How can a woman convince a man "I DON'T WANT AN ORGASM !"?

Submitted by CuriousFellow on
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Here are some arguments that I think would work for someone like me:

"Men love orgasms so much (or think they do) that it may be hard for you to imagine that some women don't care about having orgasms, or that some women might actually DISLIKE orgasms."

"Do you like to continue vigorously pumping away after you have your orgasm? [In my - CF's - case, I don't. It feels unpleasant, an overstimulated feeling like being tickled.] Maybe that "overstimulated" feeling is like how I feel when you try to give me an orgasm. I don't like being pounded. I really don't much care for the feeling of orgasm itself, either. I'd much rather you just be gentle with me. I like the feeling of you inside me, and the feeling of gentle pumping. I also like it when you lie still and just cuddle (as long as I'm not getting crushed by your weight). I like kissing and touching, etc. I don't want or need to have an orgasm. Please don't try to give me one."

"You know how a woman can be an angel for most of the month, and then mysteriously turn into an evil witch (or another word that rhymes with "witch") a few days before her period? That's what hormones can do to women's brains. That's what orgasms do to me. They release chemicals that poison my brain and, over the course of the day after the orgasm, turn me into the Wicked Witch of the West. Trust me, you won't want to be anywhere near me if that happens! I won't want to be anywhere near me if that happens! And I'll blame it all on you. Don't say I didn't warn you. So, don't worry about giving me orgasms. I DON'T WANT THEM!!!"

If all else fails, wear a T-shirt with "What part of 'I DON'T WANT AN ORGASM' don't you understand?" while recovering from the hangover. Smile

Here are some links to related material:

Persephone's experience: Hold the orgasm, please, Day 4 Tsunami recovery, and Hangover
Mitsiky's experience: Things fall apart
Mitsiky's Alternate perspective
Marnia recommends: The Big 'O' Isn't Orgasm

Inquiry

Big hug to you, CF, champion of OAW everywhere! (See my blog entry)
I think what might be helpful here is a deep, honest inquiry about what motivates us to have sex in the first place, and what attachment to our own or our partner's orgasm is about.
I had an experience with my ex when I felt some distress because he didn't have orgasms when we made love, but it wasn't because I felt inadequate. It was because I knew he was masturbating daily and there were intimacy issues. For him, on the other hand, my orgasm was his "duty"; like S, if he didn't bring me to orgasm, he was, in his mind, failing as a man, as a lover, as a husband, even as a provider. I could never help him understand I didn't feel like that, and experienced a lot of frustration and sadness around it. You know when someone buys you a gift they think you will like rather than something you really will like? If I want to bring joy into someone's life, if I want to please them, just for the sheer joy of bringing them joy, I have to pay attention. I have to know who they are well enough to gift them with what makes them happy, and it might be something I don't care for myself, it might even be something I don't understand. For instance, when my first husband and I were married, I was doing a lot of candle meditations. For my birthday one year, he bought me a beautiful carved brass candle holder. It probably didn't cost much, but I loved it and used it every day. I carried it around with me for many, many years after we split up because it reminded me that he knew me, intimately. He paid attention to what was important and valuable to me. He honored my spiritual journey, and celebrated it with me with his gift.
The orgasm thing, for me, is like that. If my partner is truly interested in connection with me, in a deep intimacy with me, he will have to be willing to understand that making love is an act of spiritual and emotional connection for me. It takes a little more attention, willingness and finesse, it is a much more artful adventure than bringing me to orgasm.
Like I have said before, I'm much more interested in the heart than the hard-on. Perhaps you guys have no idea how attractive your hearts are to us.... Or, maybe you do and it scares the hell out of you. It's scary for us, too; intimacy, especially in America, is not something many of us have much education about.
But, speaking from my life experiences, and most especially from my experience this past week, that's where my heart lies. That's the journey I am on.
Today, I'm a "just say no to the 'Big O'" girl, unless that Big O is oxytocin.

Persephone

This misses something

Although your thoughts are good, they're based on the assumption that men want women to orgasm because they either feel obligated to or are wanting to please their partners.

