Sacred Sex in Community

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There are a few experimental communities today where overcoming the pain in sex and living the connection between sexual experience and spirituality is an important part. The experiments include learning to overcome jealousy, possessiveness.



Thanks, I've been to ZEGG

for summer camp, in 2000. I don't think overcoming jealousy solves the fundamental problem of fallout after orgasm. The women at ZEGG also told me there was an unusually high incidence of pelvic inflammatory disorder in the community. That's not a good sign.

Polyamory (a popular ZEGG point of view) is a *logical* solution, but has its own drawbacks in practice.

In any case, I'm interested in how monogamy can be achieved *authentically,* not in how we surrender to our genetic mandates for fertilization and genetic diversity in our offspring. So the mission at this site is a bit different from the ZEGG mission.

Incidentally, a lot of the older ZEGG members had tired of polyamory, and were actually in monogamous relationships when I was there. Smile

Polyamorous amory

My ex boyfriend Pete identified as polyamorous. He said it was the mode he defaulted to, though he was doing his best to be monogamous for my sake. Anyway, I got dragged along into the polyamorous community to some extent. From my perspective, the spiritual practice of it seemed very much on the surface, a kind of mask. And the truth is, I was repelled by the self-centeredness of the philosophy. My feeling about it was, how can I be happy when my actions are causing my partner to writhe in the corner over there in an agony of insecurity and abandonment? It just didn't add up. I came away with the feeling that these types of communities are good for those who want to indulge in sex and romance addictions. Healing jealousy and possessiveness in this way seems cruel and unrealistic. -G

Not only is

the abandoned partner writhing, he or she is also *censored* for having any feelings of attachment. Since feelings of attachment in genuine relationships are shown to be great for our health and psychological well-being, this turns reality upside down.

On the other hand, if one's allegiance to orgasm is primary, then polyamory offers a philosophy that justifies that allegiance.

I would sum it up this way: Polyamory resolves the mating-bonding tension that is programed into all of us in favor of mating. Karezza resolves it in favor of bonding.

Everyone has to make their own choices.

The link to

The link to doesn't work.

Maybe someone here should start a community! Prior to learning about Oneida a few days ago, I'd have thought there'd be no way enough people could be found. However, if it could be done back then, when I'd think the social mores would make it ten times harder, it ought to be down right easy today.

As for the writhing in the corner, I guess such communities don't realize that an alternative exists and just believe that the polyamorous urge will always be there in some or all people's psyche. If this is true, then logic would dictate that there should be both options--that of the conventional monogamy and that of polyamory. Either case is deficient, but both options should be available. (Or at least polyamory experimented with... though it might prove so inferior as to be abandoned by most.) Until I found this group, I thought the best a society could do was what it seems to currently be doing, which is moving toward serial monogamy as the norm.

Just out of curiosity, how many couples are there who have the same success as Marnia and her husband? Is it true that all polyamorous thoughts completely disappear?

Polyamorous Thoughts

To the last question: I (16 days without seeking an orgasm) say emphatically and enthusiastically YES. All of the rewards promised (or hinted at) through bonding sex have been realized. I no longer look at other women or porn or Victoria's Secret sex models as possible partners. I do see beautiful attractive women but can't wait to give my honey a big, loving, not seeking a fix for my habit, squeeze.
Much love and success to you all


Che, I just wanted to say that you really inspire me. I am excited for you and your new love model for 2009. I wish you the best of success, and don't fail to keep the rest of us posted!

the true light of my eyes is a pearl,
equally emptied to equally shine;
and all or what little joy in the world
seemed suddenly simple, and endlessly mine.

One of my most cherished visions

is of a community where people enjoy exploring this concept. I'm convinced that community will work a lot better when people aren't constantly trying to cope with a subconscious sense of lack from all the "great" sex they're having with themselves or others. Wink

Maybe if the book makes money, this will become a reality. *fingers crossed*

Gary and I gave a talk at a polyamory group a few years back. Half were incensed by what we had to say. Half said it made perfect sense, and confirmed most of what we shared. The relationship turn over in such groups creates various kinds of instability, and requires constant "emotional processing" that gets exhausting.


