Karezza for me not her

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I started this thread to comment and discuss times when one partner is into orgasmic sex and the other is into Karezza.

So we're doing things differently. She's having her orgasms and I'm practicing Karezza. I say that because my experience is mostly Karezza. I don't come and I focus on my root and enjoy the sensations and the connection. She does for awhile and then gets more into the orgasm part. But that's great from my point of view because she feels freed from being controlled or influenced by me. I am able to reverse a mistake I think I made a year ago.

That mistake was trying to influence her not to have orgasms. She became self conscious and shut down. Now she's opening up again. It's a little strange for me because it's a bit of a flip flop during sex. I guess it's a lot more like "hot Karezza" a la Stanley Bass. But whatever. It seems to be working.




I think this is normal

I think that what your wife is doing is very normal for women who have repressed their sexual energy to some extent. I have read about this in the Advanced Yoga Practices (AYP) books, Mantak Chia books and Barry Long books.

When a woman first starts to encounter true loving sexuality, she may find that a flood gate opens inside of her and all kinds of repressed sexual energy explodes out. She may go through a period of being highly orgasmic. This will continue until her pent up sexual tension has been sufficiently released. Then she can settle down and be more relaxed about the whole thing.

An orgasm is really just an explosive release of tension. That is part of why people love it so much. In addition to the dopamine, they also feel much less tense after an orgasm. However, as we all know, there is a cost for that massive release so I am certaintly not recommending it!

Since orgasm is a release of tension, it stands to reason that the less tense you are, the less likely you are to orgasm. Give your wife some time to just relax and do whatever feels good and she will start to become less orgasmic as time goes by. I think the stage that you guys are at sounds pretty much spot on. Just go with it for now and don't worry about it.

As an aside ... men have become conditionned the believe that being a good lover requires that they give their lady a big O any time she wants one. It is deemed to be a failure if she does not get an O. However, in order for her to have an O she first has to build up enough tension to require an explosive release of that tension. Most of what men consider to be good sexual technique involves seriously amping up the level of tension in the female body. We have to work pretty hard sometimes to create an effect that is not really good for them. Crazy isn't it?


Thats exactly what my wife did Emerson. Orgasms a go-go for quite some time, especially with a karezza man. Karezza seems to make many women more orgasmic. If she really gets going it will be a good thing you practice non-orgasmic love making or you wont be able to keep up. She'll come around in her own time. Ahh, the mysteries of feminine ways. Each woman is so different.

thanks Darryl

I know you did that Darryl. Makes perfect sense.

My mistake was in being coercive enough for my wife to shut her down. It doesn't take much because she has some issues about sex anyway and takes her lead from me. So when I started Karezza I foolishly tried to influence what she does and she shut down and stopped feeling it.

I did stop making a big fuss and stopped looking glum if she turned me down, and I stopped being so serious about things at times. She says my behavior in that way improved.

But I also had some serious talks with her. I think the talks moved her to keep trying harder and see that this wasn't an issue that would go away.

But in the end, it isn't about talk at all. 

We still have a ways to go but it's better this way. So I'm learning to follow what she wants, her lead, truly, while remaining non-orgasmic and enjoying the sensations and pleasures of these wonderful feelings that I have now.


Decision making

There are two questions I keep asking myself when I read about non orgasmic men with their orgasmic partners. The first is whether the ladies are able to enjoy their orgasms more or less at will. So far as my wife is concerned, who although she enjoys Karezza, says she enjoys orgasms far more, this is certainly not the case. There is nothing she can - or, at least, is willing - to do that would enable her to orgasm without my assistance. She needs me to move in a certain way, at a certain tempo, or to do certain things, for a certain length of time, before she can climax. So, matters remain very much in my hands.

This leads directly to the second question, which is whether the right course of action is to make sure she has an orgasm every time sex occurs, as she would prefer, even though I might believe this is unhealthy; to never overtly help her have an orgasm, so as to avoid the possibly negative repercussions; or to do as I'm currently doing, which seems to be a case of haphazard rationing of her orgasms, according to my mood of the moment.

A major component of that mood, of course, is the knowledge that in helping my wife reach orgasm, I generally need to step out of 'Karezza mode' lovemaking, which increases the likelihood I will go on to have an orgasm, too - or at least get excited enough to want one.

