Comming to terms with my partner after rebooting; bonding and karezza problems

Submitted by youngoldie on
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Hi there,

I'm not sure about the right forum, but it's connected to Karezza as well. If there is a better forum, just put my topic there.

First of all, I like to thank Marnia and Gary for their work and efforts, you are doing a great work, and you are something like pioneers. You helped me - and others of course - a lot.

Being around 50 and having used internet porn for some years, I got a sort of addiction and ED as well - often not getting hard, and no orgasm during PIV. When lying in hospital/sickbed and searching about ED, I found a link to YBOP and decided to reboot. After 30 days everything was working well, according to my age. I often had sex with my wife, and was able to orgasms in any position (a miracle compard to before). During the last weeks we had sex even every 2nd day or so, and with PIV orgasm - during rebooting we had karezza (out of ED reasons).

During rebooting I have given up PMO (no relapse), smoking, and drinking alcohol.I lost about 40 pounds of weight, so my wife started thinking to get tighter clothes for me. I didn't masturbate to orgasm and edged only two time to find out, if everytime is working down under. As I knew that it would work, I didn't continue further.

I was really balanced, didn't argue with others - as I have done before. I was able to smile when my wife strated nagging. I worked hard to do more household dutys and had more time for my children. I started as well to look for more cleanness and hygiene. I started to play the violin again - you see a lot has changed. I also used Bonding Behaviours, and had more time for my wife and we were very close.

Someone could think everything went nice and I was developing to be a good and honoured husband. And that even the theory about porn addiction; rebooting and bonding was working well.

But then I became aware that I was getting some kind of tiredness and fatigue, first just relaxed stillness, but then even neediness and cravings for being close to my wife, for tenderness, and sex. Reading about the hormone roller coaster, I started to think about orgasms and to avoid them by using karezza. I talked to my wife, but she said something about one can imagine and read and talk about things too often, and then they would come true - like self-fulfilling prophecy. Means - me looking for an excuse for being lazy and unmotivated.

As well lying in bed and trying to cuddle, my wife seemed not to react at all, or only if I asked her to comfort and to stroke me. I had her explained about the BB. I also told her about the advantages of karezza and scheduling sex. First she was against it, but later she agreed about a certain day of her choice. On that evening she delayed to come to bed (somehow a habit, leaving me waiting) and then feeling tired and having that "dead man" attitude.

This attitude extended as well to BB. She just being still and leaving me initating and doing everything. I felt like I was molesting her. So I tried to talk about that. She told me that she doesnt belive in orgasms having influence at human performanc (If, than only positive). And again, me using that issue as an excuse for me being lazy. And as well only reading and talking all that stuff and joining all those forums and so on. Not talking about anything else (which was not true, a I even asked how to engage more in household duties and how to work off unfinished matters and lots of other stuff). And she was really agitated and loud.

I tried to explain as much as possible, and she said, If i need to have a reaction from her, than I would get some. As I told her that i would not force her to something, but like to have her comittment to try out that ideas, she gave me no answer.

Okay, no oxytiocin left over on both sides. I have worked on my rebooting and to have a good relationship to my wife for weeks! And now I'm getting in the state that every time I'm comming close to my wife, I am fearing to touch her or to remark something, I'm now somehow frustrated. I told her, that I'm not changing my mind about BB and Karezza, but that I will not start anything in that direction, if she is not willing. If she is willing, It's her turn now and she shoud get in gear with it.

Sure, there is some "thick air" between us, but I can't continue like I've done until now. And still I'm asking me: I have done this much, and so much has changed in my and our life! Other wifes would have done heaven knows what else, if their husband would let one single item like smoking, PMOing, excess eating, or alcohol....? And I did all of that! Whats wrong with us? She seems as well sad about the situation, but still reacting angrily at any remark from me. Yes, and she is not that type of person to start things easily.

Any idea or remark? Thanks for reading!

FYI: I'm now on my 53th day of reboot, and was in hospital before that 6 weeks - with few chance to PMO, but I had some...

*sigh*

It's amazing how stubborn human beings can be sometimes.

It's definitely not possible to push a partner into something so unfamiliar. It's a shame that humanity is so ignorant about the effects of sex on the brain and perception.

