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It has struck me that I am on a forum primarily designed for those who actually have a sexual relationship of some type with a partner.

I do not.. haven't for over a year and a half and it really looks like my prospects for a intimate relationship that has any sexual content is many months away at best.

Even more striking to me is that I don't seem to be overly concerned about this. Well I will say now that I have said this I am a bit concerned about a loss of libido.

No PMO ... which obviously is a solo endeavor .. has changed my outlook considerably when I. .. "covet".

Many of you know what I mean by covet.. it used to be a substantial part of my sexual addiction... The tight pants..skirt or sweater.. younger women .. older women . .

Coveting was a primary driver of my libido.. often pushing me or triggering my need for a fix.

Now this has changed. I still recognize a beautiful woman but the knee jerk (hehe) reaction of need is no longer there.

I feel my core stir a tiny bit.. but I don't run with the thought or feeling.

I wasn't a crazy maniac before ... I never acted on my covets...just fantasy at worst.. and I never coveted with my wife present. .disrespectful .. I felt like this periodic coveting helped keep me manly and hungry. But now I realize it just caused more self suffering.

Now I have a lot of time to myself but have come to the realization that it is OK to recognize beauty in all walks of life without coveting to fuck them.

I just don't elaborate on the recognition of beauty and covet an unhealthy object of desire.

Why I am mentioning this in a karezza forum is because I believe there is a lesson here for even those who have partners.

I would covet my own wife as just a sexual object rather than a soul connected lover.

I was so out of touch with my body I could only have unconnected sex with her as an object .. not much different than my masturbation to porn.

So people pursuing karezza.. I think the first hurdle is to realize you are loving a beauitiful soul you can feel in your heart ... don't be distracted by the window dressing.

It seems like the seductive nature in how women dress to impress each other and the overall cultural prevalence of sex in movies, advertising, music.. etc. encourages this objective cold superficial super sexual seduction as what love and intimacy is.. and I am on to their little game.

All of this may be obvious to most.. but not to me.. like realuzing karezza kind of needs two people. I am working on this too. :)



One of the cool things is

that once you're unhooked from that knee-jerk reaction, you can roll through a hypersexualized culture and be kind of relaxed about it...although some aspects of it start to seem just plain weird.

The ultimate irony is that suggestions about the benefit of sexual balance turn out to be for the easy state of mind and decreased frustration of the person himself/herself. And NOT as we're all told, to earn a place in heaven or to "sacrifice" in some way. It only feels like a sacrifice at first (and maybe on a rare occasion). After that, "normal" and "balanced" feel much better than what you call "coveting."

Great insight, I am happy to

Great insight, I am happy to hear your contentment. It is true that karezza really is about letting go of the sex. For most people, that creates the perfect space for sex to "reappear" in a new and better way, but for some of us it does not.

A few weeks ago, I remember

A few weeks ago, I remember you were writing that you had to lower your eyes; that's fantastic that now you're not so affected by the sea of sexy appearances, mirages.

Right now I'm reeling from something my husband said that let me know I am just a sexual object. Ouch. Your report from the other side gives me hope.

I feel like my worth and value is at stake, so there's a part of me that just wants to put on an act and at least try for an A+ as a sexual object. In the past I have done that. This time is different; I realize we'll never make any progress if I 'sell out' for a shred of surface appreciation. I feel like I have to honor the deep truth of my being. I am a dwelling place of God. Not an object.

My challenge now is that I know we need bonding. I have to initiate, but I'm so hurt. It's a challenge to approach him with vulnerability when I'm hurt like this.

This ended up being about me. But, Thanks for listening.

This is where forgiveness comes in

...and a different strategy. Smile

Just tell yourself you'll process all that in a few months...for now you're going to do an experiment where you see if daily bonding behaviors and less goal-driven sex actually shifts your perception of each other. It if does, the bad memories will fade fast. If it doesn't, there's still plenty of time to process your distress.

Good luck!

Hey Undying,

Hey Undying,

I understand your pain.. I don't know your situation at all but as you can see I understand my actions hurt my wife initially and I am actively working to change mysexual objectificatin of her and all women.. if that is the right term.

