"Rules" for procreation?

Submitted by dfb1904 on
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This no longer applies to me, but it is a question I have always had, and I joined this site mainly to have it answered.

I definitely subscribe to the theory behind men withholding orgasms. I had practiced it for four, five, six months at a time for years, and now have completely accepted it as my lifestyle.

But what about procreation? I know that it can be seen as a positive expression, but isn’t it still sending a male’s system “out of whack”? While it possibly can be argued that our souls are pure enough to keep our life-force strong after "reproductive" orgasms, I’m not sure if I buy into that theory. To me, I would think that “an O is an O” as far as our internal (and external) organs are concerned.

What advice is there for men who practice the withholding lifestyle but also want to procreate? Would it be suggested that the male take the most strategic route towards successful procreation? For instance, having reproductive sex once or twice a day while the female is fertile. Or would it be suggested that he try to impregnate the female while ejaculating as infrequently as possible? For instance, having reproductive sex just once each month and then waiting to see if it was successful?

You're taking it a bit too

You're taking it a bit too seriously. An orgasm is just an orgasm, it's not a death of personality. Sure, it has some side effects, just like drinking alcohol does. Only people don't know about the side effects and get confused. Just have your orgasms. People have them all the time and they can still be people.

Really!

Enjoy making some babies and understand that there may well be a hangover.
Blessings on the children and their loving parents!

Reproduction While Withholding

Just my opinion, but I agree with you that that in the withholding lifestyle any ejaculation is a sacrifice and should be consistently avoided. But conception doesn't require ejaculation. Leakage during frequent, extended intimate contact could be enough over time. And if that doesn't work, there's prostate massage. Ejaculation is just nature's overkill to make reproduction likely.

I See

how the 'leakage' would work and the idea of frequent prolonged lovemaking (heaven) reveals ejaculation/orgasm as the shortcut it is. Please tell us more about how prostate massage insemination is not ejaculation/orgasm.
Blessings on the babies and their parents

Prostate Massage Sperm Harvesting

Prostate fluid (which can have sperm in it) , which massage causes to leak out of the penis, is collected and inserted in the vagina (the old "turkey baster" method). May cause some minor release of built-up pressure, but it's not ejaculation, and certainly not an orgasm). Sperm leaking out in pre-cum (How many teenage girls have said "I can't be pregnant; we never "did it"?!) is certainly preferable, but if that doesn't work over time....

Got it

thanks, never paid attention to leakage from massage. I've ejaculated with anal sex and indeed, it has not had the satisfaction of an orgasm.

Thanks for the input so far.

Thanks for the input so far. I am somewhat in the middle in my thinking.

Abandoning withholding seems to almost discredit it, as if it wasn't so important in the first place. Yet while I agree with AlexG's mindset, I find those proposed methods of reproduction to be too extreme.

I am seeing ejaculation for reproduction as a sort of "necessary evil".

"Discrediting Withholding"

I'm afraid I agree with you about abandoning withholding seeming to discredit it. As I see it, semen retention isn't just about what you choose not to do; it's about who you choose to become. In a way, abandoning withholding would be like at least a temporary "death of (the new) personality" (see Ziarp's comment to the contrary).

Why do you find my proposed methods of reproduction too exteme (just curious).

Maybe prostate massage isn't

Maybe prostate massage isn't extreme, but it isn't something that I'd want to do. I don't have a macho mentality, nor a prudish one, but that's just something I wouldn't do. As much as I believe that orgasm is a drug that we males are better off avoiding, I couldn't imagine procreating in any way other than "good, old-fashioned" sex, which is what I did years ago, hence my disclaimer that this topic no longer applies to me personally.

Relying on "leakage" sounds like it would be one of the most emotionally agonizing practices imaginable. A man and woman decide to procreate and then must leave it up to fate? a fate with really bad odds? That sounds awful.

I really do agree with you about the temporary death of the new personality. I would really be at odds with myself if I ever chose to have another child. So it's not that I discredit your line of thinking at all. I'm much closer to your point of view than the first two respondents. I think if I were in that position again, I'd use a lot more science to pinpoint the best chances of reproduction using the least ejaculatory-lovemaking possible. It's not a perfect solution, but I think that's what I'd do.

A curve ball

Hi dfb1904 et al.,

I'm going to throw a curve ball into this conversation because otherwise I won't join it at all. Why are you interested in procreation in the first place? Is it really a constructive thing to do at this point in time?

Cheers,

"Arnold"

No Little Arnolds in the World?

