Adapting Karezza for personal tastes and needs

Submitted by Sapphire on
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Hi all. Well, its been nearly 8 days since my first bout of Karezza-style intercourse, and I thought I'd do an update.

First, let me say that when we did "karezza" the last time, we did finish with orgasms for both of us, but the amazing thing is, there has been absolutely no fallout for either of us. Let me explain why I think that is. First, years ago, when we were having conventional-style sex, with its heat-em-up foreplay, hard thrusting and quick finish, I was having Os after my husband had climaxed, but even so, I always had orgasm fallout and a great deal of hostility toward him, even though he always made sure I had an O. This time, our love-making, done Karezza-style, was very slow and leisurely, with no heating-type foreplay and no hard thrusting. There was only gentle, heart-centered "foreplay" and a long, slow, gentle bout of P-I-V...at least 45 mins of it...before we both decided we wanted to climax. Afterward, I felt absolutely NO hostility or anger toward my husband...a huge change from the aftermath of conventional sex. And in the days that have followed, there has been no fallout that either of us has noticed. During that time, we have done bonding behaviors for at least 15-20 mins every day at least once per day, and usually twice per day. It is my belief that it is the long, slow, gentle PIV, plus the BBs every day since then, that have kept fallout from happening. The other thing that is very important to me is that he no longer touches me in a sexualized fashion. He has learned that whenever he touches me, it must not be in a hungry, sexual way, because that alarms me and sets me on edge. With the hunger out of his touch, he is now free to touch me whenever and where ever he wishes, and I welcome his touch now, and enjoy it immensely. So I think Karezza might be quite an adaptable system of lovemaking, adaptable to the couple's personal tastes and needs. Thankyou, Marnia, for bringing this forgotten blessing called Karezza to light again.

Comments

Keep us posted

Thank you for trying the ideas. It's especially helpful to try them for a few weeks, as you have, and then go back to sex with orgasm...and keep observing. I made this experiment a number of times...both on purpose and inadvertently. Wink

I find the worst of my fallout happens in week two...and it's therefore very hard to connect with the pleasurable events that actually began the cycle. The effects show up primarily as changes in my mood and perception. I can become hypersensitive and very reactive. Worst of all, I do not see situations clearly because I project my uneasiness onto them. Sometimes I project it onto my mate, but more often, I project it elsewhere...seeing threats where there are none in reality.

Gary's pattern is different. He mostly just feels tired and mentally foggy for most of the first week, and extra horny for two weeks, although sometimes he is also noticeably more irritable off and on during the two weeks.

Lab reports are very helpful for everyone, so thanks for sharing your experience thus far.

You have misunderstood what

You have seriously misread or misunderstood what I am reporting, Marnia. I said we DID HAVE ORGASMS but that we have experienced NO FALLOUT AT ALL, which I believe is due to the reasons I gave in my blog post above.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

I will find out for myself

when I have a partner, but I think you are onto something here, Sapph. I have read in Chia's books that even if one orgasms at the end, if the lead up is slow, loving, and unhurried (ie not 'hot'), that there is still an exchange of energy between lovers, that it need not be as draining as conventional goal-driven sex is. Maybe the secret is in giving oneself to the other, giving all of oneself with love, rather than hungry neediness. Orgasm or not, that sounds good to me.

Incidentally, Chia says that sex with a woman is ALWAYS less draining than ejaculating alone, which he calls a 'waste of energy' (btw he also tells us not to stress about 'accidents' on the journey to sexual transmutation). I really had better get myself a girlfriend Wink

Bonding behaviors

are always a good idea, and the very best medicine for coping with fallout during the neurochemical hangover. However, in our experience, and the experience of other experimenters, they do not completely counter the effects of orgasm. Both BBs and sidestepping orgasm, to the extent possible, may be necessary to stabilize deep feelings of wholeness.

