Still on the Wheel

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5 months on the path, 4 orgasms, still trying to figure out karezza, Moita, addiction and Deida.
Thank you all so much for your support.
I'm going down again, even without orgasm hangover.
Deida strong (wrong) I said "No" when she asked for help and got an elbow next time I got too close.
I get so desperate when she pulls away. That was Friday, I've apologized, we've talked, but by Sunday I was a mess. Thinking about leaving, wanting to charm someone (not her) into fixing me....Couldn't find an affirmation to save my life.
Succumbing to the inferior man, I didn't even want to ask the Sage. I know the answer and don't want to hear it.
So I asked my wife for help, to spend some time with me in bed. She didn't answer but came to my bed later. A sweet gesture, but passively laying next to me and reminding me that she still didn't feel close wasn't enough to fix me (hah!). It did make it hard for me to blame her (good move).
I suggested we try 5 minutes/day of holding each other (for only 2 weeks). "What if I don't want too? What if I'm tired? What if I don't feel close? What if I'm angry?"
"We'll do it as a practice, like exercise or yoga"
"Your erection will distract me."
Where was my script writer when I needed one?!!! That could of gone so many wonderful ways, but I was too far gone, feeling hurt and rejected. We didn't laugh.
One thing about being on the wheel, it keeps turning



No agreement to do any kind of exchanges for any amount of time.
9:20 PM
Me: I would like to do a 5 minute open heart loving meditation with you.
Her: What?
Me: Either you sit on my lap facing me (I've been thinking about this) or when we go to bed we spend 5 minutes holding each other (remembering how you get 2 year olds to do what you want...present choices but not the option of No).
Me: OK, 4 minutes (she's a great negotiator)
Her: I don't want you to keep me up.
Me: holding up 3 fingers and smiling, perfectly willing to walk away from the deal, "3 minutes, me sitting on the exercise ball, you straddling my lap facing me" as I sat on the ball.
She got up and joined me, "Do you have a timer?"

I liked the position because she had to hold on. I couldn't see her face so I was less able to mind fuck myself about her level of "presence". We held each other close. I couldn't resist giving some caresses and kisses, but mostly just holding. We didn't talk about it or analyze it. The timer went off, I thanked her and went to bed.

3 minutes of bliss. Depression...what's that?

She doesn't like the power this gives her and I don't like the dependency. Today I am afraid to ask again. I believe it's a chore for her and don't want to look needy or ask for too much. Or is it hangover that's pulling me inside myself?

Let's try an affirmation: We both enjoyed the experience and she wants more.

Whatever.... she's going to get some Shamu rewards (breakfast with fresh baked bread, my undivided attention as she speaks, and a more cheerful guy than the dude that's been moping around here). Maybe we'll talk about it. I will ask again tonight. I'm going to wait for a few days to ask for the commitment of 2 weeks.

It feels like a wheel. I keep returning to the same place. Reality is, it's a spiral.

Much love

What I don't get about all

What I don't get about all this is how you being direct about your needs verbally gives her so much power. How does your present dynamic compare to earlier times in your partnership, when you were not practicing Karezza but were getting some? How were you getting it then? Why was she interested then? Can you really chock it all up to menopause destroying her libido?

How did your porn use in the past affect her interst in you? Do you think that her present unavailability is a form of resentment leftover from your years of porn use?

And, have you tried nonviolent communication?

The sequence would be:
Make observation: "I've noticed you seem to have a lot of resistance to being physical with me."
State feeling: "I feel frustrated, sad, etc etc" (fill in the blank but realize that many things we think are feelings are actually judgements in disguise, ie, "I feel rejected" is more of an accusation.
State need: "I need to be touched and to touch."
Make specific request: "Would you be willing to cuddle for five minutes a day of non-goal oriented touching?" (this is not a demand, its a request. She may reject it. She might be less likely to if she is clear that it is a simple request, not a demand.

Good luck.

Non Violent Communication

Thanks for the bit on NVC... we have a teacher here in our area
[quote]How does your present dynamic compare to earlier times in your partnership, when you were not practicing Karezza but were getting some? How were you getting it then? Why was she interested then? Can you really chock it all up to menopause destroying her libido?[/quote]
I was getting more sex by being nice and letting her know for a day or so that I wanted sex and then getting in her bed and making out. After a while she would get turned on or give in for a mercy fuck. Whining, complaining, and anger also worked. So in a month (the last couple of years) we would have sex 3-4 times/month and1-2 of those times it was more like love than fucking.
She was interested because she wanted it or she wanted peace. Now she can't get peace by getting me off (she could, but that's no longer my goal).
So, for a long time I was providing 90% of the energy to have sex. I will count menopause for taking a big chunk out of her 10%.

