♥karezza tao tantra

Submitted by gaia on
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Hi everybody,
I have come across this web recently and as I and my husband in 33-years-long marriage do tao sex in the last couple of years, I would like to share our experience. We repaired our marriage thanks to this way of soft and caring sex and started our way of transformation. Problems haven´t disappear but life is real, here and now, and our souls are dancing in Light.
My first impression about karezza here is very nice and apparently it is THE way to sacred sex and the Divine similar to taoistic and tantric practices. But I am a little puzzled by almost total lack of real techniques here - how to work with breath, muscles, energy building, energy flow etc.( Or perhaps it is somewhere here but there is so huge amount of information that I missed it. ) How is it possible to follow the most difficult practice just by the idea in one´s head? It feels like the difference between bliss of medieval mystics (e.g.Theresa of Avila my favorite), who experienced the moments of total extasy by random and could not work with them at all, suffering painfully, and yogis, who could decide and freely choose the moments going deeper and deeper /or higher and higher. After years of practising we have defined two areas of possible problems for new adepts:
1. I do not think that the clash between orgasmic and non-orgasmic sex is that hard. To be able to ride the wave freely and with joy, you must be able to know your body and reactions fully and then you can freely choose what to do. When the couple agree and have normal traditional sex once every few months, it is perfectly ok. Orgasm is also gift from God and we can enjoy it without guilt, regret, fear etc. No extremes are healthy. We feel that with this approach you are free as individuals and as a couple. Without orgasm we feel special and with orgasm we feel ordinary, but we prefer common sense, not collecting "points" :-)... But of course we decide beforehand. It never happens by chance, we choose.
2. I am sure now that feminine sexual energy has totaly different dynamics from the masculine one. Masculine energy drives and directs with clear purpose, that is why men fulfill their "mission" if they master the ejaculation call and "tame the horse". But feminine energy loves to flower, flow, sing, and surrender. You as a woman can never really surrender if you know that you must not have orgasm. It is contadictory. (After a year of strict tao practice I felt like a soldier, tough, strong, shining - but very masculine. )I discovered that to be able to surrender I have to dissolve in my man´s arms, in God´s arms and to give up any control. In most cases I now experience something what is called body orgasm in tantra - sweet tide in the whole body, full, warm, grateful light in every cell of my body. I have met more couples, where woman had quit this life and relationship, being "motivated" by the man to be non-orgasmic. One told me: "for centuries we women were not allowed to be passionate because of false morals and now because it is something awful or dirty". The real art of man is to hold the line, not ejaculate, and give his woman orgasm if she wishes. That is the test of his love, and not easy. But when I found out that he is able to do it in this way, I was free.

Thanks, gaia

Always good to hear peoples' experiences. Friends and I have noticed that we're very sensitive to orgasm and that the fallout shifts our perception (especially of our partners Wink ) for a couple of weeks...and not for the better.

In any case, maybe some of us get to the "melting" phase more easily when we don't strive for conventional orgasm.

This site does have some articles about tantra, but many tantra techniques are actually quite different from karezza. They are focused on performance, riding "the edge" of orgasm, and giving women lots of orgasms. All of these things *can* get in the way of lasting harmony by screwing with dopamine levels. Besides, there are many, many sites offering tantra tips for those who are interested.

Here's an article that helps distinguish what we've been learning from many sexual practices: http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/neotaoism_and_karezza Really, labels aren't as important as this relaxation concept. I'm sure some tantra practitioners end up the same place. Perhaps you are one.