Is anyone else in a similar quandary?

yeah pretty much

but what I'm doing is sensing if she really wants an orgasm. Then I can do those things that she likes and that often lead to an orgasm for her. I am still generally staying cool enough not to have an orgasm myself, and she can have hers. So I am letting her call those shots and I'm getting better at picking up the queues that tell me if she wants one or not.

Sometimes people aren't quite

Sometimes people aren't quite sure in the moment. My partner and I have both come to places where part of us seeks orgasm and part of us doesn't want it. If we slow things down enough, usually the seeking side will come around. One thing that seems to help is to verbalize an openness to going either way and the let the other person select either road without inner conflict, judgment, etc. We're all somewhat conditioned to try to satisfy seeking. Supporting another person to have the choice to tackle their seeking either way might be better than trying to sense what they want. Perhaps women like men should be choosing to orgasm rather than relying on partners to deliver them an or to orgasm. The tricky thing for women who have had difficulting orgasming might be that they have to get aquianted with orgasm only to get aquainted with giving it up. More practice with giving it up might be the only way women can discover if orgasm is causing them any reason to want to give it up or if not orgasming is more suited to them.


Good questions, although personally we have moved beyond that phase, (at least for us it was a phase)

When I started being non-orgasmic I was practicing from the Taoist perspective where the guy doesnt go over the edge while encouraging the woman to orgasm as much as she wants. Karezza was not in the picture, (never heard of it) and Marnia's book as well as this website didnt exist. Could I say, "ignorance is bliss"? Your questions were no where in my paradigm. My only concern was to be able to hold my own while she did what she wanted. In that regard I would request, "slow please" and "STOP" when needed. I saw this as "I respect what you want, work with me if you will to allow me what I want". It worked well, especially as I developed the ability to handle the movement she wanted better without me going over the edge. Over time she started to notice how she felt when she didnt orgasm and preferred it, joining me in a more "karezza" style experience.

Two things, I subscribe to Louie's comments in an earlier post in this thread. Basic interpretation, "women can take some time get their "ya-ya's) out when a man holds genuine space so the woman can freely go where she wants for a while". Second, I feel strongly that the sexual domain belongs to the woman and men are naturally built to serve women in this arena. Isnt that how it works biologically?

Here's the curve ball in this perspective. Masculine energy is about direction so one could say its the man's natural place to offer direction as long as its for the good of the bigger picture not for his own purposes, which of course, can be hard to separate sometimes.

So with that said, if it was me right now I would spend time figuring out how I could best ride with the flow of my woman without going over the edge while she does what she wants to. This would be the "serve" perspective. I did some "solo cultivation" which helped me become stronger non-orgasmically. Along with this I would offer some gentle nudging of masculine direction towards karezza, provided you see that as beneficial to your relationship. This serves the masculine direction piece.

To put some historical perspective on my experience with this, it took around 5 years of almost daily orgasming on her part before she moved into the non-orgasmic realm and I dont think I even suggested that she consider forgoing orgasm until a number of years in. Hard to remember exactly, its been so long.

Taking the who is serving

Taking the who is serving whom direction as valid, is it male serving female or masculine serving feminine? There's a distinction in that the latter allows for bidirectionality between the sexes. This distinction might matter if some women have the need to yet haven't had the place to express shadow masculine aspects of their sexuality. Working with the basis that masculine orgasms more readily than feminine, women might need to explore that shadow masculine side in order to allow themselves not to orgasm. There might be a connection between the ability to orgasm and the decision not to.

Going with the flow

[quote=Darryl]So with that said, if it was me right now I would spend time figuring out how I could best ride with the flow of my woman without going over the edge while she does what she wants to..[/quote]

I was having an interesting conversation with my wife recently concerning potential relocation plans I am currently spending time and energy over. I wanted her input. Very gently, she reminded me that in this field, which objectively looks important enough to need to be a shared decision, she would far rather 'go with the flow'. In other words, she doesn't feel strongly enough about the matter to have an opinion, and would prefer I decide alone.

I reminded myself that this was how it had always been. We've moved house fairly often, and it's invariably at my insistence. If it had been up to her, we would never have left our first home. There are other areas of our life sharing this dynamic. However, there are also areas where I have learned to go with 'her' flow. In point of fact, her greatest area of influence hasn't been so much what we've done, as the way we've done it - across the board.

The field of sex seems, on the surface, to have been another of my areas. I got interested in Karezza, and assumed she would follow along - which she has, quite contentedly. However, I'm a little uneasy about this, because I sense a certain reluctance in her at being expected to forego orgasm, to the extent where it almost feels like coercion on my part.