Obviously, this is not the time to discuss it with her, but maybe at some point you could just ask if she would be willing to make an experiment of three weeks...and then return to regular sex. That might be enough for her to see the difference.

Is her English good enough to read articles? Does she read German? If so, I could make some suggestions of reading material...for when she's calmer.

Meanwhile, can you control your orgasm and just let her orgasm as much as she pleases during sex? Just stop her if she tries to take you over The Edge of climax. Setting an example seems to work best, even though it can be slow.

By the way, congratulations on all your impressive changes. Well done!

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]It's amazing how stubborn human beings can be sometimes.It's definitely not possible to push a partner into something so unfamiliar. It's a shame that humanity is so ignorant about the effects of sex on the brain and perception.Obviously, this is not the time to discuss it with her, but maybe at some point you could just ask if she would be willing to make an experiment of three weeks...and then return to regular sex. That might be enough for her to see the difference.Is her English good enough to read articles? Does she read German? If so, I could make some suggestions of reading material...for when she's calmer.Meanwhile, can you control your orgasm and just let her orgasm as much as she pleases during sex? Just stop her if she tries to take you over The Edge of climax. Setting an example seems to work best, even though it can be slow.By the way, congratulations on all your impressive changes. Well done![/quote]

Marnia, many thanks for your quick response!

Here're the answers to your questions:

No. 1: No sex at all at the moment, as I am not daring to make some attempts ... and she is in the "dead man" mode - or has been until now - but in principal she has agreed to try karezza some days ago, theoretically.

No. 2: Orgasm control is possible from my side - even she will get no one, if I control my movements. Everything depends on me!!!

No. 3: We're avoiding ourselves - being in a kind of ceasefire... even bonding behaviour exchange is not very successful - if any at all...

No. 4: She could read some English articles if she is WILLING to work on some expressions... And she has agreed to read German articles...

No. 5: My big question is, if I made a mistake by telling her it's now her term to do something, as I am fearing (or am tired/confused) to do anything. She's that type of seclusive person... sometimes exploding, if somebody insists on getting an explicit, detailed and commited information or statement. Exactly this attitude is a problem of our marriage for more tha 20 years... and as we are now missing the BB as well, there are no means to stroke the alligator...

you don't need any of this

I am sorry that this is so painful for you. I have been through something similar with my wife.

It is very hard to introduce Karezza as the man, I am convinced. Women who want to try Karezza have a much easier time of it. As Rachel here has said, men will try anything to do with sex, pretty much. Women go into what Darryl here calls "feminine lock down mode" and the pretty much shut down even if it's not voluntary. It's not something they want for themselves.

My recomendation is to stop trying to tell your wife anything about Karezza or bonding behaviors. Just stop. Don't mention it again.

And try to cuddle with her. Watch TV and just hold her hand. Go next to her. Snuggle. Do that as often as possible. Hold hands when you are out and about.

When in bed, try to spoon and just cuddle. Tell her that's all you want to do. Let things relax and the bonding really work. And as your rebooting continues, you will find this helps a lot to control your urge to masturbate or use porn.

Then, you can have sex with your wife and simply don't orgasm. Let her do what she wants. Help her along if she asks. But you don't orgasm.

That is the best thing as far as I know. It's the only thing because women often find men (like me) very controlling and that causes them to want to shut down on us. So we have to give them space to do what they want and discover what that is. Without any feeling that we're trying to tell them what to do.

It seems so right, what you are saying...

Thank you emmerson, it seems so right what you are saying.

Yes my wife is against that controlling thing. She hates even to know that hormones are steering her behaviour.

About rebooting: No urge to PMO. (I only watched one time nude pics, checked my body reaction - the arousing thing is the searching/clicking - a nude pic will have no effect to me after the first minute.) So no plan to do that again.

About M: I checked one time, if I get aroused after short time. Seeing that I was close to O, I stopped it, no plan to do that again. But sometime I allow my plumbing to get hard, enjoying my manhood in a relaxed way - not more/no further exitation. Just saying that, considering me as rebooted. Many doubt about that, but the signs are somehow clear.

Yes, about keeping my trap slut... I think that is important as well - wifey hates Mr Professor preaching...