This is something each couple will have to figure out for themselves, over time. And I think it is normal to experiment with the idea that bonding behaviors alone will do the trick. I've made that experiment m'self. Smile

I think the long, slow,

I think the long, slow, gentle PIV had everything to do with the falloutless orgasms that we both had, River. The other thing I noticed was that I didn't need to heat myself up with mental images or fantasies to have the orgasm...the bodily sensations were enough all by themselves, and I am wondering if the absense of fantisizing (because the PIV was so leisurely and gratifying) also made for the absense of orgasm fallout.

p.s. And I always had horrible fallout with conventional (hot and heavy) sex/intercouse/orgasm, so I know exactly what post-orgasmic fallout feels like, but with the Karezza-style slow, gentle PIV followed by orgasm, the post-O fallout that I was expecting simply has NOT happened

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Hmmm

In my experience there is more than one kind of fallout you can get. You can get a pretty immediate negative reaction because the sex was somehow self-centered, disconnected, or just bad, and you can also get effects from any kind of orgasm that are more delayed, harder to identify, and less predictable because there are both highs and lows in them. Of course they vary from person to person. The two don't really preclude each other, though.

I know myself very, very

I know myself very, very well, and when I say NO fallout, I MEAN no fallout, even subtle effects that are easy to overlook. I have been observing myself very closely since my orgasm, and again I have had NO problems with post-orgasmic fallout.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Views, views, views ;)

Clinging to any belief in the face of conflicting evidence would seem silly. Just as when the Church threatened Galileo with torture for stating that according to his calculations, the earth was a sphere and not flat...I would rather go with the evidence, with my own personal experience. And Sapphire seems to be very clear about her personal experience in this matter. Unless you can somehow trade places with her and inhabit her body and mind for a while, Amari, I must respectfully tell you that you simply can't tell her how she is feeling, she knows better, cos she is herself...I can't put it any other way!! :)

Consider for a moment how views clung to too tightly and fought over result in stress. The muslims believe that only their version of god is correct. Christians believe that only their version of god is correct. They both exclude the other, yet are equally adamant about the supremacy of their own faith. My solution to this insanity? Live and let live. "Everyone has their own truth", as the Latvian saying goes.

Thank you, River

[quote=River]...Sapphire seems to be very clear about her personal experience in this matter. Unless you can somehow trade places with her and inhabit her body and mind for a while, Amari, I must respectfully tell you that you simply can't tell her how she is feeling, she knows better, cos she is herself...I can't put it any other way!! :) ...[/quote]
Thank you, River :) :) :) Just because some people have trouble with post-orgasmic fallout, it does not automatically follow that all people will have trouble with post-orgasmic fallout. If Marnia and Gary have identified a sub-set of the population that is vulnerable to post-orgasmic fallout and the disruption that it causes in their lives, then they have rendered a immensely important contribution to society, and we should all be grateful, because some of us may be married to someone for whom fallout is a problem. It just doesn't seem to be a problem for my husband and me, quite possibly because we have been religious Wink about doing the Bonding Behaviors every day. Whatever the reason, I am glad not to have to deal with post-orgasmic fallout. But if Post-O fallout would start to be a problem for either my husband or myself further on down the line, I will certainly let everyone know about it because it would be unethical of me to do otherwise.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Wow...

It seems like it's very important for you that Sapphire's feelings and observations be respected, and it also seems like you think I was trying to dismiss them. In case it wasn't clear, I was trying to share my own observations, not tell her hers were wrong. I wouldn't wish to dismiss anyone's observations, regardless of whether I agreed or not, but in this case I'd hardly argue with her anyway since I've experienced plenty of orgasms myself when I had no effects I could observe for over a week afterwards, if at all. That is why I said that for me it can be unpredictable.

On the other hand, I feel annoyed because you seem to have just compared me to the Catholic Church in its entirety, and it doesn't seem entirely fair to me. Are you willing to tell me what you were meaning to communicate by that?

I apologise

for that, if that is how my post came across. I did not mean it that way!

I was most certainly NOT comparing anyone here with the Catholic church, and their often brutal supression of independent thinking. I guess they just keep popping into my mind! Like I said, I was kind of talking about people's right to dissent, and they just seemed like a good example of how NOT to be, but I promise you, I was not implying that this site is like the C.Church! If it were, I would have been banned long ago! Or maybe burned at a virtual stake...

But joking aside: I wish to clearly state that in retrospect, I could have worded my reply better. I've been just letting my replies flow out lately, I usually proof-read them more before clicking 'post'. Guess I need to be more careful of how my words might come across. But I sincerely tell you, I did not mean to cause any offence.