In spite of knowing full well that I didn't want an O, and that it would make me cranky, J continued to ask me to have one. (When I asked, "why?" he had no answer.) I think it's because it's a dopamine jolt for HIM to watch me get off, especially if he got me there. It's not hard to imagine because I feel the same way about his O. It's intrinsically rewarding to watch, and a power trip as well You can set those things aside in your mind, but you can't really eliminate the pull of them altogether.

Your brain contains mirror neurons, whose function is to automatically simulate in your own brain the brain state of the person you are interacting with (this is what enables empathy). That's why I think that if you watch your partner O, or possibly even watch one in a porn movie, you might as well mark it on a calendar as though you had the O yourself.

Of course

you are right, people enjoy each other's orgasms. Why else would J ask you to have orgasms, other than for his own enjoyment? I enjoyed my wife's occasional "twitches" (I don't know if they were actual orgasms, although she called them orgasms), and she sometimes enjoyed my orgasms.

It would be very unfair if I made accusations about specific cases, so let me just SPECULATE in a very general way that perhaps when a guy complains that he feels "inadequate" if he doesn't give a woman an orgasm, that he is perhaps trying to cover up his real motivation - selfishly wanting to enjoy his partner's orgasm.

In any such cases, where the guy wants to enjoy the woman's orgasm and the woman doesn't want one, the Wicked Witch of the West warning (at the beginning of this thread) might be sufficient to convince the guy that maybe "inadequacy" is a good thing. Smile

I understand what you are saying, Mitsiky, about the mirror neurons, and that's an interesting speculation about a partner's orgasm having a similar effect to having an orgasm oneself. That effect might be stronger or weaker depending on how well developed your mirror neurons are. Perhaps you have well developed mirror neurons and a strong sense of empathy and connection with your partner, so his orgasms have the same effect as if you had them. Perhaps I have less well developed mirror neurons, and my wife's orgasm, were she to have one, might not have as much effect on me.

Orgasm substitute

I knew there was one more thing I wanted to say...

If you are being pressured to have an orgasm, I suggest: find out exactly what your partner likes about your orgasms. Maybe he (or she) would not mind if you just "faked" the orgasm - not with intent to deceive, but just to create some of the same sensations you would create for your partner if you had an orgasm.

For example, my wife rarely, if ever, had orgasms, but if I asked, she would contract her vaginal muscles and sometimes tense her body and roll her hips. It didn't feel exactly like those twitches that she called orgasms, but it was quite acceptable to me as a substitute.

it's a compromise

and compromise can be a good thing, if it satisfies both parties.

Let's say a couple has been practicing regular sex with the woman having orgasms. Now the woman decides she doesn't want orgasms any more. The possibilities are:

1. The woman just stops having orgasms. The man misses them and feels resentful if she refuses to have them any more.
2. The woman stops but lets herself be talked into having them some more, and she feels resentful.
3. After some discussion, the couple finds the compromise that is acceptable to both parties. Ta-da!

Weren't you an attorney, once upon a time? I would think you'd value compromises that are acceptable to all parties. Smile

I'm with Marnia

It might *sound* good, but this is essentially a no-win compromise. Both partners are sabotaging any level of intimacy they might have had by introducing an element of intentional deceit. Moreover, the faked orgasm will never be quite satisfactory for the other party, and will most likely be an absolute chore for whoever has to do it, which will probably develop into a long-term resentment causing them to avoid all lovemaking. Finally, it's an absolute detour which won't bring anyone any closer to an authentic experience of bonding-based sex.

What I'm missing in these genuinely thoughtful

discussions is the recognition that *both* people have to be avoid *both* people's orgasms for there to be any sense of stability in this practice. It just plain doesn't work when two lovers have completely different agendas...one biology's...one equilibrium. This is a joint effort, and one person's agenda and energy and neurochemical state influences the other's.

In this situation, al-anon and new age lore about "everyone only has to worry about himself, herself" is just plain misleading. It matters what your lover is doing and thinking with his/her *own* sexual energy, too.

