♥ Okay, a little frustrated

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I arrived home from a business trip and tonight we cuddled.

After awhile, Sparkles asked if I wanted to penetrate. I said, did she want me to. She said, "you don't understand, I don't have the drive you have."

I said, I didn't want to do that if she didn't want to, and why was she asking if I wanted to.

"Because you want to"

"No, I don't want intercourse with you unless you want it," I said. "I want to be welcomed in."

"You don't understand. I don't have the powerful drive you do."

"I understand that. I didn't ask to go inside you. Let's just be here, present, and have fun and not worry about any future thing. Let's just see what happens."

She said, "you get worked up."

"I get aroused when we cuddle. That doesn't mean I am asking for sex from you. It's just what my body does. I don't want to put my penis in unless you want me to. I'm happy cuddling."

"You don't understand. I don't have the powerful drive you do."

And she complained that this all is complicated. "I was happy before," she reminded me. "Why aren't you interested in cumming like you used to? I don't necessarily feel the way you do."

And she said, "sometimes in the morning I don't want to cuddle. I just want to get up and get my tea."

I admit I am frustrated. One thing going on here, is that Marnia had warned me of "ripples" and we are within the say 14 or 15 day window since her last orgasm. I don't know if that has anything remotely to do with this. Or this just has to be patiently discovered. It's a discovery process. We're experimenting. I am hoping that she picks up the types of feelings I have. I am concerned if she doesn't. But she might not.



i disbelieved it but now...

I think you are right. This is day 14 or so and it is like a switch. I have seen this in the past but never put the cause and effect together. I think you are completely dead on right and that this is fallout from the O about 14 days ago. She had to take a pill to get to sleep and didn't know why she couldn't sleep for instance. Wow. I'm just letting things ride and treating this like someone who doesn't quite know what she is saying or doing, if that makes sense. Just ride things out and they'll be fine in a day or two I'll bet.


I think your attitude is

I think your attitude is very strong and healthy. You have general knowledge she perhaps, does not understand yet, or maybe never will. That is okay. Your patience and resolve is very good. Without this awareness we are simply slaves to our chemical self.

Stay the Course.

My own experience....

Yeah, sounds like something has been lost in translation! It may be helpful to ask what Sparkles is trying to say in the statement she used? It sounds like the statement was important to her, and perhaps the nearest she could come to expressing her feelings about it?
I might be way off the mark with this, forgive me if Iam. Its just a perspective from my own experience.
In the past I would feel pressured into having sex.
It would make me shut down from the person, resent him and blame him for wanting sex too often, for example. Really I didnt have a language for expressing or having my sexual needs met, so I wasn't able to explain myself clearly and would instead feel confused, un listened to, or overpowered.

In the past Ive needed to completely say no, step back, feel like I have some power again in the sexual relationship and reclaim my body. This hasnt been the end of a relationship, it has been the beginning of a new one with the same person.

This is an assumption, but If sparkles has felt like she hasnt had control sexually with you in the past, it may take a while to come to the surface for healing. If so, I would allow all the space you can while expressing your support and unconditional Love.
Its easy to say that these are my needs, but harder to ask another, what are yours?
For me, once I felt that I had a say again, or an equal role sexually, I could submit, be a women, be vulnerable and not feel pressured. Instead of feeling pursued, I could approach too.
Sorry if Im totally wrong, I hope in anycase that Sparkles will join you on a journey into further intimacy and connecting!

Sparkles hates change

and note that I turned her down for sex last night.

She really just doesn't like things to be different. I think the reasons are as follows in this case:

1. Any change is discomfiting because it introduces uncertainty.

2. I won't be "cum and done" and that could mean I place increasing demands on her sexually because I am no longer "used up" in 5 or 15 minutes.

3. I will be needy and demanding all the time because I won't be satiated from orgasm.

4. I am already needy and demanding in reaching an agreement to cuddle in the morning and at night. I did stop being high pressure the rest of the time, but still...

And I think Marnia is totally right. Now that I see how this has played out post-O for her (I haven't had an O in at least a month probably 6 weeks) I do think this is "day 14" behavior. It's eerily familiar from the past and I'll bet if I kept a journal I'd see this pattern every time.