River

sorry but the title of the blog is misleading

"Adapting Karezza for personal tastes and needs"

Karrezza is a type of intercourse without orgasm. If you add orgasm it is just not Karrezza but conventional intercourse done in a much nicer way.
So an "adapted" Karezza is not Karezza at all if you change on of the important ingredients.

1. no orgasm
2. relaxed lovemaking / intercourse
3. selfless giving

All this together makes Karezza, if you leave one of them out or exchange them for something else it is not Karezza anymore.

To change the recipe changes the dish.
It might get very confusing if everybody experiments with ingredients and calls it a Black Forest Gateau, while it is not.
And then you show "your" Black Forest Gateau to somebody and they think this really IS exactly that cake.
And maybe this person would like the real Black Forest Gateau very much, but does not like the adapted version... So they will run around and tell everybody about the taste of this kind of cake... not knowing they are not talking about the real one.

I'll remember that next time

Gee, thanks for the advice...I'll remember that next time I'm making a cake.

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I haven't tried before." Mae West
Questioner: "How do you keep your youth?" Mae West: "I pay him very well."

Its been 8 days

Its been 8 days, as I said in the first sentence of this blog post...with ZERO fallout so far. And at this point, I would be very, very surprized if there is any. But if there is, I will let you know because I have no reason to hide any post-O fallout if it should occur

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Great

That will be very helpful feedback.

And, by the way, I hope you continue to have none. I've just learned not to count my chickens too soon in this business. I've squeaked through without some kind of hangover only a handful of times. Before I paid attention (after it was very clear that men often had subtle symptoms) I really thought the rest of the world was the problem. Smile

I just realized something.

I just realized something. You know how some people can have sugary foods, and operate just fine after them, while others (like myself) have to be moderate with them, and still others can DIE if they ingest them? Maybe orgasm is like this, it will affect each and every person differently. Maybe some of us are not as sensitive to fluctuations of Dopamine as others; maybe we need not *fear* these fluctuations, but simply tune in and with the attitude of an explorer, find out what works for ourselves as an individual.

I read somewhere that an addiction could be defined as "a compulsion to do something over and over again, despite the negative copnsequences". What if for some people, orgasmic sex doesn't have negative consequences, and DOESN'T eventually lead to a 'Coolidge effect'? I have read quite a few accounts of people who stayed together, and in love, for 50 plus years, and not one of them mentioned non-orgasmic sex as the cause of the relationship lasting so long. They mentioned things like always communicating feelings to each other, listening to each other, and making time for each other.

I trust that I am free to raise these questions here free from censure. I am a seeker, just like everyone else here; I cannot claim any special knowledge. But I wish to open my mind and not close it...I am open to new possibilities.

I think it might be

I think it might be something like that, River. As an example, I swear, my husband could eat a 5lb bag of sugar and feel no effect what-so-ever, while if I put a spoonful of sugar in my tea, I will go into a mini diabetic coma.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Wow,

I wish I had your husband's tolerance to sugar. I can handle a spoonful in my tea, but a 5kg bag would probably put me six feet under. Anyway, I'm not willing to put that to the test!!!

I think that over the long haul...

I think that over the long haul there are negative effects from orgasm
even if we cannot perceive them. At least two prominent Tantra couples
who taught classes for decades are now divorced -- Charles & Caroline Muir
and David & Ellen Ramsdale. Both couples taught soft style intercourse
mixed with periods of stillness. Both couples taught against goal-oriented
sex and forcing the orgasm, but there was always at least a slight
expectation of orgasm in their writings. Marnia broke the mold by pointing
out the negative neurochemical fallout from orgasm. To use the analogy of
sugar -- it does its destructive work in the body whether a person perceives
it or not. Perhaps over a long period orgasm unsticks the relationship glue
whether we percieve it or not. J. William Lloyd had practiced Karezza for 40
years when he wrote The Karezza Method and we might all do well to start
by reading his wonderful little book (available free on this site) instead of
starting by each trying to reinvent the wheel.

m78 That is too bad about

m78

That is too bad about Charles and Caroline Muri and the Ramsdale couple. I had not known this about these couples. I have read there books multiple times and I have always found them to be inspiring writers on all things sexual.