So the real challenge is to motivate a joint change in behavior, not just change someone's intentions toward your orgasm.

How do you get around that challenge, CF? Anyone else?

Power, obligation, surrender

I agree with you, Mitsiky, that experiencing someone else’s orgasm is a powerful turn on, but, especially after this past week, I know for me it’s not going to have as big an impact on my neurochemistry as having one myself.
When I was in my twenties, much of my esteem and feelings of power in relationship were tied to my sexuality, to other’s perception or reflection of my desirability as a sexual partner. Today, I become physically attracted to someone because of who they are, rather than what they look like or what kind of sexual experience I might have with them, and I guess that’s where I was speaking from. I have been moved by my recent experience to look at the dynamics of power and surrender around sex, and how I want to negotiate those things in the future. It’s an intimate thing to bring someone to orgasm. Right now, I find I am more captivated by the intimacy of being given permission to experience such a moment of surrender with someone. Even more captivating is the intimacy of experiencing my and my partner’s willingness to surrender to all the subtle spiritual and emotional “orgasms” that are possible when the neurochemical orgasm is avoided. I didn't have a chance to explore this with my recent partner for the reasons Marnia touches on above; even if I had been able to convince him I didn't want to have an orgasm, he was not willing to have sex without orgasm. So, I learned a lot, but understand I only have the outline of the picture, and much, much more to explore.

Persephone

Actually, Persephone

Maybe, because of the time delay involved, you have no way of knowing for sure *whose* orgasm caused your problems. At the least, you decided to have one of your own the day after his, right? Is there a connection there, perhaps?

Food for thought...

Food for thought, Ms. M. Actually, he had two before I had mine, and another immediately after mine....
Hmmm....
I may or may not have mentioned this, but I was definitely aware that a part of my decision to have an orgasm was because it was important to him. The biggest part of it, though, was because I wanted to see what happened. What the hell was I thinking??? :)
Persephone

No wonder

the poor guy is cranky, and stomping off in a huff. You drained him!

And you were thinking what we all think..."any rationalization in a storm." Wink

Accountable

Guilty as charged. The question arises about how to navigate these perilous waters, when you know that the other person isn't going to respond? I was encouraged by the kinds of touching we were doing in and out of bed, and while I knew I had a choice about whether or not I had an orgasm, I didn't feel at liberty to be the "orgasm police" for him.
I went into it knowing that I was committed to learning what would happen with me, even if it was completely wretched and sucky, which, as you all know, it was.
It's a very interesting dance to learn....and hindsight never needs correction Wink
Persephone

Of course,

we all have the freedom to learn however we choose. But many such bruises have persuaded me that it's worth considering taking the time to allow a partner to *educate* himself slowly, while confining courtship to nurturing bonding behaviors.

Being the orgasm police *never* works, but being the inspiring source of reading material sometimes does...especially if you're not pouring lighter fluid on the situation with sensual over-stimulation...and ALSO not *depriving* your friend of nurturing touch. It's a narrow gate, but not impassable. The key is a couple weeks of gentle, generous touch...and a solid education...which period of time includes actual feelings of wellbeing produced...wonder of wonders...withOUT orgasm. That way the person gets a taste of the power of bonding behaviors, even before orgasm is an option. Hence the Exchanges....

Obviously, masturbation solo during that time can slow progress, but such orgasms don't seem to get projected onto YOU as surely as orgasms directly involving you. In any case, the education...and the soothing bonding behaviors can make masturbation less imperative.

Maybe this mass email belongs in this thread...

Whatever you give a woman, she's going to multiply.

If you give her your seed, she'll give you a baby.

If you give her a house, she'll give you a home.

If you give her groceries, she'll give you a meal.

If you give her a smile, she'll give you her heart.

She multiplies and enlarges what is given to her.

So - if you give her any crap,
you will receive a ton of sh*t.