I don't think I'll address what she said as it will pass. It's meaningless. Physical affection and cuddling will prevail and after this rocky few days I think there will be a new level for our relationship. I just have to be patient and now I am a lot more patient.

Thank you!

Hello emerson

Its sounds like you already know what the problem is, and the experience Ive shared with you is not applicable to your situation. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I dont always get things right. I prefer instead to explore possibilities. Im sure you will both find ways through together.

I have absolutely no

I have absolutely no experience with Kerezza and i have no idea how your woman used to react, but i really think that a woman need to see how much you desire her to get aroused. I think that women really like to surrender to the desire of a man. Sometimes , they even gently reject you, and want you to persist to feel how your desire is strong.

Maybe i'm wrong, but it's possible that she wanted to hear "i want you so much" and that asking her the question back turned her off.

Is that really true? I

Is that really true? I realize it seems that way sometimes. Is it a healthy approach to needs and insecurities? Having been on the other side to some extent rejection is real even though it might not be permanent.

If only we could edit after

If only we could edit after a reply has been posted and the indentation spacing wasn't sometimes confusing. I needed to quote yet again.

[quote=Stick]I have absolutely no experience with Kerezza and i have no idea how your woman used to react, but i really think that a woman need to see how much you desire her to get aroused. I think that women really like to surrender to the desire of a man. Sometimes , they even gently reject you, and want you to persist to feel how your desire is strong.

Maybe i'm wrong, but it's possible that she wanted to hear "i want you so much" and that asking her the question back turned her off.[/quote]

The "no means no" versus "no sometimes is yes in disguise" debate was what I was questioning. No is a need. Sometimes that need reflects uncertainty, insecurity, etc. and it happens to be that a reassuring statement of affection fills the need and the no dissipates. However, from a no alone, one knows only that there is a need. Take what one can doesn't seem like a good approach to me. People emotionally hurt easily from that even if nothing physical happens. I've been there. It's not a male/female issue as often portrayed in society. It's about being insensitive in the moment to the vulnerability of a no.

Trying to understand her need seems like the right approach. Taking it to the level of considering her orgasm fallout is good because maybe she doesn't know her own need at the moment. Her need maybe loving space.

I agree

It's important to know when you should not insist. And it needs some sensitivity.
What i was meaning is that she maybe prefer to hear that you want her. Telling her "it's up to you" when talking about love making is not really arousing for her. But it's show that you are interested in what she feels, and that's good.
It hard to tell because it's a transcription of what she said, but didn't felt like she was really saying no at the start. Only emerson can judge it :)

In my own experience

In my own experience, telling a man (or rationalizing to myself) that "men are different" when it comes to sexual desire meant I had closed off my own sexuality and did *not* want to reopen it.

It has taken a lot of exploration and self-discovery to reclaim that side of myself~~I'm still a work in progress, but it can be done! Women instinctively *know* it's a denial of our femininity, but sometimes we don't know how to get it back.

I think the biggest "ah ha" moment for me was when I realized the *why* behind making love~~the exchange of energy and how man's energy needs to go somewhere (and how a woman can absorb the yang and in turn, be energized, while calming the man with her yin energy). To feel that balance is a remarkable and wonderful thing! I consider it vital to my mental and physical health.


~A heart that is open to appreciate every blessing should always be bigger than the eyes that see what is missing. ~Rumi

Yes, that is true. The

Yes, that is true. The desire is like a charge, a literal electromagnetic charge. But the point is that the charge is only dynamic if it is held, not discharged. A man who can stay present in his desire rather than compulsively discharge it is the most attractive thing. Desirous men are a dime a dozen. A man who can direct his charge lovingly and hold it in the vulnerability of love is rare. I do feel that I need to feel my man's desire to receive it. But it can't be overwhelming desire. It has to be conscious and loving. Nothing else will do. Love has to back it all. If it isn't a loving charge, the woman might try to make the man discharge it.

Do you mean desire in

Do you mean desire in general or specifically during sex?

Do you see love as its own polarity within the magnetically "hard" men that can hold their magnetism or something else?

