Pensive wife

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I just learned almost a month ago that hubby has been looking at porn and MOing with fantasy for the last six years and lying about it. We are calling this round two because I learned he did this (even before meeting me) two years into our marriage. We naively tried to deal with it on own own for awhile but went for SA specialized counseling because that wasn't working. Neither did the counseling. In fact, there seems to be more damage on his end because of it. It helped me tremendously. Then awhile later we got divorced. A year later, we got back together. We lived together for three years and then got married and bought a house. (Three kids btw).

So another three since buying the house. Shortly after moving here, I learned of the autism spectrum from researching some of our kids' behavior. The short story, he and 2 of the kids (his bio kids) were diagnosed on it. So...all those behaviors I thought were exclusively due to aspergers were not.

Things had to get really crazy before he could muster up the courage to tell me. It was all very dramatic. At first he was denying it was an addiction, he's just been able to refer to it as that within the last two weeks. Thank god for Wish that had been there during the first round 9 years ago. this site is a god send as well.

Ironically, I found this site on July 2 of this year when I did a google search for "oxytocin and sex" while at my wits end with our constant ups and downs because we had decided to explore tantra because I was wanting to take ownership of my emotional bs. We had a sexless (10x or less per year) sex life. (thinking that would be the perfect solution to our sexual wounds. He - a past addiction and me - sexual abuse.) Wow, what a journey this summer turned out to be.

I have had my really down moments although at first it was relieving to have a bigger picture of reality. But I did have to process things from 6 years worth of living and all those "intimate moments" this summer and especially the bold faced lies during those intimate moments. So info from this site about karezza started the journey of sexual exploration that is leading me back here for another reason. Lol, we even watched the videos on porn addiction and he didn't flinch. The torture I'm sure he suffered. Needless to say, trying out karezza provided him with a taste of 'true intimacy' he said. Despite that couldn't hold him over long due to the novelty wearing off.

So here we are...again. 13 total years of being together. He says he wants to stay together and try karezza for real this time. I'm willing to since I am willing to believe he never took the behavior live but he keeps wavering on acting remorseful. Driving me nuts. Unfortunately, we have had more sex since July than probably the last 5 years. And he Oed last weekend attempting karezza. We each are reading Cupid and he still doesn't seem to be trying to be aware of withdrawal. He says he isn't having them, hasn't Med in 2 months and porn in a month. I'm trying to piece the picture together to determine what to expect and be as understanding as I can. Obviously I'm succeeding in that at times otherwise he wouldn't have sex with me, right? Yet at times he says things like "Why don't you just leave then?" leaving me to wonder if he'a omitting things, having withdrawal, or he can't handle my emotions. Maybe all of the above, maybe just the latter two. Sure doesn't help with rebuilding trust though. I read about recovery that the best approach is the 'no option' attitude and I completely agree. He says he does too but is giving me a hard time about putting monitoring software on his phone (only point of access he says) so he knows it can't be hidden and serve as a deterrent. That makes me suspicious. He has agreed but keeps coming up with excuses of why he has an issue with it. First bc he didn't want to jailbreak his phone, then because he felt demoralized as a human for having no privacy, then no privacy for emailing our therapist." BUT, let's go ahead and put it on!" I don't think I'm being unrealistic here. He has drastically affected my life, our kids' life in so many ways with this. I've tried to convince him he's not a POS but he gives me a hard time about this one thing about something he wants to stop anyway. I don't know what the hell to believe! But it's my bottom line at this point. Also he is only talking about bonding, not initiating it because he's upset about the monitoring thing.

All in all, he's accessed porn via Internet for 15 years and pic porn prior for over a decade. 25+ years in one form or another. Is this salvagable or am I wasting my time? I love this man dearly. Just not sure if it's mutual. Any insight would truly be cherished.



the bonding stuff is critical

I am so sorry for your obvious angst and the deep sadness and frustration you are going through. I totally get it.

