Convincing someone who is already emotionally apart (kind of)

Submitted by strawberry field on
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Hi all,

I´m a 28 old female from germany (sorry for my english) and doing some „experiments“ with karezza and all these energy-things. I am not addicted to porn but have kind of a bad relationship (in some times) and want to try out karezza with my boyfriend. I noticed that before we orgasm he and I are always so sweet to each other and after orgasm I hate him often because he just doesn´t seem to care a bit for me. It´s hard in comparison to the time before orgasm and it makes me doubt the whole relationship. In general I got a lot of doubts and could imagine that those are caused by an imbalance of my hormones. I suffer from mood swings that I think are responsible for many relationship problems.

My boyfriend and I tried a few times a kind of tantra: we had some candles, fruits and tea and a lot of time to cuddle and caress…it was so amazing, I felt like on drugs (which from a karezzian point of view might not have been so good as it felt because that was just only the rush of dopamine) and when I looked into the mirror (which stood near by) I saw such a beauty I´ve never seen in a mirror before. :) Of course it ended in sex.

Though we experienced some deep bonding, this whole thing was born out of the idea of being aroused for a long time, I think. Or maybe that was just my point of view while he cared more for the bonding (he seems to be the one who is more in cuddling while I am more into sex). I like the feeling of being aroused and am kind of addicted to it – I tried some times where I didn´t allow myself to come cause I wanted to stay aroused. I think I am a bit too much focused on sex and I even sometimes force sex cause I want him and me closer...which ironically let us drive more apart.

In those times where I didn´t come for a few days I edged often to stay aroused…and experienced all those things which are mentioned here to increase: my interests in social interaction increased and I felt VERY close to people and things without them overwhelming me – normally I stay in distance and can hardly feel anything or anyone near to me though acting like a “normal” social being. Also it was suddenly normal for me to touch people a lot which I normally experience as…strange.

Beside the social improvements it was easier for me to focus (except the times I was really horny) and to express myself in a straight and self-confident way. And I had more drive getting things done.

As I “suffer” from ADD (without hyperactivity) I have an imbalance of dopamine in my brain – this is why I can easily become addicted to anything…I am addicted to cigarettes (though I can stop smoking when visiting my boyfriend for a few days), to excitement, to some people, to arousement and even to my boyfriend I think.

So I think the best might be if I try to bring my brain to a level of a relative balance by not masturbating the next two weeks. When I meet my boyfriend in two weeks I wanna try karezza.

I discovered these sides and POIS a few days ago, so I decided to have a look on the results of my orgasm…and well: on friday I had an orgasm and on saturday I felt depressed, didn´t want to do anything and doubted my relationship a lot. It is nearly the same today. Meditation helped a bit.

Only problem is, that my boyfriend lives 200 kilometers away and it´s difficult to do all those bonding things only by chatting. But it´s not as worthless as I thought because I am being more kind and lovely to him – I have no other option to “cuddle” him.

Another problem is, that he is kind of stubborn and has become less openminded through the process of splitting us apart, which I always wanted to stop but didn´t know how (well I tried some drama, but that didn´t help really Wink ). So I don´t know if he is motivated enough – I think his motivation to do or to “sacrifice” anything for the relationship is nearly zero….although he likes cuddling more than sex…but also he said that not having an orgasm doesn´t make the following sex better (for me it does). Well I thought being nice could help make him more openminded as a start. Wink Maybe there is a way in convincing him without many words so that he doesn´t have the feeling of being forced? I tried to force him too often and that makes convincing him even without forcing hard to do.

greetings
strawberry field

P.S.: I don´t know if I should have used an own blog...but I can do it if it is more common.

Welcome

It's tough when you're separated from each other and only see each other on weekends, so be patient and try not to expect  dramatic results.

Can you just ask him not to push you over the edge into orgasm when you're together? That way, you may be able to see if the change helps level your mood...without tryng to force karezza on him for the moment. Karezza is something both partners have to want to do.

Maybe in a month or so, if you see improvements, you could ask him to put off orgasm until the last day of your visit, or something like that.

I applaud you for your willingness to experiment and hope you see some good results from your efforts.

Have you visited this new forum? Karezza - Liebe

How did you find out about karezza? Did you know our book has been translated into German? http://www.arbor-verlag.de/files/9783867810050.pdf

Thank you, Marnia, for your

Thank you, Marnia, for your advises. I will ask him to not push me over the edge, but it´s not just about me and my moods, saving our relationship is as well important. So I feel like being forced to convince him about karezza, otherwise I don´t see a chance of staying together...honestly I thought of quitting this relationship if I can not convince him to try karezza. But as you say, I cannot expect dramatic results, maybe I have to be more patient.

