Wife not into the idea of karezza, why?

Submitted by SlowLove on
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I've read Cupid's Poisoned Arrow and it makes complete sense to me, and what I am experiencing in my marriage of 14 years. Thanks for this excellent book and website! I am two weeks into nofap and feeling great, with tons more energy and want to make it to 90 days. I explained to my wife the effects of orgasm on me, and she was skeptical. I've encouraged her to read the book or some of the short summaries of Karezza on this website but she has zero interest in reading anything about it.

She has assured me that she's happy in our marriage, but when I tell her I need more intimacy from her, it hurts her feelings. I thought she just had a low sex drive for the last 10 years or so, and I have harbored resentment for this, but I understand why now after reading the book. I really see Karezza as a great solution to improving intimacy with my wife.

I tried Karezza once with her three weeks ago and she was not into it, and ended up wanting to have sex the old way. She said it was boring and was worried about being wet for so long might give her toxic shock or a yeast infection. Are these valid concerns?

The last two weeks have been great, and I feel closer to her than I have in years giving her massages at night. She likes not feeling pressured with sex. I really get the vibe though that she would rather go back to the old ways, where she has obligatory sex and I take care of myself between interludes. It works for her I think. She has never liked cuddling and can easily feel smothered, which are key parts of Karezza in my understanding of it. But continuing without the actual Karezza sex part is hurtful to me, because I read how the other women on this site love the experience and wonder why my wife doesn't.

I keyed into something in the book that states Karezza only works if both partners are in love with each other, and can't help to wonder. Is that what the problem likely is?

Thanks

2 Weeks nofap

YAY!!! it's a really important piece. Keep it up! (pun discovered)
I know your story, man, because it's mine as well. We did the obligatory sex thing for a long time. I'm such a dick head that getting my rocks off once a week was just about good enough. Now that intimacy is more important, I need to change.
I'm not much interested in other people's wonderful karezza stories. I read them and I want more from my Izzy than she wants to give. Which ties in too nicely with my old story of wanting more sex with her. When I bring up the topic of improving our sex life, she has said more than a few times, "It's never enough for you". To which the starving man reply's, "Until I'm fed, that's true." I want the stories of the couples who have struggled to gain satisfying intimacy. Check out Sender's posts, he's done the hard work.
I discovered Marnia and Gary's work 7 years ago and am astounded at my many relapses and lack of progress. But, as we say at the end of a 12 Step meeting, "Keep Coming Back!"....every day, every breath

Sensory Defensiveness

is another consideration. http://wilbarger.tripod.com/id2.html My Izzy has a touch of this. Occupational Therapists treat Sensory Processing Disorders. I gave Izzy the test and she would not qualify for treatment. However, she is easily spooked, cuts all the tags out of her clothes, and prefers high pressure touch to light. I warn her when I'm about to touch her. I also accommodate my touch toward deep massage and firm hugs. A good book is The Out-of-Sync Child http://out-of-sync-child.com/ Kranowitz also has a book on fun activities that I should read.

I think it takes time for women to relax

after years of "just getting on with it." To avoid smothering her, make the contact as close to daily as possible, but keep it short. If she's restless or looks at the clock, just say "that's all you get for now" and end whatever you're doing. I'm guessing that as she relaxes, your touch will feel better and she'll be more open to it.

Stick to non-sexual touch at first.

thanks

Funny, she has told me this too! "It's never enough for you". It's amazing that so many couples have the same struggles, down to the same words used in conversations! More evidence that the underlying issues are caused by cupid's poison.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it! We both travel a lot for work, which makes keeping the connection even more challenging, but I will keep it non-sexual for as long as she needs. Your recommendation makes sense.

Is there any merit to her concern about toxic shock or yeast infections from Karezza?

Somewhat off topic

I thought I'd add a comment here, because I think it might have some relevance.

I've experienced many men (including myself) to be somewhat obsessed with sex and physical intimacy. Many women seem to be more into the emotional component of relating and getting her need for a long term partner satisfied. Both of these seem to be addictive patterns to me.

I've noticed that feelings of sexual arousal in myself often coincide with an effort to avoid feelings of fear, emotional pain or vulnerability in myself. These aren't exactly the kinds of feelings which characterize an "attractive man" to most women and hence most of us men try to avoid within ourselves as well. Fear of attractive women is something I've felt quite intensely at times, yet don't communicate it much, if at all. It seems to me, that fear in men is still quite taboo, particularly around sex. It certainly is in me.

