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Submitted by Aphrodites Chela on
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8 1/2 months on the path. Life is calm. After a month or two without orgasm we shared one 10 days ago. Things got a little bumpy around day 6 (I was irritable) but back to calm now.

I sit admist a vast stillness
There are no waves
No desire
The horizon is lost
To the sameness of color

In turning away from orgasm
I have lost the erotic


My first impulse

was to say, "Write us a poem in 5-6 days, and let's see how you're feeling then." Smile

But there's more to this challenge. What I've been learning has two parts: (1) daily bonding behaviors and occasional gentle intercourse (after a slow start of two weeks of the former) AND (2) avoiding orgasm as much as possible to prevent giving subconscious Coolidge Effect these tend to drive separation between partners one way or the other.

It sounds like you have drifted into "no contact except for the rare orgasm." This is a different that I haven't ever gotten good results with either.

Are you sure your Izzy wouldn't be willing to agree to a minute or two of bonding behaviors daily? I think if you really kept to two minutes for a good while, she'd open again.

Yeah, I been slackin'

I got tired of asking for more than the 1-3 hugs and 2-3 kisses in the day...most a little longer than she would like. We'll revisit the issue after our daughter's wedding on Saturday.
For the most part I'm glad to be away from the drama. The pendulum will swing back...I hope balance will be found.
Much Love


I am so thankful to know about the effects of orgasm. We're coming up on 2 weeks post. The knowledge and your support helps me cut some slack for all of us.

The tyrant is dead

His 45 year rule is broken
And the people no longer speak his name
(well my gaze does linger on exposed flesh....)

I am reading Mary Baker Eddy
Christian Science Religion of my father
19th century language, disjointed paragraphs
Translated into many foriegn languages (why not English?....she sooooo needed an editor)
But I can almost buy it
That part about spiritual healing and the knowledge that perfection exists within our grasp
I can work with that

I am working with it by focusing on the positive aspects of No O
There is no struggle, no drama
There is no desire for orgasm
There is no point to porn
This would not have been, without the changes I've gone through this year
The addiction is gone, completely

1 month post O
A birthday present (to us)
Still stealing kisses and hugs
Still hoping that they would be given

The last time she asked me to leave her bed I poured a bunch of love from my eyes into hers
And we laughed

I have got myself in a pickle
My expanded heart has made it impossible for me to say no to new and old clients
My caseload is enormous and unmanageable
I'm in the field all day and on the computer at night
I have no time to connect with my love
So it feels weird and needy to ask for a couple of minutes of karezza
Like some grizzled old stranger asking a college girl for a roll in the hay

I was going to buck up and get on track
After the wedding
After I get my work straightened out
After my beard grows out (I'm somewhat pricklish these days)
Much love to y'all


Coming up after a few days really down. I was getting tired of all the wankers at this site...wasn't feeling compassionate. But this morning I got it. I want to control the situation and like any addict the strategy is to narrow one's life so there is really only one thing to worry about. "Where is my next fix?" Porn is just a click away. Marnia followed th link to see the porn but I knew it was just pictures of naked ladies I've seen them. But I have put all of my happiness into my Isadora. She is sitting right there. She is in my arms. She is not into me. She watches TV, Desperate Housewives. I watched the last 2 episodes with her. Orson loves Brie. She's checked out, but hanging around, biding her time. I look at this loving man as ridiculous and ask Izzy, "Do I look that stupid?" "It's not the same. I'm not having an affair." Sunday night, in her bed, I hold her and she wants me gone. I ask for 5 breaths worth of connection and she is ready to make sushi of the octopus. Monday I'm feeling like an idiot for giving to this woman who refuses to engage me on a deeper level. I hate begging for 2 minutes of loving connection. I deserve better. I am entitled to more. And so it goes, down into the pit. Today my heart opens to the wankers. How does a man deal with this stuff? How do we get the dopamine up without going over? I cannot seperate from all you guys. I have to find the way to happiness without the addiction. It's not Izzy's job.
Much love


Geez, was there sunspot activity, or what??????

A C is leaving Izzy and Hotsprings is leaving Goldenheart. Maybe I'm just a hopelessly romantic poet, but you are both so deep in your thinking and loving in your words, I just can't conceive of you giving up. I'm sorry if I'm treading on deeply personal ground, but do your partners know you feel this way, I mean REALLY know? I hope you're venting or just saying how you feel right now. Sleep on it. Talk it over with a friend, counselor or minister, but don't do anything rash. You just may not find anyone better.


I'm not going

I picked up John Bradshaw's "Creating Love" last night. I put it down a few months ago because it was just tooooo depressing (10,000 ways to really fuck up your kids). So where I pick up is exactly what I need to read about, mystifying love and survival figures. Isadora is now my survival figure, my all is in her. The mystification comes as I expect that there is something I can to to make it all right. I can't. She is an individual and we are in a complex relationship. I want to stop doing things to make things better. I'm going organic. Check in with myself first, not with the idea that something needs to be done or avoided. I am confused and I embrace the void.

Yes, mine knows. There's

Yes, mine knows. There's little in here that I haven't shared with him, Poet. It's been a long conversation . . . . to say the least.

Aphrodites - I find it interesting that you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum and yet I feel like I can relate with you a lot. I can relate to Izzy too!

I was in a partnership in which he had immense desire, yet didn't know how to approach me in a way that interested me. From outside appearances, I was the cold Izzy in this scenario, but I sure don't feel like a cold Izzy inside (and I wonder if your Izzy does!) I feel like a woman who so longs to be made love to that I had to leave someone I otherwise love and respect very much because I was not getting that need met.