I'm certainly directing matters more consciously than before (for the most part, my Lizard takes a back seat) but I'm not sure I know how best to serve my wife. In the past, I got so used to 'satisfying' her orgasmically when that was what she said she wanted, stopping doing so seems like a withdrawal of support. Besides, different parts of her want different things at different times, and discerning which is which, and differentiating that from what I might want myself, can be confusing.

Going with her sexual flow, as you suggest, is something I need to think about, because although I have always assumed we were operating the other way around, that was perhaps only on the surface. Underneath, all along, she may have been guiding me more than I knew.

I'm not expecting easy answers. It's obvious to me this is an evolving process that requires moment to moment decision making, not based on thinking I know what's best for her. I did think I knew that, because I assumed orgasm hangover was something I/we/she would only discover after repeated experimentation. However, rather belatedly, I've come to the conclusion that my wife doesn't suffer hangovers - from anything. Happily, I seem to be blessed with the companionship of someone for whom 'mood swing' is unknown, other than a form of dance step.

For me, however, the jury is still out.

I think it could sometimes be necessary

to help women see that their mood and perceptions may be affected by frequent orgasm. Obviously, one has to tread lightly, but sometimes it's not easy for women to make the connection amid all the hype that's out there about the vital importance of frequent female orgasm (despite very mixed evidence).

These posts are sometimes good for getting ladies thinking:

Why Stop Orgasm Research at Climax?

Women: Does Orgasm Give You a Hangover?

it can be confusing to the brain

I tried to help her over the edge and went over myself today.

I really don't like the effects of ejaculation.

'Tain't worth it.

Have to be a bit more careful. But it does confuse the brain, being in the K zone while she seems to want to get into the O zone. What confuses is as Sood writes regarding his wife, my wife also wants my help to have orgasms, and that same help can push me over the edge and certainly take me more out of the K zone and into the Dopamine zone.

Weirdly enough, I have had these thoughts lately, more dopamine type thoughts and noticing triggers. I can almost swear I knew this was going to happen. I think it is associated with her gaining some sexual energy lately and how that affects my brain, and also with her post-O fallout (and now mine.)

I am not in a situation in

I am not in a situation in which my man is abstaining and I am going for it, but rather the reverse. But from the times when we have made love with neither of us intending to orgasm, I can say that the lack of intention on my man's part to make me orgasm more likely meant that he was in a place of genuine presence which comes with it a slower tempo and which comes with it a more natural "affinity", leading to a more immediate orgasmic charge and buildup in me, leading to a state of then being able to "receive" orgasm at any time (or not). This is just shorthand for saying that karezza is much more of a turn-on than goal oriented sex, and that the orgasmic charge arises more genuinely and personally and with less effort and mechanical technique. Actually in karezza it is not that I am in a state to receive orgasm so much as receive his desire. There is a distinct tonal difference between his presence with his desire for me, his savoring of that, and his attention or will to give me an orgasm in conventional sex. There is a vibration, a frequency that emanates from his penis when he is in a state of presence and desire for me that is directed to me rather than to my genitals which is such a different "signal" to receive.

In conventional sex the man is orchestrating his movements to result in mutual orgasm, and this takes much more work on his part and so as the woman, it feels like more work to live up to that goal, ie, she is having to be "receptive" to his work and so by doing so matches his frequency or signal with a similar signal - that of work. His active signal activates her in a more masculine way as a mutual undertaking to meet the desired goal. But I think the difference is that while the will comes in in both cases, in karezza it is the will to bask in a naturally kinetic energy exchange which naturally builds an ecstatic charge, whereas in conventional sex it is the will to reach the desired orgasm which naturally builds a mechanical charge. The second option is infinitely less fun, because being receptive as a woman is generally more enjoyable than being active (for me at least). In either case, though, the orgasmic sensation or pleasure comes very much from the "presence" of the man, which could be seen as assistance in either case. But in some cases an "insistent" assistance will be a turnoff, whereas an insistent presence will be a turnon. UNLESS of course the woman is not comfortable with presence, or with the lack of guarantee of orgasm.

Since being pregnant especially, I feel like I've started to discern more where my man is coming form energetically.

It sounds to me like what you are saying, though, is that your wife isn't actually turned on by karezza sex as much as conventional sex - that karezza sex will not accidentally push her over the edge.