Why do you suppose the Oneida community fell apart? I can't find any evidence to support this, but I think there must have been a few too many unexpected pregnancies. Noyes had been advocating male continence as a birth control method and did not seem to know about the potency of pre-cum.


Noyes' community finally started *trying* to make babies...because the women wanted more of them.

That's when the trouble started. He wanted to match up the "best parents" to produce better babies. Unfortunately, he viewed his own aging sperm as some of the finest to be had (like any good alpha male). This, combined with the fact that he also viewed young virgins in the community as the ideal mothers ;-), caused an outrage so fierce that he was driven out of the community...and it soon collapsed.

If only he had stuck to his early principles!

I too am inspired. I guess

I too am inspired. I guess part of me had doubts that things like the valley orgasm actually existed, probably because the authors I read used rather shady logic such as how going 95% of the way to orgasm three times is mathematically almost three times better than going all the way to 100%. Such loose, manipulative thinking made me doubt everything else they said, but you guys are different. I can sense your sincerity and honesty. It must really happen!

Wow, half of a polyamory group understood and confirmed? How did that happen? I'd think an average person, let alone a person in a polyamory group would be resistant to the idea of not having an orgasm. Even I was, despite my interest in sexual alchemy, but in my case it was probably because of my doubts. I guess I just thought that it'd always be a matter of will power, kinda like the withdrawal method of birth control.

Well, I hope the community happens! Oneida II. Kinda like Walden II. Wink

I guess some of the polys

had had enough experience to realize that sexual satiety *can* cause emotional distance between lovers. And that generous affection that is not goal-oriented bears worthwhile fruit.

I'm not claiming that any of them necessarily intended to change their ways. They were just acknowledging the reality of what we were saying...while the other half were still insisting that more and better orgasms were the cure to all ills. Wink


I'm fascinated by this discussion, as I have two (male) friends who are committed to polyamory as a way of life. From my view, their love lives are very troubled and dramatic--but they defend it vigorously. I also see clients with this view--have had two cases, and one partner is always flooded with issues around jealousy, etc. I'm supposed to be unbiased in my work, but I find that I really have strong feelings against it, in favor of bonding and attachment. I think reading this site more carefully is helping me to see that this is a question of how relationships are evolving. I think there is also so much in the way of cultural damage that interferes with our bonding processes, and I suspect many of us are subject to that damage. So I see that there's a biological imperative to spread seed, and an equally strong imperative to bond, nurture and support one another--and what this site is doing is reconciling these two urges. I believe monogamy and commitment, regardless of whether our chemicals are in balance or not, can and does provide a stable base of support and growth that frees us up for greater creative activity and spiritual work--it helps us dismantle our reactive triggers, one by one. Through positive attachment, our brains heal and re-wire themselves, and we become less triggered and defensive. The great loneliness in our culture of self-seeking pleasure is at best tragic, and distracts us from building strong relationship, culture, and society. I'm working hard to find ways to clarify these ideas and present them to those who disagree--it's so difficult for me to remain unbiased, and yet, in the work I do, I am supposed to!!! So, I really appreciate how these discussions are helping me reconcile these differences, to promote a positive view of monogamy and sexuality.

I think you're right, Bay

The polys forget that we're pair-bonding mammals (designed to get soothing neurochemical rewards from bonding)...even though we also possess a genetic program that tends to push us toward habituation and new love interests.

I'm fascinated by the research that shows that monogamous voles react more to addictive substances than promiscuous ones. It seems that we pair-bonders have more sensitive reward circuitry on average. This works fine if we find mates with ease, right from the start. But if we don't, we're very vulnerable in terms of seeking other forms of stimulation for that reward circuitry. Pair-bonders also show more signs of depression upon loss of a mate...again, we're vulnerable. We don't do all that well with pure promiscuity, it seems.

