Update (and the elusive male internal orgasm)

Submitted by tornfromabook on
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Hello all... Mr. tornfromabook here. Thought I would update on where my wife and I are at, especially since there has been a lot of growth lately.

First of all, I just want to comment on how amazingly easy it is for this entire Karezza worldview to go completely out the window with even a short period of conventional sex. We have been going down this road for 5 years now; everytime we get back into Karezza, it's like "OMG this explains everything, no wonder we were so unhappy and distant" and everytime we fall off the wagon, it's like "Karezza is just a bunch of bullshit, all those problems are just the way things are, men and women can't get along (and all the usual sterotypes)". It is literally like falling asleep again. Unbelievable. I say that as a way to encourage those of you who encounter similar difficulty. This is a path of sexuality that runs counter to pretty much everything our culture has programmed into us. It is bound to be difficult.

Luckily, we are not in that asleep place at the moment and things have really deepened in a new way. A lot of this has to do with changes in our headspace about the nature of relationships in general. I will let her tell her side of it but for me, as a man, I have really revisioned my idea of the man's role in relationships. The tendency for liberal, progressive culture is to elevate the woman and compensate for the past sins of traditional manhood by making man more subservient and passive in the relationship. And I do think this is an effective means to some degree when it comes to fixing the uber-macho stupidity of typically male gender roles. BUT now I see it as a kind of stepping stone on the learning path. In reality, the feminine does not really want to be "in charge", she is dynamic and elusive and moving and the proper function of the masculine is to be unmoveable, stable. The negative version of this is stubbornness and aggressive, but there is a positive manifestation of it that is like calm assertiveness, relaxed stability. Something like that. "staying power" is what I'm talking about.

That feeling has grown in me, althoughI used to have absolutely none of it (back when I was young and masturbating everyday). But as I have been progressing down this path of non-ejaculation, I have become more rooted and unmoveable; but my unmoveableness is not stubbornness but more like absolute relaxation. This has changed the dynamic of our relationship tremendously. The only way I can describe it is that I can "stand" her more. I guess I'm talking about patience. It used to be that if she was unsteady, wavering, displaying any kind of ineptitude or uncertainty, I would criticize her and put the responsibility on her to center herself. I would ask her to just tell me what she wanted. But now none of her feminine dynamism frustrates me, I can just stand it. I'm like an anchor. When she is uncertain, I tell her what I think the right thing to do is. When she falters, I calmly offer assistance.

In fact, I notice this in all relationships around me- all fights start with the woman doing something and the man getting frustrated because he can't "stand" it. So it really is the man's fault, sorry guys! It is proper for woman to be dynamic and shifting.

So I have heard this all over and even in this community there is often talk about man being the 'captain' and woman the 'boat'; now I get it, that the proper thing for a man to be is a guide; the trick is that man has to be good. You must do the work you need to do on yourself, spiritually, physically, etc, to be full in your maleness and clean of your emotional neediness, and then you can be of use to a woman. I now believe that sex is really for women; I mean I am happy to take part of course haha. But there should be no taking on the part of the man during sex. Or in the relationship. He shouldn't need to take anything, and he won't if he is full in himself (not full OF himself, which is the negative version).

A big part of this for me has been staying consistent in my meditation practice. It has deepened my ability to provide the physical stability for my wife to unfold her bliss. What I have been doing in meditation is rooting- focusing on the breath in my tailbone, sacrum, belly and lower dan tien. Doing this for half an hour everyday spills over into the rest of the day and I am much more aware of my base chakra energies in general. In fact, I am on the brink of being able to have internal orgasms I think. I have built up my energy to the point where I can sit in meditation and circulate near-orgasmic sexual energy throughout my body with zero fantasy, zero physical stimulation... just me and my beautiful nervous system and bliss, taking the time to feel love for myself. All of this has made me a much more solid partner, has made me more open to love in general and much more resilient to the culture of lust that is shoving itself down your throat everywhere you turn.

So if there are any guys who are starting down this path, these are things I can recommend- if you masturbate, eliminate all visual stimulation and fantasy and just enjoy / love yourself; practice rooting meditation or at least focus on relaxing your tailbone as you go about your day; when you have sex, remain totally in your body and put all of your attention on relaxing your tailbone and maintaining openness of breath. I have found that if you can relax your tailbone and never stop breathing during sex, you will never really be in danger of ejaculating.