I am hoping my wife and maybe other women might understand that this was honestly a mistaken view that came from innocence. That sounds like it is really an off base excuse using the wrong wording .. but it is accurate.

I am not blaming my ignorance directly on society or my upbringing .. I should have recognized the constant brainwashing and marketing .. how my world taught me what love and sex is. I honestly had no other sources to draw from... so I didn't know how to be. I thought getting aroused by hypersexualized sensual cues was just the way it is biologically done. I mean that is what I grew up with and masturbated to and the only thing that would give me an erection.. until even that didn't work most of the time.

This was nothing personal.. my wife could have been writhing and pole dancing naked for me in the end but it still wouldn't (and didn't) bring us closer .

This new "enlightened" approach I am taking has been hard to even find and it is counter intuitive biologically and counterculture in my world. In most Americans world I would say.. We just don't know any better and think the only way we can get aroused or perform is to hype up the fantasy and rote superficial biological sex cues... I still struggle not just diving into some superficial fantasy just to get off and have my dopamine fix,. But I let it go because I know the hangover too well

Everybody has to develop at their own pace and make their own mistakes or victories. Even with all my mistakes and slow evolution to this point I never lost sight of how much I love my wife... to my core .. I didn't know any other way to show her my sexual attracton other than being crude or superficial. I still loved her deeply but had no tools to show her this with sexual intimacy.. I still don't have the tools.. but just maybe I am on the right path to develop them.

Maybe you and your man are too. Just love him and know that he likely just doesn't know any other way to be yet.

Yes I would agree.. sex is

Yes I would agree.. sex is drama. Especially for men. I am only now recognizing how seriously I took that drama. Sex and orgasm were extremely serious and important to me. I am only now realizing the equal importance of other things in life.. like love and intimacy .. and sunsets.

I again will sound sexes here but it is just one man's experience when I say that I don't believe women... or my woman in particular realized how serious sexual performance and acceptance was for me. It was more important than food or love or my kids or anything.. My whole wanting to live and existence was tied in directly to getting my penis in a woman's vagina and having her like it.

I don't think ... but maybe I am wrong.. I don't think most women realize the overwhelming drive men have.. and the importance of it. Yes it is artificially inflated of our own doing.. but sex and intercourse and orgasms on both individuals part are the most serious important thing to us in the universe.. biologically or emotionally we feel this to our core ... especially when we are addicted.

Yes this view is so skewed and selfish and wrong.. but it is real for many.. most men. It takes enormous effort to change this view.

Thank you so much. Your

Thank you so much. Your perpective is helpful.

[quote=Tortoise] and intercourse and orgasms on both individuals part are the most serious important thing to us in the universe.. [/quote]

Wow! To her credit, my mom told me that. I agree that surely many, many women don't realize it. And I probably still underestimate it all the time.

I'm in such an odd situation:

Men NEED orgasms; but
Orgasms are harmful (and I see the harmful effects)

.... so, he needs me to give him something that's harmful to him.

I feel stuck here. I don't know how to act. He thinks it's boring that I don't want orgasms anymore.

I understand that he's not being mean; he just has zero words to use in the language of real connection, the language I want to speak in and hear from him. And that's lonely for me. While he's probably fantasizing about God knows what, sometimes I'm imagining my solidarity with all the women in the world in this situation, many of them in oppressive cultures where it's impossible to say or do anything about it.

It strikes me that many of the guys who've found this place are here because their wives have gone into "lockdown". That seems to have "worked" to motivate you guys to find this information and take heroic stands against biology.

I don't feel right about going into lockdown. But is there another way, without totally walking away from his needs, that I could be constructive and encourage him to seek better? In the middle of your addiction, what might have helped, coming from your wife?

I talk to him some about karezza and my dissatisfaction and physical discomfort with the way things are going... it's hard for me to imagine that more talking will get us anywhere.

Any thoughts?

Good call.

Worth a shot. I put him on notice to expect it daily. We'll see what happens. I hope you didn't mean there were supposed to be strings attached.


I meant that (at least) he not pound you and try to give you orgasms. You could also ask him to lie still for a few minutes with him inside you, before he finishes.

Be sure to tell him that you enjoy the sex as much or more when you don't have an orgasm.

