Non-ejaculatory orgasm vs. no orgasm

Submitted by Ursa on
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Hi everyone!

I'm new to this community but this website has prompted a lot of new research into my sexuality. So thank you a lot for that! I really love that the truth about our sexual vitality is slowly being conveyed to the masses. It's funny because techniques for conserving our bodily resources have been around for thousands of years, yet men in the west seem to be deprived of this information due to the strictly pro-creative angle that Christianity has taken in our culture.

And that's what I'm posting to ask about. A lot of the wording on this site, and in people's posts, makes it seem like orgasm is the problem. It's my understanding, both in theory and in practice, that for men, orgasm and ejaculation are separate events. The orgasm occurs about 10-15 seconds before ejaculation. It's the orgasm that contains all the vital energy, which if channeled in a different way, can really revitalize the body, mind, and consciousness. Whereas, if you ejaculate each time you orgasm, your body expels vital nutrition and sexual energy.

So I'm just writing this post to get some clarification. I do believe that excessive ejaculation depletes the body and the mind, especially the neuro-receptors in the brain that deal with reward. But my personal experience, and 2,000 years of Daoism demonstrates that non-ejaculatory orgasm *does not* deplete the body. It actually rejuvenates it. It's because ejaculation is the BODY'S reward for passing on its genes, thus the dopamine kick comes into play and then tapers off. But with non-ejaculatory orgasm, you are triggering the bio-electric pleasure without the final dopamine kick... so it can go on and on indefinitely (multiple orgasms), until you decide to stop. This has been my experience.

Likewise, pure abstinence is not the solution. The sexual energy build and builds, and needs some place to go. Self-pleasuring and sexuality are not optional... these energies need a place to go as our creative human potential. Also, long-term abstinence results in the penis being retracted into the body, which is what a lot of middle aged and senior men experience. So... I don't think simply avoiding sexual pleasure is the answer.

The thoughts of this community are most welcome. I don't think masturbation or frequent sex are necessarily the problem, so much as the way the sexual energy is channeled. Instead of expelling it, you can redirect it to have spiritual experiences. This is what many cultures have espoused and done for a very long time. I agree that porn is problematic... not only because it distorts our image of what is sexually desirable, but because the act of looking at porn distracts you from your own body, its rate of arousal, and where the energy is going. It also de-motivates men from engaging with women and each other because their desire has already been quelled on the internet. One of the many problems of our digital age.

Thanks so much for reading!!

That's a great topic

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

My thinking is not necessarily in conflict with Daoism, which actually covered a lot of different ground over the centuries (see http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/taoism_chinese_sexology_wile), but I would say that my thinking is somewhat out of alignment with the Daoist ideas as you present them.

In my view, it's not ejaculation alone that causes the problematic symptoms, but also supernormal stimulation of the brain. In fact, the latter can be the biggest part of those symptoms (and unfortunate perception shifts toward a partner). Maybe start with this article for a quick understanding: Orgasm’s Hidden Cycle

In my view, therefore, a simplistic division between orgasm and ejaculation isn't helpful. If one continuously intensely overstimulates the sexual centers of the brain with too much arousal, one can experience neurochemical ripples, whether or not one ejaculates. Women can be affected by these too.

See:

Women: Does Orgasm Give You a Hangover?

Men: Does Frequent Ejaculation Cause a Hangover?

I think you might also find this article of interest: Comparing Neo-Daoism with Karezza

I don't know what you mean about "pure abstinence." I think sexual energy is automatically transmuted if it's contained. It doesn't have to be expressed as any kind of an orgasm...although lovers often describe a series of blissful feelings during this approach to sex. Some may think of them as mini-orgasms, but they are not the goal of the practice, which is contented harmony between mates.

I do not agree with your claim about retraction of genitals from practicing karezza. In fact, I have heard the reverse. Maybe take a look at the FAQs under "Karezza Korner" for people's actual experiences.

Marnia wrote:

[quote=Marnia]If one continuously intensely overstimulates the sexual centers of the brain with too much arousal, one can experience neurochemical ripples, whether or not one ejaculates. Women can be affected by these too.[/quote]

Where is the scientific evidence that WOMEN experience this hangover? You have gathered the vast info. on men and that makes sense (and one reason why most other karezza advocates see this as a male problem only).

