how not to talk about Karezza.

Tortoise's picture
Submitted by Tortoise on
Printer-friendly version

This morning I was giving my separated wife a ride home from getting her car serviced. Out of the blue again she says I am the best friend she has ever had and the best man she has ever known and she wants to be with me the rest of her life even though she knows sex with me will never be very good. Yes she actually said this. She further elaborates that the men she has had amazing natural sexual chemistry with always turn out to be assholes and she would rather have bad sex with her best friend who is loving and caring than have amazing sex with someone she really dislikes and doesn't respect.
Now if I was an eloquent speaker who could contemplate and think on his feet I would have told her in a non argumentative way that I disssgree and think she is equating honeymoon sex with the only good sex possible. I have faith the bonding karezza pursuit is good and fulfilling but I only know this anecdotally.. not first hand. But I am trusting and believe it can be and would like to someday slowly pursue the intimacy of karezza.
But instead of saying this I blurt out. I don't think that our sex will always be bad. To which she says this is about the latest book you have been reading. To which I say it isn't just s book it is a movement or philosophy about the difference between sex for reproduction and sex for bonding. To which she says "I never want to talk about it and don't bring it up again".
I can only conclude it is obviously too early to communicate about sex in any way. But she brought it up. Just so you know why I am not more discouraged is because I know when she says extreme things like never talk about it again .. it is only a little part of her saying this.. a scared part.. the reptile brain that is afraid and reacts quickly out of fear. This isn't the part that may someday let go of her fear and be able to let me in. That is the majority of her and everybody I think. The knee jerk defensiveness is not any of us as a whole. It is just the part of us that is scared of the unknown.
So for all of you who want to know how to address Karezza with your still slightly astranged wife... that was not the way.. I honestly think that one thing Marnia told me really applies. Less talking more showing.. or something to that effect. All the words and arguments in the world mean nothing.. all people hear is blah blah blah trigger... blah blah trigger.. blah blah blah.
Patience.

Topic:

Comments

words are over rated

It is sometimes just best to do karezza yourself and let her come to her own conclusions (pun intended, LOL.)

talking about it is over counter productive...and you don't need her agreement to not have orgasms yourself.

Maybe a Question or Two Are In Order

Your estranged wife has an interesting way of complimenting you—I think. You are a great guy, want to spend the rest of my life with you and by the way you are lousy in the sack. Let me twist the knife a little more—I have sex with total assholes and it is terrific! Can we assume your wife is not employed as a diplomat.

The above was paraphrased but I believe totally accurate. I guess the obvious question is did you ask her why? Why is sex with you so awful? Why is sex with some douche bag that treats her like crap so amazing? I am making the supposition that if some dude is an asshole he isn’t a real great guy. Honestly if someone said that to me I wouldn’t argue with them or try to convince them, I’d really want to know why they said it.

Perhaps she has feelings about sex that it is dirty or bad and she can only enjoy it if she is treated badly and can’t have pleasure in a loving relationship. Or a million other things she may feel. I’m just saying, I think it deserves a question and you deserve an answer.

