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4 Months on the path, 4 orgasms, and I don't remember how long it's been.

Facing some age related failures this weekend sent me into a mild depression...4 days and I'm coming out....but I am ever impressed with how fragile we are ...well maybe not all of us. Not having orgasm to fix me, I was kind of left on my own. Too down to ask for help...but got some cuddling last night...pretty wonderful. It's one sided tho and I wish it wasn't.

Nice to hear from some other guys in relationship working through this stuff.



It shows how much I/we need her.
I was impressed with the depth of feeling and sensitivity. When we're using we just feel that much.

Gators and Others

Valuable insight? I'm too busy for that. Let's see....
Not much poetry, just 2-3 short notes of love /week. I'm good for only a few poems/year.
Unfortunately I've taken up the I Ching again. "Coming to Meet" brought me to tears of frustration. I have made huge changes and yet I am still so dependent. The Sage says "Go half way. If they do not meet you, withdraw." We've done that in the past and it was awful. I am so afraid. My work here, and the Sage, keep challenging me to work from my center and not cop out for the quick fix. I'm feeling that to hold my center I need to withdraw. It hurts and I'm scared. I have hope that my work here will make it different this time. I feel so lonely. All patience is gone. AND I haven't even had an orgasm in only God knows how long...well it's blogged here somewhere.
So what do you all think of this opening to this evening's conversation?
"I need to reconsider my plan of action. I worship you and I am frustrated. I am considering withdrawing. Is your intention to remain rude, inconsiderate, self centered, and continue to take advantage of me? I think touch is like a conversation. I open with a loving statement and I get ignored or rejected. Will you join with me to change the situation? or am on my own?


[quote=Aphrodites Chela]The Sage says "Go half way. If they do not meet you, withdraw." We've done that in the past and it was awful. [/quote]

If the sage said it and it came up in a reading... well, let's look into it. Question: In the past, how did you withdraw? Was it like in Hotspring's powerful toe-kissing scenario (or some other scenario where you withdraw "like a man"... but man, that toe-kissing scenario really taught me a lot) or was it angrily? Angrily reduces your trustability in the feminine's eyes. She needs you to stay solid in your masculine strength. Different women have this need to greater or lesser degrees, but from what I've read of your journey, it seems like she has this in spades. This is why your proposed discussion opener a little ways down doesn't sound like a good idea to me. She's already communicated so much that more questions are moot. It's time to act, and when you act, do it decisively. That means no groping. It means no orgasmic sex even if she asks for it. It means you're committed to healing the relationship through karezza and non-goal-oriented bonding and will not waiver. I think it also means no worshipping. There's a kind of relationship where that works, but in your wife's case, I think it's the opposite case, where worship just further reduces your trustability in her eyes. Worship is telling her she owns you, and if she can sway you, so can the world, so can the allure of porn, so can your own shifting whims, influenced by every little difficulty. True or not, that's my feeling about how she's taking it. The feminine tests the masculine. See everything she does, every rebuke as well as every opening that leads to orgasmic sex as a test, and make sure you pass. Do this to the point where your trustability is re-established, and you might just melt her heart... but more importantly, have grown, and in a BIG way.

Oh Man....

it keeps coming back to this.
Focus on my own self improvement!
I keep trying to find ways to change my wife. As my primary motivation, it pulls me off center. But, damn! it seems so much easier to blame my troubles on somebody else.
They are my troubles. It's my thinking that "I'm not getting enough" that causes my pain. I've just switched forms. I thought it was sex, now it's affection.

Sam/Larry advocates affirmations (as well as other excellent advice)
"Our relationship meets all my needs" doesn't work
"I am a strong capable man" is better

Going from addiction to worship was fairly easy...lots of similarities.

This Deida "woman tests man" stuff is challenging. Has he sustained a long term marriage with a woman with this philosophy?

The training of Shamu and spouses: So what motivates my Isadora? Communication. If I'm going to get Skinnerian on her, what would it look like? Don't talk to her until she acts "right"?

It feels right, thank you Tantra11, to pull back from the groping and oogling. I plan to save it for when I'm prepared to follow through with karezza rather than several times/day juicing up.

Last night when I came home, she was preparing dinner (sweet Hera) and I was disappointed that she did not turn to greet me. I thought, "OK, pet the alligator," and gave her 2 kisses on the back of her neck. She's not angry, just busy, and doesn't care about such greetings. How does that fit with the Deida/Shamu thing I'm working on? Deida weak and Shamu wrong.