I saw a film on men's fear recently. It wasn't directly about sex, but there was clearly a strong (and quite adversarial) subtle sexual dynamic in the connection between the two men described (see: http://www.facingfearmovie.com/). It is the most remarkable story of forgiveness I have ever seen. I hope you find this of interest too.

Cheers,

"Arnold"

Quite frankly, I'm amazed

Quite frankly, I'm amazed there's a woman on the planet that wants to have sex at all considering the treatment of women and their sexuality by men for a very very long time. We hunger for the sexual expression that women embody while shaming them if they express it too much. It wasn't that long ago that women, (right here in the good old USA), were basically property of men, and in some parts of the world, still are. Think about what sex may have been like for your wife's grandmother. Probably not a sexy picture.

My point is, there's a lot of sexual messages our wive's, girlfriends, and lovers inherit just because they are women. With that said, I think most all women love sex just as much as us men do. We just need to patiently coax it out of our beautiful goddesses, with the emphasis on "patiently". How many women have heard some form of the "Karezza" pitch from their man and saw it as one more "man brained" scheme to get laid. Can you blame them for being skeptical. Not seeing your desire to connect through sex and intimate contact as genuine. Maybe if every man walked a mile in a woman's "sexual" shoes, so to speak, we wouldn't feel so wounded and hurt when we get rebuffed. I believe the sexual rejection or cold shoulder that so many men get is bigger than just about them. I think it's hard to really see our sexual history and its long, not so pretty roots, when we live in a time that appears to be so liberal and free sexualy.

I say, if you believe in the message Karezza speaks to, and are committed to it, keep steady, practice your end of the deal, and let her warm up to it in her own time. More action, less talk. Remember, women love sex just as much as men do, just not the sex that's been on the menu for a long time. You're offering something new on the menu, even if she thinks it's the same old fare.

Yep...

The definition of insanity?? "Doing the same thing over and over (and over and over?) again and expecting different results" Women crave, well this woman does, true intimacy and physical closeness, the caring, the giving, the tenderness, the touch, the kindness and the delicious and peaceful feeling of being valued that accompanies being seen as a whole (not hole) person...

However, when the 'typical male (encounter)' goes for the boobs the butt and the crotch and that, only for the sole purpose of the eventual worshiping of their manly boner into their manly orgasm... uh, wow, go figure, huh?? (Oops, slight bit of female cynicism slipped out… sadly it still happens :) well, it just doesn't allow a woman to feel seen as a person... only body parts... and men wonder why they are rebuffed? Well, you say they wonder, but I ask you, do men really, really, wonder why (can't say as I have ever experienced that sincerely) or do they just make excuses and place blame???

It is, most certainly, more than just about 'them' (specifically) this is societies shame, child sexual abuse, rape, female genitalia mutilation, women as possessions, female body parts as advertising lures, etc...

However, when men (in general) seem to consistently, comfortably and seemingly satisfyingly, place themselves into the 'typical' well, it is truly difficult to believe their words of change... words can, and do, sound nice but in reality, in this society? they have come to mean nothing… it is not what you say, it is what you do and not just between the sheets with your beloved… it is how you treat ALL women in society… are you a help or a hindrance??

Do your everyday actions reveal your honest intentions and beliefs towards women, not only the ones in your life… your partner/wife, mother, sister, grandmother, daughter, associates… but the women you pass in the streets, sit next to in restaurants, etc. Do you ogle the ads that portray women as sexual objects and think/expect that ‘ogling’ will not play out with your beloved… believe me, it does… it shows, it comes out, and it plays a very definite part in how the respect you may claim to have is displayed in your world…

It is one thing to use words to say you support an idea, it is another entirely to use actions to actually support it, every day, in every way… THIS translates… THIS is felt by the women in your world… THIS is where you will be believed. How delicious it would be to experience men, and relationships with men, on THIS level.

Major Reality Check Required

Wow, if you really believe “…the 'typical male (encounter)' goes for the boobs the butt and the crotch and that, only for the sole purpose of the eventual worshiping of their manly boner into their manly orgasm...” you may wish to reassess how you interact with men. Short of a street hooker, I can’t think of any women that would say that is their “typical male (encounter)”. What you are guilty of is total and complete gender bias. The exact thing that should be a total anathema to you, the very thing of which you are accusing men.