Lastly, I want to suggest that this community would benefit by thinking of ejaculation as the thing to avoid, not orgasm; it enforces the idea that these are one and the same. "orgasm" really is a slippery word that applies to a wide range of sexual phenomena, and not all of them are bad. In fact, I think women especially need to be open to their orgasmic potential, just not the kind that are like male ejaculations (the kind you strive toward and feel like energy drains down and out of you). Now that I have started to experience the beginnings of internal orgasm, I think that this is something that really needs to be advocated, especially to younger males, as the healthy alternative to ejaculation.

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excellent post

so glad you are here and love to hear your experiences.

I'm not quite there but I might end up in that direction. I do agree with you about women and masculine energy. This is my conclusion also. And I totally get that Karezza lets us guys not get bent out of shape by women changing their minds and shifting around. It is amazing.

This is a beautiful,

This is a beautiful, insightful post. I love your description of manhood. You guys are magnificent.Kiss 2

I made many such experiments (back to conventional sex) myself...and always ended up back with the realization that the karezza principles (by whatever name) were the best of the options.

Your point about avoiding ejaculation, not orgasm, makes sense, but I've found that people have to find that bliss by not looking for it. If they're looking for it, they're jacking up their dopamine, thinking "orgasm," and creating frustration. So after years of talking to people about valley orgasms, etc., I realized that it's usually best to help people become "goal-less." Into that space the bliss can pour...as their brains become more sensitive to pleasure.

At first, they can't necessarily feel that effortless bliss, and will ramp things up because they figure they must be doing something "wrong" if they aren't feeling it.

Thoughts anyone?

that ramp up is difficult to resist

I realized today that I am always trying to ramp up my wife's system to "help" her to orgasm. It's so difficult not to try to go somewhere, head somewhere, get to some place, reach some goal. But it's always valuable trying. I think this realization will help me, for instance. Just being aware of something that had been below the conscious level helps.

I know what you are saying.

I know what you are saying. My thinking is that there must be a way to "market" this to young people. "No orgasm" is a hard sell. I don't really have a solution to that problem. Personally, I have discovered the non-ejaculatory internal orgasmic bliss sensations by looking for them inside myself while touching myself with intention. I figure if you tell young guys that if they masturbate without porn or fantasy and just pay attention to their internal feelings and relax, they can potentially learn an even "better" kind of orgasm. That would sell me.

Sigh...

Yeah... this is just so tragic! It's depressing to think about. It feels like a problem that can't be turned around. I feel rather helpless thinking about it, and very sad for most young men out there who really have no messages from culture steering them away from this disaster in progress.

People are so brainwashed,

People are so brainwashed, too. I was with some guy friends and somehow we got on the subject of porn and masturbation and all and I told them I ejaculate(meaning jerk-off was the wording I used, didn't even mention solo cultivation in between) around once, sometimes twice a month. Anyway, they all looked at me like I was crazy and I got those looks like, "Are you okay?" like I'm almost on my death bed or something. These looks lasted I think a few hours.

I guess they all believe that my head's literally about to spontaneously explode from the pressure or something, like something from a science fiction movie...ROFL

If you ask them

why they think it's so deadly not to ejaculate constantly...they won't be able to answer. Some will mutter vague things about "prostate cancer," which we investigated and found were grossly exaggerated. Meanwhile, the actual research that shows masturbation isn't such a great tonic is ignored.

See Rethinking the Wonders of Adult Masturbation

It's all the doing of today's sexologists and their spokespeople, such as Dan Savage. Biggrin

I think I've experienced this same brainwashing years ago

in my 20s and 30s when I would tell the occasional guy or gal friend that I found being near groups of men hooting and yelping in public when something they thought was sexy pass by to be a real turn-off concerning men. The response was always, "so, you prefer men with no sex drive?"

So I'd try to tell them there was a third alternative between no sex drive and making a loud public display that you were insanely horny. They always ask, "so what do you call that alternative?" And all I could think of to say was, "sexually satisfied." Nothing more attractive than a man who exudes sexual satisfaction. The shouting men publicly displaying perpetual starvation for sex (which so many in society think is "cute" and "normal" for guys) seemed only to signal to me that they didn't know how to get sex, so they must be starving to act that way, and what's sexy about guys who advertise that they're incapable of satisfying sex.