The polys try to get their rewards from a combo of "honeymoon neurochemistry" (new partners) and affectionate group contact. In theory, it sounds good. But I, too, observe a lot of exhausting drama in poly love lives. Even those with big, creative ideas seem to have a lot of trouble manifesting them - because of this constant turmoil. This is a great loss to the world.

I think it's no accident that I worked on my first book for 12 years, but couldn't publish it until Gary and I teamed up with the emphasis on bonding behaviors (and the stability they promote) in our relationship.

Another important factor that causes folks to turn toward other methods of stimulating rewarding feelings (porn, alcohol, etc.) may be the fact that so many mothers work, and families are smaller. (There's an increase in CSA, too.) People just don't get that early attachment experience with trusted adults as most did with a parent at home full-time. This may set up their brain chemistry in a way that makes them look anywhere but for bonding behaviors when they want to "feel better." Gary's mother worked, and he lost his dad at 11. He says he swears his brain grew new receptors for oxytocin when we started doing the Exchanges in the book. Wink

In other words, maybe some of us have to re-train to discover the value of bonding behaviors, versus the forced/dopamine highs, when we need comforting.

Future of the sex drive...

I've been slogging through the Cassiopaean Transcripts where it is suggested that in the near future human males will lose much of their sex drive. Shocking idea, but it seems that the sex drive is the main problem behind the aggression in our world (that and our self-serving orientation). Failing sexuality, which is a great motivator, males and females will have to find new reasons to connect, as well as ways to shift from serving self to serving others. What would that look like? Since I've been celibate for what seems like aeons (has only been months), I'm more willing to acknowledge that sex has not necessarily been a positive influence in my life, but was my only recourse to contact with males.

By celibacy I mean no sex with anyone, not even myself. I've also given up alcohol and caffeine. At first I missed the highs, but soon got into the habit of remembering the deeply distressing lows, and decided that the math showed it wasn't worth it. It would be interesting if I had a record of my brain patterns, before and after. I am not at all inclined to fall into despair, as I had before on a regular basis, and I have more capacity to focus and pursue activities that promise reward in the long term. Finding a mate seems less important than finding like-minded companions, and I am more patient with myself, and open to new experiences, and this is just the beginning...

I've never heard of those

I've never heard of those transcripts but I'm interested in them. I've found myself watching a number of films recently (Slumdog Millionaire, Grand Torino), where I've thought to myself, "Oh great, another film about how testosterone is running and ruining the world." I try not to say that out loud too much around my sweetheart, because there are many things about maleness and male energy and therefore testosterone that I love. But I can't help but thing we're doomed if its running the show in the violent fashion it has for so long. One would hope women won't have to take to the drastic measures that some women in Papau New Guinea took when they got so fed up with men going to war they decided the only solution was to kill all male babies. A drastic measure for a bit of influence in the matter!

I know what you mean when going without sex or masturbation for a few months feels like aeons.

Glad to have you posting again!

Hi hotspring-for some work

Hi hotspring-

for some epigenetic work on how 'excess' testosterone is messing with the world then check out a book called 'Left in the Dark' by G.Gynn and T.Wright. You can get it of amazon and also

It makes a very interesting read and argues a very grand case that we are all - men and women -currently suffering from excess testosterone and the damage this is causing us as a global nation.

I suspect

the real problem they are trying to get at using testosterone as the culprit is probably closer to "dopamine dysregulation" (than it is to simple testosterone). At the end of the day, though, it may be the same behaviors that are throwing us out of kilter...or restoring balance....however you choose to describe the imbalance.

"At the end of the day,

"At the end of the day, though, it may be the same behaviors that are throwing us out of kilter...or restoring balance....however you choose to describe the imbalance."

Yes I agree -

at the end of the day we need to change our behaviour to change our neuro-chemistry and I think that the work you present here has to be one of the most profound keys there is to restoring this balance.

The book still makes an interesting read and also really delves into split brain research which I personally find very fascinating.