Next you list “…societies shame, child sexual abuse, rape, female genitalia mutilation, women as possessions, female body parts as advertising lures, etc...” I really wonder what the et cetera is, you listed a mouthful as it is. Obviously child sexual abuse and rape are both felonies and terrible crimes; now here comes the but, they are a minuscule percentage of crimes. If we take forcible rape that only occurs to a fraction of a percent of the population. “Female genitalia (sic) mutilation”, really in the United States? Almost all female genital mutilation occurs in Africa and the Middle East. In the United States it is over 50% of the men who have their genitals mutilated by circumcision. As for using women as “advertising lures”, ever see a good looking shirtless man in an ad.

I am not going to go line by line rebutting your fallacious arguments. You are just making crazy accusations. Obviously you have a problem with men, maybe one just dumped you. What worries me is that you represent a growing trend of women who feel it necessary to attack men in order to build their selves up. True well-adjusted women do not need to bash anyone to feel adequate. You are simply unhappy and scapegoating men. You will never be happy or find that relationship that you crave until you can accept yourself as you are and develop a better attitude. Here is to hoping you do both.

Body Parts and Honest Intentions

I am totally fascinated by my Izzy's breasts. When she reveals them to me, I cannot take my eyes off of them. I tell her, "It's nice to see your breasts" or "It's such a treat to see your breasts move". I want to be clear. It is confusing to be attracted to a woman while neither her nor I am sure if it's lust or love. So I speak clearly my truth. To avoid asking stupid questions, I don't look at her so much. These 30 days I frequently turn away when she is naked.
There is the curve of shoulder and hip under the sheet that is truly lovely. And the darker flesh of shoulder and back in contrast to the white sheet is also a delight....and so much more, so many body parts.
And there are my body parts too. There is Bullock Prick who is often confused if he needs to pee or fuck, either will satisfy. And Prince Priapus who does indeed like to be worshiped, stroked and admired. Lingam is not so familiar to me. The Golden Rod of Light, Creation, and Healing. Lovely soul I'm sure, but like most gods, a mystery.
Be nice to each other

Izzy's Eyes

They are green and yellow/gold with flares of red about the dark pupils
She no longer moves with the grace of her youth, but I remember
When I am lost in the pleasure of these things. When these aspects of her consume my attention, am I disrespectful?

indeed

I used to enjoy sitting back when I wake up and thinking of my wife, fantasizing. It was non sexual really, more of a Karezza type fantasy. Or Oxytocin type -- no sex was involved.

But, I have found that the less I mentally fantasize and dwell on my wife, the better when it comes to actually having great sex and a great time.  At this point I treat thinking of her like I treat thinking of a porn fantasy. I find it WAY better this way.

When we're together and we have sex, that's when I feel incredible feelings. Pleasure that I cannot describe. And I have great erections and sex for as long as she will go along with.

But if I fantasize, even the Karezza type fantasy, I am more likely to come, my erections turn to shit, and I'm feeling off and weird.

I realized this very solidly over the last year. Amazing how we continue to learn.

Great to hear, emerson!

Great to hear, emerson! Thanks for the practical tips on to improve things, e.g., for me to quit fantasizing about sex with my wife. Your experience accords perfectly with my own experience.

Fantasy or appreciation

Isn't what AC is describing more like appreciation than fantasy? Lusty appreciation, maybe, but rooted in the present rather than anticipating a hoped for future.

Without such appreciation, on my side, I'm not sure sex would ever cross my mind, other than as an abstraction.

it's just the effects aren't good

If you want to have long extended intercourse, I find that you don't want to "fantasize" or think about your partner this way. The less thinking the better. Appreciation of her in person is a different matter. I'm talking about when she isn't there, or when she's asleep and you're "thinking" of her...that seems to lead to more ejaculations.

When she isn't there

You're probably right, though I haven't made any erection or ejaculation connections myself. It does seem like wasted energy, expending an erotic charge on a fantasy figure rather than saving it up for the real person.

It's always tempting, though, when the real person is absent or otherwise unavailable.

Slippery Slope

For sure. It is present but can jack me up. I think it's important for Izzy to know the nature of my interest. I am turning away from such appreciation more and more. Haven't had intercourse in so long I have no idea if ejaculating is an issue.

Changes

There's an adult picture book called 'The Two Step: The dance towards intimacy', which illustrates how there always seems to be a Pursuer and a Pursued in relationships. When the Pursuer tires of pursuing (but seldom 'catching') the Pursued, they stop, only to find they are now being pursued themselves.