If I were you, I would do everything that you know she likes, only at a slower tempo and with a greater focus on the root of your penis and your penis as an antennae transmitting a signal of desire for her. Let her move in such a way that she chooses to facilitate what she enjoys, but keep your awareness as spacious and slow as possible. If she starts to get too worked up or goes to a different tempo, just ask her to stop for a minute or so. During this time, try to direct love presence affection and appreciation for her just as she is. Then either stop the lovemaking or come back to it in the same way you started, giving her what she likes but a bit slower than she likes it.

What I've learned in all this is that orgasm is a continuum, and karezza involves the same continuum, but has a different intent, focus, and level of "basking" in regard to that continuum. The juicy part is when both people are vibrating at a similar frequency, their signals are connecting. So it seems like rather than trying to parse all of this out, it might make sense to follow Darryl's advice and focus more on the signal you are giving, what you are sending out and transmitting with your penis. Maybe she's been so trained to receive only a certain kind of signal that she can't identify the other signal, the receptors haven't been developed yet. I guess you have to develop a stronger signal then. If you're not signaling her to orgasm, what are you signaling? What's your penis transmitting? Even if its not going for orgasm, it will need to transmit something. Maybe your intent to hold off on orgasm is leading to a sense of a lack of transmission?

imagine my delight

when I wake up and read this most awesome thoughtful and amazing post. 

[quote]It sounds to me like what you are saying, though, is that your wife isn't actually turned on by karezza sex as much as conventional sex - that karezza sex will not accidentally push her over the edge.[/quote]


That's what I'm saying indeed. As I read and pondered what you wrote, I realized that I have always been sexually pushing her. And that of course, in that light, she would have long long ago stopped asserting herself. So now I am going to take your advice. Do a bit of a U turn sexually and become more aware of those behaviors and try to just send my loving energy to her.

I think there is something to this "holding back" signal, but I don't want to have an orgasm and it does take a mindset not to have one. I think there is an important point here, a very important point, a way to send to her without holding back, however. 

Thank you.

This comment

Hotspring, I love your comments so much I wish I could marry them. Smile

What you said about the women turning to the masculine side of herself when trying to *please* the man by matching his orchestrations for her orgasm...SO VERY TRUE. One of the happiest things that has happened to me through karezza has been leaving behind the "I must achieve an orgasm so that he feels good about himself as a man and so we can say we have correctly achieved sexual intercourse together."

I am *so* much more orgasmic now, but it's in a divinely feminine way. I am so open to him, letting go completely, basking in his masculine presence, taking in his desire and love, while also being in control of my own thoughts and presence in order to not let them get away from me and jump ahead to an action in the future~~and because of that my body does what it wants to do and *when* it needs to do it. And on the same hand, he is completely with me in the moment, free to release his energy through my body and go to the places he yearns for and feeling loved and wanted and accepted by the woman he loves~~and we are therefore perfectly matched. In rhythm, in spirit, in energy, in actions, and in love.

I realize that not every woman is ready for this or feels a need for this type of abandonment and surrender to the feminine within her and the masculine inside her~~but once you learn how it feels, you cannot go back to the conventional way. Our orgasms (and whether we have them or not) are no longer part of the thought process or the internal dialogue. And yet...sometimes they happen and sometimes they don't, but our experience together is *always* divine and what we both happen to need at that time.

Not yet~

I was hoping it would come out on Netflix, Amazon or something similar~~and I told Diana so! If you hear of that happening, please let me know!



If I were you, I would do everything that you know she likes, only at a slower tempo and with a greater focus on the root of your penis and your penis as an antennae transmitting a signal of desire for her. [/quote]

Our situation is not sufficiently clearcut to know quite where we are in the jumble of possibilities. I'm very familiar with orchestrating mutual orgasm; but this is a minority pursuit these days, reserved for those occasions when I feel a climax for me would be a good, precautionary, prostatic measure. Most of the time I am orchestrating - or attempting to orchestrate - mutual presence. This has been reasonably successful. Slowing things down helps enormously. The trouble comes when a thought intrudes (possibly as a response to something I've intuited from my wife; possibly as a subtle way of satisfying something in me) that she would like to proceed in a more orgasmic direction.

My difficulty is learning to recognise the validity of that signal, and knowing when it is wise to respond to it. Past habits might come into play here. I spent the early years of my marriage assuming my wife was having plenty of orgasms, only to be brought up short when she explained she wasn't! I made it a point of honour from then on to ensure there was no shortfall, and to stop doing this, not at her request, but on my own initiative, doesn't always sit comfortably.