If multiorgasmic women don't have dopamine crash, etc. then why do you say "women can be affected by these too." Men will inevitably be affected but women ... I don't think you can generalize and the answer is probably the opposite of what you claim.

***Evidence? ***

PS: Oral sex is the Elephant in the Room on this splendid Karezza site. Women become divine with it and intercourse follows for bonding with their mate. Why deny women that which Nature designed them for?

It depends on the woman

My wife crashes hard for 2+ weeks after an orgasm, every time. She has grown to really hate this outcome. While the arousal and subsequent orgasm feel great, she becomes a different person about a week later; distant and constantly exhausted. I am reporting one person's experience which is not scientific. However, we have had sufficient time to experiment and observe (about 1 year). There is no doubt for either of us about this.

We find the information to be a great gift without which we were really fumbling in the dark.

I'm very happy for you that your woman can enjoy orgasms without negative consequences, but be careful about generalizing to all women.

My understanding is that the science behind these observations is at a very early stage. Much more needs to be done. But that is no reason to adopt a closed-minded attitude to the information. We know many valuable things that have not been proven scientifically. This is just one of those, for now...

Please stop

bombing the forum with your views and demands. We all know what you think by now, and it's great that you have your fixed views. Enjoy.

For those who are interested, the evidence is here, as I posted in response to one of your dozen other posts:

Why Stop Orgasm Research at Climax?

Women: Does Orgasm Give You A Hangover? | Reuniting

No one has been researching this directly, so it's amazing that any evidence has turned up - given the strong assumptions that orgasm is always beneficial for women. You are not alone in your prejudices, but you have much to learn. You are apparently judging your lovers' orgasm effects by short-term changes. The orgasm cycle is much longer, and that's why it escapes most women's attention.

Nature designed us for mating and babies. But we can use our bonding and sexual machinery to achieve balance too.

Do you use birth control? Is so, you're behaving "unnaturally." Just saying....

A bit "high brow" for a

A bit "high brow" for a layman like me. To enter into the conversation and give the opinion of one really simple man. This non ejaculatory orgasm sounds really good and is achievable. For me I have found it like eating your favorite food or drinking your favorite beverage and swallowing but at the last second gagging it up and spitting it out. The final satisfaction and satiety is denied yes.. but at the expense of going over the edge where the body thought it had achieved it's goal already.. so the body is tricked and still hungry.. Like sexual Bulimia nervosa. The natural biological sequence has been very unnaturally interrupted at a painful and key point. Personally I concluded if I was going to the point of orgasm and retained my ejaculate it aggravated my sexual drive to the point of an even more intense and painful need to ejaculate.. soon. .. precum or just drainage of excess semen would dribble out randomly occasionally. Maybe advanced sexual gurus are better at it. Or just other individuals with different bodies may love it. But it did not work for me.
Karezza.. well .. solo Karezza is my only experience as of now.. calms my sexual beast. If someone needs more libido in an unhealthy way I suppose non ejaculatory orgasms could be the ticket. I honestly tried orgasm without ejaculation and it sucked badly. Hence the current ranting.. New meaning to the term blue balls. If it works for you .. wonderful.. If this is just an academic discussion and you haven't personally experimented then try it yourself and get back to me. My life is an ongoing intrepid experiment .. I rarely ask a lot before I just see if it works for my body. I am not timid.. or arm chair academic. Orgasm without ejaculation for me was just plain stupid and painful and made the perpetual sex craving that can arise in this man intolerable.
With Karezza my interpretation is that you don't approach the literal spillway just to avoid the massive surges of hormones that result from the neurochemical cascade that leads orgasm to occur. Ejaculate has little to do with the whole thing I thought.. Just the end of a biological cascade of events. I mean there is the energy and nutrients that it takes to manufacture the little spermies :) but I think a nice milkshake or T-bone steak could replenish a tablespoon or two of sperm and prostate fluid. The mystic energy of the actual sperm body may have more significance than I am attaching to it.. but when I scrub with soap and water I don't attach much significance in energy to lost skin cells my body sloughs in the natural cascade of skin replenishing.
For me neither orgasm or ejaculation is my enemy.. just like food is not my enemy. I just don't over indulge in either. I don't indulge in eating a whole cake and then elect to regurgitate it so I can eat more cake and then more cake while my mind indulges in the dopamine release for the pleasure of cake while my body says what the fuck are you doing? I prefer to have a little cake every once and a while.. maybe even a little cake every day.. and savor it in my mouth and gently swallow it. Is this Cake Karezza ?
One final thing. I am not abstaining from anything. I am not starving my body or penis from attention. I caress myself. I look at myself in the mirror and say what a nice body I have. I watch my penis engorge in my hand and feel the pleasure of my own touch. My penis isn't shrinking into my body.. I can get back to you on this too.. but honestly it appears to be thickening a bit and staying chubbier and overall stays much larger than when I was a porn addict ejaculating multiple times a day. I don't want to sound over defensive but conjecture when it comes to my penis retracting into my body even a centimeter alarms even a logical man like me. Think of how this conjecture can effect others who are exploring a way out of their own private sexual hell. Maybe we should look into the long held eastern myth of how consuming ground up Rhino tusks make one's penis longer too . But the really great thing is with bonded lovemaking penis in vagina intercourse is an optional part of the formula. Maybe completely abstaining from any sexual thoughts or self stimulation does result in a use it or lose it kind of thing. But this is a Karezza forum and not a sexual abstinence forum.. the two are worlds apart in my opinion and experience.