I've certainly noticed that pattern in my marriage, over the years.

John Gray

has made significant contributions to the discussion of relationships. The Two Step is excellent. Important is to find the way of not pursuing without rancor. Izzy hasn't turned yet.

not spam

Since I don't like to encourage spammers, I waited a few hours to see if Marnia would delete this post. Since she hasn't deleted it, I followed the link. It doesn't seem to be spam. I saw four ads on the page, but they were about cars.

I found it mildly interesting and I got a couple of laughs while reading it. I wonder what Hotspring and some of the other women around here would think about it.

Here are a few paragraphs that give a flavor about what the site is about:

"I don’t want a culture that says that a woman exposing her breasts is degrading. That’s white middle-class bullshit. Men are fascinated by women’s sexuality. That’s why they pay prostitutes. The feminist analysis of prostitution says that men are using money as power over women. I’d say yes, that’s all that men have. The money is a confession of weakness. They have to buy women’s attention. It’s not a sign of power; it’s a sign of weakness."

"Naked woman is fantastic. Men in strip clubs are completely dazzled. The only time the men feel remotely superior is when they’re young, 19 or 20 years old, and in a pack. They’ll come in very giddy, drink a lot, and try to get their spirits up. Even then, if there are six of them, one woman coming over to them totally throws them off. My theory is that beautiful woman rules the universe. Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct was a great example of woman’s power. Shows a little body, and it turns the men to jelly."

"The idea that exposure of nudity is degrading to women is absolutely nonsense. It’s one of the biggest lies of the feminist establishment. If they would just open their eyes and visit these strip clubs, they’ll find the exact opposite of what they’ve been complaining about. The more a woman takes off her clothes, the more power she has."

There is a link to another page, apparently by the same author, espousing women dressing sexily. Sample:

"Men will respond to that beautiful aura coming from a woman. Doesn't the way we present ourselves on the outside reflect how we feel about ourselves on the inside? Psychological studies have shown that a person's attire reflects how that person views themselves. This goes for both men and women. The person who takes pride in their outward appearance is demonstrating how they view themselves on the inside."

"The feminist philosophy that tells women that they can ignore their outward appearance and tells them that they should not try to look beautiful because that panders to the patriarchy, is not good, in my opinion."

"The feminists that tell women that outward beauty is not important are unknowingly in bed with the extremist Islamic system that fears the sexuality of women. Why do they fear it? Because the sexuality of women renders the male gender gentle and stirs the sensitive nature of man. This empowers the female."

It's a point of view

and not spam. I too think naked women can be beautiful, and it saddens me that such images are now triggers for porn use.

However, prostitutes are being used for a lot of other reasons than to worship the beauty of women, and trafficking is becoming a huge problem. Young girls are apparently a frighteningly profitable "investment' today. Porn users also like to try out the kinky/aggressive stuff they've escalated to from overdoing the porn. So the situation isn't as pure and inspiring as this link suggests.

lockdown

When a woman is freed from lockdown - lookout - she'll want it everyday! I'm living proof! When the priestess wife goes without for more than two days, she really misses the intimacy. It takes investment of time and patience to communicate to her that men can serve and not have to be hungry for release. What you receive is incredible.

zero sex drive

My wife has zero drive. But we're still working on it. And we have sex almost every day. It is wonderful. She enjoys it a lot, even if it isn't the same pleasure as it is for me. It's the best thing to ever have happened to me.

over an hour session...

Wanted to thank everyone for the great advice and support. I've stuck with nofap and keeping the bonding non-sexual. Finally, last night we tried karezza for the first time and it was amazing! I could not believe when I looked at the clock and it had been over an hour! Also, I was surprised that I didn't feel the need to orgasm and loved holding her afterwards, feeling a warmth and comfort just being with her. My wife did want to orgasm though, which I was perfectly fine with. I felt so in control the entire time she came and was able to enjoy every moment focussing on her, which made it so special. I felt so energized this morning, what an awesome life experience.

Knowing that karezza is on the menu will make the 90 day no-fap much more enjoyable for us both I think. I am hooked, it's just simply better.

Excellent!

So happy to hear your good news.

Observe carefully over the next two weeks. Some women are more adversely affected by climax than they realize over the days following. Hopefully, your wife is not one. Smile