Thank you, expert!

Great tip

"That is the best thing as far as I know. It's the only thing because women often find men (like me) very controlling and that causes them to want to shut down on us. So we have to give them space to do what they want and discover what that is. Without any feeling that we're trying to tell them what to do."

Good tip!
I've been having trouble getting my wife to go along with karezza for years...she only recently agreed to scheduling cuddle times, as its something we've not been doing. She's one of these people who always has a tv on or ipad/blackberry going. A good woman, but her attention is often diverted, though she is very present on the weekends.
But that part about the feminine lockdown thing is great. I am controlling, and I want to mould people to suit my perfectionist demands, It must feel like a lot of pressure a lot of the time. I have a big ego and sex drive and I think unconsciously I'm like "You better shape up because there's a lot of women to fertilize out there!"
I'll keep my expectations simple

You need this

She might not. You've said enough. Think about this. You believe you would benefit from bonding behaviors and karezza. You have been a PMO addict and much of what you read here relates to you, you got pulled in to a certain amount of life-hacking because you saw similar people with similar situations make themselves better by doing x and y.

Was your wife a PMO addict? probably not. So she doesn't feel the need for any life-hacking, hormonal explanations, or relationship analysis. She also doesn't need to hear that she's been doing it wrong all this time. Its fine to make it about you, because at the base of all this, its you that needs the changes - but really - do you need to ask your wife to cuddle so that you can engage in bonding behaviors? Or could you just... sidle up and cuddle? Enjoy your wife, she doesn't need to know why. She obviously doesn't care to know why.

Cuddling and hugging yes - sex no

After writing that stuff and going to bed, my wife was open for spooning (whitout us speaking a word). In the morning as well, and she gave me some hugs and even during the day. But sex - no. Even if she felt, that the plumbing was working.

I thought about your comments (Thanks to you all!) and my situation. The problem is sex - or expressing it better - to have no sex. As I had ED, my wife was clomplaining, made a lot of suggestions, even asked me to leave drinking. Now, being repaired and working fine, no interest. Of course, we had some few days with a lot of sex and O. But at the moment - nothing...Possibly I tried to talk my wife into sex, and she just hit the brake. Emergency stop. Possibly hormone saturation...

I wondered why during rebooting I thougt so much about masturbation and how single men should handle that. Maybe it was just the fear of getting no/not enough sex. As sex depended mostly on my advances throughout our marriage, I just see no big difference to before rebooting, and that was also one reason for masturbation - and then later PMO.

Sometimes it looks like being back to where I was before... and asking me at certain moments, why (healthy) masturbation shouldn't be so bad at all... but I didn't MO now for 53 days, and I had no urges. Hmm, just so silly conlusions like: Having a wife, having a working equipment - why not use it?

I find life much better without it

It is natural when you get things back to working order, to want to use them!

I stopped masturbation a year ago and have not gone back to it. At first, I was a bit clingy and needy with my wife. I was focusing so much on her because I was scared of not having enough sex. Without solo sex, I was depending entirely on her.

This is a normal phase some guys go through and I think you are going through it.

My advice is:

1. Don't masturbate

2. Continue bonding with your wife

3. Things will develop and unfold and you'll begin having sex again. You are putting out a desperate vibe to her. I know because that's what I was doing. And it takes awhile for you both to discover new sexual patterns, being "in sync" with each other. 

4. When you have sex, don't have an orgasm.

But it will happen and it will be FAR better than ever before. This way of living is so superior because you end up with the most amazing feelings for each other and this spills over to a much better life all the time, every waking minute.

Hours-long sex

Hi there!

My wife disclosed me another matter why not to have sex: She has her red days, and normally hers are pretty long.

So I thougt that following the natural circle, avoiding red and fertile days (inlcuding some security days before and after), plus having business, quarrel, hormone rushes etc, there is not much opportunity to have sex... but you have natural breaks to dampen post orgasmic effects...

For those who use the pill, there a dampening effect to libido of women is also reported. But if the climatic catastophe (or how it's called?) of women is finished, then there is green light to do it all the time, and many of the couples here are in that stage...