PS .. One more one more

PS .. One more one more thing. When I experimented with nonejaculatory orgasm.. either by mental discipline or mental combined with mechanical restriction from my lovers hand or my own.. I could have more such orgasms than if I had ejaculated I know for a fact. But an unhappy plateau and cliff was reached the same as ever. An even more intense and persistent hangover would result .. if I stopped ejaculation for a few days. more orgasms could occur but depression, anger or aggression combined with a quicker neediness for another orgasm "fix" resulted. I needed more to the point of exhaustion and pain. Over all terrible but underlying addictive ecstatic experiences I could have a longer run with. Ending in a crash. For me this is only logical now too. Dopamine production and receptors have their logical behaviors. The more dopamine I make with any kind of extreme sexual release.. sperm or not .. the fewer receptors the body will feel it needs .. the more orgasms I will crave to stimulate further compensating diminishing dopamine receptors.. I would just keep drenching my receptors to see how long I could satisfy my craving.. making it worse. again.

I am able to be non

I am able to be non-ejaculatory for weeks, and having non-ejaculative sex and mtb for weeks, but once I decide to ejaculate (let's say after 2 or 3 weeks), the ejaculation will cause me to be totally exhausted over the next 2 - 3 days.

I am 36, and I found that if I MTB and ejaculate, I tend to get fatigue headache, short of breath, overall fatigue, the next 2 days.
If I have sex and ejaculate, I don't feel so wiped out.

Why is that Maria???
Is it because during sex there is energy exchange with a woman, while DIY there's no energy exchange but energy squandered?

The body perceives the two activities

differently. For example, researcher Stuart Brody discovered that 4 times as much prolactin is released after ejaculatory intercourse as during ejaculatory masturbation. In the latter case, "the job isn't done yet," so the brain just doesn't seem to "reward" you with the same neurochemical cocktail. Of course, not every guy is the same. It's interesting, eh?

Abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16095799

You might find this article interesting too: http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rethinking-wonders-adult-masturbation

But there could also been energetic things going on. Certainly, there are more relevant hormonal and neurochemical things going on. For example, oxytocin rises from warm touch (of another person), so intercourse offers that too (unless it's porn-style intercourse... Biggrin).

ejaculations take a lot out of a guy

don't know why. But the fact is that it is true. As you get older, even more true.

Why don't guys notice this? Because almost all men are masturbating pretty much consistently from adolescence without a break.

It becomes obvious when you stop ejaculating for awhile, but until then, not.

I also think that sensitivity to ejaculations increases, but the results have been there all along, unnoticed.

There are cultures where masturbation is rare, apparently, so they don't even have a word for it. That's what I've read, anyway.

BTW, edging without orgasm seems to be harmful to most guys so you may want to experiment with stopping that also.

Thanks for your replies.

Thanks for your replies.

Tortoise, it sounds like you achieved the first part of multiple orgasms, but not the second. The second part involves channeling the energy through the perineum, up the spine, and into the head. Then you send the energy down the front of your body, to the life gate (around the belly button) where it is stored. This cycle is called the Microcosmic Orbit and Daoists have practiced it for thousands of years.