Do you think it is really neccessary to wait a month until we both try it? I thought I could send him some information about karezza to bring the idea into his mind (what he does with the idea is his choice). On the one hand I think he really could like the idea because he always wants to cuddle more and have less sex...on the other hand he is not really convinced of monogamy and may think that I just want to convince him of something that he thinks is "unnatural" (well, this point of view is becoming more and more common in the younger generations, while I always had the feeling that this is just a superficial point of view which doesn´t include many important things in life).

I found out about karezza through searching for "no orgasm" or something like that - ironically this was meant to give me more pleasure by staying aroused...ehem.

Well, I was surprised by the beginning of your book (the german introduction), because there it is said, that many women have the intuition that the emotional distance in a relationship is caused by sex (that thought is in many cases ignored cause nearly nobody would think in a way like this)...so did I. I also wonderered so many times what the hell the fault in relationships is and I was often frustrated...well, I guess I have found the answer now. Thank you...it all makes perfect sense. It is really so deep hurting to find yourself trapped in a neverending search for the "one" that you can stay together with during lifetime and feel save and not bored with...I was near giving up and take it as a fact, that this will never ever happen (also because everybody around seems to have fun playing this game that will never end in satisfaction and calmness). It´s so frustrating. Well, there is new hope now.

I wonder if it is possible to convince somebody who likes the idea of polygamie and let´s no chance pass to bond with other girls - though "only" in an emotional way, this is really hurting me, more than some one-night-stands would, I think. Maybe I was just to much focused on sex as a tool for bonding two people...
Honestly I often thought how lucky the other girls are to keep him emotionally envolved while I "only" had sex with him...in fact, I felt disadvantaged by being his girlfriend!

Sorry for my long writing, there is so much to say I had to keep in private for a long time...

What do you mean

"wait a month?"

Since trying to force him will almost certainly create resistance, I would just try to make love slowly and sensually (building on your tantra experience), and tell him you don't want to go over the edge.

I wouldn't spend time arguing about polyamory. Either the desire for an exclusive bond arises from within (with the help of karezza), or it doesn't. It can't be imposed from outside without making him feel like he's making an undue sacrifice.

Also, don't be jealous of the other women. His reaction is biological, not based on you or them. If you were the "other woman" here, you would find the sparks flying with him too.

Try to stay centered and get as close to the principles of karezza as you can...without forcing him.

Most of all, be patient. Working long distance is  not ideal, and I'm not sure what can be accomplished. But stay optimistic and see what happens. Let us know how you get on.

*big hug*

I meant...

[quote=Marnia]Maybe in a month or so, if you see improvements, you could ask him to put off orgasm until the last day of your visit, or something like that.[/quote]

I meant this by "waiting a month"...that he will be involved into karezza by not coming as well. Yes, I know, karezza isn´t only about "not coming"...

I think, the hardest part will be to just "let it go". Not controlling or convincing is my first duty in the next weeks. Just welcome the changes it does to me and let them (hopefully) slowly change the relationship as well.
I will let you know how I get on and read more about karezza to fully get the idea...

*hug*

Oh, of course

Sorry. You will know the right time to raise the issue, but it would probably be better to start by changing your own behavior and leading by example. That seems to work best. Trust your own intuition about the timing.

After a week it´s maybe too

After a week it´s maybe too early to talk about results, but some experiences may be interesting: well, I feel calmer and don´t worry as much as I used to. Yet I cannot sleep very well but maybe that´s a result of the university-stress I am in.
I have to admit that in the last few month I didn´t like many people and found most of them annyoing...now I think I opened my heart to them and don´t make much difference between them anymore as I like being with people generally. I smile and talk a lot and they respond very much - I was surprised how nice they all were...

I was giving some concerts with my choir and it was amazing...singing causes oxytocin as well! =)
Singing in a choir is bonding behaviour with many people...you feel close to all of them.

I haven´t seen my boyfriend for nearly 3 weeks now and I really miss him and some bonding behaviour...this is why I savor being with people so much. I am proud to say, I didn´t make him a scene within these 3 weeks - I used to be a drama queen every few days to weeks...but when I read about the Coolidge - effect, I decided to not let that go...and it´s easier than I thought it was. Instead of worrying I hang around with people and when I come home to chat with him I am so calm that I don´t even think about "what could be wrong with us"....