She'll probably see it

as a chore for a some time...but her perceptions are cloudy. That's why you're doing this. You secretly know this is "perception-changing medicine," even if she doesn't. Just keep administering the medicine without expectations or you won't see if it works.

*big hug*

Thanks for your reports, Che.

I've been reading them with much interest.

I also don't get the part about "She doesn't like the power this gives her." To me "having power" means having some control over a person or situation. Don't most people like to have some control? And if (in this case) it's the power to give you some pleasure and make you happy, what's not to like about having that power?

Women don't like to feel

Women don't like to feel like their man is a pushover. On a biological level, it says, "He won't be able to protect the family." I think women do enjoy power when they feel they are well matched - ie, when they are met.

No Time

My head is full of things I want to share but I just don't have time for you guys...really it's not love or interest that is lacking, it's time. It takes so much time to get my thoughts into words...writing is a craft, a chore....while beholding the face of the most beautiful baby in the world leaves me timeless.

We had an agreement to have sex/karezza every weekend. 'Tho I've been in her bed, holding her and hard, we haven't spent more than a few minutes and she largely passive.

I am Gemini (happy birthday to me...)
I am working my program.

Porn. Done
Orgasm. Who cares?
Mood swings and depression. Decreased frequency and intensity.
Desire. God, I want her.

Me: "I am afraid we'll never have sex again"
She : "Sure we will"

Lower Self: I'll never get what I want
Higher Self: The last 3 minutes holding her was wonderful
LS: I hold her and she just lies there. I don't feel any response
HS: No response is required. The goal is giving love not being fed. Trust in the Lord and your hunger shall vanish (where the hell did that come from?)
LS: I'm bothering her. My dick is always hard when I hold her. She winces and pulls away (slightly, but I know)
HS: Love her. We are redefining erection as the desire for union...tell her.
LS: I get so high from touching her. There is no real connection, just me getting off. The proof is in how low and desperate I get when we don't touch and how stoned I get when we do.
HS: Shut up and stop mind fucking yourself.

She wants spontaneity and to be swept off her feet. She wants a strong independent man. She is a beautiful woman and we have been together 35 years. All that time I have plotted and schemed and wooed and begged to get into her arms. Our pattern has been for me to sex her up until she is swept away by her desire. Then I would get the holding and her interest that I truly craved. So we're kind of lost now 'cause I'm not carrying that ball any more.

Times up
Much love to you all


"HS: No response is required. The goal is giving love not being fed. Trust in the Lord and your hunger shall vanish (where the hell did that come from?)"

My own needy-ness drained away with the same ethic.

Your story sounds familiar. What comes through to my perception here is that while you feel needy, you feel her need[as well as your own] for sexual healing. It is obvious that she has been angry and confused about intimacy for years[whether it is connected to you or not] and your sustained healing energy of love is the only thing that will change that paradigm. What a beautiiful mutual pairing has occured here, for two to learn and teach.
Remember to do the sacrum to crown to navel recirculation.


I forget much more than I remember....some say it helps keep things clear and it certainly adds wonder to the ordinary.
So help me out here: energy up along the spine to the crown spilling over and down the front, our energies blending and back into the navel?
hmmmm might not be "right" or what you're referring to, but sounds like fun. I have neglected the energetic practice. Frequently when I tune into that stuff I'm not sure of connection to my partner...kind of like I'm off into my own hallucination. Stating my intent out loud helps, but I must confess I feel silly sometimes.
Working with energy is a nice way of unhooking from my mental masturbation.
Much Love

The one time when I felt the

The one time when I felt the microcosmic orbit kick in between me and my ex-boyfriend, him and I were floating in the hottub. We had been practicing Chia's microcosmic orbit meditation over the past few weeks, tho we had no intention of trying to get synched up at that moment - it just happened. It was like the two fields of our bodies linked together in a continuous stream of energy - gentle, energizing, nourishing, and pleasurable - and without any penetration or hot kissing or sexual intention whatsoever.

Each person can be seen as a field. Two fields can synch up in many different kinds of situations, which may not be sexual. I experienced this in an intro to Bioydynamic Craniosacral class, with an old guy who I was not even touching. Powerful indeed.