I have told everyone before,

I have told everyone before, and I will tell everyone again, I do not care what the experiences of others (even LOTS of others) have been, or what the "experts" have to say on the subject. My husband and I will keep doing Karezza in our own style, in our own way, and find out for ourselves how it effects, or does not effect us. Our own experiences, and no on else's, will be our yardstick. If it turns out that we start to feel fallout, then we will stop having orgasms...but only time will tell the tale. In other words, Mel, there is no need for me to worry about what might happen...I only need to deal with what actually does happen. And for me to concern myself with fallout effects that are imperceptible(???) and deny myself something as enjoyable as orgasm because of possible phantom effects that may or MAY NOT have caused problems for other people, would be silly. To deny myself orgasm because it MIGHT have affected two couples' marriage would be taking caution to ridiculous extremes.

Perhaps orgasm fallout sensitivity is like many phenomena in the natural world: distributed along a bell-curve. In groups of organisms, their responses to something is usually distributed along a bell curve. Perhaps orgasm fallout is not a "rule" at all, but only one respone along a continum, or spectrum, of responses. Also, the kind of bait you use determins what kind of fish you catch. Perhaps because this is mainly a porn addiction recovery site, maybe people who tend to cluster at the "extemely sensitive to orgasm fallout" end of the bell curve would tend to cluster here, giving a false inpression that O-fallout is more common in society as a whole than it really is. If the distribution of O-fallout is like most things in nature, then some people will never have ANY fallout, no matter how often or how intensely they orgasm, most people will have SOME fallout but their relationships will endure anyway, and finally, some people will have INTENSE fallout from the most minor of orgasms. That is how phenomena are usually distributed in the natural world. Also, let us not forget that all of the evidence here is anecdotal, not scientific. So far, orgasm-drives-couples-apart is only a THEORY...nothing more. And finally, the experiences of some people here can be used as a starting point, but I see no reason why their experiences should be taken as dictums.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

yeah I think that worrying

yeah I think that worrying about what might happen is a little like guilt. It can eat at you in a bad way. It is good that you are thinking cautiously though. It is just not a good idea to worry. Just be mindful of yourself and remember what you posted here.

Not sure the site is supposed to be a porn addiction recovery site. We kind of hijacked it I think :O :)

Wishing you well
Be Safe
James

Yes, James

[quote=James R.]yeah I think that worrying about what might happen is a little like guilt. It can eat at you in a bad way.[/quote]
Yes, James. I could sit around all day wondering about what "might" happen. If my husband and/or I experience fallout, so what, really? All we have to do is deal with it, that's all. If we have fallout, then we have learned something valuable about ourselves, and if we DON'T have fallout, we have learned something as well, so there is absolutely nothing lost in seeing how orgasm, combined with lots and lots of Bonding Behaviors, affects us.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Hey Sapph,

I agree with you about the fact that if we used *just* the membership of this site as our sample, we would get a distorted view of how sensitive to Dopamine fluctuations people in general are. That is very insightful of you! To be fair to Marnia and Gary, though, I think that Gary draws his research from a wide variety of sources, not just from observations about pp here. Plus I don't think that they intended for it to become a place where the top of the 'recent posts' is usually dominated by people striving to deal with addiction to porn...like James said, those of us struggling with M&P kind of ended up flooding the place, but I think they would rather be discussing Karezza and bonding behaviours than just getting over porn...on that note, I just realized that that is exactly what you are discussing, namely: Karezza and bonding behaviours. And your observations, along with all the others by coupled pp here, keep inspiring me to open more and more to the possibility of experiencing this for myself. I am beginning to realize that BB's are my ticket to permanent (as opposed to periodic) freedom from porn, cos I must say it never feels 'right' for me to live like a monk and not explore my sexuality.

Well, I liked your

Well, I liked your observation that there are some couples that have been in love for 50+ years, and not once have any of them mentioned abstaining from orgasm as the reason for their happiness. I think the lack of fallout (and this is now day 9 without fallout) that my husband and I are having is due to the reasons I listed in the post that started this discussion...long, slow, gentle PIV before orgasm, and lots and lots of BBs every single day. Having said that, though, we are keeping a careful eye on ourselves for signs of fallout. I am not discounting the possibility that fallout may still happen. I am simply saying that it has not happened yet. As far as I am concerned, this is an experiment...I am drawing no conclusions until the experiment is complete...I was merely giving a kind of lab report Wink about how things are going so far.

