Fail (but not really)

Submitted by UM Rev on
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When we fell in bed last night I reminded my wife that the night's Exchange called for dancing.
"I'm too tired to dance. What else?"
"Well, the other option would be for each of us to choose a non erotic bonding behavior."
"Sounds good. How about foot massages?"
"Perfect."

Problem is, As I massaged her feet, I began to climb higher and higher. Plus, PW didn't motion me away as she had in the past.
Long story short, we were both ready to bag the Exchanges for at least a time.

She immediately got extremely turned on. I ejaculated almost immediately, without the O.
She didn't O, but she was extremely frustrated at the end. She did, however, go to sleep OK.

We've already decided to forego the exchanges again tonight. We're failures, but that's OK. We're loving each other. Not sure if we'll ever figure this out for us, but we're having fun while we're trying. Smile

I'll keep you all informed.

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Orgasm happens

I'm the first to say I have no experience with Karezza or a PMO addiction. But I think the best thing you can do is forgive yourself and look at how much better things have become for the two of you in a relatively short time. Go back to the ecstatic exchanges of bonding behaviors that get you too into less trouble, you crazy kids you ; )

I dunno what we will do with you guys either!

I just feel so grateful that my beloved has become a co-rock in monitoring our escalation. Many couples have one who is more excitable, which must be harder, but more or less manageable with one alert boatman. To have two excitable parties, well that spells trouble i guess!

The Next Day Was No Better (or worse)....

...which depends on your perspective.

Yesterday we made great progress cleaning out our basement. I know cleaning out a basement wouldn't normally be included in any plot for leading up to romance, but working on mundane stuff like that is a real turn on for my wife. In other words, both of us fell off the wagon pretty mightily again, as last night we both went over the edge and did just about everything imaginable. Pretty fun, though. We're both so happy with our relationship, so it doesn't matter how much progress we make in the Karezza department.

And yes, I will be monitoring our moods for the next few days in order to see how our recent escapades may have affected them.

Have a great week everyone.

Rev

I've followed your journey since coming to this site, which seems like quite the ride, but have not had so much time lately and have not posted to your threads, well maybe once.

Now that I have a few moments I thought I would share my perspective from a man's viewpoint. Maybe it will help, maybe not.

What strikes me about your approach/attempts at more conscious lovemaking is that your male neediness is compromising your masculine direction and clarity. While this is not the end of the world, and we all stumble along as we get the feel of what this kind of sexuality looks like, you do run the risk of loosing your partners trust to some extent. Trust lost is usually harder to get back than when it was first given freely. In a way, when you first start out on the karezza journey you get grace period, like a second honyemoon, dont squander it. Also, if you dont take and hold the masucline direction your partner may take it for you, usually not with the best outcome.

My first suggestion is to get a firm hold of your own orgasm and learn to stay away from ejaculation, period. Not an easy task for most men. I find its a strong statement to the feminine when you can hold your biological urges steady. It creates a space that the woman can expand into. Second, if you're going to direct the both of you to do the exchanges and stay away from heating it up, then STICK TO IT. Hold steady, be the anchor, dont waver. Dont make excuses, just do it. If you want her to give you her feminine gifts, which all us men want, then make sure you give your masculine gifts of direction and clarity of purpose. Dont let your male neediness run you around, it wont get you where you want to go.

Believe me, I do understand. Staying on track with a radiant woman in your bed is no easy task, but if I can do it so can you.

All I can say

is each man is different, each is unique. The same with women, and couples in general. While I do appreciate your comments and expertise, I do believe my wife and I are ultimately on the right track. If I recall correctly, you began Karezza without knowing there was a name to it. You did not do the 3 week exchanges. So far I have found no one on this site, besides Marnia and Gary, who have done them. In short, the Exchanges are not easy. I still don't consider it a failure.