I feel excited to see him again and try karezza or something similar but I am also worried that my intentions won´t be strong enough and we simply go back to old behaviours. Also I am sort of afraid of the thought to never have an orgasm again (which is not true because I simply can decide when to have one)...well, we will see....I am really willing to try this experiment. It´s a new way of living, i guess and my experiences with the people seem to prove this...

I love singing too

Here are pictures of my choir.

(I'm in that blue thing.)

I'm glad you're feeling calmer and more loving. That's a good space to be in.

Yes, it's tough to try something new when you don't get to see each other often. Just do your best not to heat things up, and let things flow. Every experience teaches something.

If you two try karezza, it sounds like you shouldn't try to sell it as "monogamy medicine." Just talk about its other benefits...improving your outlook on life, feeling more loving, taking the pressure off in the bedroom, whatever.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Sleep suggestions here.

Well, I failed. I guess I

Well, I failed. I guess I found a way to have orgasms guaranteed – by not wanting them^^. I told him I wanted some cuddle-sex and it worked in a way (I felt very close to him), but I didn´t need much to come. The slower he went, the more I loved it…we had 4-5 times sex and every time very slow, but I guess it wasn´t slow enough, because I had orgasms every single time and it was really no problem to get them – in the past, when I focused on getting them it was sometimes difficult, but now it was the easiest thing on earth. Maybe that is a good result, because I didn´t force anything - but I am disappointed. I didn´t want to come for a reason and didn´t make it. But it´s hard not to come cause I find him so very sexy…

I noticed that we have and always had many bonding behaviors and the sex seems only to decrease them a bit, but I noticed as well that it has much influence on my mood. On the third day of our meeting I woke up and thought of all the things I hate him for and when I met him a few hours later I made a scene for things that weren´t his fault and for things he did to me in the past. Everything was ok until then, we had wonderful sex, deep moments, good meals, interesting conversation and laughed a lot…and then…boom. At the same time I realized (or guessed) that it was out of nothing because of this hormone-thing and tried to excuse my behaviors by explaining him the effects of orgasm but I think that made it only worse and it sounded silly, too. Now he connects those informations with my hysterical behavior and it is even harder for me to let him get the idea.

I am a bit desperate, because it seems sooo hard to heal our relationship….every time we meet I make a scene, no matter if he did anything or not. I don´t want it but I cannot do much to avoid it. My plan was not to come in order to avoid such scenes but now I wonder if I can ever make it…it was so very little he needed to make me come. And I feel now so much more unconscious, insecure and pessimistic then before our meeting…I was so powerful and optimistic before and really loved my life and the people and now I have to start again.

Maybe next time I have to be stricter and have to really slow it down. Until then I try to become more aware of my energy and the directions it goes…

Quote:

[quote]if you want to find out if skipping orgasm will help level your mood, there's only one way to do it.[/quote]

Yeah, that´s true. Wink

In a way I think nature is a bit mean letting me and others experience something wonderful and then create those weird mood swings...;-)
But I also think that I am on the right way...the last time we had sex there was a glimpse of what karezza might be and he was in this mood as well - he even was leading it into this direction, not me. So I am optimistic we will find a way together.

Thank you for the article, it was very helpful for me to understand that I am propably one of those who is more influenced by the effects of orgasm than others...and I think he will understand me more, when he reads about the experiences of other women.

Generally I thank you for your response, it´s very helpful and gives me trust in going my way and not giving up... Smile

I feel dependent on him and nervous

I feel dependent on him and am nervous, when he doesn´t answer my messages...I generally feel nervous and unstable and like having withdrawal...something is missing (a "drug", dopamine, him...?). I feel needy, focused on him, want to get "something" from him (don´t know, what it is exactly). Is it possible that this is one of the post-orgasm-effects? Otherwise this must be something "deeper", like a problem from childhood. But maybe I can blame the hormones. Wink

It doesn't have to come from

only one cause, of course, but yes, "needy" feelings can come from a subconscious sense of lack. And post-O low dopamine can make any  sense of lack much stronger...and make us do things we normally wouldn't in a desperate attempt to get our "needs" met.

Problem is....nothing external will truly fill a need that is coming from a neurochemical low. That requires time. This is where the karezza concept comes in. It promotes equilibrium, so you don't feel as needy during the two weeks after your time together.