At bedtime I took the kiss I wanted, without protest from her but I felt I shouldn't go further and left. Deida strong? Shamu wrong (what behavior am I rewarding? and is my kiss a reward?)

Interesting stuff guys...I'm working it. Thanks for your invaluable help. I wish I were a better student.

As best I can tell

the Shamu technique only kicks in when you ask someone to do something and they (then or later) actually make an attempt to do it (even if it's in a half-assed way) Smile . The technique suggests that instead of pointing out that their compliance is half-assed, or quarter-assed, you simply praise them to the skies.

So you request, stay neutral when you are ignored or the person does something contrary, and then praise if they do anything remotely like what you were asking.

Can you just suggest that you'd like the two of you to try a nightly hug for two weeks...just to see what happens? Tell her that 5 minutes is enough. (Even 3 will do it, though.) That way you don't have to renegotiate every night. If she's surly and refuses on a particular night, then off you go as neutrally as possible (knowing that it's her loss if she doesn't snap up an offer of loving yang energy). If she cooperates, you hold and praise.

I still say that if you thoroughly relax her amygdala, she's likely to become more proactive. I know you long for that. It's a healthy longing. But I know of only one way to retire her inner sentry...and that's daily, generous bonding behaviors...even if she's a bit uncoooperative at first. It's not soothing to be someone's ice cream cone (or deal with begging), but it is soothing to be held, or hold someone, just for the closeness of it...even if someone isn't feeling so inclined at the start of the hug.

Deida "woman tests man" stuff

I was rather disgusted with that Deida article. Not with Deida himself, but with the idea that there are probably some women like that, who constantly "test" their man with constant, small provocations, apparently to reassure themselves that their man has enough patience and love for them as to not be bothered by those provocations.

I feel like I have an extraordinary amount of patience, but that sort of behavior from a partner would wear me down eventually. Fortunately, none of the four women I've gotten to know through more than one date have exhibited that sort of behavior. So I don't think most women behave like that, although there are probably some who do.

Maybe Deida enjoyed that sort of testing, and so felt attracted to that sort of woman. He might have considered it a worthwhile challenge, a way to strengthen himself and become more able to deal with other people more patiently. Something like the way some of us take on the challenge of public speaking, for example, for the various benefits it offers (improved confidence, better ability to communicate and "sell" our ideas, etc.)


I personally couldn't stand a woman who tested me all the time either, but it has happened in all my relationships to some degree. The frequency and type (i.e. healthy or not healthy) is probably based on both how feminine the woman is, as well as how emotionally secure she is. And "test" is not really the right word, since it's pretty much never a conscious thing she's doing. For example, one girlfriend of mine would have a monthly PMS meltdown. She'd be fine all month long, then during PMS time, there'd be a crying fit over some small comment I made that made her feel threatened about the security of the relationship. I didn't handle these very well, accepting her words at face value, that the relationship was really doomed. What she was REALLY saying, however, was that she just needed love and assurance, and if I had been more secure in the masculine sense, I could have given that to her instead of being thrown for a loop each month. This is the kind of "test" Deida is talking about.

Deida says that we attract our compliment. Highly secure, masculine men will attract more feminine women, and it'll work. I personally couldn't handle that much femininity. (So my hats off to ya, Che!) A more masculine man, however, would actually like the polarity that's created by the dynamic. In the above PMS scenario, for example, he'd be a rock of strength for her, she'd appreciate that and melt, and he'd feel the satisfaction of giving her the love she needed. The relationship would deepen (and probably lead to some hot sex). Sounds great, huh? But not my style. Maybe it will become my style as I continue to develop, who knows? That said, Deida doesn't equate femininity with needy insecurity, though it often seems that way because he uses this kind of example. The feminine, like the masculine, grow healthier, and before that, neither tolerates unreasonable levels of dysfunction. So, to use the PMS example again, if she were inconsolable, the man wouldn't just keep on being like a puppy dog trying to comfort her. That would be feeding the dysfunction.

I know I sound like a broken record....

but daily bonding behaviors done in silence...even if you keep them short...will do a million times more than any blaming discussions - no matter how justified you are. helped teach her to use a lover...even though you were trying to love her. It will take her time to unlearn that habit.