But those successful 50+ year couples continue to intrigue me. Its too bad that there arent more of them around to ask about how they do it. The thing that bothers me about research in fields such as this one is that only unhappiness draws the attention of researchers!, therefor, the number of couples who are driven apart might be over-represented in the studies. Perhaps the unhappiness is less about the presense of orgasm and more about the absense of Bonding Behaviors.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Maybe I'm an example

of the other side you mentioned. As I mentioned in my intro post on the forum, I've been at it since I was 11 nearly everyday, and I'm nearing 50. By all rights, I should be one depressed individual, can't hold a relationship worth a hoot, and dragging my feet with little left to offer anyone anything. For some, having an orgasm everyday might do that. Maybe most, I wouldn't have a clue. But for me, I've been married happily for over 27 years, and I'm not at all like that. I've never once seriously thought of cheating on her. Maybe I'm strange, but that's your point. All of us experience these things differently, and my experience won't match yours. You figure that out for yourself.

Likewise, I have to take what's here, experiment with it, and find out what works for me to reach my goals.

What I can't say is I'm not experiencing any ill effects, because if I am, I'm not likely to know it, having lived this way most of my life. But it's like, I can drink a cup of coffee and then go right to bed and sleep like a log. My wife would be up for hours.

In the near future, I want to read up more on this Karezza stuff. At least the name's new to me. :) But it sounds like something I would make use of. Good luck in your experiment, and look forward to hearing the final outcome.

Hi, Cole Well, its day 10

Hi, Cole
Well, its day 10 now and still no ill effects from the orgasm for either my husband or myself. I came to this site for marriage repair, and I have to say that the Bonding Behaviors are doing their work wonderfully well :) My husband and I were emotionally and sexually estranged for 10 years, and the 4 years before that were pretty bumpy, too. So all in all, it had been emotional-and-sexual hell for about 14 or the 16 years we've been married. But in the last month, since we started doing the Bonding Behaviors, a miracle has occured...we are in love again. For both of us, it is like a dream come true. With the BBs, we both have been able to let go of old resentments that were keeping us stuck in a destructive emotional loop. We are both starting to move forward with our lives now...he into his inner world, me into the outer world (he and I both have lots of trauma to work through). Long story short, we are both starting to HEAL, and we owe it all to Marnia's insight about Bonding Behaviors.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

Bonding...good idea

I've certainly heard about the need for more bonding touch, actions, and such. I think there was a book out many years ago (probably 80s if I recall) titled something like, "Sex Begins In The Kitchen." The idea behind it obviously that where you start is not the sex itself, but all the things you do together and help each other with.

And when you think of people in love, what do you think of? Couples holding hands, snuggling, kissing. Enjoying life together. I recall on our marriage day, there was a convention scheduled that we went to. Crazy, I know. But we left the church and traveled to the town to go to this convention. We walked in, across the big floor, and seated ourselves in the outside section. An older couple sat next to us, and at one point one of them asked, "Did you just get married?" I have no clue how they knew, but apparently it was obvious simply by the way we treated each other, and I would imagine that involved plenty of bonding touches.

But over the years, it is easy to let that die off. You get busy with work, doing stuff with the kids, we each have our own interest and hobbies. The TV shows she likes to watch, I don't care for, and some I do, she doesn't. You actually have to focus on doing that.

What is really interesting are my two boys. One is 21, the other 16. I was under the impression when they became teens and on up, that boys didn't want to have mom and dad be affectionate, especially in front of peers. Yet both of them have no qualms about it. My sixteen year old boy will sit in my lap, give me hugs, he even hugs me when I let him out for band practice, in front of his friends.

And to tell you the truth, I envy him. I didn't really have that growing up. Some early, I remember we kissed Dad every night when we went to bed. But my parents divorced when I was 8, and my mom wasn't highly affectionate type person. We rarely hugged, and the only physical contact I had with my brothers was in fighting. But I feel blessed to have kids that not only have opportunity to do that, but want it as well. So while my wife and I can certainly improve on the bonding...and I think that may help things overall, we do have some bonding going on.