I take your comment, “Is it really a constructive thing to do at this point in time?” to mean that the world’s condition is such that it is irresponsible to have children based upon those terrible conditions. Normally your posts seem very positive, so maybe this isn’t so much a curve ball but a low slider. Lot of batters chase those and strike out.

Strangely enough, the places where the conditions are the worse people seem to have the most children. In the developed world things are pretty good. Yes there are crazy dictators running Russia, China and North Korea, not to mention every country in the Middle East and Africa. But life still goes on in those places as it has for several millennia. Sundown today started Passover, the Jewish holiday with the crazy pharaoh who wanted to kill all of the Jews. Things look pretty much the same in the Middle East as when Moses wandered out into the desert.

You seem to have an inquisitive mind so I don’t think you are counting the world or mankind out yet either. There are simply too many unanswered questions for those of us who are in search of answers.

A low slider

Hi Maso,

Wow! I wish I knew more about baseball! I'm not totally sure what a low slider is, but I'm gathering that it's a difficult ball to hit. Smile

Thanks for your compliment about my positive posts. I am very positive about Marnia's approach to Karezza, yet quite frustrated with its lack of popularity locally. I am also very positive about Cuddle Party and have similar frustrations with it too.

I live in a place that is very much oriented towards "family values". I also grew up in that social environment, yet have chosen a life that is fundamentally different. I spent time in Osho's communes, tried intimacy with a woman I desired very strongly and found, much to my surprise, that my efforts to relate constructively to her failed miserably. Many years, much aloneness, and much soul searching later, I see that I didn't see the importance of a conscious, loving, and most importantly for me, healing, approach to intimacy with a woman. I was simply being driven by biological urges and an inability to secure safety, satisfaction, and affection for myself outside of the package deal.

I knew when I was 19 that I would never father children. I definitely paid the price of an early relationship for that stance. I still don't understand the normal drive to reproduce given the chaos and stress it often engenders. Yes, in many poor nations, the reproductive rate is high. It's a traditional method for old age security. Their impact per capita on the environment is low compared to ours. Canada (where I live) has one of the highest per capita environmental impacts in the world. I frequently run into the argument that population control is an issue of third world countries. I tend to think differently.

I think we need to find a way to create a harmonious relationship between humans and the natural world upon which we depend. That is going to require some way to make decisions as a "village" as to how many people we can realistically support and what population level would be optimal for the well being of all beings. That decision-making process is going to require much more awareness of the importance of healthy use of sex energy and a willingness to see that "making babies" is not always constructive.

I know it's a strong urge and I know that our sense of community at this level is very weak. I'm quite convinced that 7 billion people on the earth is too much for the way we treat it. I figure we have to start somewhere. So I thought I'd introduce the idea. I see Cuddle Party as a way to start breaking down the barriers to Love between individuals and strengthen and deepen the love within sexual couples. It's a key ingredient to creating the "village" in my mind. I see Karezza as a way to bring more health, awareness and love into intimate sexual couples. With a strong and healthy enough "village" we can start tackling these issues. I know we are a long way off. I'm an irrepressible dreamer. Perhaps those dreams aren't so crazy after all!

I want humanity to live and prosper well into the foreseeable future. I want other people's children to have a good life. It's going to require a major inner transformation in all of us to secure this direction. I'm doing what I can. Writing about unpopular topics and promoting unpopular practices are two of the directions I'm pursuing in community.

Thanks for your post.

Sincerely.

"Arnold"

Spiritual Perspective (Parthenogenesis, Antinalism)

As an esotericist (subscribing to Rosicrucian, Essenian
and Gnostic principles, including Samael Aun Weor's Gnosticism
or Neo-Gnosticism), I firmly believe that the semen is meant to be
ultimately transmuted through sex magic or sexual tantra and not
to be dispensed with in any way, including through procreation, thereby
acceding to the highest spiritual attunement possible in this existence.

Through parthenogenesis, or virgin conception; even through
sexual magic without seminal dispensation, is how we're meant
to conceive. The Story of Laurie seems to be a good example
but we're most familiar with the biblical story of immaculate conception
despite our disregarding it.

Now this does not mean we're all meant to have children, in my opinion,
especially considering our problem with overpopulation.
I believe having ideal kind of children is relative to our karmic balance
and is a matter between us and the Court of Divine Justice.
Ideally, I think many of us should consider an antinatalist outlook
and rid ourselves of chasing orgasms and procreating; essentially severing
ourselves from living by the animalistic nature of our triune brain.

P.S.
It wasn't my intention to seem like a bible-weilding imposer.
I, however, meant to share my thoughts and incite or motivate to the point where one
might want to investigate, perhaps also becoming inspired to become a seeker.
For wherever in my writing I may seem to be patristic also, this was never my intention.
Thank you!