When it is experienced with a beloved, it is that much more special. There is a magnetic but flowing mutuality that generates itself and that both people can surrender to.

Good luck on your journey, Aphrodites!

Krazy Karezza and Holy Moita (EXPLICIT)

If I trip my wife with the vacuum cleaner hose, does catching her fall count as Moita kindness points?

I've been getting into her bed at night and holding, caressing my Isadora. She remains unresponsive. I've overcome the self doubt and recriminations of this time and focus on loving her. I know she wants me gone but to get me out of her bed she must roll into me for a face to face hug. Then the struggle begins, as soon as I get what I want, I leave. I'm always hard. I figure if she wants more, she can feel my desire and she'll act different.

Monday night she had a dream orgasm. Tells me about it on Wednesday and I wonder about some of Tuesday/Wednesday's bristliness.

Thursday night on the couch, reminding her of the desert we've been passing through, I suggest we tub and go to bed early (how's that for a pickup line?). She declines and I tell her, "Before Monday morning we're going to spend some quality time in bed," as I gently poke her in the arm with my finger (getting better?).
Friday night, we're in bed, as usual (hurrah! "as usual")
Izzy: "Why don't you just climb on and get it over with?" Now that is one hell of an offer. One not to be turned away from lightly and something we have done many, many times.
Izzy: annoyed at my stunned inaction "What do you want?"
Me: "I want 20 minutes, or 2 hours, of loving/healing touch. I want you to channel the love of God through your heart and hands as you touch me."
Izzy: "Don't tell what to do....are you going to do this or what?"
Still loving her, I left. I could not imagine fucking her in that way. But man I was conflicted, I tired to rationalize a way to do it but I really wanted something more from her.
4:30 AM I wake up as usual (bummer) but with an uncommon hard-on. I get up to pee (a nice way to deal with the HO) and I see her light is on. I open the door. She lies, smooth white skin on black sheets, brightly lit by the reading lamp. It's like looking at a masterwork painting in a museum (Reclining Nude, 1870). I'm thinking I like these revealing hot flashes. One lag is straight, the other bent to open her. I'm still hard and climb on. I hold her, nestling my cock at her slit. I kiss her neck, shoulders, and breasts. She remains impassive but moistens and opens to me. With slow constant pressure I enter her a millimeter at a time, letting her draw me in. She doesn't move, I'm calm, and in heaven.
Why don't you just do it?
I am
Well, I want to go to sleep
I left her, still loving her

Saturday I asked if she was alright after that unusual kind of sex (she was) but I avoided the philosophical discussion I wanted ("All you want to do is talk about sex" yes). We cleaned house, prepared food and had the New One over for dinner. We were six at the table and I had this wonderful new feeling of our family expanding.
Back to the usual in bed last night.

Feel like we're moving into new territory.
May we all find success in our explorations.

Thank you

for your reports, Che. They are inspirational.

You might want to think about what to say or do next time she says "Why don't you just climb on and get it over with?"

I think if I had been in that situation, I would have climbed on - and enjoyed some karezza, as much as she had patience for. Even if it was only a couple minutes, I would be incredibly loving and grateful and thank her during and after.

Actions speak louder than words, but if I wanted to respond verbally, I might say something like "I'm not interested in screwing and getting my rocks off. I don't ever want to do that again. I just want to hold you close and be with you. If you want to make love for a few minutes without orgasm, that would be wonderful!"

Che, I've followed your

Che, I've followed your story for a while now and you seem to be blessed with a particularly difficult problem. I don't claim to fully understand your situation by any means, but there is something I am starting to observe from your posts:

Could it be that you are coming across as too needy?

I understand that you are NOT intending to be needy, I understand that very much. But ask yourself what your wife sees you doing when you come onto her. Does she see a man trying to give her a gift, or does she see a man desperately trying to get off? Again, I don't completely understand your situation so I apologize if these suggestions come across as glib. But her responses sound to me like the reactions of a woman who rejects a needy man. Have you heard of, or would you consider, the materials of David DeAngelo? If you feel you are showing too much neediness, or if you would like to entertain the idea that maybe you are, then David will teach you how to turn that right around.

Here is the gist of it: Women are attracted to cocky/confident + funny. They are repulsed by neediness + approval-seeking behavior. So the way to build attraction is to change your attitude into one that says, "I don't need you to feel good about myself. I don't care. I can be happy without you but you'll sure be missing out on a lot of fun." Sounds counterintuitive, but trust me man, this stuff works.