Faking

I'm with the Divine Miss M; no lying.
Some of the biggest trouble I've ever gotten myself into in my life has been because I thought I had to be someone different than I was to make someone else comfortable.
Sex and intimacy are weird enough---as we can all attest to----without adding deception to the mix. I'm all about compromise, but not if it involves deception.
Persephone

I *wish*

there were a good way to compromise with this system...so as to *ease* someone into it. If it exists, however, I have not yet found it...in 17 years of explorations. And it's not for want of trying. Wink

It may be that in the long run, it's more efficient to get the whole awkward subject out up front. Let the resistance take its natural course, and then...if the person is still interested...try a "cold turkey" approach for three weeks. At least that's the only approach that has worked for me. At the end of that experiment, at least the person will know what you're talking about. They will have seen some of the benefits. Enough to compare the two approaches. Until then the benefits are purely theoretical, and therefore seem negotiable, or at least they seem like they can be "split" somehow. ("I'll have this much of the old way, and this much of the karezza way.")

The problem with mixing the two kinds of sex is that you don't know what you're "seeing" in your laboratory. Due to neurochemical fluctuations, you'll see some chaos and some good feelings...but due to the time lag factor, you won't know which approach caused what. And believe me, you're likely to resolve all doubts in favor of biology! So at the end of the day, you're more confused than ever...and more sure any problems in the relationship are unrelated to sex.

Remember, the benefits of karezza are not just mechanical. They come from a shift in perception. To see through those "other eyes," you need consistency for a period of time. (Remember Hotspring's recent experience.) Otherwise the perception shift simply doesn't occur...and you wonder what all the hype was about. And even if you get a glimpse...as soon as you drop into conventional sex, all the "fairy dust" blows away, and you can barely remember the amazing feelings of peace, wholeness and wellbeing...unless you have been journaling...or blogging. They seem "unreal" and "unsustainable." They can be sustained...but only with consistency.

In short, I don't think this approach is a typical "marriage negotiation" of the type you've been studying, CF. I wish Zoe were more cooperative, because your firsthand experiments would be helpful to us all.

This explanation makes more sense to me

than some of your previous explanations of why your program seems so elaborate and somewhat rigid. So, thank you, Marnia.

Not saying I'm completely abandoning some of my own ideas about this stuff. I'm sure we will continue to have discussions... Smile

Upon rereading my "Orgasm substitute" comment, I see that what I wrote was rather misleading and didn't express very well what I meant. Let me try to clarify.

Note that "faked" was in quotes, and I followed that with "not with intent to deceive...". I really meant it about not trying to deceive the other partner. In my case, for example, I would say "Squeeze me?" to ask Zoe to contract her vaginal muscles. Or I might invite it nonverbally, by squeezing my PC muscles, which she could feel and sometimes said that she liked. (And there is no way she would mistake that for my real orgasms.)

I don't see how deliberately making some of the same motions as one makes during orgasm is any different than other types of touching, rubbing, squeezing, etc. one might do during lovemaking. If partner A likes it and partner B doesn't mind doing it, hell, DO IT!!!

Now, about compromises. (From now on, for simplicity, let's talk about the case where the woman definitely wants to try karezza and the man is not yet interested.) Suppose the woman has decided she doesn't like orgasms and doesn't want any more. I would say she should bloody well stop!, regardless of what the man wants. At that point, if the man misses the woman's orgasms, she could find out exactly what the guy misses and offer some "orgasm substitutes" if she doesn't mind.

Yes, I acknowledge that "one-sided karezza" is not anywhere near as good as both partners participating. (For a couple reasons: 1. The orgasming partner is still "driving under the influence..." and 2. Mitsiky's comment about mirror neurons - the non-orgasming partner could experience a "contact high" just from association with the other partner.) But then again, one-sided karezza is probably better than no karezza. And certainly, continue to encourage the other partner to "get with Marnia's program".

I'm not (mainly) suggesting shortcuts to try to bypass the Exchanges. The way I look at it is, Marnia's program consists of this single, giant (10-foot high, nearly insurmountable) step: start the Exchanges and do them every day for three weeks. It's a rather large commitment to ask of a not-very-interested partner. I'm trying to find ways to motivate disinterested men, to get them to take that big step. To put it metaphorically, I'm trying to build a staircase to make it easier to get up on top of that 10-foot high step.