Happily, we're in a mostly contented state of flux at the moment. I wouldn't like to give the impression either of us is unhappy with the way things are. The way they could be better, though - for me - is I could be tuned in more to what my wife truly wants. I remain just a little bemused by the fact I seem to be making moves based on supposition rather than certainty.

I'm not sure whether what I am "sending out and transmitting" with my penis is constant enough to be considered one thing rather than another. It regularly alternates between presence and excitement. It's certainly true that "the orgasmic charge arises more genuinely and personally and with less effort and mechanical technique" through presence, but in our experience so far, it has been hard not to let excitation take over at a certain point, to convey us to another plane. I can see that "goal orientation" is an issue here, but since my wife finds it so intrinsically delicious to pursue that goal, I'm less than keen on refusing to assist her.

You ask: "If you're not signaling her to orgasm, what are you signaling? What's your penis transmitting?" The answer, I hope, is 'connection'. That's what lovemaking boils down to, for me. As I see it, this can happen as readily during conventional sex as Karezza, but with more likelihood of going awry. The real difficulty comes when we go out of synch. This tends to happen when my wife ratchets the heat up a little more than I care for, I pull back, which momentarily frustrates her. If she then goes for orgasm, but I don't - or even if I do - maintaining connection is tricky.

Maybe the most interesting question I could be asking myself is the nature of my wife's orgasms. Mine seem to have become steadily less exhilarating. Hers, on the other hand, having always been somewhat 'hard' and 'tight', where the main requirement appeared to be tension, including stopping breathing, up to the point of release, are now changing. She is more relaxed, more vocal (sounds, not words), more present, and remains more connected. I'm sure this is the result of changing the way we make love.

Slowing down has been key. It's the same when eating. Eating slowly is something I've been trying and failing to do for so long now I've almost lost hope. I'm too impatient to get onto the next thing. With lovemaking it's different. I'm in no hurry at all, so going slowly requires minimal effort. The difficulty is remembering that's what I want, and overriding my still ingrained habit of speeding up because it 'feels better'. Actually, it doesn't, but memories from the past claiming otherwise die hard.

Is her vagina tense or

Is her vagina tense or relaxed? Tensing the vagina causes more friction leading to more of a guarantee of a mechanical orgasm, but it also reduces sensitivity over time. I've found that even while the vagina can reach orgasm through a lot of friction, that a gradual opening of the nerves of the vagina leads to the most sensitivity - so, slow teasing play at the opening of the vagina and then gradually coming more fully into it can make the whole vagina extremely sensitive and open, including the cervix, whereas deeper penetration sooner with more emphasis on friction will lead to a tightened vagina and less sensation deeper in. Your wife could be completely differently designed I realize, or maybe has trained herself in a certain way. But my sense from your description is that she may have to struggle more for an orgasmic charge if she is holding her muscles tight or her breath. When you've learned to orgasm that way, it seems initially like relaxing the muscles and the breath would leave to the opposite effect. This is the surrender part. It's such an amazing feeling to learn that relaxation can actually result in more ecstacy, but first you have to retrain your brain to not associate relaxation with losing orgasmic charge. It's tricky, but as she lets go more and new circuits of pleasure get built, the awareness can come away from such a genital and sharp focus, and the pleasure can move through the body more and then presence and consciousness on the beloved is more possible, because the focus is no longer on the orgasm. Also, I think orgasms that result from tense muscles (ie, hard and tight) are sharper, but also shorter and more on the surface. Relaxed orgasms spread further through the body and last longer and are overall softer but also deeper. Because the ascent to sharp, tight, mechanical orgasms is so steep, it is easier for a woman to fall off before reaching the top. Whereas if she is on a long gradual and relaxed climb, they will be more inevitable. I realize its ironic talking this way, because supposedly we are interested in reducing orgasms in karezza, but I do think that orgasmic charge is part of the pleasure of karezza and a woman will still always want this charge even if she doesn't go to the end result. And being able to feel pleasure in a deeply relaxed state is the key to this.

Yes, old programs die hard.


[quote=hotspring]Is her vagina tense or relaxed? [/quote]

It's variable. I wouldn't say it was ever 'strained', in the way the rest of her body becomes as she nears orgasm. I'm inclined to think she learned that way - of tightening muscularly as excitement grows - early on, and now believes it, if not the only, certainly the most reliable way forward. In the past, whenever I've intimated that if she would relax instead, at the critical juncture, and continue breathing freely, a more spreading experience might occur, her hackles have tended to rise. With a certain amount of reason, she doubts I can possibly know better than her how to go about giving herself pleasure.