And I've also learned there is an important bonding that my wife needs. That's to be listened to and respond to her. She gets onto me if I hear her, but don't respond with some kind of emotion. And I'm not a highly emotional guy. Talk if I have something to say kind of guy, otherwise, why? (You wouldn't know that by the length of this post.) So if she makes a statement and I don't have any response to it, I might just nod my head or go, "Uh hu." When really what she wants is, "Wow, really?" So I'm learning to stop what I'm doing, and listen, and work to respond in some fashion beyond just acknowledging that I heard her. She wants me to react to what she's saying, not just hear her. And I'm making a point when she goes to bed to give her a back rub/scratch. I know she likes those, and I don't do them enough. If I start giving her that every night, it can make for a good bonding time.

Just little things like that can make a world of difference.

Aura connections

I am so glad that you have started to pick up on the bonding that your wife needs, because I'd bet it will really make your relationship even better than it already is, and you kids will also sense it and feel even more secure, since a secure relationship between their mom and dad makes for secure kids. My husband has also started to see when I need things I cannot ask for, and it has made a huge difference in our relationship already. I also think his being able to see me has everything to do with doing Bonding every since day without fail. I think Bonding has actually given him a better feel for my aura or something, because he can see and sense things about me now that he never could before...it is like our auras are connected now, even when we are not in the same room.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you }:)

wow

[quote]see when I need things I cannot ask for[/quote]
That vision.....I want it

Sounds wonderful to me

What is PIV?
[quote]...we have done bonding behaviors for at least 15-20 mins every day at least once per day, and usually twice per day.[/quote]Wow! I believe, deep in my heart, that the BB's are the key. Got any ideas how I could get my wife interested?

I need

some BB's and some PIV. I think I have finally discovered that masturbation is DEAD BORING and I have had enough at last. I don't want to give up sex, though. God it is so tough being a human! And it is so tough seeing beautiful women everywhere! In Buddhism it is said that there is nothing more alluring for a man than the sight, sound, touch, smell and taste of a woman...damn straight, that's how it is! I'm going to either get myself a girlfriend, or go mad. I'm a sexual being, but my hands just can't satisfy me anymore.

I'm going back on the wagon, not just cos I'm sick of masturbating (even without the self-inflicted guilt, it is so damn LIMITED), but because I am so enamoured of some ladies that I meet that I would rather save up the energy for them. One of these days I am going to break out of my shell of habitual fears, and start dating again. I'm totally OVER how things have been for me. So this is day 1 of abstinence from P&M for me, but also day 1 of me working on eliminating fear from my life.

River.

I will see if I can follow

I will see if I can follow that advice. I am doing some things. Like getting back into school for one. What River is talking about though still scares the #R$% out of me I guess I need to learn to work around that. I am still a lot of work in progress :(

We are ALL

works in progress, and that's not going to change!

Re overcoming fears, I am very much doing it in stages, not all at once. Just to make that clear...I'm starting small, but thinking big.

Day 14 and no fallout

Well, its the 14th day since I had an orgasm after Karezza-style intercourse, and I can honestly say that neither my husband nor I have had any fallout from it. Will the same thing happen the next time we have orgasms? I don't know; only experience and time will tell the tale. But no matter what happens, we will have learned something valuable, and will have had fun doing it, too. Karezza-style intercourse is what I would call a win-win situation.

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I haven't tried before." Mae West
Questioner: "How do you keep your youth?" Mae West: "I pay him very well."

thanks for your post sapphire

m78

What I liked about your post is the emphasis you put on the non-seeking of orgasm. I think this is critical and may be the ultimate factor.

I think this is the key: whether or not one ultimately decides to orgasm or not and as you have explicitly stated, effects can vary -- I think the non pursuit of orgasm to be the first step. From there, one can decide to end the lovemaking session or continue on, and, if an orgasm rolls off of the person, then so be it. But, by letting the orgasm roll off instead of actively and obsessively pursuing it, I think this is critical.

The ultimate question becomes: what is the difference between an orgasm that just happens without effort, concern or intention and an orgasm that is sought after and pursued? Does the latter more engage the reward circuitry in the brain than the former? If so, the former may not create much in the way of disharmony as you have suggested.

Any thoughts?