OK. So I kind of know why

OK. So I kind of know why she hates sex with me. No need to ask and trigger her further. So fasten your seatbelt because it will get a little convoluted and psychological. Be aware while I am writing this it is also me processing all the feelings and thoughts and consolidating them for me and the world to hear. Very personal.. even more so than intercouse :). This is emotional intimacy and my vulnerability fully exposed.
We had great honeymoon sex in the early days. She elects to forget this.. but I know what it was.. and it was fine then. Then we fell in love. Very deep love. I accepted her for the beautiful. person she is inside and out. No one.. and I mean no one including her parents and brother and family had ever treated her lovingly and with respect since she reached adulthood. Her stepfather raped and sodomized her randomly in the middle of the night from age 6 to age 12. She would never know what nights he might visit her and leave her bleeding to soak her little bottom in a cool tub.. followed by a scalding hot shower.
I need to tell this story so you know the basis for my conclusions. Her real dad left when she was very young and she would see him once or twice a year.. but suffice it to say he was an asshole and still is.. him and her mom only praised the boy child.. her brother. Treated and continue to treat her like a second class person.. some male child favoritism handed down in some families I guess.
So in walks the stepfather. Treats her better than anyone in her family. Adores her.. loves her. Grooms her.
She still loves her stepfather. The only man who ever treated her decently and showered her with gifts.. took her shopping.. to carnivals.. movies. She loved him more than any man she had ever met. And then he started raping her. Her family won't acknowledge or talk about it to this day. Nothing was ever done. A common story.
After a leaving home at 15 severe drug abuse and promescuity to the extreme she settles for a few short term physically abusive relationships.. then totally cleans up by the age of 25. But not without scars. PTSD isn't just for military types.
So in walks me. We fall in love. No longer the honeymoon lust but spiritual friendship and love. Yes she is like an unpredictable feral cat.. but I love her strength and spirit. Slowly the anger is quieting.
To be honest the more our love grew the more angry she became in the bedroom. No where else. Just for sex. Tense .. let's both just go through the motions and have an orgasm so we can leave each other alone sexually. She would be tense a lot .. I would get frustrated and limp .. even with ED drugs. It became an angry terrible experience I am still afraid of.. nothing but goal oriented. The perfect storm for terrible sex.
You see if she doesnt care about the man he can't hurt her. He can fuck her with wild abandon.. she doesnt love him. The random angry man will never give her anything so she doesnt feel obligated to let him fuck her. She just does it for her own pleasure.. no pressure from him. No expectation.. no love. If love or adoration or warm fuzzy feelings start it takes her back to her abuse. Keep quiet so the only man who loves her doesn't get in trouble. She recreates the feeling she has to let the man who loves her take her any way he wants.. and she resents and gets anxious and angry and doesn't even know why. And sex becomes a nightmare.
She believes our problems are completely because of a innate sexual chemistry that we have never had. She believes she has come to terms with her abuse and it has nothing to do with it. But the subject is not up for discussion. I have never told her what I am telling you now. The shit storm would not allow it.
Now don't think I didn't have a major contributing role here. I obcessed and pouted about my impotence (yes the term sucks but it applies to even my mature manning up here). I would pressure her to fuck. I couldn't get enough. It was maddening. I too have a problem. Sex addiction. Sex is my love language.. whatever the fuck that means. I didn't like the 5 love languages.. thought it was a simplistic very shallow two dimensional way to rationalize human expectations. Anyway I diverge.
So in a nutshell I felt completely rejected with my needs unmet and she felt obligated used and abused.
I started meeting my porn induced increasingly insane orgasm addiction with even more porn. We grew more distant. She said she no longer finds me attractive in anyway and I should just go get my needs met elsewhere. We separated and did.
But we miss and love each other and want to be together.
I feel with solo Karezza I am moderating my out of hand orgasm addiction and artificially elevated sex drive so if we do get back together I can be a mature man without expectations. I am hoping Karezza could allow calm intimacy with no goal
or feeling of obligation on her part.
It really feels like goal oriented sex was my main downfall. This Karezza method has been placed in my path to heal me and my addiction. Maybe it could help heal the most important relationship in my life too.
That is why I didn't need to ask her why.

There Is Hope for You and Your Wife

Tortoise, I suspected there was more to your wife’s comments about being dissatisfied sexually with you compared to men that treated her poorly. My girlfriend is a psychology major and is now waiting for acceptance to grad school in psychology. She read your thread and had some interesting observations.

A single mother with a young child and an absent father is total pedophile bait. The mother and daughter are both missing a man in their life. The pedophile shows interest in the mother who figures she now has a replacement for the absent father of her child. What seems great to her is that the pedophile pays a lot of attention to the child; gifts, attention, whatever he can. This is called “grooming”. After that he abuses the child. If anything is said or if the mother gains knowledge of the abuse, the mother will often deny that the abuse ever occurred. The mother is afraid of losing the new man in her life, even though the pedophile may actually pay more attention to the child than he does the mother. Many times the mother will verbally or physically abuse the child because she becomes jealous of the child. As you said, your wife’s situation is all too common of a story. I think we all vote the stepfather in this case a total creep.