Also, I'm going to put this article in the next newsletter. It's three years old, but has something very important to say for how we can "train" each other to pick up new habits:

It can be used to train *either* gender. Wink

Thanks Shamu

I'm on it.
Me: Do you want to read this article about training your spouse?
She: Not really, why?
Me: So you'll know what I'm up to.
She returns to her reading.

Boy, is she gonna get it!


You crack me up. Gary uses it on me all the time...with great success. But he always craftily denies it. Wink I'm not as good at using it...but getting better.

Aphrodites, I'm sorry its so

Aphrodites, I'm sorry its so hard. It's probably frusterating on her end too. And I can relate to the bewilderment at not having had an orgasm in god knows how long. In the absence of even basic affectionate touch, not having the orgasm outlet can make one feel after awhile that its strange to have willingly cut oneself off from such forms of stimulation. I think the point is that in this approach, affectionate, non-goal oriented touch is supposed to replace the constant seeking for gratification in orgasm. But for those of use who aren't getting that touch, or having orgasm, it feels like a really weird state to be in, especially voluntarily and for so long.

Thing is, I'm not getting a whole lot of touch because of the opposite reason. GH is very willing and very "touchy". I want to be touched and I want to be in love with him. But his touch turns me off. A big barrier comes up, a solid wall. I dislike the quality of his touch, though I love him. I dislike how my body reacts to his touch. We've been exchanging massages and doing an exchange here and there. But my heart remains closed. I can't tell if this is from our history, muscle memory from past trauma that I associate with him, or the quality of his energetic presence. Yes, he worships me, but it gives me no satisfaction. It implies somewhere to me that he does not have his core. I can't rely on him, because he's weak with love. He turns to mush at my slightest response.

But he is not mush. He is a really lovely man with a lot of integrity and generosity.

So i'm all confused too. All I can say is that perhaps its hard for her being so guarded too. One would think it comes down to a simple choice not to be guarded, but it doesn't. There's more involved. It's a dynamic.

As mentioned before, I'm going into a ceremony tonight where I will be asking for guidance and visions from the great Mamacita. If I glean any insights I'll let you know.

In the meantime, wishing you the best!

It's definitely

a dynamic, not a choice. And you both have my empathy. Been there, done that...have the divorce papers to prove it. Wink

I say again that daily bonding behaviors...where you don't worry about the quality of the other person's touch, but only about what you have to give (simply because you recognize that your powerful energy can be a healing force in someone else's life)...can make a real difference. Think of it as service to the world, or humanity.

Since you can't talk to your/her/his rational mind about this problem (because it's probably coming from a guarded amygdala in the primitive part of the brain), you have little choice but to speak the primitive brain's language if you want it to open up the "gates."

That means bonding behaviors, and/or spiritual work like visualization, or seeking answers from Mamacita (or your own inner guidance). A battering ram clearly won't do it.

This is a really important challenge, and part of me respects you both for taking it on. I look forward to the insights you share with the rest of us.

Yes, an IMPORTANT challenge.

Yes, an IMPORTANT challenge. And a lovely one.

No worries about me and GH. Our patience and perserverance have been worthwhile, and have led us to the heart. All is well between us, flowing as never before. Will share more details later.

I avoided

the conversation as planned....good idea eh? BUT we did get into a fight that would appear to be about something else.
Thank you for your loving support.
I ID with Golden Heart and feel lost. I don't see how my loving touch can change the armor of an alligator. *sigh* I said I'd give it a year...
Much Love

Petting the alligator

I'm was coming back towards equilibrium....until I read the post from real_neuroscience. Is he Marnia's ex?

I apologized to my wife for my funky behavior. She said, "Yeah, you've been grumpy."
There is a part of me that wants to control my life and make things work. I went from depression to anger and frustration believing that I was showing up and putting out and she wasn't. Anger firms up mush pretty good...but it's hell and I don't want to live there. And it's all stinkin' thinkin'....much better for us all for me to change that.
So, I am left with a deep unformed sadness. Forming that into the image of my wife was not good. Acting like such an ass, I did not believe I could ask for what I wanted (silly me, I wanted her to see what I needed, and offer). If things don't pick up today, if I can't pull myself out, I'll ask for help....and she will.

Carol Anthony's "A Guide to the I Ching" is a wonderful book adding a contemporary view to Whilelm's. I found the old translation difficult to understand and Anthony's quite accessible. Every hexagram I've thrown (4) has spoken directly to me and the situation.