Regarding my relationship to my wife, I followed the advice to kepp my trap slut (no further lectures about hormone influence to sexual behaviour of human beings) and just to cuddle and comfort. Yes, my wife was open to that approach. After an eccess watching of movies, just sitting together, we went to bed after midnight, being not tired, and got even into the idea to massage each other (not with the plan doing this on special places...). Having performed that task, my wife told me she would be in the mood... (for having sex). Hmmm, and that thing with the red days? Oh,doesn't matter, not so much fuzz...

And so we did it, almost two hours long, multiple positions, and always just moving as much as to maintain the finger of love firm. Hmmm, nice feeling, nothing really heated up, but always knowing, that I/we could orgasm, if we would like that. Sex until I got really tired, even still connected. Peacefull sleeping (contrary to other days), waking up not to late (here as well improvements), feeling fine.

The best thing was my mood during the day. Having a lot of shopping and business with the family, I kept cool and had no problems with the critics and remarks of my wife, just giggling and laughing in a relaxed way, and being nice and kind to other people. And not having that feeling of anxiety and neediness, as before.

So big success for yesterday/today. This evening we will go to the cinema, watching The Hobbit. So I am curious, how this will work out in the future. What I am lerning still, is how much to say. My wife is somehow reserved and shy, so some communication, even during sex, must be started from me.

Okay, so further research an findings will come... Have a nice, balanced day!

wow you are a quick study!

So nice, congratulations, that sounds really wonderful.

Just continue with it. It all is good. The feelings never leave. They change a bit from moment to moment and day to day but overall get better and better. Try to avoid orgasms and masturbation. Your life will get sweeter and better in every way, all the time, and you will never go back to what it was. 

Sounds like you didn't need any advice from us!

Well done. Expect some bumps at first and don't get discouraged.

Know that bonding behaviors, even without intercourse, are also very powerful, so if intercourse isn't an option, do a bit of snuggling anyway. She's melting!

And isn't it amazing how sex can do so much to heal perception, especially when we use it carefully?

Karezza turning into "normal" sex?

Thank you all for your comments.

Things are going on somehow nicely. Nearly unbelievabele. Three times sex within two days...

First time with no Orgasm for both of us, but very satisfiying.

Second time she asked me to stroke her clit, we being in scissors position. I had this done before, but not always sucessfull, and if, then she havong a hard orgasm. Now I was fearing her orgasm and hormone related mood shifts. So I tried her to stroke like described from Nicole Daedone in Orgasmic Meditation, which we had tried one time before: Lightly as stroking an eyebrow, to the left upper quadrant of the clit. I did it some how long, and she was breathing more heavily, but no hard spasms. She thanked me after a while, and i stopped. I had no orgasm.

Third time in the spooning position, again she lead my hand to her clit and I stroked her likewise, but now she started heavy and quick thrusting, but still okay for me. I think she had a sort of orgasm, me not. We ended in the relaxed scissors position.

Update: Then another one next day

Fourth time was somehow tough... being in bed together for about 10 hours, sleeping and awakening, me trying to get closer to her, but she always layz and drowsy. At the moment, when I finally decided to get up and to do something else, she asked me to kiss her and then she would be ready to drop the undies...

Really, I was not in the mood at this moment, but I thought, it could be done, and again it would please her. But my finger of love was flaccid... I tried to apply some handwork, but then she did it. Unfortunately in a way wich didn't make the thing really stiff, but made me horny to aim for an orgasm. When I was ready, we did it in several positions, but I was somehow edging. I also felt, that she would need something, so I stroked her clit. Uncertainly, I stopped and we laid just there me getting flaccid and drowsy...

As you see, the tendency was towards getting harde orgasms for her, and for me getting closer to it. As well, everything depended nearly always on me...

Hmmm... not talking at all is not the ultimate solution. There is a communication gap. My brain is always working, and I would say/ask a lot of things. BTW, during day we are a very harmonious couple, much better than we had been before until lon time a go, doing a lot of cuddling and huggin and talking, but mostly started from me.

So the sex matter is somehow disturbig to me. I use just a lot of time, lingering in bed, waiting if she would be ready. On the other hand, if I would stay in my office, as I did before, we would lose the some connection and the opportunity to have sex.