Now what do you and your wife do so that you both have a happy life together. My girlfriend said that all her acting out, you named a long list, are just symptoms. You don’t treat symptoms you treat diseases. Her disease is abuse and she needs to see someone that specializes in childhood sexual abuse for adult patients. Unfortunately that specialty is a growing business because of so many cases like your wife’s. But it also means that where ever you live you should be able to find someone specializing in that subspecialty. Normally it is individual therapy and a lot of group therapy with other abused women. There are also abused men but typically they try to separate them for groups so both sexes feel more comfortable.

Child abuse is a well studied topic in school for psychologists because of its far reaching effects. My girlfriend said to be certain that your wife sees someone specializing in “childhood sexual abuse for adult patients”. Addiction specialists, PTSD specialists, etc. are simply not going to be able to relate as well to your wife’s situation. Lastly, your wife’s situation is not hopeless. Chances are very good with treatment and your support that she will do very well.

I think I got all of the important points down from our discussion; my girlfriend probably would have done better at writing this rather than me taking notes like a class lecture. Let everyone know when your wife gets into therapy and how she is doing in it.

That is a very intense story.

That is a very intense story. From my experience, it has taken 9 years of very deliberate sexual healing with the help of professional counselors to even be at the point of talking about karezza. Sexual trauma is a very serious thing and your wife has experienced in in an acute way.

She may need a lot of time to heal personally before she can be there for you physically. I also think that you and her will not be able to do it alone. My wife and I were not, we had many years of professional counseling and we took each small breakthrough as a victory. By small, I mean very small and very slow.

Hearing this story makes me think that the entirety of the focus needs to be on healing her wounds for a while (and maybe a longer while than you would like). You can not muscle your way through this kind of pain. You can not fix it with good intentions. But it CAN heal, it just may take more patience than you believe you have within you. I can tell that you do have that steadiness from the way you write.

Hang in there. Don't try to do it alone. While her “injury” is deep within her soul, it is as real and as acute as a broken leg. You would treat a broken leg with a certain level of care and I believe the same holds true here. While this site will be immensely helpful in your journey and may serve to keep you grounded, I don’t think it can be the entirety of your answer.

Here are a few things we discovered on our journey of healing, this is not advice but simply our experiences:
- It felt like healing was impossible, like we would bare the burden forever. We even discussed how to just accept it into our lives and be the best we can be anyway. That IS NOT true, don’t ever give up. She can heal, but it will not be quick or easy.

- It took us a while but we identified the “triggers” for her PTSD response. Orgasm was a big one. (It is funny though, that we never considered simply not having orgasms! Go figure). We tried to build our relationship around things that avoided the triggers. This included avoiding certain places, not discussing certain things and even not watching certain TV shows.

- Sexual abuse and trauma is extremely isolating. She feels like she is the only one in the world who has what she has. This is not true, and every time we connected with something or someone who made her feel less alone, it was a major breakthrough. This is not you being able to listen or understand, this is finding other people who have experienced what she has, people who have the same scars.

- We never never never gave up. She always said that she was committed to doing whatever it takes and I always said that I believed she will heal. There were times it was hard to truly believe that, but we always said it anyway.

- During her sexual healing, she could not carry my burden as well. I simply could not place my sexual tension and frustration on her at that point in our lives. I delt with it in my own ways on my own and if I needed to talk I found other guy friends to talk to. I am sure some would disagree, but that is what I believe was right. I would not ask someone with a broken leg to help carry my weight.