We began these Exchanges In the midst of a period that I call a wonderful resurrection of our marriage. My wife calls our experience our salvation. Our marriage changed as a result of a couple who decided that life was too short to be living as bickering singles under one roof. It has continued to improve through daily bonding. Karezza is something both of us have decided to explore, and both of us have had obvious difficulty sticking to them. But after 28 years, I don't believe these types of "failings" will jeopardize our marriage. Our marriage will be jeopardized should I again put anything else above my marriage. It will fail if I take my wife for granted. And it will flourish as I continue to ovingly give her the attention she deserves. For my wife, our relationship is strengthened when I do those little things for her that may seem trivial. She appreciates those things a lot. Yesterday as we were working on cleaning out our basement, she walked over and planted a kiss on me. At least for the two of us, little stuff like cleaning out basements together will do a lot to keep us bonded together.

And, We are learning from our so called "failings." We talk about them. Before we began the Exchanges I had learned how easy it is to forego ejaculation. This has transformed our relationship. This afternoon I came home for dinner. Since I had more work to do later I asked if we could share and do our Exchange tonight. As we talked, we shared about last night. PW shared that while she really enjoyed her O, she didn't seem as driven this time to "go for it." Hmmmmm, we are changing....

In short, our time together is so far different now than it was before, I cannot believe how different and better it is. So guys and gals, my wife and I are getting there. We are fine. We're more than fine. I'm hoping that, by posting our grand successes as well as our bumps along the road, we will give inspiration to others who aren't doing this perfectly yet either. For those who may be reading these blogs, wondering if there is hope for their relationship, I am here to say there IS hope. If you are married, begin the process of renewal by claiming and maintaining those promises made on your wedding day:
to "Love,
Comfort,
Honor,
Keep,
Have ,
Hold, and
Cherish,

no matter what,

For as long as you live.

It's been an awesome journey so far. Thanks for reading, and thanks for the feedback. I'll keep you all up to date.

Actually, when we started I

Actually, when we started I came at this from a Taoist approach which meant my wife merrily had all the orgasms she wanted which actually went up considerably after I became non-orgasmic. It wasnt until years later that she decided to become non-orgasmic as well. We didnt know there was a word called "karezza" for what we were doing.

What I was saying was to pick an approach and stick with it no matter what the impulses and desires say. Whether its the exchanges or some other practice, holding the masculine focus is what I was addressing.

I have a close male friend who will share something with me and say, "I'm just telling like I see it". I love that. I feel he's sharing his masculine perceptions and insights with me, not whats right or wrong. Thats a real gift to me.

So, for you, "I'm just telling it like I see it" Hopefully there's something there you can find some truth in.

Of course we all bounce around as we find our footing in new territory. There's no failures, only learning.

I hear ya

This the approach that I have decided to take. I am making the concious decision to forgo orgasms and ejaculations. However, I am not going to push anything on my wife. She will choose her own path.

I read a tantra book by an author named Yogani. He said that when men decide to conserve their sexual energy they often find that their partners become very orgasmic for a while. For many women, they have never experienced such strong flows of masculine energy before. It overwhelms them a little bit. Yogani is of the opinion that the man should just let his partner experience that phase of hyper-sexuality for a while. Eventually most women will come back down to Earth on their own.

As far as I am concerned, it would be a great training opportunity. If my wife is having a huge orgasm and I can manage to stay in control of my sexual energy (not go over the edge with her) then that is aces for me.

I love that

I love what Yogani says and I feel that is true in my case. I've said before that my lover's penis "decides" whether I have an orgasm or not...I don't go looking for them...I am relaxed and most of the time in a state of total abandonment when they happen. The good thing is my lover is no longer so affected by them (he holds his own, so to speak!).

As time passes, I am sure I will find them happening to me less and less, but I *do* think at times I am powerless against the male energy. And that is fine with me! So far, no emotional ripples have stemmed from them (and much of that has to do with learning that I am not my mind nor my emotions and just letting things "be").

Louie, I think you're really

Louie, I think you're really on it and your approach will go far in uniting you both together. It is my observation that what you posted about women becoming more orgasmic once the man gets control of his ejaculation is true in many cases.