The "biblical story of

The "biblical story of immaculate conception" is a translation mistake, it's not actually in the Bible. Jesus wasn't the son of a "virgin", he was just the son of a "young woman" and then the translator came and messed it up. If you study theology at university, they will actually tell you this, yet church dogma will still require you to teach the virgin story to people.

Just know that if you base your argument on this, you're factually incorrect.

When is a Virgin a Virgin or Not a Virgin?

This may be an odd explanation coming form an Italian American nominally Catholic person; but growing up one of my friends was from a religious Jewish family. My friend’s dad always liked to give non-Jews a better Jewish understanding, so I learned a lot stuff. So here is the explanation on the term of “virgin”. In biblical Hebrew there is no term for “virgin” meaning someone who has never had sex. The word used in the bible means a “young woman” or “maiden”.

The concept of a messiah is very much a Jewish belief accepted by Christians. To Jews the messiah was to be a normal person who accomplished certain tasks and would lead mankind in the end times. There was no supernatural belief regarding the person’s birth, which is only a Christian concept. Therefore it is not so much a mistranslation but more a cultural and religious misunderstanding.

The same issue comes in Genesis with the creation of the world in seven “days”. The in ancient Hebrew the word for “day” also meant “eon” or “era” or “some passage of time”. The meaning was never to be seven 24 hour days. Even more confusion when we get English involved, “Thou shall not kill”. That is simply a problem of Medieval English; “kill” at that time was used for what we understand as “murder”. Medieval English would have likely used the word “slay” as we use the word “kill”. As in slay a dragon. If you think English has been the same forever, try reading Chaucer.

Direct translations are difficult. The first real computerized translation program was developed by IBM. It translated, “Out of sight, out of mind” as “Invisible imbecile”. Technically correct but definitely not the same meaning.

The short answer is, don’t use biblical references for medical studies on fertility.

In the Kabbalah tradition,

In the Kabbalah tradition, the sephiroth
is symbolic of the microcosm of our bodies
whilst also being symbolic of the macrocosm.
Genesis, which is constituent of the Torah, is
riddled with symbolisms such as that of the fall
of Adam which is the fall of the human race and the
fall of the individual represented in our physiology in
such degenerative forms when we are sexually
incontinent among other things.
I, following Alice Bailey (Theosophist), refers to
this as esoteric physiology which is the "medical
studies" to which I subscribe, along with applying
root word and meaning studies as best to my being
an esotericist.

Judging by how The Book of Daniel speaks to the fulfil-
ment of the prophecy of the building of the temple from
its commissioning to building, I'd researched and found
that in the creationist view of 24 hour days is flawed.

There is so much to explore so we mustn't limit our selves.

Virginity

Thanks Eb-Benar,

Thanks for your post. I found your perspective intriguing.

I've been long inspired by Osho and my understanding of his meaning of the word "Virginity" is very different than how it is routinely used in our culture. It's more about innocence and play than having anything to do with physicality. Here's an excerpt from one of his many talks:

http://www.osho.com/iosho/library/read-book/online-library-sex-lover-wom...

I hope you find it interesting.

Sincerely,

"Arnold"

Osho is quite the inspiration

Osho is quite the inspiration.

Thank you for the reinforcement Arnold.
How Osho puts it is exactly how I've come
to think of it. Unfortunately, not everyone sees
it this way nor is there yet the realization among
many that our abuse of the creative energy is causing us
grave problems.

References

Here are some references I think can give you a good synthesis
In your investigation.
There is much, much more but I think this will suffice.
I've referenced persons as well whose works are so
voluminous but bits of reading here and there should do it.
I'd recommend beginning at The Gnostic Archive.

Max Heindel's Rosicrucianism, as I call it,
is what you'll find via below link (Free correspondence
course)
/www.rosicrucian.com

Ancient Mystical Order of the Rosae Crucis
(You can download PDF format documents
that are good reference material)
www.rosicrucian.org

Olivier Manitara continues the Essenian lineage
of the esoteric tradition
www.essenespirit.com

The Gnostic Archive
www.gnosis.org/welcome

Samael Aun Weor's Gnosticism or Neo-Gnosticism
(Free correspondence course)
www.gnosticteachings.org

www.thenazareneway.com

About the Teachings of Peter Deunov
www.with-omraam.com

www.theosophy.org

Inner Christianity (book) by Joscelyn Godwin
The Gnostic Gospels, The Gnostic Paul and
Beyond Belief all books by Elaine Pagels

The mystics Rudolf Steiner, Helena Blavatsky and Joseph
Campbell