Thank you so much for your

Thank you so much for your writing. It is helping me more than you may realize. I have been in counseling for a year and a half now and just in the last two months or so my wife agreed very hesitantly to go to couples counciling. It has been difficult not pushing and only allowing things like counciling to happen when it is her idea. She is slowly realizing I think that she actually is a part of the problem. It is a problem when you don't realize your broken leg is no where near healed.
I hope I am strong enough. I am a sex addict.. an orgasm addict more accurately. I swear it is odd how fate pairs up lovers. I know it is an arduous road ahead.. I honestly hope I live long enough to have a healthy happy life with her. I am only 51 but this is a long process. Sometimes I feel like starting over with someone new. Then I see her pain and I realize how much I love her and the tenderness she has inside.. I can't let her suffer the rest of her life and likely into the next.. I have to have compassion for myself too.. but where does that just become selfish. How long .. some days and especially lonely nights I just don't know.

Thank you both for sharing

I wish all of you the very best on your journeys of healing. It gives me great comfort just reading these posts knowing that there are men out there with such love and tenderness for their partners. I have my own emotional wounds and scars (much smaller compared to the trauma these ladies have been through) but I still suffer. I have been alone for 5 years now and although I have come a long way I still have days when I feel so deeply wounded and alone. I was just getting to the point where I was prepared to accept being alone is ok except for the occasional bout of loneliness. I have days when the loneliness burns me and my heart just aches to share with someone. I hope one day a man comes into my life and has even half the tenderness you guys display towards your partners.
Any men I do meet always seem to just want sex and nothing more I know that there are good very good men out there I just hope I am lucky enough to find one.

"But we miss and love each other and want to be together."

Does she want to be together with you?

What would she say if you suggested getting back together? What would her objection be?

What if you said something like: Sex seems to cause a lot of anxiety and frustration for both of us. How about we try sleeping together for a month with sex totally off the agenda, and see how it goes? After a month we can decide how we want to proceed. We could continue on the same way, or separate again, or maybe try some sex. But I'd leave it up to you to decide what you want to do.

Just cuddling without sex can be very soothing and healing. See my story at http://www.reuniting.info/node/7970

Hey CuriousFellow :)

Hey CuriousFellow :)

I would love to have a months worth of just cuddling with an explicit agreement for no sex. I have asked if we could just experiment with me moving back in the house. She believes it is too early.

She has a lot of anger and resentment about how our sexual dysfunction has effected her views and response to intimate situations with me.. Anxiety.

Our dynamic in the bedroom became her feeling like I guilted her into spreading her legs for my stress relief and me feeling like she found me sexually repulsive. The sad part is that both of these feelings were based on fact.

This dynamic has rooted deeply in our brains. We are both wired to see sex with each other as painful and to be avoided. Reprogramming or rewiring and subsequent reuniting is going to take time and baby steps.. It is difficult to let go of fear and anger. Especially in this scenario because acting from instinct .. the primitive part of the brain it is fight or flight.. neither of which is leads to cuddling or intimacy.

The prefrontal cortex needs to rewire... become stronger I think. Especially in her before she can rationally forgive and process the trust required for any length of experimentation with the person who has the potential to put her into what her reptilian brain says is sex slavery.

This may sound extreme but I believe it is the reason. A fundamental loss of trust. Yes a month of cuddling would go a long way to regain the trust but not until she is ready... and it is her idea.

Oh and yes. She wants to be

Oh and yes. She wants to be with me. The men she has been with since we have been separated she says are men she could never see having any long term relationship with. She has said point blank that she wants us to be together.. she just doesn't know if we can be happy together.

She wants to be with you...

but she doesn't know if you can be happy together.

She wants to be together with you, but she thinks it's too early to get back together.

Does she realize how crazy that sounds?!

Does she want to be together with you? Yes or no?!

There have probably been about a hundred episodes throughout my marriage where my wife has slept in another bed separate from me. Sometimes it was because she was angry with me. A lot of the time it seems like she just didn't want to be bothered by me. She couldn't get enough sleep if she was in the same bed with me.