I think you've hit matters on the head when you talk about retraining the brain to not associate relaxation with losing orgasmic - or erotic - charge. This association is precisely what my wife believes (and experiences); and I've come to realise it's wholly counter productive to try and convince her otherwise, at least intellectually. Her main gripe with 'slow sex' is the feeling she has of ascending a ladder of pleasurable excitation, step by step, but then finding herself slipping down the rungs whenever there is a pause, and from there, being unable to easily climb back up, never mind get to the next plateau.

To her way of thinking, once each rung is reached, there is no purpose in returning to the one beneath it. So far as Karezza goes, she acknowledges that any climb up the ladder will stop short of the summit, but the same principle of maintaining an ever upward trajectory applies. I do think she has a point about this disturbing her rhythm. It's the result of my tendency to want to stop and start during lovemaking, usually as result of going at it too hard and fast in the first place. We're both guilty of that. However, whereas I am happy to take any number of pauses to simmer down a little, she would far rather gallop on to the end.

Part of the problem - as I see it - is the difficulty she has of operating somewhere between the active, fast tempo, with its tense, tight musculature, and very sharp mental focus, and the passive mode, where her body is almost floppy with relaxation and her mind tends to wander. On the occasions she manages to sustain 'relaxation in activity', it seems obviously better for both of us, although she claims to find it more exhausting than rewarding.

Thinking about this, something you mentioned in an earlier post about a woman possibly being "not comfortable with presence" rings a bell, here. Being present, with eyes open, and an awakened (alert rather than active, relaxed but not passive) body seems to overwhelm her, in a way that frantic busyness or passive acceptance don't. I'm not sure this is physical or mental 'tiredness' so much as some form of emotional overload. It is as if her tolerance for that sort of intensity - being on a plateau of shared pleasure, even revelling in it, without experiencing, and acting on, the need to move on - is limited. I have to add I'm not sure my tolerance is much greater - but it is certainly more than hers!

What I'm finding is I can only usefully lead by example. Explaining any of this is a waste of time, as my wife doesn't respond well to being pinned down in debate, which is how my 'explanations' too often end up. So, I endeavour to stay in the middle ground (between tension and passivity) when we make love, and hope that encourages her to do the same. That way, the possibility emerges of the slow but sure growth of erotic/orgasmic charge (in both of us) that doesn't necessarily have to end in climax.

We could both of us learn to move much more slowly. I remember once being coached to speak in public, and being asked to slow my speech down and drop pauses into it that made me feel imbecilic. I had got so used to speaking fast, I perceived it as normal. So it is with sex. Going slowly can feel snail paced to the point of absurdity.

If I'm honest, half the time, I can't sustain the necessary slowness, and the catalyst for ramping things up to the point where my wife experiences the magnetic pull of orgasmic desire is me, indulging in a bit of friction fun, and as often as not 'testing the water', to see how keen she is on doing the same.

I used to think this was unconsciously driven by my desire to 'bring' her to orgasm, with all the vicarious thrills it offered; but now I wonder if it isn't fuelled by a bedrock of unease I sense that if I don't give her the opportunity, repeatedly, I'll run the risk of being accused at some point in the future of depriving her of something irredeemably precious.

Nothing is set in stone, though. These are just my thoughts of today.

Yes, I know the feeling of

Yes, I know the feeling of having a hard time being receptive to instructions from men about how to be in my own body. Being pregnant is a prime example of a time in life when everyone has advice for me but no-one is physically going through what I am. I'm not suggesting really that you tell your wife she should make love any other way, I'm just sharing with you what has been my experience - that a tenser musculature in the vagina will lead to more friction-based pleasure, which is a "steeper" climb, and which means that yes, when the tempo is not just perfect you will "fall" down the rung, so to speak. That is because, at least as I feel I've learned, with this kind of sex the woman is not really fully turned on. She's just positioned herself to be able to manage an orgasm if the conditions remain perfectly calibrated for that steep ascent. And in this case, opening the eyes or any other form of input is distracting from the focus, or goal at hand, of getting off. A pretty closed off experience, at least as I've experienced it. This falling down the rung does not happen very drastically if even at all if the woman is truly truly turned on, buzzing on a cellular level, and totally able to relax into the continued receptivity of a polar charge rather than looking to receive a very particular movement.