Here's an article that explains:

Orgasm’s Hidden Cycle

ADD and post-orgasm effects

I guess I am more influenced by the lack of dopamine than others because of my ADD. (For example: I think my general anxiety caused by ADD gets worse with the post-orgasm-effects.) It´s very interesting to connect the informations I have about ADD and post-orgasm-effects - it fits together very well. Science is amazing! Wink

It´s surprising how simple the interaction between hormones and mood/behavior is - of course making changes is much more complicated.

[quote]Problem is....nothing external will truly fill a need that is coming from a neurochemical low.[/quote]

This was always my problem, because I thought of external causes (well, in a way it is caused by external things) when I was unsatisfied and agitated. So I always searched for something or someone I could blame - often I saw my partner as the problem I had to solve...as it is described in the linked article. This is a battle you can´t win because you don´t seek the origin of your problems and - even worse - create new problems instead of solving them.

Another problem in relationships is: everybody thinks you have to talk and talk about your problems to improve your relationship. But this also can make it worse because your focus is always on the "problems", so you never can enjoy the relationship. I guess, more cuddling, less talking would improve it in an easy way (of course "talking" doesn´t include daily connecting communication).

I wouldn´t neglect the possibility of psychological causes for my neediness but I am sure about the hormone-induced site of these mood-changes and this is something I can handle much better - I just have to handle it like a disease: you have to wait until it gets better and have to be very kind to yourself to help activate the healing. I don´t have to search for the optimal solution any longer.

Well...just my 2 cents. Wink

P.S.: I wonder why nobody else replies...is it the mistake I made right in the beginning - at the headline (I guess it´s "emotional apart")? I know that mistakes in the headline can alienate people...

strawberry field wrote:

[quote=strawberry field]everybody thinks you have to talk and talk about your problems to improve your relationship. But this also can make it worse because your focus is always on the "problems", so you never can enjoy the relationship. I guess, more cuddling, less talking would improve it in an easy way (of course "talking" doesn´t include daily connecting communication).[/quote]

1000% agreed. Talking does little except focus on problems. Sometimes you need to talk, of course, but cuddling and lots of intercourse when you're ready is much better. Neurochemicals change perceptions drastically and talk does little except make one feel worse.

Don't fret about having orgasms so easily when you really relax. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes that is the path that will lead to being relaxed and having incredible sensation without the orgasms and resulting fallout. That can be your path. Who knows.

Just recognizing these effects has helped you immensely, sounds like. Glad you are here.

 

 

Thanks for sharing your

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...

[quote]Don't fret about having orgasms so easily when you really relax. Nothing wrong with that. Sometimes that is the path that will lead to being relaxed and having incredible sensation without the orgasms and resulting fallout. That can be your path. Who knows.[/quote]

I had similar feelings but as the focus in karezza and rebooting is on "don´t have an orgasm!" I thought there was something wrong with that. I didn´t trust in my intuition - but by recognizing this I am more aware of my intuition, which is good.
Of course I will try not to orgasm the next time I met him but I was okay with having them the last time...it was just my ambition which made me feel disappointed.
Well, not much more to say than...I´ll try again. Wink

I don´t like the mood I am in after orgasms...though I couldn´t tell the difference to the "better" mood until I stopped having orgasms and began to focus on social items and bonding. The good thing of it all, even with having orgasms, is that I can now tell the difference and that makes my way much more visible.

I am glad to be here too. :)

Some more thoughts about "talking"

Me and my partner have experienced feeling very close through something like "sweet talking"...this is what made me fall in love with him for the first time and though it´s not as present as it used to be it still feels good when we do this. I think that "sweet talking" is a bonding issue as well - like a mother talks to her child in a sweet way and that connects them (by lots of oxytocin, I think).

I would give some examples but this is hard to describe and more to live...and a bit embarrassing as well :D

Stupid game

Since I am in a relationship I wondered if daily talking and chatting would impair the relationship - I thought maybe we would be bored from each other after a while or be stuck on a relationship-level and don´t develop...or I don´t know. Everybody told me you needed breaks from the relationship from time to time to find back to your own way or whatever. Now I read about daily connection and bonding behaviors and am a bit confused as it doesn´t match easily with what I´ve learned before.

Can somebody match this for me please? Wink

I have the feeling to get on his nerves with all my trials of bonding behaviors. Maybe I am an "octopus" beeing grabby. Maybe I try too much to be nice and make him feel close to me. Love is about giving, right? I still try to GET something by giving him something. But I don´t know any other way or how to start without wanting something...how can you even be motivated to do ANYthing without wanting something? I want his attention and love but he is absent - internal and external. When I don´t chase him any longer he suddenly starts to overwhelm me with ideas, proposals, plans and well...words. It´s the old game: I don´t want you if you want me. I hate it. I don´t wanna back off to increase his interests - it´s a stupid child´s game.