thank you Marnia

for your answer. I have read the recommended text about neotaoism. It helped a lot to understand the background, and my intuitive comparison to the european mystics was more precise than i had thought. I am very grateful for clearing up this point, karezza really grows from the deepest tradition.
The text about neotao sounds for me quite confusing at places, but I guess the reason is that there are several levels of the topic mixed up:
1. Chia speaks badly about karezza which does not build any bridge.
2. Chia´s text reviewed here is text for men, not women. Man DOES, woman IS. That is why men are instructed with techniques, to be able to tame their yang, and be HAPPY with this skill, while women surrender to the state, warming their yin and are HAPPY with this gift. Most taoist men do not use them as they prefer calmer way where only harmonizing the partners breath is enough. It rarely comes to the need of pressing the million dollar point etc. etc. So tao, even neotao is not about forcing anything. It is training so that during intercourse you are not trapped or driven but fine and relaxed, in a bliss.
3. A FEMALE reading a book about working with MALE sexual energy may be a little confusing, especially when in karezza the basic principle of male action and female state are not emphasised.
4. It would seem quite arrogant to me to say that tao only aims at "body" orgasm whereas karezza aims at "soul" orgasm. How do you know? People have been reaching God through sex for thousands of years, we have taoistic yoga, tantrayoga, hinduistic tantra, J.C. + M.M. sexuality, Karezza, tantric buddhism, sacred sex of native Americans... You definitely do not want to say that e.g. Dalai Lama is not a "soul" person, yet he is a tantrika par excellence! (To make it clearer, what is called tantra here is neotantra in fact and has little to do with traditional Tantra, which can be celibate. And neotantra in USA is pretty different and a little decadent from neotantra in Europe, I was told.)
5. Chia left his wife.. but I have been married to my husband for 33 year, tao practices healed our relationship and we are now happy, connected and in process of transformation. So the influence of tao sex on the relationship can vary.
6. Energy has poles, China or Moon or Mars; if not, it would not flow. You say "Soul orgasm is not something that lovers can force with performance. It arises from EXCHANGING ENERGY and fusing with the partner." Exactly, this is Tao. this is Tantra. And I am happy to see, this is Karezza as well.

So the neotao text has brought me into something else than i had intended originally... but thanks for any reality. I fully agree with you that labels are not the point. Apparently there are differences in the way how to get energized before we relax in sexual connection and I believe that all those ways please God equally...

A reminder: tantra simply

A reminder: tantra simply means "continuum". Tantra is not related to sex per se. The western appropriation of very sophisticated wisdom traditions from other cultures often leads to two-dimensional views and portrayals of them. The idea that Tantra is a form of sex practice, or that it focuses on riding the edge or valley orgasm, is an inaccurate representation of Tantra in my opinion. Therefore comparing it to karezza in these terms isn't really helpful, I don't think. Mantak Chia describes valley orgasm or what others describe as riding the edge, but his frame of reference is Taoist, not Tantric.

A bit of information on Tantra from Snow Lion:

"Tantra as continuousness, or continuum (rgyud), refers to the uninterrupted presence of the original nature, or state of being, of each individual. In Buddhist scriptures, this original nature is principally referred to as "mind" (sems), as in "ever-perfect mind" (kun tu bzang po'i sems) or "mind nature" (sems nyid). In this context, "mind" does not mean object-bound experience but instead the ever-perfect and intrinsic awareness that has no beginning or end.

"Tantra, or continuum, although not subject to modification or partition, may be considered from the perspectives of non-recognition (conditioned existence), semi-recognition (the path), and total recognition (awakening) of original being. Based on these three phases, tantra is set forth in terms of its three aspects: actuality, process, and result.

"Continuum as process, or method (thabs), refers to all of the various means by which one may recognize one's original nature or being. This process in tantra reflects, and is the exercise of, freedom and awakening, not in the sense of a goal attained but as a way of existing that manifests directly in every situation of life."

http://www.snowlionpub.com/pages/N69_5.html.

thank you hotspring

I am very happy with you contribution. I also think that Tantra (not tantra) is a way of perception of the existence, consisting basically from the three stages - as well as in other spiritual systems. Blind, opening eyes, seeing. What a relief to hear something like that.
When you see the world and crooked sexuality of the day, no wonder that it is tantra or neotantra, often "Osholike" system, where people started to flow for healing. It is better than nothing. I can see it, I can see the drawbacks but I do not criticize it, everything what happens has its own and good reason. People open, get sensitive and start thinking about sense of their lives. Some of them leave it, some of them get deeper, most of them start thinking about God for the first time in their lives. I feel grateful for literally anything what turns people in this direction today. I myself do not do tantra, nor Tantra, but I am VERY happy that in every spiritual system there is a layer of this sort, and is common to all people in all cultures...