Does he care about your needs

or does he only care about himself? If you've made it clear that things aren't working for you, and he doesn't care, then I don't think you can expect much from him. Have you really shown him how deeply you feel about this? How important it is to you? Sometimes you have to hit a guy over the head with some sort of explosive reaction before he will receive the message...

A big challenge you face is that you're looking to change his behavior, which almost never works out well. You are better off just saying how you feel and asking for what you want. And even if he doesn't want to change his behavior, if he's not willing to try giving up his orgasms for a few weeks, that's one thing. But your orgasms are your business - that's not up to him.

Also, to clear one thing up: men do not need orgasms, they only think they do. But I feel as Tortoise does that it's very important to me that my woman enjoys sex with me and lets me know that she wants and likes it with me. I will also say that (except during our initial courtship) I never actually experienced her wanting it and enjoying it before we went down the Karezza path. I thought she did, but I was wrong. Nothing can compare to the feeling of being completely let in, wanted, accepted and loved by a woman. I guess you could think of lock-down as the opposite of that.

Something men often lose sight of is that things are not equal between men and women. It's the woman who gets penetrated. That gives her a much bigger say in when and how sex happens. I used to feel like it was "unfair" that I had very little say in the matter (and would get pouty and childish, etc. when I didn't get what I wanted). But I have come to realize that even when she was "willing to give in" as you are now, I was never actually getting her; only the shell of her that she allowed me to use. She wasn't really there at all. I know this because (a) it feels very different when she really lets me in and (2) she told me so Smile

sender wrote:

[quote=sender]A big challenge you face is that you're looking to change his behavior, which almost never works out well.[/quote]

Worse than that; I would like to change his attitude.

Undying.. I can give you a

Undying.. I can give you a few thoughts but take them lightly .. life is so variable.

Yes her lock down and rejection helped me grow immensly. However this is a huge risk. Most men in my opinion would leave and follow the first new biologically receptive vagina that was attached to a pretty face. .. and there are millions out there.. I am not trying to hype your fear.. This is just my observation.

I am not trying to be crude or rude but biology dictates much of our action when we feel rejected.. it is a rare few who come to realize how stupid they are in repeating the same pattern. and even fewer who love deep enough to admit it and try to work it out with their original partner. .. most .. if they are even a bit wise enough just move on and try not to make the same mistake with a clean slate so to speak... but often repeat the same pattern anyway.

Again I am no expert and not trying to be discouraging because everyone is unique but lock down could likely result in a loss of your relationship.

To be perfectly honest I don't know what my wife could have done to make our separation unnecissary for our growth. Separation usually results in divorce.

So let me think... for me... in a perfect world .. , hmm.

Intercouse and orgasms were what I thought I wanted. If she would only give me what I wanted when I wanted I thought things would be ok. The key here is that intercourse and orgasms are only what I thought I needed..

The reality is that I really wanted sexual acceptance and to be adored for who I am and loved and nurtured.. The whole needing orgasms more and more came from a deep place of feeling rejected as a man and not respected and not wanted.

If she would have brought the CPA book to me and said " I am not happy with our sex life and want to try anything I can so we can be happy together and I would like to try this.. etc" I would have dove in whole hearted.. but this is me. I was/am the one who would try anything.. not her..she thought/thinks our chemistry is nonexistent and cant improve.. I am out to prove her wrong... unless she is right.

Sometimes putting it all out there is good. Men go crazy if they think you are seriously leaving them and are that unhappy in your life together. For example.. " I am on the edge of just giving up on us because of our dynamic in the bedroom.. I need to try this Karezza together to see if we can salvage our marriage" .. OK so that is a balsy ultimatum hopefully not sounding like an ultimatum.. but I don't know how unhappy you really are. Depending on the man this could really work.. we shit our pants when our sweetheart is truly leaving and will try anything.

Other option is if she would just tenderly show the sexual man in me unconditional attention. Now this is a stretch. If she walked the walk of Karezza and just enjoyed me taking her as I wanted to and realized without condescending actions that an evolution was taking place in both of us but I was not yet as advanced in my acceptence of the evolution to Karezza. If she allowed me to as immaturely or awkwardly caress and take her as often as I wanted while showing me love and tenderness and smiles and hugs and just holding me or my penis after sex or before when I was frustrated and couldn't get an erection.. if she could just help me and say it is ok she is here for me. Tenderness and understanding combined with allowing me free will to have her as I wanted.