Here is a quick example of how you might apply this in the bedroom:

Izzy: "Why don't you just climb on and get it over with?"
You: "Oh, you would like that, wouldn't you. Most women would; I am pretty good looking after all. But I don't know, you are coming on pretty strong; you shouldn't be so forward about it. It's not classy."
Izzy: *stunned*
You: *optional quick kiss* "Well, good night!"
Then you walk out, go to bed, and make yourself unavailable for the rest of the night. She will be so shocked, her attraction for you will rise. See what I mean?

Now, if your wife truly has a disorder of some kind, then none of this will work and you truly have a monster of a problem on your hands. Best of luck!



Yeah...that's the one I've got to dump
The truth is....I am. I want affection. It feels so fake to pretend that I don't, BUT I believe I'm on the right track and I'm going to keep rolling.

Thank you all for your interest

My plan is focus on giving and put my need aside. It'll be good practice. Work on my feelings of entitlement (all mammals deserve strokes) and I can always go back if I want.
Fake it 'til you make it

I also plan to not be so available. She prefers cats to drooling labs.

I DO think you're on the

I DO think you're on the right track, CHE, and its good to admit you are looking for affections too, something more than just sex. Your ability to walk away from your wife's suggestion that you just take from her what you want implies that. I think she's testing you. She probably knows that you really want affection deep down but wants to see if you'll settle for sex.

Kurisu, good points all, but I think there's another half to the equation here that has nothing to do with whether or not Che comes across as needy: that's his wife's self-esteem. Che's willingness to forego porn and orgasm for affection and love is probably a HUGE challenge to the status quo of the relationship, to her idea of who HE is, but even more so, who SHE has defined HERSELF to be in relation to him. If she were to take on his challenge, that would mean loving herself enough to accept her heart's desire. I don't know her well enough to know for sure that her deepest heart's desire is to be penetrated by love and tenderness, and to have her walls cracked open, but I bet deep down she does. However, she doesn't yet trust Che to do this with, and doesn't trust herself to do it. Being vulnerable like that is something that the ego doesn't allow easily. It will attempt to sabotage that if it can, and it usually succeeds.

From my little experience with a similar dynamic I have a few thoughts on this (keeping in mind, Che, that most of us here are quite young and inexperienced in the ways of love as compared to you at least as far as years are concerned).

I loved Goldenheart deeply but felt turned off by his tenderness. The turned-off showed up as a tough sort of rigidity, something that surprised me after years of casual sex and no rigidity whatsoever with complete strangers. I think that this blocked quality in me had to do with:

1). Past somatic trauma from abortion (association: he invaded my space and indipendence. keep him out at all costs)
2). Fear of accepting love, which was the inability to believe that I could be worthy of accepting so much love. Read: low self-esteem. If you were to look at my manizing behavior over the past few years (what's the female equivalent of womanizing?), one might think I was quite self-confident. But a test of confidence is to see if we can accept unconditional love from even just ONE human being.
3). Fear of actually recognizing and receiving all that I say I want in a man - which includes tenderness and sensitivity. God forbid one could actually manifest and enjoy what one says one wants! It is easy to dream, but harder to accept the dream for reality. Finding these qualities in GH that I essentially idealize as virtually impossible in my heretofore malnourished views of men, was a real challenge to me because it meant I had found THE ONE and was ready to commit - something that my biology and my free-spirited slutty side who likes a lot of variety in lovers fought with all their might.
4). I secretly enjoy a struggle more than I enjoy harmony. I'm better at it than I am at harmonizing. Somewhere deep inside I seem to feel that harmonizing is boring. Maybe this is just a lame excuse to avoid doing that which is challenging to my ego. So, I was creating struggle needlessly because my mind likes to jack off on problems.
5). In short, my head was dominating my heart. In short, I had not listened to my heart in so long that I did not know what it sounded like. The head stays safe. The head guards the heart. The head blocks the heart, unless they are in communication. (if we were to say that one form of intelligence - head or heart - is more superior, I would say the heart, even if only through an observation of developmental anatomy: the heart forms long before the brain, and so is older and wiser).

Luckily, much of that has changed thanks to Mamacita (ie, a good thorough talk with Gaia, or one could say a gentle spanking to the obstinant, haughty brat inside me). Deep down inside, I knew I was missing something in my avoidance, and that it was not just a simple matter of not having chemistry. I was skirting around an issue - that issue was: learning who I REALLY am, which is a woman with a big juicy heart who wants to share it, with the world and with my man - with my man who is strong enough to be tender and loving, and impressively patient yet still manly persistent in his patience.