But I have a question then: please, if Tantra (and Tao) are complex religious systems, having sex as a form of manifestation of reality, what is religious background of Karezza exactly? I know and like mystics, as I already mentioned, of course Phillip´s gospel, margaret starbird etc., so Christianity. Anything more special? Is there any reason why eastern and western practices cannot embrace? I am a Christian, i live in the West, i do Tao, and believe me, in the bliss it does not matter at all, which system it comes from. THAT IS WHY I DO IT. Like coming to the central hall full of light, it does not matter which door you have entered. Smile

Thanks again.

Techniques

Interesting comment about techniques. In my life I have had a reasonable bit of exposure and training in various massage and breathing techniques. With practice and experience, knowing how to touch and how to breath comes more naturally. So ecstatic exchanges come naturally. Its easy to pick up my beloved's foot and give her wonderful gift with little mental effort. I am not sure how I would be with my partner if I had not had this background. Likewise even something like cooking and sharing a delicious meal is easier if one knows how to cook.

So its not so much a technique thing, but having a set of tools that one has picked up from somehow and use instinctively is helpful. And then at the end of the day in Karezza I feel that it is not the me that is doing anything. Its all beyond technique, like leaving the mind behind. And I have to say to myself periodically "breath deeply". But then I am not to sure where that thought comes from.

So I reckon that for a guy, learning things like reflexology, massage or cooking are great ideas if one really wants to reach the heart of a woman.

Hi Graham

I think I will type separately your wonderful sentence "I feel that it is not the me that is doing anything." Exactly!!! I must say that according to what you wrote, Karezza is IT. The same wonderful gift from the same God...

About tools: you say, that you have studied reflexology and breathing techniques, and with these tools blissful states occur spontaneously. So - you MUST know something before it starts working. And what about those who do not have this background? They should get some basic information without any problems...They have to go through all the process alone, because there is not any tradition of this sort of teaching in the western world. That is a pity.

Perhaps if we stopped connecting the idea of working with energy with devilish dragonlike mysteries ala Green Dragon and White Tigress or whatever fantasy people are able to develop, if we stayed with calm breathing and exchanging energies until we lay in one energetic "egg" which is not broken whatever is the distance between us, we would come to the same table...:-)

Thanks and good luck!

Hi Gaia

I suppose for me it all feels like a journey and not a destination. My relationship is young and I know that there will be a few minefields along the way. We have stepped on a couple and are learning to be weary. It just feels great to be working in a new paradigm.

And there is that glorious thing we call LOVE which seems to be missing in so much Tantra. To do things for my beloved not because its written in some book that I should do it but because it draws us together into greater depths of intimacy. Because she is the divine feminine love and as I serve that I realise the feminine within my self and become whole.

I kind of give up reading a lot of Tantra stuff. Left hand, right hand, white Tigress and so forth seems dreadfully complex. I kind of like reading the Karezza book cause its simple. No fancy breathing techniques, just being present to know when a few diaphragmatic breaths would be good. And yes, to know the places where touch feels so good. And when I am truly present in the moment that touch feels ten times better. That part is not technique.

Hi Graham,

I wish you good luck with your young relationship! It is wonderful that you have a Karezza partner and you are walking along the path together. Prospects of such a relationship built on these foundations from the very beginning must be oh great!!!

Definitely everything is journey not a destination, because there simply is not any destination. If you meet one, at the bus stop e.g., let me know Wink (just joking...)

It is a usual process, and in Tantra recommended, to read, and then forget. All what we have read is now part of us and will be forever. The situation seems complex because eastern teachings are flooding to the west now and people often get lost in it if they do not follow carefully their intuition and just read because it is sooooo exciting... (Realising feminine in yourself and become whole is a tantric concept and I wonder how you would develop this process without it. See that? So everything is all right and perfect as it is.)

BTW, I do not do tantra nor Tantra. But I have visited and it is beautiful and full of real love and understanding, very gentle and opening. What I do is tao exercises tai ji and qi gong and because I feel energy running intensely during these, it is only natural that I feel running it durig relaxed sex. So we play with it at times for pleasure. And in exhausting winters we just lie one on top of the other without connection and breathe opposite, bellies swelling and sinking into each other, and it ifeels almost the same as lovemaking at moments. It is beautiful and very, very simple.

Stay in peace and have a beautiful time with your love!!! :)

Lenses

Well said, Gaia!