It is my view that there are kind of three stages in the movement towards deep relational harmony that karezza offers. Stage one is where the man gets a hold of and masters his urge to ejaculate. Without this the woman cannot take her rightful place at the center of the sexual experience, which is stage two. Some women stay in this stage for a while enjoying the hyper-sexuality you mention. My wife did this. Others stay a little while and others dont need this stage much at all. I think stage two is more about the woman taking center stage sexually and going where ever she wants. Something that few women get to experience since most men have not developed the self control to create the space required for women to even have this kind of experience.The third stage is where the woman joins the man in avoiding orgasm and together they move to the deeper experience which lies beyond orgasm in the energetic connection between two souls. Stage one must take place due to the physical and energetic makeup of the male psyche, but I believe stage two can be skipped, depending on the woman, what her history is and what she needs. I also percieve that the woman stays at the center of the sexual experience in stage two and three but in two its about her own experience and in three its about what is created through connection in the sending and receiving.

Whats the title of the book by Yogani? I may be interested in reading it.

By the way, if your wife decides to go wild in the stage two part, your in for quite a ride, which can be a mixed blessing sometimes.

Stages

I like your overview of the stages. I think stage 2 is the stage in which women learn to trust the masculine energy of their partner. It is only when she is ready to open fully and accept the masculine energy at her deepest levels that they can settle into stage 3.

Stages

While I understand the human need to categorize and organize things, the idea of assigning three stages bothers me. To me, stages = expectations. And expectations = not being in the present moment. And I also think it could lead a man to be disappointed in the relationship he has at hand because he feels it has not reached some predetermined level.

Also, Darryl, you and Annabelle are far too young to have "finished" with karezza! Who knows what the next 20/30/40 years will hold? Three stages? Maybe there are sixteen, lol!

I also don't think being orgasmic and having the energetic connection between two souls are mutually exclusive. You can have both. Or neither. Some days a couple might be still and quiet and other days their bodies might be highly electric and charged and orgasmic. That has been our experience so far.

The *only* thing that doesn't change is our presence to each other and to our bodies and to the moment. And for me, that is really all that is important.

No two couples are going to follow the same path, the same stages, the same way to enlightenment~~there are so many variables and my experience I'm sure has been and will be far different than anyone else's.

For some, it may not be their time to discover this and appreciate it. A woman's age, her priorities in life, her relationship with her partner, her ability to let go of self-consciousness, her time of the month, lol~~all these things can change what is going to happen on an hourly, daily, monthly or yearly basis.

The thing I love *most* about this journey is every single time we connect it's different and amazing in its own way. Whether we just plug in and go to sleep or have a session where I have places that need to be healed and he has energy he needs to release and whether we release it together or separately...it's always different and we always try to let the *moment* dictate what we do (the only importance orgasm has is in not thinking ahead to it or expecting it or even trying to *not* have one).

I really do get what you're trying to say, but I think it's limiting in a way. The title of this thread is what makes me feel that way~~nobody fails when they are in love, expressing their love, being present to each other and giving of themselves to one another.

Finally!

Thank you, Rachel! You and Marnia seem to be the most understanding here. I'm sounding sexist, but it must be a guy thing. It sounds like, for men, the ability to have sex with no goal of O in sight could itself become a goal. For the two of us, I really don't think we made any mistakes, at least in this department. We were just learning. Eastern religions are very new to both of us. At the same time, the concepts are so intriguing, and when the Robinson's knowledge and experienced is brought in to the mix, well, it's all worth continuing to explore.

Anyway....everyone should be pleased that my wife and I made love this afternoon, and neither of us were driven to orgasm. We both just enjoyed ourselves for a little over an hour, and then we were finished. I just shared this with Louie in one of his posts. Karezza

I think we're finally just settling down more. School has started (she's in education), which means a different routine. We are together less frequently, but so far we are at least bonding together almost daily. That's very important to us right now.

Thanks again, everyone.

Nah, the guys

just didn't want you to overshoot the target...for your own good. Wink

It's fine that you're making your own way. We're all rooting for you, trust me.

Did you know that some sects of early Christians appear to have had a version of this practice? I'm not suggesting you "lay it on" your parishoners, but it fascinates me. If you have any interest in this, I can recommend some reading material.