Well, well, Racheal, what a

Well, well, Racheal, what a pleasure to have your feminine input, its been a while. I love what you say, so true. You are so poetic in your expression. How did you get SO wise on this subject? I want to cut and paste what you've said and send it to a couple that I am working with that needs to hear just this. Do you mind?

From our journey I observe similar things in my wife. Women have just as much of a sexual appetite as men do as I have seen the tranformation in my own partner. It makes no sense that men would have all the sexual desire and the woman have none. Man and woman are opposite sides of the same coin, opposite pole, and opposite poles attract. If I wasnt practicing non-orgasmic love making these day there would be no way I could keep up with my wife.

What I do understand is that the masculine nature of conventional sex is oriented to the man's approach and does not hold much space for the feminine expression. Just look at the world around us to see how the masculine still dominates in so many ways. Womens feminine energy being of a yeilding nature ends up "reacting" instead of "interacting" with masculine sexual energy. Enough of this reacting and the feminine shuts down. Karezza style love making holds the space needed for a woman begin to thaw and feel her own sexual flow. A woman's soul and spirit does not thrive in goal oriented conventional sex, they yearn for something deeper, something more expansive.

I'm not saying that some women dont do fine with conventional sex, obviously some do and really enjoy themselves, especially when they are younger. But take a close look at the landscape of many long term relationships and very, very few women are fully engaged sexually.

So Emerson, as far as your wifes attitude goes, do you realize what you are asking from her? To go back inside and reopen that which is shut down and possibly painful? Your patience is need now more that ever. Be like a rock for her, if you can. In this case, I believe its a lot deeper than just an adversion to change. Your steadiness will give her the room to explore shakey ground. I completely sympathize with not wanting to engage sexually when you wife is not into it. I doubt I would either in your situation.

I think the orgasm cycle only adds to the deeper issue. If you can stay steady during this time then I believe when she comes out of the cycle there can be more movement and openess. See if you can look at it like your holding the space for the universal feminine, for the healing of women's collective spirit. Your wife being one part of the whole, a part of your wounded feminine as well. I beleve at this time in our planets history, its for us men to take the first step. If she rails against the direction youve discovered though karezza, simply let her. Feel your clarity and hold steady to it. If you know this is the best avenue for you and your wife's healing then stay the course, espcially when it hard. This is the gift of the masculine, the long view and the capacity to keep focused. I know you want her love and expression, you'll get it. Its just going to take more time.

Keep sharing with us here at this wonderful site. I dont mind hearing your frustrations, bitch all you want. Get it out here, find your strength here. Its probably going to be a rocky road for a bit. Meaningful change is rarely a cake walk. Where the heck did the expression, "cake walk" com from anyway?

Of course!

You can use anything I've written, Darryl~~love what you said, too, and I think you have such a great understanding of how women become closed off in the first place.

I do think there are people who are put on this earth for one purpose~~to teach others~~and I try to be a good student! (in answer to your question about how I became so wise, lol)


~A heart that is open to appreciate every blessing should always be bigger than the eyes that see what is missing. ~Rumi

dunno about a cakewalk

but this ain't one LOL.

Thanks so much for your response, Darryl. It means a lot to me. You have really been incredibly helpful to me and inspiring in this journey that started before I found this site but is a lot richer now. I do feel that I am in a good space for this and doing the right thing for my wife and me. I will hold steady and be loving and giving and I'll be patient.

I really appreciate your encouragement also as I don't mean to be whiny but it is extremely helpful to present what's going on here.

receptors under construction

I know from my own experience with a woman, it takes a few weeks to get those love hormone receptors established in her brain before she begins to feel that she really wants to hold you inside her. Like Darryl said, women do have desire, they just don't have the program to be verbal about it. Woman is subtle and they like being honored, attended to. Tell her she's beautiful and give her lots of hugs when you are passing by. A foot rub, now and then, a cup of tea and an organic chocolate bar next to her bed... I find these things communicate to a woman more than words. She'll invite you in and then don't question if she wants to do it next time. The more non-sexual affection she receives, the more her brain will rewire. Oxytocin isn't addictive, but it is desirable!