who are experiencing similar things as you describe. . . feeling that giving more love magnifies the amount of love you have to give, rather than restricts it . . .I am in Portland, Oregon, which is like the world Mecca of the polyamory community right now.

I think one has to be very careful of one's ego when one is drawn to polyamory. . . majority of us will be attracted because of ego desires to have many partners, which will stroke our ego. . . .minority of us really do want to share our love with more than 1 person, and can see how being intimate with more than one person will add, not subtract, to the quality of our lives and their lives . . .

Also recommended reading is "The Ethical Slut".

Wishing you luck . . .

Andrew
Love & Freedom Project
www.loveandfreedomproject.com