My sense also is that after years and years of making love in a mechanical way, mixed with the natural dip in polar charge that occurs when two people have spent so much time together and made love so many times, is that the vagina will become resigned to things being a certain way, and it will be rather desensitized from this form of lovemaking to the point where slower sex doesn't compare in sensation. The vagina has to recalibrate itself after a lifetime of mechanical lovemaking. Diana Richardson explains this phenomenon in her books - the vagina becomes rigid with so many years of expectation placed on it to perform, to be tight, to orgasm. It becomes dulled in sensitivity after years of being treated this way. The journey back to the truly sensitized vagina is not straightforward, if it has not been treated sensitively for so long (and by this i mean by the woman as well as the man). The vagina wasn't designed to perform, it was designed to receive. Receptivity can't happen in a tense state. I'm afraid we've been making love in an overly active, manly manner. It seems like an accomplishment, to be able to claim the activity and the orgasmic capacity of men as part of our birthright after such a weird and suppressive sexual history, but I think our current way of making love is further masking the receptive principle, where the woman can truly relish being who she really is. This of course is a really sensitive issue, and a very delicate thing to manage. Our identities are tied up in how we make love. I guess the solace is that we are trying.

Such a good explanation

Hotspring, you are so good at describing this~~thank you.

One thing I find difficult to explain is how *active* being receptive truly is! It takes a lot of concentration to "let go" and let the man in completely. It flies in the face of everything we've ever been told or taught. I've been practicing for quite a while now and even after all this time, it's still a challenge sometimes to totally relax my pelvic floor (and the rest of my body, including my brain). When I can give my all (as far as receptivity) and also go to my "third eye" stage, things become so pleasurable (for both of us~~we *both* feel it when it happens) it's almost other-worldly. Not almost...it is.

And for me, it's very, very thrilling to feel my man as the powerful force he is~~when a woman lets go, the man is able to feel his own presence magnified. And it just feels right and perfect. I think the feeling I get must be similar to what so many women are looking for when they read a romance novel~~to be desired so greatly and to feel such passion is something I think we all want, yet don't know how to get.

I feel so blessed to have learned about this and I think those of you who are younger are even more blessed to have this knowledge at such a young age!

Thanks emerson. P.S. I

Thanks emerson. P.S. I should add that I do think that toned muscles in the vagina are important. The problem is that most kegel exercises focus on the ability to strengthen and contract or tense the muscles, rather than the relaxation phase, or the bearing down and pushing out muscles (same used to give birth). These are reciprocal muscle groups. Exercising them both (with equal time pushing down and out, not just up and in) will create not just tone, but blood flow to the area. This will result in more natural sensation in sex for the woman, which will mean that she won't have to focus on producing certain sensations, and she can instead rely on her body to do that naturally so that she can put her attention on sensitivity and receptivity instead.

just a quick report

We are doing great. My wife is pursuing her orgasms and I'm not pursuing mine. But we seem to be more in sync and the connection I feel is very strong.

One thing I will say has seemed to make a difference, and that is progesterone. She's been using some topical and perhaps it's placebo or my imagination but she seems a tad hornier and lubricates a tad better. It's only been a few weeks of use but I think this is an important add-on to mention. 

She seems to be having orgasms very frequently now and more easily. And she seems to be happy having sex more often. I'm trying to pull back a little and have her chase me in bed, so she learns more about taking the initiative. I'm not really joking. It's all about changing the dynamic a little. She's out of practice at being aggressive because I've been filling that role, and now I've pulled back a bit and she's starting to enjoy being more in charge.

I'm glad to hear she's tried

I'm glad to hear she's tried it again, and that it appears to be working.  Progesterone made a huge difference for me, but I did have to try a few brands before I found one that really worked. 


I studied this

recently, and found xenoestrogens are contained in most brands. The one we ended up with is pure progesterone in oil. Nothing else. The parabens and other junk found in the creams actually causes problems by binding to estrogen sites. 

I can't swear this is the reason, but it sure seems that something is helping.

It is different for her

My wife and I are totally different on orgasms and hormonal cycles and it would be totally unreasonable for me to expect her to be some kind of mirror image. I like not having orgasms periodically. I follow a typical pattern when I have orgasms and when I don't. What's going on in my life can affect my drive, but I more or less follow a typical guy pattern.