Have you had any other orgasms since the one 14 days ago? Any tips for your success that you can point to.

Reward Circuitry

Orgasm chems engage the Reward Circuitry...so what's being rewarded? Loving contact or the quest for orgasm?
I like to think of the orgasm hangover info as a 2 week pass card...."Oh you poor dear, you had an orgasm, I understand, it'll be ok, I won't leave you."
Keep smiling folks

no goals

[quote=michael78]...But, by letting the orgasm roll off instead of actively and obsessively pursuing it, I think this is critical...[/quote](emphasis mine {Sapphire's})
No, I haven't had any more orgasms since the one 14 days ago. We have done more Karezza-type intercourse, but I didn't really feel the need for an orgasm when we were doing it, so I didn't have one (neither did he). I think it would be a total mistake to pursue orgasms or obsess over them in any way. If one happens, it happens, but if one doesn't happen, that's OK, too!. I would think that for lovemaking to be truely non-goal oriented orgasms have to be irrelevant. But I think what truely eliminated the hangover or fallout was, as I have said before, the long, slow session of PIV beforehand and Karezza-type intercourse plus lots and lots of Bonding since then.

p.s. I am not recommending that orgasm-as-irrelevant is the way to go for people working to re-boot their brains from a porn addiction. For those people, abstinence is probably the best thing to do. But I came here looking for marriage repair, re-bonding with my husband, and healing from abuse I sustained as a child. As far as I am concerned, this site has helped me tremendously :) :) :) to accomplish those goals!

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I haven't tried before." Mae West
Questioner: "How do you keep your youth?" Mae West: "I pay him very well."

Thanks for your report, Sapphire

All feedback is useful. Like m78, I'd welcome any details about orgasm frequency (and whether or not you "go for it" Wink ), if you would care to share them as you go forward.

It's great having a team exploring the ideas.

I don't mind sharing, Marnia

I don't mind sharing, Marnia :) . In fact, in some weird, detatched, disinterested corner of my mind, I find all of this to be really interesting...weird but true. But I don't want to let orgasm become a goal again. Orgasms are really enjoyable, but the long, slow PIV is even more enjoyabe, albeit in a way that is different than orgasm. But I am not going to try to prevent nor strive to have orgasms. It will be fun seeing what this 53yr old body has to say about all of this, too, LOL! Because I am past menopause, I might simply not need as many Os as when I was younger, either.

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I haven't tried before." Mae West
Questioner: "How do you keep your youth?" Mae West: "I pay him very well."

m78 I have not tested the

m78

I have not tested the idea whether orgasm pursued produces more in the way of disharmony than orgasm allowed. Frankly, I have not orgasmed in 29 days. So moderate of me I know. My wife is ovulating now so maybe when that runs its choice we shall see.

I generally don't strive for the orgasm. And, I have found that longer PIV sessions, whether light or hard, mixed with kegel exercises tends to leave me more energetic. Also, there tends to be less of a refractory period so I'm not sure what that means for prolactin release.

I have not examined harmonious bonding post come since I have only just read the book, December and I have only orgasmed once since the new year. My wife and I do alot of BB and we do practice karazza, though she enjoys orgasm about every other time. She does get a lot of oxytocin from child raising and nursing. It helps. Children provide many health benefits for men too, their smells and their affections.

Since I have not orgasmed, I do enjoy the feelings I have. I love looking women in the eye and telling people I don't give a s**t what they say... I have become less of a gentlemen and I am enjoying it. I enjoy acting less like an adult and more like the little boy inside. Also, I feel more of my temper and woman tend to respond to me differently. It is odd, but I often feel that they are more attractive to me, that they seem to open themselves up to me with their body language. It is as if my standing right in front of them is almost too much for them to handle without giving away signs of attraction. Very weird. All because I have not let one rip. It is as if I am untouched by their look and smell, that I could have them at any time, all I have to do is ask. That is why all the books about dating woman and getting woman to fall in love have it all wrong. Just don't orgasm, thats it.

LOL, yes, very lucky...no

LOL, yes, very lucky...no matter if we follow the "Official Karezza Rule Book"...or not...

"When choosing between two evils, I always like to pick the one I haven't tried before." Mae West
Questioner: "How do you keep your youth?" Mae West: "I pay him very well."