I realize I forgot to respond

to your "ex" comment, which also made me laugh out loud. No, he's not an ex, but I did realize who he is...I think...thanks to your comment. I'm pretty sure this is his third visit to the forum in three years...always with a new persona...always insinuating that he knows evil things about me. We have never met, but did have a lively email exchange on my personal email early on...until the same "flavor" appeared and rational discussion became impossible.

I expect he'll crop up again from time to time, although I can't believe I'm his most interesting "project."

In any case, I'm adding the following policy to the site:

You can be as critical or controversial as you like, but please don't be personal or offensive. If you ramble on in an annoying way too often, one of the admin folk may remove your posting privileges.

Random Thought

Quote: Aphrodites Chela: the Sage, keep challenging me to work from my center and not cop out for the quick fix.

Could holding onto center be thougt of as radiating from center? And where is center, really? Like the Catholics say, "God is so small he can dwell in your heart and so large that He fills the whole Universe."

I once dated a girl who turned me to mush. We didn't continue dating (Cheryl thinks it was a good thing). She seemed to have some power over me that I couldn't explain. Now that I'm looking back, I'm sure it was some kind of biological warfare.

I've used affirmations for a better relationship in the past and over time, our marriage has be totally rewired. It is said that we attract to us what we truly desire. The problem is that we don't even know what our deepest desires are, they seem to be hidden behind walls. Like the old TV show, "Do you want what's behind curtain A or B?" You choose without seeing what your choices are and then are stuck with the outcome.

I managed to learn to talk to folks who could see behind the curtains and get their advice. That was a start, but they wouldn't tell me what they could see, so I was still in the dark.


I agree....what we say to ourselves is so important. I have a running monologue most of the time. Why not go for the positive?
Answer: I forget
It's not the truth (this is a funny one 'cause it's all in my head and none of it is real)

We got together 35 years ago. For most of that time my prime motivation was Desire and to get high on sex. I liked wanting. Of course, I found a woman who was very good at keeping me in that state. So, as much as I piss and moan about not getting, I've obviously put myself here.

Thank you Sam


It's so nice...exchanged massage and got into bed. I simply asked, as we were planning our weekend, "How would you like to make love?" "I don't care." So I suggested massage and karezza. I'm loving it.

My Sweetie is puzzled by this non orgasmic not so heated sex but says it's ok. So with the Exchanges, PBtS, and The Art of Sexual Ecstasy I'm looking forward to some great sex.
Wait a minute.....
Isn't that what got me into trouble in the first place?...looking for great sex?
It's what got me here. So here I am. Much Love

Yo Afro Bro - You sound

Yo Afro Bro -

You sound strong, and its good to hear. Your wife will come around. She will swoon yet. I don't give a rat's ass about menopause. She is a goddess and a woman and so must eventually be made love to, clearly not on her terms, clearly not on yours. Good luck in the calibration process!

So, I may be down your way in the next month. You are in the Bay Area, right?

I have some important messages from Mamacita to share with you and, perhaps, your Goddess.

There's good news, me friends. Will share more later.


Mamacita is mamacita, also

Mamacita is mamacita, also known as Ma, Mutti, Madre, Mommy, Mom, Mary, etc. etc. Don't you have a mother? Never heard of her before? She lives in the center of the earth and cares for all her children with tender regard. Her milk is an elixir, nectar to soothe all ills.

A Cruel Cosmic Game

Hmmm . . . I'm getting mixed ideas from this site. So, I'll play the Angel's Advocate.

The way I see it, sex is a cruel cosmic game. If you become celibate, you miss the mark. If you follow through with your animal instincts, you follow yet another dead-end track. It's the middle way that you must take---like a hidden keyhole. If you open that door, you can pass on into the next level of the game. But beware because that door is guarded by the fiercest of monsters---your own sexual passions.---Larry Stokes

One of the things that is beyond that hidden keyhole is GREATER sex. Orgasms are the carrot that leads the horse along unawares. When the carrot is passed up, an even nicer treat pops into view. But, it's a long way back to the barn where that treat is.

I looks as if I'm publishing a book so this Internet name has suddenly become useless.


What a nice summary of what this site is about!

I feel like I stepped inside that door a few times, many years ago, looked around, and said to myself, "What a nice place! I should come back here more often." But I never went back after those few times.

And now that I really want to go back, there is no one who wants to go with me. Kinda pointless to go by oneself. Sad