Sorry for my hangover moaning...;)

P.S.: Well, I think I will start a blog, but yet I don´t know how to name it and so on...

The "lovers must have space" advice

is sound for lovers engaging in orgasmic sex. It gives their brains time to return to balance. However, it erodes trust and intimacy, and in my experience, friction still erupts.

That's why I choose the daily bonding behaviors, plus frequent intercourse without orgasm. In my experience, the friction is so rare that you can be together without getting bored...or desperately needing "space."

Take your pick!

During a hangover, I think it's wise to keep contact, but keep it brief and not clingy.

I sent my comment before I

I sent my comment before I read yours but they fit together anyway...seems I learn all the lessons everybody must go through trying to heal their relationships. That´s why the comments fit...well...I am tired and don´t know if this post was necessary. Wink

Octopus and alligator

I guess I am the octopus and he is the alligator...

http://www.reuniting.info/hungry_octopus_syndrome

I have to be very creative to calm his amygdala down...I cannot kiss him gently on the back of the neck or hug him from behind (what I´d like to do). Honestly I just don´t know what to say, I have the feeling that not saying anything would be the best...that hurts. He is so cold...I would like to change our positions - let me be the one being cold and him the one begging for love....yeah, that´s mean, I know (just dreaming Wink ).

I am frightened by realizing that I don´t know really what he needs now to calm his amygdala down...what gentle touch he would like to have to feel save. I can do this in a physical way but seem to have forgotten what "sweet talk" means...I´ll simply tell him good night now. Tomorrow will be another day.

Waiting is not easy for me

but I am sure I will learn it.

I didn´t read your book yet (though I read the introduction)...I have the feeling it´s not the right book for me at this stage of my developing - I think that more information is too much for now...or this kind of information (facts). So I ordered a book from Diana Richardson to discover my intuitive feminine side..."Tantric orgasm for women" - no, it´s not that I have given up the idea of non-orgasmic sex, I just had the feeling that this book can help discover my female side and get in touch with my body...

By the way, my boyfriend told me about different "addiction"-symptoms (no drugs but drama or "something special" and that it´s never enough) and that was my chance to give him some information about our brains, dopamine and addiction :)
Now I am looking for an article short but impressive to explain more...he wants to know more :)
But I think, the whole book is too much for now (and he is no "book-reader")...I am missing a short article which includes all themes - I guess I am just too blind or forgetful and have read too many articles in the last weeks to not find the right one...Also I try to avoid the monogamy-theme to not chase him off (we had too many discussions about this) but many articles are including it...

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]but it's not really about orgasm. Smile [/quote]

That´s why I bought it^^

Yesterday I sent him some articles in English and he started to chat with me in English...funny.
He has not given a comment yet and I don´t know how much he has read already but I have no problem with waiting...I realized, that it really needs time to get the whole idea and integrate it into your life.

I think one day he will be ready for your book (that sounds a bit pathetic), but for now there are too many chapters about monogamy and that will trigger him I think. My jealousy has always been a big problem in our relationship, so he shouldn´t feel forced again into this direction. It´s not my wish to possess him - instead I want to heal the relationship - but it may look like I wanted to...I have been so jealous that he finds my "jealous side" in many things, even if I am really not jealous (he doesn´t believe me!).

But I think the abstinence from orgasm has effects on my jealousy...over the last weeks jealous thoughts didn´t show up often...but, yeah, until...we had sex.

Sounds like a good plan

You know your situation best.

Just to clarify...my book isn't trying to convince anyone of monogamy. It's for people who want to be monogamous (for their own reasons), and want to outsmart biology. Smile

I know

your book isn´t trying to convince anyone of monogamy, but he might feel as if.
I like monogamy (when it works) because it takes out a lot of stress like always searching for a partner or the flexibility you need when changing partners every few days, weeks, months. Monogamy doesn´t mean there are no other people but your partner in your life anymore, but if your relationship is good working there is always someone with you.

At the moment I like my relationship, because it feels warm, intimate, calm and friendly...we are becoming friends, so to say.

By the way, I finally started my own blog.

Yes,

it frees up enormous energy for doing meaningful things. It's nice to have a trusted companion.

Good job starting the blog!