How much sexual excitement is compatible with Karezza?

Submitted by Daniel S. on
Printer-friendly version

Dear Karezza friends,

I am currently experimenting with Karezza - or to better express how I feel it: my partner and I are currently on the path towards Karezza. Sometimes "successfully", I think, and beautifully, and sometimes falling back into old patterns.

The question that is very important to me right now is the question of sexual excitement. We usually begin beautifully and gently, and the love energy is flowing and the heart connection is there. But often after a certain time, a strong sexual excitmenet is triggered (this usually happens when my partner touches my sexual organs, and the excitement becomes very strong in her) - at this moment I notice an instantaneous change of energy. The energy is no longer warm, loving, beautiful, but becomes an energy (to a greater or lesser extent) of lust, it is body-pleasure-centered, and I feel there is separation between us at that time and just a being possessed by the sexual excitement. (I am eventually drawn into the body-pleasure-centered energy as well)

For me this is a very big problem, as it goes against the whole spirit of what we are aspiring to. In my understanding and experience, where there is love there is no lust, and where there is lust there is no love. When we make love while maintaining the heart connection, we are happy, when the lust moments are too strongly present, we are unhappy, and often tired and de-energized (even while avoiding orgasm).

So my question is: how much sexual excitement is compatible with Karezza and with maintaining the love connection? The very nature of sex is that sexual energy is present and aroused, so in any kind of sexual relation, Karezza or otherwise, there must be some degree of sexual arousal - of course! But how to make this sexual arousal serve love, and not lust - at all times? Is it a question of degree - when the arousal is too strong (maybe this is what we can call "excitement"), it is too difficult to channel into love and thus makes Karezza very difficult? So the solution is to keep the arousal soft and gentle, to not allow it to become too strong?

And in this connection: what about the moments when our passion, the sexual energy and feelings for each other are very strong and powerful?

I would be so grateful if some of you could share your experience on this.

I would also like to know what the people who have written on Karezza say about this. I have only read the book by J. William Lloyd, quite carefully and thoroughly, though I think this is a book that can be re-read and re-read (so far I have read it twice). I remember that he says in the book that when the woman is feeling extremely passionate, it is possible for the man to maintain control and practice Karezza, in any position and with any intensity the woman desires, without losing control. When I read this I did not really understand, as it seemed to me against the spirit of Karezza for any wild excitement to be going on, even if on the part of only one of the partners.

Looking very much forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences! :)

Best,
Daniel

This one requires some

This one requires some experimentation. I'm still observing and learning and the results are confusing.

There are two situations, "I come" or "i don't come".

In terms of "will I come", quite often, even usually, I can maintain my "cool" and have my woman be quite excited and aroused and come, and I won't.

Other times, usually when I'm not as aroused, I will come quite easily when I don't want to. It's often when I'm not as aroused,...but feeling off. Physically off, mentally off. My erection's not as strong as it normally is, whatever reason, and I come rather quickly and it is unstoppable. But it's from less arousal, paradoxically.

Now, for "I don't come."

When I play with my OWN arousal, I can have amazing pleasure (quite often) and stay far enough away from the waterfall.

But at some point, I am too close to the waterfall and it is very difficult or impossible not to fall over the edge. I find this a two stage thing. If I stay in stage 1 all is fine. Stage 1 can have enormous pleasure and arousal, but just to a point. Stage 2 is like locking and loading the gun, and the gun *will* fire at this point. And if it doesn't, I'll feel drained afterwards and have weird and disreputable feelings for quite some time as if the gun *did* fire. 

If I create this enormous pleasure in myself and think I'm staying at stage 1, I may be wrong because there is a misleading delay. I can be in stage 2 and not realize it because it takes maybe 10 seconds or longer for stage 2 to register it's presence. I was reading some Masters and Johnson literature and they mention stage 2, although they call it something else whose name escapes me. But I can work up my pleasure to a point, but then I should stop and wait, and make sure I haven't gone too far.

If I play at stage 1 without going too far so that it clicks over to stage 2, I am fine, she can be aroused and excited and come and come again, and I won't come and I'll feel great afterwards.

 

About sexual excitement

Thank you, Emerson, for your reply! I really appreciate your time and thought.

My difficulty now is actually sexual arousal and excitement in itself. As I understand, the goal in Karezza is not to be really excited and experience incredible bodily pleasure, but to deepen the love and heart connection between two people. I have found so far that when one or both of us begins to get very excited sexually, the heart connection turns off, and the energy between us is no longer about love, but about lust. This is even when neither of us has an orgasm. Simply a time during the sexual experience when the arousal becomes very strong; at this moment the sexual energy is no longer serving as a carrier for the love (the love riding on the sexual energy), but becomes directed toward seeking pleasure and excitement for its own sake. This is very pleasant for the body, of course, but it is not what we want, and as I understand, not the goal of Karezza.

Thank you again, and looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts!

Daniel

i don't view

Strong sexual energy, feeling, pleasure as lust unless I am fantasizing, objectifying, idealizing. Being with reality is the ground of love and compassion.

@Daniel S

I wouldn't say "that is not the goal of Karezza." 

For me, the goal for me is to be together and hopefully not have an orgasm.

I play wih a great deal of arousal and pleasure, personally. It's just a matter of intensity. The arousal, or lust as you call it, isn't a problem, unless it gets out of hand and becomes the goal. If it gets too intense, it can bring me to "stage 2" and be a problem. But otherwise it's wonderful. At least that's my experience. I don't practice the "cool" variety, I suppose. 