It is sad and somewhat of a failure to realize that both people wanted the same thing and yet were not able to achieve it.

It's really tricky, see, because my man associated being up front with his desire as being "pushy". Nothing could be farther from the truth. In the end, his lack of initiative pushed me away. I don't want to take the manly position all the time just to get laid. At the same time, I can't accept him when he does finally muster up the courage to approach me if his approach is so lacking in confidence that it turns me off. What can I say? Confidence turns me on. Insecurity doesn't. Confidence is not the same as force. Insecurity is not the same as being considerate. I think those things get confused a lot. My man wouldn't make bold moves because he interpreted them as forceful. He stayed in an insecure place that looked "considerate" but was really just fearful.

So he basically was afraid to approach me, and I was afraid to keep trying to accept the advances he could muster up that frankly were so feeble they turned me off. I couldn't easily keep moving forward with a physical situation in which my body was saying NO NO NO NO NO.

It's as simple as that. We can want all kinds of things in our minds, but our bodies think differently. The two can unite when both people are well calibrated. We have not been. He has taken on feminine qualities because his associations with manhood are so negative. I have taken on masculine qualities at the expense of my femininity because the feminine side of me is frankly impractical: all she wants to do is play, frolick, luxuriate, nuzzle, snuggle, make love, get pregnant, make food, feed people, massage them, go out dancing, and revel in the senses all day long.

I miss her.


If you gently touch the nettle
It will sting you for your pains;
Grasp it like a lad of mettle,
An' as soft as silk remains


Aye, the grass is greener . . .



Self-reinforcing pattern

Hotspring said: "I can't accept him when he does finally muster up the courage to approach me if his approach is so lacking in confidence that it turns me off."

It sounds like that pattern has occurred hundreds of times. He would approach you (timidly), you would be turned off and reject him - which just reinforced his fears and made him more timid.

Is there some way to turn that pattern around, so it self-reinforces in a positive direction?

For example, you once mentioned giving him kissing lessons. Could you give him seduction lessons? Tell him what to say, how to say it, what sort of moves to make? Ask him how you should respond (especially when you are not in the mood) so he doesn't feel rejected and feel discouraged?

Could you role play it, practice it? I bet it would feel incredibly contrived and unnatural at first. But after you've gone through it, you could ask "Would it work if I said ______ instead?" and adjust the pattern until it feels natural and comfortable for both of you.

What have you got to lose, that you're not already on the verge of losing?

This also sounds like a potential application of NVC. "Are you afraid of approaching me because you think I'll reject you?" Get him talking about what makes him afraid to approach you.

Good luck! Best wishes to both of you.

Thanks for your suggestions

Thanks for your suggestions curios fellow, but it is really too late this time. Yes, we've gone through the nonviolent communication. Yes, I've tried showing him what i like. Yes, it does feel horribly contrived. I've put myself in many awkward feeling situations just to try to work this one out. I've even gone through with having sex that I was turned off by just to try to "break down my walls", etc. I just can't do it anymore. I'm spent. I'm not attracted to him sexually.

Relationships are very fragile things, even if we're hell-bent on making it work. The fact is, the buildup of associations over the past two years of trying so hard, trying to get around my feelings and feel something I don't actually feel, trying to support him in being more confident even though he isn't, beating myself up for being so hard to approach, etc. etc., is an old story that needs to change.

It is not fun to break off potential. I prefer not to do it. But at a certain point, to keep on trying just makes things worse.

I feel ready and willing to dive off the edge of the cliff of my life and into the unknown. I may crash, or I may fly, but I refuse to stay in a situation that is unbearably painful for us both, is stagnant, is not going anywhere interesting, and is only reinforcing said patterns.

Time to move on. I did try.

All I can add is that I hope

All I can add is that I hope everything works out for best for you. I can give 0 advice on relationship problems (never been in one so no idea what they are like). I just hate to see someone in simular pain as myself. Your intensity has helped me work through some of my problems. I hate that can not return the favor. Again all I can do is wish you the best. Good luck in your quest.

Thank you

Feeling pain is part of

Feeling pain is part of being human. It's not a problem.

I once dated a wonderful man when I lived in Germany - a biochemist, but he also loved theatre, literature, and playing the saxophone. Him and I recently got back in touch. Turns out he's researching pain perception. He's discovered that the same mechanism to turn pain on is to turn it off. It seems to me that in some cases, pain is very useful information. If we numb ourselves to pain, that's when we're in trouble. We have to feel it and communicate it. The way I do that so that it doesn't become unbearable excruciating, is to find a new reference point for myself, one that is larger than pain but still contains pain. That way, pain is just a part of who you are.

Even if scientists manage to do away with physical pain, the only one who can address their soul pain is that person themself. In this way I think soul anguish, soul pain, although not an optimal state, is part of the road into the true yearnings of the heart, if we can listen to the pain.

I am doing really quite well actually. Theres something about letting everything go, starting over from scratch, watching everything fall apart, that is both terrifying and purifying. My spiritual practice has strengthened through these hard times. No matter how bad things get, we have to count our blessings.

As Gary Snyder says,
"And the less we've got the happier we should be for it - and the more grateful we should be. And the worse that happens to us, the more grateful we are because it reminds us that we don't need anything. Everything starts from nothing and we have the power of that behind us."


Thanks again HS

I have moved from anger to sadness.

Back to square one. All the old ways of being with my Isadora are in question. Getting off the porn/orgasm horse has revealed a deeper level of my addiction.
The base I'm working off is: Isadora is no longer my source of comfort. As I no longer seek orgasm, I no longer conduct my thoughts and my actions to get something from her. I need to find my own ways to feed my soul.

I hope to build something new and better.

Much love