So that sounds insane.. It is what I needed I believe. I gave her long massages and neck and foot rubs for hours but I was always expecting similar treatment.. when I didn't get it I expected sex. I probably would have expected sex even if she would have reciprocated with a back rub. But her withholding time afer time drove me to want her more and more and resent her. If she would have given herself maybe I would have grown tired of her.. I don't know. But if I grew tired of her sexually and had a hangover from orgasms inside her maybe I would more see the logic of Karezza. As it was I just saw her rejecting me because of my inadequacy and then we separated even though I fraantically wanted her.. maybe because I frantically wanted her.

So this probably didn't help much.. I mean you are a woman.. not a robot. My sugessitions are again not to be taken too seriously but only as food for thought.

thank you

Really this does help.
I'm not any good at withholding. I was concerned whether we'll ever get anywhere if I'm being Mrs. Nice Lady.

Your answer tells me it's worth a shot to keep going. I'll try stepping up the frequency in hopes of more relaxation and tenderness. And less goal orientation.

Some philosophy might be

Some philosophy might be helpful here.

It is my current philosophy and it seems to stop me from the resentment I used to build up when I gave and gave expecting a return on my investment.

Expect nothing in return for you being Mrs. Nice Lady.

Do not expect any change or try to control any change.. let it happen as it does. I mean you can tell him your genuine feelings like I enjoy intercourse without orgasms because I feel closer and more loved etc. But you are telling him this because it is your truth... not a manipulation to change him.

I have been staying st my wife's house three or four nights a week now. I massage her back and feet and neck and ass every night and morning for a half hour to an hour.. she loves it ! I do get sexually aroused at times but rather than getting resentful because she doesn't return the affection or sexually return my investment in time.. I actually have come to the realization that I get as much or maybe even more satisfaction knowing I am giving her a gift that she loves. She loves my massages and physical contact and I no longer feel like I am expecting something from her in exchange. I don't even expect my giving to change her in the long run.. I would be happy if it eventually results in us getting closer and a deep sensual bonding that involves intercourse... but I don't internalize this as an expectation.. only a possibility.

If I give and give unconditionally and my soul starts feeling hollow again I will just have to move on I guess.. but I have no control over her.. I have control of my actions and I simply love showing her my love without expectation right now. I think she will eventually feel unconditionally accepted by me enough to open to me some day.. but again I don't expect this. I just love the feel of her skin under my touch and how her energy relaxes and loves me back.. that is enough for me for now.. I don't know about the future.

So my philosophy. Give not to get or to change him. Give because you love him. You love his imperfections and crudeness.. embrace this little boy, this king .. because you love him and nobody has ever loved him enough to show him that he is ok and safe... warts and all. :)

I have tears in my eyes

I have tears in my eyes because it seems so significant to be in a position to offer this unconditional love. Or to aim toward it and get closer through trial and error.

At first I didn't know what it means to embrace this 'little boy.' so I usually see my offering more as affirming him as a man and king.

But then I realized there is something to it. there is a little boy there who really needs love. his inner boy is desperately shy.

And this little boy has been hiding, so the whole person isn't 'there' to meet me. It's been an outer performance that doesn't touch the inner vulnerable self who is so desperately shy and afraid to come out.

He is shy to ask. for sex. I thought, you know, several times a week was a pretty good offering on my part. But he would take it roughly, like a starving man. That made my body, at least, sort of brace, and it was hard to keep my heart open.

so today is day 6 of the sex-every-night plan... [huge dopey smile]
it has revolutionized EVERYTHING. I think he feels so accepted and wanted when he doesn't have to ask and knows what to expect. All day long, I find myself looking forward to it. Sometimes he has orgasms and sometimes not.

So, thank you fellas for the sound advice. And thank you especially for the philosophy to avoid the pitfalls of expectations. I've always wanted to keep "commerce" out of the relationship - it should be gift, not trade, selling, control, etc. I knew I didn't want to try to control, but thanks for pointing out that it spoils the gift if I even entertain expectations.