See, there was some glaring and ridiculous posturing on my part, where I went through my life complaining at how men dominated and raped and took advantage of women, nature, etc. - but when I found one who embodied the qualities that I actually found to be healthy manifestations of manhood, I outright rejected and rejected and rejected it! My own stupidity dawned on me. I would not live in the world I so steadfastly claim is right until I verify and support healthy, loving manifestations of manhood. My inability to do so was a real attachment I had to seeing the wold as a bit uglier and inhospitable to women than it actually is (or should I say COULD BE). It will be more beautiful and more hospitable for us women here on our little planet earth to the extent that we are able to rejuvenate and nourish positive masculinity through our support of the qualities we always say we want so much: devotion, tenderness, care, sensitivity, mutual respect. These are strengths. They are not feminine or masculine, they are human and humanizing. They have a particular beauty when expressed through men. Praise be to the strong men!

I know its easy to idealize all these things now that GH is away. But we will be reunited in a few weeks here and so I will send out a dispatch to let you know how that goes. BTW, we are engaged!

Spot On Analysis

and great work on your part! Huge shift! Your mind and your heart are serving you well. Your uncompromised sharing enlightens and encourages us all.

Yes, I would! We don't have

Yes, I would! We don't have a date set yet. And we were already married about eight years ago when I tried to help him get his greencard. Right now, we're enjoying the state of "being engaged", literally as well as metaphorically. Maybe we'll stay that way! Just have a HUGE engagement bash, and no wedding! After all, most people probably enjoy feeling engaged more than married. Point is, we're going to make a concerted point of sticking together, natural distasters or sudden death notwithstanding (my uncle woke up next to his wife of three weeks dead in bed next to him).

Fingers crossed. But yes, I would be happy to invite some of you if we do have a wedding. Marnia for sure. I tried to meet up with Che this past weekend on my trip down to Berkely, but it didn't synchronize. If he does come to the wedding and bring his wife, I'd like to tell her a thing or two (that he's a catch, and its all about gratitude!)

Well, it will probably be in

Well, it will probably be in New Mexico, land of my heart. But you're still invited. You and Gary would really dig the community I grew up in. There are no krazy warped western Tantrist types there as at Harbin! I may ask you to keep it on the down low the fact that I've shared all manner of personal info about GH to the wide web, unbeknownst to him! Maybe by the time the wedding happens, my dad may have given in to trying some of the exchanges, and he won't think of you as the lady that made my momma make him try all manner of unnatural strangeness with withholding and such! Oh, and so long as you can stomach the fact that GH and I will probably produce at least one more little human creature for this earth to bear, you are welcome! From my recent conversations, I feel confident that Gaia can handle it.

*big smile*

New Mexico sounds even better. I've thought seriously of trying to visit your home community...on our way "back" from Aspen, CO in Oct. - whatever schedule you two may be on for the celebraton.

Don't worry, I won't let on about any private details...although I'm sure it would be fun to spar with your dad. I love feisty men. Wink

I'm glad you asked Spirit about reproducing. I think the planet would be in far better shape if we each did that before assuming our genes are needed for the future.

I didn't actually *ask*.

I didn't actually *ask*. The face of my future child just showed up a few inches away from mine and was flirting with me mercilessly! Maybe it was just an amplified projection. Or maybe the little creature was just super psyched to see us back together again. In any case, I haven't gone pounding down the babymaking door.


Happy Happy
Many blessings on your new path

A couple of weeks post depression, 4 days post 1 sided karezza and all is well.
Expectations are fading into gratitude. Holding her is still a mix of giving and getting but me waiting for more, has been definitely decreased. Worrying about where she's at, has been replaced with asking so I can know, not for reassurance. I'm showing up with tenderness and haven't begged in a while. My Isadora has offered to help me a couple of times...just out of the blue! And she hasn't winced and shied at my touch since Friday! There's some major shit shiftin' goin' on 'round har.

In response to me asking about a book signing tour:
[quote=Marnia]I only give talks when I'm invited and someone has a network to round up some listeners. My publisher doesn't put money into that kind of promotion (few actually do), so it's completely up to me.[/quote]
I was hit again with my peculiar way of looking at things. It even has a name: naivete.
Marnia, you have changed my world. So, I think the world has changed. So, of course, I think your publisher is throwing buckets of money at you and created this impossible 18 month world tour and that I could meet you in any major city to get my book signed.
Much love