But although I hate to put it this way, is it really your business if he is masturbating? Your business is your business. If he is behaving badly or whatever, that's your business. I was masturbating to porn for many years and suffering some effects but my wife never knew until I stopped and told her. 

Be that as it may, the way to patch things back together is to do a lot of bonding. That is the foundation, I think, of a deep romantic bond. Is there a way to reclaim that?

Thanks for pouring out your heart

It doesn't sound hopeless to me, but we only have one "magic potion" to recommend here: Focus on strengthening the bond with daily attachment cues...and minimize the climaxes so you have less in the way of neurochemical ripples to deal with.

You mention that you've tried, but what exactly are you doing in the bedroom? Daily bonding behaviors? How frequently climaxing? Going close to The Edge of orgasm?

If he doesn't want to try the Exchanges, maybe he'd resonate better with this version of a similar approach: Tantric Sex For Men

Meanwhile, do your best to stop negotiating and wondering and enforcing rules. Sadly, if he isn't on board you won't be able to force him to get on board, and trying just seems to make his resentment justified (in his mind).

See if you two can be consistent with the bonding behaviors and orgasmless sex for a couple of months. If it's not working's time to hash things out some more. When someone is addicted, it takes time for him to respond normally to pleasure, so whatever happened with your earlier experiments, things may be better on another try if you can keep your spirits up. I know it's hard after a few crash landings, but don't give up.

Let us know how you're getting along. It's really difficult to stabilize a rocky situation like yours...but achieving it can be amazingly satisfying.

You might also consult our "crystal ball" Wink

Consult the Oracle


I appreciate your insights and encouragement very much. I really enjoyed your book also, recently finished it. We decided to take turns coming up with a bonding exercise each day. Yesterday was his first turn and remembered on his own and had one in mind. That was so fabulous! My heart jumped!

It's hard to put down 'bottom lines' and 'boundaries.' If I'm interpreting what you are sharing, approaching recovery from a stand point of bonding doesn't include having either of those because the rebuilding of trust comes through the bonding exclusively? Will I come across as a doormat? Don't get me wrong, I'd love to solely rely on the bonding. I have been craving that for so long. I'm sure I've had oxytocin deprivation most of our marriage due to lack of affection and on top of that I self identify as Aspie also, who have low oxytocin anyway. That's how I came to this site. But I feel in the dark about how to approach recovery this way. All the material available is so different. Some concepts make sense, others don't. I'll just keep posting here and focus on bonding.

Anyway, reading in your book about the boy who had RAD clicked for me. Researching it I found that its a co-morbid of autism spectrum disorders often. Hubby fit all the criteria. I never thought of an adult having it till I read that story. Reading the list, he identified with it. It helped bring more awareness to both of us.

If you found the RAD enlightening

be sure to listen to the radio show I took it from:

HARLOW.MONKEYS | This American Life (keep your hanky handy!)

I don't know what to tell you about boundaries. You have to make your own call. My thought is that daily bonding behaviors make any other sound therapeutic approach far more effective, simply because it eases defensiveness and projections.

Let us know how it goes.

*big hug*

Like Emerson

and Marnia I would agree, there is no substitute for bonding. My wife and I are at a much better place now than we were before we discovered Karezza about 4 months ago. The bond that has developed between us, as a result of intercourse without orgasms, is just amazing. It is also difficult to explain, but there is something to it. Its effects are real and it is well worth whatever it takes to get there. I hope that is an option for you. It sounds like you could use some gentle lovemaking in your life.
As far as your question about whether your love is mutual, only you can know that, but if you two can come to an agreement and get into a Karezza routine, I am SURE things will look very different, to you both. Good luck and keep us posted, there are lots of loving people here!

I love hearing

about real people's experience so thank you for sharing. It's also nice to know the time frame is currently four months. At what point were you noticing a difference? Our circumstances my be totally different but you are adding to my sense of hope, so thank you!!!