BTW, Marnia, which German articles do you recommed to my wife?

four thoughts

One is to schedule sex. Every other day works well for us, although we also have sex Saturday and Sunday. But scheduling is very soothing and helpful.

Second is to do a lot of just cuddling in between, on the "just snuggle" days.

Third point is trust the penis. If your penis doesn't want to get hard, so be it. It's not necessary. It's not a good idea to try to get hard if you aren't hard already, in my experience. Have you tried soft entry? I'm generally hard by the time I do soft entry and it's nice to do it. 

Fourth, is to focus on your root, relaxing your pelvic floor. Focus on that during sex, so you don't get too energetic and end up wanting to orgasm, or building up tension in your prostate (blue balls) that is uncomfortable.

It's still good progress.

We find it really helps not to have sex every day. Otherwise it can turn into a ...duty. It's not as special. However, a few minutes (at least) of affection daily are very helpful.

Remember, you do not have to give her an orgasm unless she asks. She won't die of horniness. Smile A few minutes later it will pass.

Our book has been translated into German. You can read the first chapter here: http://www.arbor-verlag.de/files/9783867810050.pdf She may like it...or not. The first few chapters are written from a woman's perspective...and then Gary joins the adventure with lots of science.

Notice how your wife was sluggish the day after orgasm? It's a big neurochemical event. Here's an article that explains a bit more, but it hasn't been translated. Women: Does Orgasm Give You a Hangover?

Hi Emmerson,

Hi Emmerson,

points 1,2 and 4 I have handled as you said. Nr 3, the penis matter is like this: It doesn't get hard very often by itself, but guaranted by softly stroking it within 2 minutes - really hard. So I'm self-confident and seeing it as normal for 52 years, I need no fantasy, or pics/videos or lingerie or hot shapes - even if they coud triggger it.

But the idea of doing a soft entry seems nice. Just need to explain it to my wife...

I feel nothing, she said.

Hi Marnia,

Thank you for your response. I read the chapter and I ordered the book.

Last night we had no sex, but a lot of talking. In the beginning I held a lecture about another view to sex - not going for the exiting things - just like stroking and caressing someone from inside. My wife had agreed to listen to that and we cuddled during talking.

Her answer gave me new insights: She told me, that sex without aimimg for arousal doesn't make sense to her, because without that she feels nothing. Oops.

And then: Stroking, massaging and caressing is more arousing to her than sex without O! Again oops.

Okay, we talked a lot. And finally she unclothed, layed naked on me an caressed my body with hers. I went stiff and flaccid and medium hard, and I stroked her as well allover, using my finger tips very softly. She was exited and very wet. It was long after midnight and I gave her a very soft, slow clit massage with one finger tip. After that she asked me, if she could do me a favour, but I felt asleep. Waking up in the morning, I remembered that: Yes, that was a missed chance - she would have done nearly everything. But I don't regret it. It was fine.

It's not that I'm opposing your advice. But I'm thinking about that stuff which happens before orgasm. There is a hard type of orgasm, yes. But before, there are other things. Warm sensations, tickling, or more tickling. My wife told me sometimes from sensations, that makes her warm feets, or others like to fall into something warm. If my wife feels not much from normal intercourse, what sensation would be appropriate? You see, I'm not talking from what to do, but from the outcome - from sensations which can be felt from somebody.

Some other couples are talking from karezza in a way which I would consider as edging - comming very clos to orgasm, and others talk about a kind of slow sub-orgasm. And then there is the OM Method, just stroking very gentle... such a lot of different approaches.

The affectionate touch

is always appropriate...and very powerful, as you see.

My thought is that she doesn't know for sure how she would feel about karezza yet because she is awakening (very nicely) after a slumber. Smile As women relax and get the touch they respond to best, they become more sensitive and responsive, and the need for hard sex and conventional orgasm tends to drop.

Just keep an open mind and you'll find the balance that works best for the two of you. There's no one "right" answer.

You two are doing great.

Some half karezza sex...