Words, even those refined over the centuries, are such blunt objects. They trigger different thoughts in different people. In church, we use the term "lenses" when talking about how we perceive. There is always something between us and what is actually happening, and that something, that lens, necessarily has some distortion in it, whether it be our culture, our attitudes, our beliefs or our experience. It's not a bad thing to filter a new experience through the lens of existing experience, as long as we recognize that imperceptible distortion happens.

We need to focus on our similarities, on the fact that we seek the same goal, rather than our differences, so we CAN come to the same table.

Poet

Oh wonderful, Poet,

very true, thanks. The lenses are burden of us all. In meditation, and prayer, and contemplation, people try not to look through them but to put them aside. Sogyal Rinpoche speaks about sitting all life by the glass door to the garden, thinking that we see the garden, and smiling back when we really stand up one day, open the door and enter the garden at last. I would say that we tend to use the lenses to protect us from the brightness...

I meditate with buddhists, contempalte with catholics, exercise with taoists, celebrate God in sacred sex and sing with free birds in my forest. It is sometimes amazing to watch people defending their culture/belief/attitude-coloured values, whereas they could spent all their time from now on just to BE open to God in all forms. That is the reason why Jesus was crucified, he was not willing to play for any team. That is his message I contemplate this week.

Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom. G.

Thanks Gaia

Thanks Gaia for your comments.

I really enjoyed your comments as they related to orgasm. While my wife and I do occassionally practice karazza as a form of birth control, we both find that regular, normal sex with orgasm and ejaculation to be the most fulfilling and enjoyable. For myself, I think there is something beautiful and important about the male surrender to pleasure, to one's own orgasm, a surrender to the women's body and her ecstasy. It is a sacrificial love that I find is a more complete experience. I find this aspect of sex to be missing when either karazza is practiced or the male withholds ejaculation. Though, sometimes it is beneficial to practice karazza or sex without ejaculation, maybe for health or professional reasons (many athletes for example may abstain from orgasm for weeks prior to an event in order to get the most out of their testoterone)

The issue with techniques with karazza is really straightforward. There does not appear to be any techniques because very little thrusting is used. I believe the male thrusts very gently and that is only to keep some semblance of an erection. Other than this thrusting, there isn't much more to do. I am sure some people flex pc or kegel muscles for energy movement, but there really doesn't need to be this either. Just lots of kissing, touching, and very, very, little thrusting. The most difficult aspect for me is the "boredom factor." Doing this for more than ten or twenty minutes is difficult because the excitement is so low. The point is to keep the sexual excitement low so one does not decide to move forward with conventional sex techniques.

With regards to the male orgasm, I like the thinking of David Ramsdale. David Ramsdale states, "[w]hile there is nothing wrong with achieving the woman's orgasm in a man's body, it misses the mark. There is a natural male orgasm that is the polar opposite of and energetic complement to the female orgasm. As a man achieves greater depths of physical, emotional and mental surrender during ejaculation orgasm, he arrives at what I call 'the male transcendental orgasm' or 'MTO.' The volcanic explosion is the man's natural, spiritual, sexual moment of enlightenment." There are surely numerous other ways to experience the divine or enlightenment. Orgasm is an easy and natural way to do it. Meditation, religious ritual, service, prayer, yoga, exercise (runner's high, for instance), etc. Different ways of experiencing oneness and wholeness with Ultimate Being.

However, I think a man needs to learn on how to delay orgasm so that one's lover can reach a level of excitement and enjoyment. Otherwise, the male would need to be able to have multiple ejaculatory orgasms.

Here are my unresolved questions regarding karazza and Marnia's books. These are questions I undecided about. Here are a few issues that I am currently debating in my mind:

Does orgasm really cause disharmony in relationships?
Or, is the disharmony caused by thinking patterns?
Is the disharmony caused by the lovers' decisions not to love or be affectionate with one another; a failure to surrender to each other?
Can't we be thankful and affectionate with our lovers for pleasing us in this ultimate orgasmic way without feeling unsatisfied with them? What really causes the dissatisfaction? Lack of Personal Boundaries? Lack of Surrender? Lack of personal Commitment? Lack of celebration of the other as a gift?
Why should my lover be threatening to me because she can invoke a powerful orgasm in my body?
Does karazza really address the monogamy issue?
Don't lovers find others attractive and desirable regardless of whether the couple is doing karazza or is otherwise happy with their lives and lovers?
Can't lovers be reasonable with each other and still invoke orgasms in each other's bodies?
Can't I be generous with my semen without moving away from my lover? Who cares if I come hard; it is a gift I am giving?