When she would come back and sleep with me, always, within a few days, she would offer to have sex. (I should mention that I seldom ask for sex, and only ask when I think there is a good chance she will agree. I don't like to annoy her by asking too often, and I don't like being rejected.)

So if your wife is somewhat like mine, your biggest obstacle is just getting to sleep together for a few nights in a row. After that, she might agree to let you stay for a longer period or permanently. And she might even offer sex. But I would suggest that you decline such an offer for now. Say, "Things always seemed to go downhill whenever we had sex in the past. I'm really enjoying the sleeping together and the snuggling. Let's just keep doing that for now. Maybe a month from now we can discuss what we want to do about sex."

But how to get over that initial obstacle of sleeping together every night? Can you ask to take it one night at a time? Just ask to sleep together for one night, with no pressure from you to have sex. If that goes OK, you can ask for another night, and another, and in a few days it will be the new routine.

I'd avoid sexual touching for a while. Maybe she could spoon you - might be less threatening and arousing for her than other cuddling positions.

Good luck!

Thank you for the suggestions

Thank you for the suggestions. I really appreciate the specifics. I know it does sound odd for her to want to be with me but also not. I don't understand it either. For me the crude phrase "shit or get off the pot" comes to mind a lot. We have spent a couple nights together. I thought it was becoming a regular request but the last onee was New Years eve .. and it went fine.. I massaged her back until she fell asleep but she requested I sleep on the couch so the squeaky bed where we were at didn't wake her when I role over etc.

So I can relate to how your wife couldn't sleep well when you are in the bed. There is also a worry for her about me snoring.. which I seldom do .. but even my breathing got to her in the end of our sleeping in the same bed. Even before our separation a year or so ago.. I slept on the couch for a few years close to every night. Talk about lack of bonding.

I am feeling a little hopeless today. Especially after writing this .. and realizing the magnitude of all that has to change. Unfortunately me pushing us sleeping together would cause as much anxiety in her as pushing for sex would. She doesn't sleep well even by herself... maybe especially by herself.. I don't know.

If a pin drops it wakes her up. It isn't all of her that wakes up though. It is a irrational angry tyrant .. her primitive reactive brain lashes out literally.. sometimes even physically kicking.. wakes up and can't go back to sleep. God forbid I be the one who "dropped the pin" or suffer the wrath.

Maybe I am wrong but I also attribute this behaviour to her PTSD. I mean it feels just like the veteran angrily waking from a flashback dream.

I relate to it by remembering back to my childhood. What would it have been like if my life had been like hers. Her severe sexual abuse. From six years old to twelve.. those years were what formed who I am. The best years. I imagine for all those years a real monster possessed one of my parents.. the parent who loved me most.. I would never know what night it would be.. but some nights he would come through my bedroom door and painfully force a hidden part of himself into my body. I didn't understand. Is this what life is? Do all dads do this? It doesn't feel OK. I felt I was going to die..I am helpless.. the one who is supposed to love and help me is the monster.

I think about this happening to her randomly year after year. Before she even knew what her developing body was about. As it developed it was violated and hurt and bled.

I wouldn't sleep well either. So I had no problem with her fear and anger. I just selfishly had.. have my own needs that would lose patience and act hurt or make her feel guilty so she would allow me in again and then I became the monster in her mind.

So patience again becomes my mantra. Subtle suggestions that don't push the anxiety. Thank you especially for reminding me if she ever does want me sexually again I should restrain a bit. I realize in my needyness or want for deeper connection.. that connection doesn't require I shove a body part inside her to satisfy some goal oriented notion. I will continually remind myself of this.

Yes the bed at her house has

Yes the bed at her house has memory foam now and that helped the couple times I slept at her house/our house. The cabin we were at on New Years didn't. Old squeeky springs = disaster. Herbal tea is a great suggestion too..
Right now for her it is usually Tylenol PM.. when I sleep over ear plugs go in her and a nose breathing strip for me. At least the couple times that I slept over this worked.. I'm not a fan of Tylenol PM ie . Dosing with benadryl.. but desperate delicate times.