 

"...As I understand, the goal

"...As I understand, the goal in Karezza is not to be really excited and experience incredible bodily pleasure, but to deepen the love and heart connection between two people..."

I think the first leads to the second: incredible bodily pleasure with your spouse or committed partner deepens the love and heart connection with your spouse or committed partner.

I think that physical exertion and enjoyment with your spouse or committed partner -- whether through dance, a brisk walk, a sail on a sunny day, a spirited game of tennis -- deepens the love and heart connection. Karezza is just another tool -- and maybe the most powerful one -- for doing such.

For me, Karezza results in incredible bodily pleasures, increased self-confidence, a sunny outlook, and sexual satiety. I can only experience these four Karezza benefits via the cooperation of my wife. That she helps provide me these four benefits deepens my love of her and strengthens our heart connection.

How to make this sexual arousal serve love, and not lust - a

Hello, We have never posted here before but have been doing Karezza exclusively for around 2 1/2 years.

Here are some ways we have found to maintain the desired arousal for a heart connection between partners when one is getting too "heated up".

A) Change to a new position. (avoid front to back positions as they tend to be automatic cues for hot sex)
B) Go back to doing some bonding exchanges until you feel cooled down enough to continue.
C) Stop doing things that you know will trigger your partner into old patterns of conventional sex and ask them to do the same for you.
D) Stay present with each other and keep eye contact as much as possible. It's more likely that one partner will veer off into old patterns of seeking a goal if they're not present with their partner and/or the experience.
E) Take your time. Go slow. Too much arousal usually happens most often when things are moving too fast.

Over time you develop a "sense" of when things are heading in this "heated up" direction and that it's time to cool down.

We like Diana Richardson's book called "The Love Keys" it is very specific about a lot of these things.

Hope this helps.

a reframe

Is sexual excitement compatible with Karezza?..It sure is, as far as I'm concerned. For me, sex is exciting...sex is arousing...sex is pleasurable...sex is lusty. In my experience, Karezza doesn't negate those things, and I wouldn't want it to.

What is "too much excitement" in relation to Karezza? I say, when you unwillingly go over the edge into an orgasm/ejaculation, or when it puts you into a place where you're fighting the urge to orgasm/ejaculate.

May I suggest a "reframe" around love and lust? To me, it sounds like you have them in polarity, especially in relation to Karezza. What I hear you saying is, "when sex is loving, then there is no lust, and when sex is lusty, then there is no love." What about lusty sex filled with love?! What about putting the two together? Look at the lust a little differently. See it as root/genital creative sexual energy combined with heart love energy. This actually comes pretty close to my definition of Karezza.

The other point I want to make relates to what you quoted from William Lloyd: Become the master of your sexual energy. Go ahead, get on the horse of your desire and ride...but don't let it steer YOU, you steer IT. Feel yourself sending your desire into her, with passion AND love. Love her with your sexual passion.

From my experience, this part takes time and practice. Mastering one's sexual urges is definitely a challenge for a man but an experience that is well worth the time and effort required. Maybe you need to tell your woman not to fondle your genitals if it gets you so excited that you lose control. Also, slow it down if you find yourself losing the "love connection". Think of yourself as the anchor, and she is the kite.

Having Fun Defining Lust

This post has brought up a wonderful conversation. The word lust sure conjures up and feels connected to a lot of other words. Some of them by definition.

LUST

noun
1.
very strong sexual desire.
"he knew that his lust for her had returned"
synonyms: sexual desire, sexual appetite, sexual longing, ardor, desire, passion;libido, sex drive, sexuality, biological urge; lechery, lasciviousness, concupiscence; informal: horniness, the hots, randiness
"his lust for her"

verb
1.
have a very strong sexual desire for someone.
"he really lusted after me in those days"
synonyms: desire, be consumed with desire for, find sexually attractive, crave, covet, ache for, burn for; informalhave the hots for, fancy, have a thing about/for, drool over
"he lusted after his employer's wife"

Aside from the more fundamentalist Christian standpoint, which we personally don’t know very much about, the more secular used term for us brought up other words like tempting, seduction, sirens, enticing. Even lasciviousness can mean lewd. It can also mean “biological urge”. One of the things that Karezza has been useful for us, is in dissolving the (lustful) ego energy and transmuting the energy into spiritual energy, that is one with the Divine and all creation, nature, source etc.

We also found that the Four Noble Truths of the Buddha had something to say about lust as well. Here in two of them:

The Second Noble Truth is the cause of suffering. The cause of suffering is lust. The surrounding world affects sensation and begets a craving thirst that clamors for immediate satisfaction. The illusion of self originates and manifests itself in a cleaving to things. The desire to live for the enjoyment of self entangles us in a net of sorrows. Pleasures are the bait and the result is pain.

The Third Noble Truth is the cessation of suffering. He who extinguishes self will be free from lust. He no longer craves and the flames of desire find no material to feed upon, thus they are extinguished.

my interpretation of the 2nd noble truth

Is that the problem is created by craving. Craving becoming anything other than what is now. Craving sensual pleasure is just one of the cravings. Experiencing sensual pleasure without craving is not the problem.

Yes, transforming sexual energy to life and spiritual energy is a noble art