Hi there,

In another forum I red an antique description how Karezza should be done. Sounded cheesy or pathetic. Last night my wife seemed open to some sex, comming half-clad into bed... But then I just used the words and gestures as described... and it worked ... espcially for me. We had sex, the softest sex we evar had, and my wife more active than ever. She asked me for stroking her clit, and I did it very, very light and slow, fearing the hard orgasm. She enjoyed it and started with heavy thrusting - never done that before. I just kept still, avoiding to "lose" her. I was not too hard for me and quit comfortable. She got no real orgasm, but had some exiting feelings, as she told. This was about 6 days after our last sex (with possibly an orgasm on her side). So no 14 days hormone break - but a little "alligatoring" from her, playing the bitch, but quickly excusing, after she was aware of it.

This mornig I woke up, having morning wood, feeling very well, touching my love finger here and then and enjoying it quiet without movement and being happy. Then I turned to my wife, leaning my penis to her groin area, feeling her warmth and let it there to relax - just great! Never felt so good the day after sex - not needy at all.

Something more: My wife has a file with charts of each of her fertile circles. And there it's written: Every red day, every fertile day, Every time I had sex (in my life, because she is my only one - and I am her only one). And every single orgasm I had with her... unbelievable. I knew theoretically of it, because we talked about it and we agreed on it as our kind of birth control . But being aware what it means? Has anyone else recorded every sex in his life in a file? Huh...

For at least 6 years, I've

For at least 6 years, I've recorded every menstrual cycle, and every time my partner and I had sex.   The last 2.75 years, I've recorded daily snuggling, the perceived emotional quality of snuggling/sex, and who orgasmed. I've recorded lots of other events, too.Deaths, "events ", bad moods, especially good moods, fights, general meals/foods/dinners out, illnesses, stomach upsets.  I've done this the last three years in a dated pocket planner, and before in a dateless moleskine.  When I was a teenager, I kept a daily diary, written entirely in code. Just a simple letter substitution code, but I was flutent enough to write it in cursive handwriting.  I did this to keep my mom from being able to read it. :)

But I don't plan my life ahead of time - I don't use a day planner the way most people do.  I'm a spontaneous person - I really dislike scheduling things in advance - I have to be convinced to buy tickets to a concert to see my favorite performers, even though every single time I've gone it has been a blast.  Having scheduled dates for anything makes me uneasy, but recording events in my life as a history makes me happy.  

Quizure

extraordinary

I don't know anyone else who has recorded every time they had sex and all this information. This is great! Why did she keep such detailed records?

Most importantly, you are really doing great. 

I don't know what you meant about "alligatoring". Can you explain?

 

I can't remember I reading from you

I thought it was my own invention (even if I'm no natural english speaker, but it's the way how they make such "...ing"-words, isn't it?), based on your story with the alligator on the fare... But you see, some expressions come just naturally.

When we see some things cooking up, we just say: Its's time to stroke the alligator and hug...

BTW. There are no (or not yet) clear connections to orgasm and bitchy behaviour in our relationship. We had not so much sex during our last years, because of PMO and ED... but there was still argueing and crying and such thngs...

Needs some further observation...

BTW No. 2: Even if I had no orgasm now for 12 days, there are still signs of neediness ... not directly to have sex again the next day, but at least to have skin contact and intense cuddling... Could it be a natural need? But I don't remember to have that in my younger days... Maybe I covered it with masturbation...

Any kind of relationship tension

can cause a "gator" to appear, so uneasy abstinence would also be problematic. Avoiding sex doesn't solve problems, but I think you will find that regular touch/intercourse definitely helps everyone stay in balance.

It's not unusual to feel more hungry for touch, especially at first. But even as an ongoing matter, you will probably like touch more than in the past. Is this so bad? It has been shown to relieve stress among other benefits.

Here's my alligator piece: http://www.reuniting.info/hungry_octopus_syndrome

It's part of the sympto-thermal method

It's part of the sympto-thermal method of birth control according to Dr Roetzer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12309198?dopt=Abstract

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/symptotherm...

We have agreeed on this and there are ready charts to fill all the temperature and symptoms according to fertility. Means you know when the wife is fertile - and you just don't have sex on this days.
Means also you have two breaks during one cycle: During menstruation and during fertility. Seemed to keep our marriage somehow quiet during those 22 years, having enough time to recover from hormone shocks... But there still were times of arguing and snapping...