My wife tends to get hornier certain times of the month, and it doesn't have much to do with whether she has had an orgasm. She can have many orgasms and stay arroused. But she doesn't have orgasms easily, mostly because of medication. She doesn't have orgasms fromintercourse alone. Usually, we use a vibrator after intercourse. I like watching her much better if I haven't had an orgasm yet.

We tend to do best when we are affectionate, her drive is good, she is having orgasms, and I am not.

the typical guy pattern

is to have orgasms/ejaculations all the time. So I don't think you are following that.

You seem very conscious of this stuff and that's unusual.

Has your wife always used the vibrator? I mean for a long time? Do you think this could have desensitized her to orgasms from "ordinary" sex? That's my impression about vibrators.

Typical if I don't have an orgasm.

Assuming I don't have an orgasm, it's the typical get very horny with a let down afterwards.

I think prolonged use of a vibrator can create some dependency but it depends on the person. In her case, she has used the vibrator more because of medication and hormonal issues released to children. Also, we have been together a long time. She never orgasmed from penetration before. She did orgasm from hands and mouth before medication. Then kids came along which added to it.

It's hard enough for her at this stage for her. Are kids are little older, but I don't want to put pressure on her the way she gets off.

of course

I wasn't being critical, or suggesting anything, I was just trying to learn. My theory is that vibrators are very desensitizing for women, but it's none of my business if a woman (or my wife, not just any woman) wants to use one. And I'm sure a lot of women use them and have no problems with them, but I suspect a lot of women do have issues having orgasms once they've grown acclimated to the vibrators. Like the guys' "death grip".

On the other point, If I don't have an orgasm, I don't get horny afterwards. I am "ready" all the time but not in an intense way, unless I've ejaculated in the last few days or week. But otherwise, which is normal for me as I seldom ejaculate, I feel just more like I'd call "ready" at all times. I am definitely ready but to me, feeling horny is kind of uncomfortable and I don't like that feeling. I do have a strong drive and I enjoy feeling that drive quite a lot. I feel it as a pleasant intensity in the background most all the time, and it keeps life exciting and vibrant. 


It can work one way

I think it is a fair question whether both partners trying gives it the best benefit, but I am at Day 14 now, and I believe that it is definately helping our relationship. I can feel subtle changes in my thinking. If you believe that it can benefit someone solo, then why wouldn't it help if at least one partner in a relationship was abstaining, as long as both partners were supportive of the one abstaining. I don't think it would work if my wife didn't at least understand and support what I was doing, but she is 100% behind me.

More talking

My wife was clear today that she likes me abstaining, doesn't want me to stop anytime soon, but does not think avoidance is what is for her right now. She has had enough frustration (medication, small children, etc) that I tend to agree with her. She doesn't even have the opportunity to try that often, let alone the right mood. It made me feel closer that she is on board and appreciates my efforts.


The difference between me and her is she seldom gets a chance to go for the Big O, where I am a little more compulsive than her. So it is not exactly mirror circumstances.


you are doing the right thing. It's what she wants right now. So nice for you to have that kind of relationship and to understand your wife's needs and wants. 

It took me a lot longer a time to figure that out in my relationship.

Different for women

Does the application of this to females at all depend on the different hormone patterns and ways of orgasming? It seems pretty straight forward for men. For my wife, intercourse has never been about her having an orgasm. She likes it but uses external stimulation after the fact for orgasm. She associates my orgasm during intercourse as a sign if a job well done by her.

Also, having orgasms does not seem to adversely affect her desire for affection. They seem related. If she is feeling good enough for sex, it is also likely that she will want a lot of affection. I hate to admit this, but I tend to be the type to roll over and sleep afterwards. It is what it is.

It also seems that different women have completely different reponses to birth control, pregnancy, nursing, menopause, periods, PMS , and others. Why would orgasm be any different?


The combination of progesterone and my behavioral changes plus whatever else has continued working its magic.

But it's fun. Lots of fun. Typically we connect for a good long time, and then she climbs on me and has her orgasm. She doesn't always go for it, but does most of the time, and gets her O, while in former days it was a rarer thing.

Her sexual energy is higher now. And that means it is sometimes a bit more of a challenge for me to avoid ejaculation and orgasm. She's playing out there on the 8, 9 level, getting to 10, and I'm staying in the 5-6-7 zone, lol. Sometimes it's difficult not to find myself at 8.5 or even 9 at times.