Maybe you named my problem,

because I wasn't aware of any target.! Right now I'm on a wonderful renewal with my wife. Our love life has been completely transformed. We aren't suffering. We aren't goal seeking. We just let what ever happens, happen. My neediness has lessened a great deal. Sometimes (like yesterday ) we do not O, and at other times (like this afternoon) we do. I am confident that as PW becomes more in tune with the feel of just enjoying the moment, with no goals, t the O's will become fewer and fewer. We're both ok with that. We're not rushing it. Because of our schedule, we pvi maybe two or three times a week and do our best to bond on the other days, even if that means just sitting close. she is not to the point where she can bond in the nude. It just gets her too excited. So, that's our story. Our lives wouldn't make for a very interesting plot for a novel, but that's OK.

I'm OK with the input. I should be. After all, if I didn't want to hear feedback, I wouldn't be posting anything. At the same time, I do try to take much of the advice with a grain of salt, especially if I know if the advice giver is fairly new to this also.

And about the early Christians....yes, please, fill me in. Are you referring to the people mentioned in your book?

You are!

You *are* too young and I imagine your story will change again and again over time~~

And I really do appreciate what you are trying to do with setting out stages...but I think we will find as we listen to more and more couples come on board that what we will hear is a different and unique story from each one. And I look forward to that! (and I miss Virgil! wish he would come back and share where he and his wife are at now in their journey)

I'm always going to think it's not *what* you do that is important, but *how* you do it. Avoidance of orgasm does not guarantee a blissful, soul-sharing moment and having one does not necessarily negate it~~does that make sense? But for some, that may not be the goal anyway. Some might want the stability and balance that comes from almost daily connection and that is enough. But some might want more...each couple will be different. And I say "couple" although sometimes one partner wants one thing and the other wants another.

And probably the "wanting" is what has to stop and then things will flow as they should...let the bodies flow, stay present, and see what happens! (then come back and report it here because we love hearing about it!)

Smile

Well, now this is a good

Well, now this is a good conversation. You know me Rachel, I'm all about the qualities of the masculine and feminine, bla, bla, bla. And to me you express quite beautifully those exquite feminine qualities that us men love to drink in. I love your input here.

So I say, (and this is generalizing) that "what" tends to be about masculine qualities and "how" the feminine one's. Need them both from what I can see. The back and forth between the "what" and "how" reminds me of the dance between the masculine and feminine. A blending and a tussle, all at the same time. The juice of life for me. What a fine balance it is. Like every couples story is the same while simultaneously being unique and different to only them. We all breathe but within each breath we are a complete world. Boy, is this sappy poetic or what!

Yeah, I'd like to hear from Virgil too.

Yes

Yes, we need them both and that is what karezza/tantra brings to each human being~~a nice balance of both. (and thank you, Darryl, for being so sweet to me)

In a lot of ways, though, I think the "how" of tantra is harder for the woman when it comes to sexuality (and many times women will perform the "what" out of duty or routine and not out of pure desire or want)~~men seem to be able to immerse themselves in the moment of sexuality so much easier and we woman need to learn from that! Our multi-tasking brains have a harder time leaving the world of thought behind (and yes, I'm generalizing here, too, from my own experience).

I think many women might be afraid that if they let go completely and become totally in the present and in their bodies during sex they will lose their identity (whether it be mother, dutiful wife, worker bee, taskmaster, whatever). But in actuality, it brings life to *everything* you do and makes going about daily functions and routines so much more peaceful and enjoyable~~and life starts to just flow.

It's wonderful~~I think we can agree on that, right? Smile

Of course I agree, and even a

Of course I agree, and even a guy like me with all my "direction" talk loves to be in that flow. I also really appreciate hearing what can be challenging for the woman as I tend to focus on my masculine challenges and forget the women have their challenges with leaning into expansion too.

Thats it

That is the one. This was the first book that I read on Tantra. It is a great resource.

However, I have two warnings about it:

1) It promotes sexual edging to some degree which could set off the same dopamine/prolactin cycles as orgasm and also stress the nervous system if you do too much of it.

2) It promotes using the blocking method to prevent loss of semen.

I would encourage readers to ignore these two points while reading the book. Blocking is not entirely healthy and edging can be counter productive.