I generally think disharmony is relationships is caused by a lack of bonding behavior activities (which is Marnia's idea) but I don't think orgasms need to be avoided. I think couples can do both -- have explosive sex and regularly engage in bonding behaviors (hugging, cuddlying, touching, kissing, etc.) I think it is ultimately a decision. All emotions and feelings should be experienced and accepted, but one ultimately must decide to love the other is a physical way, chemically bondable way.

Finally, I think, like everything else in the world, orgasms need to be experienced in moderation.

Thanks Gaia for your thoughts on the above topics.

I was really getting tired of reading about the harmful effects of porn and masturbation. I don't know how Marnia can do it every day -- reading about dark side of porn and masturbation.

Thanks Harmony. It felt

Thanks Harmony. It felt good to express those ideas. I am not saying that karazza doesn't have something to give to relationships. Especially for those who have more regular sex (three or four times a week) karazza would probably have to be a necessity since that would amount to too many ejaculation orgasms for my tastes.

Maybe the secret to getting people to do more karazza might be achieved by getting people to have sex every day. After one or two days in a row of orgasmic sex, the couple might want to try a relaxed non orgasmic penetration.

Also, karazza is an intense experience of intimacy. Wonderful!! Laying with each other for a good period of time, just enjoying each other's presence in a relaxed manner. Naked, skin to skin, the smells and tastes of flesh and hair; the look of the eyes and softness of the tummy and feel of the thighs. So nice.

Take care.

Not much time,

but enjoyed the thread. I don't think of karezza as a separate "ism." In fact, the aim of my book (and this site) is to point out that echoes of these same basic principles (relaxed sex benefits) are found in so many traditions. Nor do I pound on technique, because everyone's recipe (historically) of karezza is slightly different...so it seems evident that couples need to find their own way.

Ramsdale, I think, split apart from his wife, with whom he wrote the "Sexual Energy Ecstasy" book I found inspiring years ago. So he may not have much to teach about sustaining harmony...which, for better or worse, is the focus of my website. My mission is not to define healthy male sexuality. That's up to men. My goal is to share that careful cultivation of sexual energy can play an important role in sustained harmony. It's up to everyone what they choose to do with that information.

Thanks Marnia. By his own

Thanks Marnia.

By his own admission, Ramsdale's comments regarding male ejaculation orgasm is more of an indictment against the emphasis of non-ejaculatory sex than it is against karazza. I don't think he has a problem with karazza. His problem deals with what he calls "white tantra." The masculine form of tantra predominantly practiced in the West that emphasis ejaculatory control and sexual energy movement. He claims that he has gone full circle and now he longer practices "white tantra" exercises.

As to the cause of his marital woes, its a tough argument to make without more information.

I would hate to blame every marital problem on orgasms.

I enjoyed it too, Marnia,

I must say. Gave me much food for thought and I can bind the two ends together better. Yes, in every culture and tradition there is a sort of sacred sex. But the tradition from which it stems defines its depth, colour and wholeness. For the last 2,000 years body has been demonised in the west so its sacred sex tradition is logically very young and somewhat not very well defined, yet very nice and sweet (I will try definitely :-)). And the sex addictions of all sorts in the west are a direct consequence of that denial, laymen, clerics, everybody. We threw the sexual energy out of the window, right under the ground and put two horns on its head, and it creeps inside through the door in a very strange form... We only have what we deserve, don´t we.

As I wrote at the beginning, I with my man started sacred sex in traditions where body is adored, sex is fully welcome and regarded as the main gift. This healed my troubles, my marriage and my soul fully. I feel complete, valuable and loved. Apparently different ways may lead to the same result. But because people today suffer from blocks, fragmentation and darkness, it seems to me that holistic approach with things adopted not excluded, welcomed not avoided, adored not punished is more needed today. If I have an image in my mind, I will put a flower over it, not a red X. Taoistic continuum with no beginning and no end, wu wei, if you like. Smile Sooner or later the east and west will melt into each other.

Have a wonderful time, Marnia, you are doing a great job here! Thanks G.