The conclusion was usually that as a female, my sex drive must be suppressed to think men are unnattractive when acting that way in public.

I sure wish I'd known more back then about karazza.

Thanks for the beautiful male perspective

Just reading the wonderful "Update" post is an example of me getting to witness men in general take the initiative on this subject and has allowed me to sense the groundedness the masculine energy can have on the feminine energy when they take part in the challenging work of forging better unions. Just knowing you men here regardless of age are a driving force in this topic brings a sense of calm.

One of the most beautiful things my late husband ever said to me was, "You can reach out to anywhere in the universe you want to go, and I'll hold you safely here as you explore." Meaning together we could go to all the states of mind I was able to shift into that he wasn't in general aware of, and always know our way back home which he was so grounded in. Each time we "returned home", home had expanded to something we both loved even more because of having reached beyond to explore, but always coming back home to replenish ourselves and renew our anchoring homestate.

In less abstract thoughts, to me anyway many couples have had the male/female roles in reverse a lot. In my first marriage that ended unhappily, he shifted and shifted and shifted. First he felt this way. Then he felt that way. No, now he feels yet another way and had no memory of feeling what he said he felt the day before. And I tried to maintain the state of anchoring and groundedness while me and our kids chased his constant shifts and changes. Often I felt unfeminine and non-sexual. But with my second husband who was very grounded, I felt so feminine and free with him as my partner.

Yet I wonder -- in my first marriage, had I went right ahead and shifted and shift ed as I'd wanted to instead of taking on the male role so fiercely, would that have perhaps drawn out the anchoring masculine state in him? I don't mean that question as a concern about myself and he directly as in woulda, coulda, shoulda, but it's an interesting example question to me as far as men and women in general.

After all that, I would like to reinforce what we all know, that both genders carry the energy of the other within themselves. As someone in between partners now, my spiritual practice involves the inner marriage of male/female to re-establish after kind of getting thrown off a bit during a trauma I allowed to get to me too much. It feels great to self-ground and seems imperative before giving myself to another.

tornfromabook wrote:

[quote=tornfromabook]...I have really revisioned my idea of the man's role in relationships. The tendency for liberal, progressive culture is to elevate the woman and compensate for the past sins of traditional manhood by making man more subservient and passive in the relationship. And I do think this is an effective means to some degree when it comes to fixing the uber-macho stupidity of typically male gender roles. BUT now I see it as a kind of stepping stone on the learning path. In reality, the feminine does not really want to be "in charge", she is dynamic and elusive and moving and the proper function of the masculine is to be unmoveable, stable....

I can just stand it. I'm like an anchor....

You must do the work you need to do on yourself, spiritually, physically, etc, to be full in your maleness and clean of your emotional neediness...

A big part of this for me has been staying consistent in my meditation practice. It has deepened my ability to provide the physical stability for my wife to unfold her bliss. [/quote]

Yep. That was it, exactly what I needed to hear. I truncated it bc it was long and anyone who wants can reread it above. The last few years I've noticed that when I have a question or problem in life that needs sorting out I will eventually be drawn to things and I will read or hear or see something that just clicks.

tornfromabook wrote:

[quote=tornfromabook]The only way I can describe it is that I can "stand" her more. I guess I'm talking about patience. It used to be that if she was unsteady, wavering, displaying any kind of ineptitude or uncertainty, I would criticize her and put the responsibility on her to center herself. I would ask her to just tell me what she wanted. But now none of her feminine dynamism frustrates me, I can just stand it. I'm like an anchor. When she is uncertain, I tell her what I think the right thing to do is. When she falters, I calmly offer assistance. In fact, I notice this in all relationships around me- all fights start with the woman doing something and the man getting frustrated because he can't "stand" it. So it really is the man's fault, sorry guys! It is proper for woman to be dynamic and shifting. So I have heard this all over and even in this community there is often talk about man being the 'captain' and woman the 'boat'; now I get it, that the proper thing for a man to be is a guide; the trick is that man has to be good.[/quote]

Mr. Torn, this has stuck with me. I think it's really, really helpful. I found myself re-reading it last night and it makes so much sense. I'm seeing how I can apply it this very moment. I find it easy to fall into those familiar patterns of frustration, when she does something feminine mind changy annoyed, as she does, but actually, with just an ounce of presence, it is easy not to feel frustration at all, and rather to be her rock.

Thank you.