Once you successfully channel the orgasmic energy upward, you have a full body orgasm and your erection goes down. The orgasm is different than the brain/chemical one. It's a bio-electric one and it revitalizes and invigorates your entire body. It feels like a wave that travels over your entire body, and it's extremely blissful. You can do it endlessly, and it doesn't give you the hangover that ejaculation does.

If you don't do this, then all the built up sexual energy will remain in your pelvis, causing feelings of frustration and various challenging emotions. You'll feel like you need to ejaculate to get the energy out.

And yes, I have direct experience with this. It's not just academic. Full body orgasms are real, and so are the energy systems involved.

If you're merely abstaining but not practicing the redirection of energy, then you not only might frustrate yourself but you aren't getting benefits from all that built up sexual energy.

Once you and your partner have the technique down, you can orgasm repeatedly, having very long, elating sexual sessions that feel extremely spiritual. And at the end you can both stop together, and have post-sex intimacy and bonding that is normally hard to have after ejaculating.

I've found whole body pleasure of the old orgasms

but without the orgasm. It's pretty easy to learn and I've taught it to women and men.

It's what I do.

I have no interest in orgasms myself. I try to avoid them. But the pleasure from sex is 100 times what it used to be for me. I practice what you might call "energetic Karezza", pretty active and not just "connecting" but short of orgasm.

Using it like a drug? I'm not

Using it like a drug? I'm not sure I understand.

The purpose is to use sexual energy for spiritual purposes, and physical health.

I've read your studies and most of them relate to rats, which is not entirely relevant.

Sorry, forgot to answer your

Sorry, forgot to answer your question. I'm in a committed LTR, and we both use tantric techniques to please each other and strengthen our connection.

I find the comparison of it to a drug very strange because it doesn't seem that way. We're not addicted or dependent. We love each other deeply.

That's great

I'm glad you've found a balanced form of tantra. Some are not, and lead to a lot of "partner churning" as the partners discover they "need" new thrills to intensify their experience.

Actually, rat research on the limbic system of the brain is surprisingly relevant to all mammals because some of these primitive mechanisms (like the one that controls fundamental aspects of the drive to mate) are much the same in all mammals. That's not to say that humans don't have some behavioral options that other mammals don't. Smile

We're happy to hear about your experience, Ursa. We're just a little cautious about generalizing from it.

Tell us more about how you discovered your approach to sex and how long you've been with your partner.

I doubt you'll find one opinion about this here

The general attitude of the community is that couples should find what works best for them.

That said, I think not going for orgasm can show people some very interesting, unexpected, things, which simply can't be seen as long as one thinks regular orgasm is beneficial. In my book, for example, I encourage couples to pass it up for three weeks (while engaging in daily affection and/or intercourse) before experimenting with orgasm...and then compare their state of mind.

Our experience is that we prefer not going for orgasm...but it sometimes happens anyway. That's what works best for us.

real tantra

The real spiritual benefit of this practice is to refine gross sexual energy into subtlest spiritual energy. It is done by canalization of energy through the spinal channel which becomes very sensitive conductor. Although it takes long years of practice; first , separately, in long sessions of concentration and breath exercises, then, in union. and finally, when this energy is stored in the spine and practitioner cultivates deep meditation, the perception becomes superconcious, experience of the Divine, the purpose of Tantra, where no passion or sex exist at all...If this spinal channel is not sensitive enough, nothing will happen; sexual energy will be blocked in lower plexuses, it doesn't satisfy the person and can bring neurotic reactions.Therefore, this cultivation should be done very gradually and with caution... My own experience: after some bumpy beginnings since 25 years ago I established smoothly in this practice; 7 years without ejaculation, feel great, learned to control the energy, it became so abundant that it drips from my hands and it gave me ability to heal and help people. Meditation became very deep and transparent...So I advice Tantra to all.

Marnia,

Marnia,
do you have a link or guide on how to open the microcosmic orbit?

Mantak Chia's Power Draw is difficult to do, because the Power Draw exercise is to pull the hot sexual energy to the crown when you are edging. Very hard to control, and he also warns the hot energy may "fry your brain".

Chia has several books on this

If you want to learn it, go to him. It's not something I can help you with because it is not my path.

That said, I'm grateful to Chia because his book helped me put 2 + 2 together. He wrote that after too much ejaculation the man can project resentment onto his partner because he has lost too much sexual energy. That helped me see that the same thing can happen to women...and that semen is therefore not the issue.

Let us know how you get on.