I'm really glad that the daily sex is working out well

and you both seem to be enjoying it. Awesome!

It's also interesting that he is not orgasming sometimes. Did you suggest that to him? If you continue to be available for daily sex, he may feel free to try going for longer stretches without orgasm.

Waaay back at the beginning of my marriage, I tried sex without orgasm about two or three times, and really liked it. I liked the way I felt for a day or two afterward. But at that time we weren't having sex very often, and I felt like I had to take advantage of those opportunities to have orgasms - otherwise (I thought), I might feel too horny, have trouble getting to sleep, etc. So I discontinued the experiment of not having orgasms.

Now I've been practicing Karezza for about 4 years, and I have found that Karezza helps avoid unpleasant horniness, and certainly doesn't cause sleep problems! Wish I'd known that way back at the beginning!

It's been over 2 years since

It's been over 2 years since he read the beginning of an older version of Marnia's book, so he knows that really frequent orgasms make him feel bad, that it can be fun to end without one, and he has quite good control. We've been playing with all this for 2 years. Daily sex seems to be a helpful missing piece.

Oh and about the "our own

Oh and about the "our own doing" statement I made. How I did this to myself was.. Iwas so focused on orgasms and sex I literally flooded my brain with dopamine from orgasms and coveting and orgasms and coveting.. etc ,.. to the point where all colors became just shades of grey. I couldn't see beauty in anything. The taste of food.. the colors of spring.. the scent of a flower... unimportant.. non existent.. I am not exaggerating.. I was worse than heroine addict . My brain overstimulated by porn and coveting all day long .. then angry or pouting if I didn't get the real thing from my objectified wife who I made feel guilty for not indulging me. This is the hell realm I was in and it was not just emotional but actually I had physically changed my neuroreceptors.. . dopamine receptors were exhausted and decreased in nbers as a result and no pleasurable response was possible no matter how amazingly stimulating.. let alone the simple beauty of a tulip in spring.. I had lost all this .

I hope

I hope you will read "Tantric Sex for Men" by Diana and Michael Richardson~~you will realize your "drive" is actually for love and acceptance~~nothing to beat yourself up over! To quote the book:

"After all, what does a man want when he makes love to a woman? What is the ultimate reason for making love? It is not to achieve ejaculation; it is to be loved by the woman. Woman is the source of love, the mother of love, and I, as a man, am able to tap into that love. For me, love is what it is all about. Being in the here and now, I've discovered that in stillness, including inner stillness during movement, I can tap into or connect with the "garden of love" in woman. And there is nothing more satisfying and touching than seeing a woman radiating, blossoming in love."

I think you will find that once you are received lovingly and openly over and over again you will lose that "neediness" you currently feel. It's natural to want it, though.

Thank you for the book

Thank you for the book suggestion.. It sounds like how I felt and even feel now. I think k the difference now is I realize how my needs became obcessive the more I tried to relieve them with porn.. masturbation is like trying to put out a deep fire in my soul with gasoline.

The combination of my expectations and needs with her resentment or fear of those needs was a recipe for disaster.

I long for the day my wife doesn't reject me sexually.. I can't expect such a time or I will destroy the current balance. Being received over and over seems impossible or improbable in my world.. being received occasionally would be the best I might hope for. I am not trying to sound like a victim.. just a realist who doesn't want to weather more rejection. Heaven or nirvana is not what I aspire to.. it would be awesome but reality has slapped me around too much for pipe dreams.

I once heard a quotation that went something like this:

"Sex is like air...only a problem when you aren't getting any. "

Once you're having it with some regularity...without going for somehow will feel less needy and more like you're getting "enough." Not sure how that works, but somehow the two partners tend to come into sync, perhaps because they enjoy nourishing each other when no one feels 'devoured.'

But it will take time...even after you two reconnect.

Thank you all for your truly

Thank you all for your truly nourishing responses. You all give me hope.. and help with my patience and peace during such an upheaval and time of growth in my life. Some of you have read my posts on here and have witnessed my deep wrangling with the changes taking place in and around me.. your support and kind words continue to be a major inspiration .. I am on a path of discovery.. I feel very blessed.