After the first two or three weeks

Things were noticeably better between us. It got better with time. Just being on the same page, sexually,has made the biggest difference. All the performance pressures being gone, our lovemaking turned into bonding as I am sure you have read about on this site. Karezza has so many healing qualities, I couldn't even begin to list them all. It is a wonderful thing that must be experienced in order to fully understand what takes place. I hope you can get there someday very soon! Keep us posted & don't give up. Cheers


Quit worrying about what each other is doing, and start spending a couple of hours a day of skin contact. One easy way to do this in the start is while watching the idiot box. This is kind of like training wheels for bonding. After a short time it becomes habitual, and youll both miss cuddles after even a single day without it.

It sounds weird i know, like some kind of goofy, lovey dovey couple, but its about borrowing these bonding cues from parent/child intimacy/attachment cues to counteract our biological desire to partner shed.



[quote=treehouse]start spending a couple of hours a day of skin contact. One easy way to do this in the start is while watching the idiot box..[/quote]

You must keep your TV room as warm as toast, or else you're hardier than we are. We can't sit around naked in our house - unless we're in direct sunlight - at any time of year, without shivering; and in dank November, my wife is wearing three layers as she gets into bed.

Maybe you live in the tropics or have an inexhaustible supply of heating fuel?

It's a great idea, though.

Yes kind of

Since we discovered karezza this year we have been keeping the house warmer. But we also keep a duvet in the living room, and if its cooler we'll strip off our lower halves and one of us will sit at one end of the couch and invite the other between their legs, then toss the duvet over us. I just love to hold her, its fantastic. Still learning to accept being held.

We find its much less hassle to do karezza when the house is warm, and there isnt bedding everywhere. But theres other things going on as well, for instance I look at her quite differently, less oglingly. And i dont think this is soley about more time spent in less dressed states. I think its a corollary or somehow connected to the way that we now make love. As i stop seeing my penis as a tool of excitement, this somehow translates to me stopping seeing her body as a vessel for lust.

Lately ive been calling her an angel, and i see this as one part oxytocin, and one part personal healing. The big gift from karezza for me is that im learning for the first time in my life that that the significant woman in my life is no longer saying that i cant have my needs met.

Id say we've used about 50% more solid fuel than previous years! Oh well, at least its carbon neutral.


[quote=treehouse]We find its much less hassle to do karezza when the house is warm, and there isnt bedding everywhere..[/quote]

I absolutely concur with that. I've been trying to work out how to create a cuddling/lovemaking area that we can get warm fairly quickly that doesn't involve heating the whole house and isn't based in or around our bed. I thought of building an insulated box, a room within a room, with a small space heater inside; but maybe it would be better to move out of our cold, draughty house into a double glazed caravan in the yard.

I've been wondering about nakedness and excitation, too. I must admit, I still like sailing on, or rather with, my "Vessel for Lust", on the open, rapturous sea; but our outings are getting rarer; and we find we're spending a lot more time these days on a simple raft, floating in a Sea of Tranquillity.

I've always been faintly troubled by the thought of my wife as a goddess. After all, wouldn't that make me a god? To think of her as an angel seems more appropriate; but aren't angels traditionally masculine?

It makes perfect sense

to me to engage in the innate child/parent bond. I've always thought of marriage as a tweaked interdependence version of the child/parent bond. As a mother, it's just obvious that everyone needs bonding to have a sense of belonging. Trouble is we expect everyone as adults to have that established and only time can tell of its not. I'm good with lovely dovey as long as it's the real deal.

I'm not a TV watcher which probably really makes me boring to hubby's super stimuli mind. :(

TV can never

supply a bonding behavior. Wink

But it will take time for the effects of daily bonding behaviors to kick in. Meanwhile, the TV may trump you for a while. Don't take it personally, because it is no comment on you. It's just where both your brains are.

When my husband and I got together and he bravely tried the Exchanges (a true scientist at heart...), he was amazed by the gradual changes. Later he said, "I feel like my brain grew new oxytocin receptors." And maybe it did! But my point is that it will take time. You have to look at long-term progress, because day-to-day results will bounce around for a couple of months.