Hangover = a week of vacation?

Submitted by davidphd1866 on
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Here is an interesting thought that I read somewhere. Alas, I can't recall the source.

If we accept that our behavior with our wives or sweethearts deteriorates immediately after an orgasm and that this "hangover" lasts at least a week, let's examine how many orgasms we might be advised to have in a year's time.

Suppose the hangover is like taking a week's vacation away from your wife or sweetheart. After all, she is not getting your best during this hangover period.

How many weeks of vacation would your employer allow? How many weeks of quality time away from your wife or spouse should she be happy with? Most of us get only two or three weeks of vacation. Should our ladies get any different treatment?

With a one week hangover, for example:

4 orgasms per year is like 4 weeks of vacaction. Very generous of her!
2 orgasms per year is like 2 weeks of vacation. This is what most of us consider normal.
1 orgasm per month is like 12 weeks of vacation!!!! Hardly fair to her at all!
1 orgasm per week is like NEVER giving your spouse your best time. What a terrible thing!

Suppose your hangover lasts two weeks.....

2 orgasms per year is like 4 weeks of vacation!
1 orgasm per month is like 2 MONTHS of vacation!
1 orgasm per year is like the normal amount of vacation....two weeks.

Now, suppose you are like me where the hangover is very severe and you feel the effects for almost a month....

1 orgasm per year is like a month of vacation away from your spouse.

Given these assumptions, how many orgasms do you think our ladies should allow us?

David

Probably depends

on the person. In my case, where I don't seem to experience any directly noticeable crash or downtime, so the analogy wouldn't really apply in my case, though it might in yours.

Like, today, my wife and I had sex. Later, she found out our daughter got a tattoo. Now, I'm not totally against it, but I think it is something one shouldn't do lightly being that you'll have to live with it or go through a painful process to get it removed. But my wife felt angry about it. Maybe not only because in her view it is "stupid" but because she knows our daughter doesn't have a lot of money, and we tend to give her some gas money and pay for a few things like recently her car registration (I didn't have any input on that). So it may also be because she feels she's being taken advantage of when her daughter goes and spends her personal cash on something like that.

At any rate, all that to say, she was a bit angry and I picked up on it as we discussed something. And I hugged her and we talked about her anger over it. She seemed to loosen up a bit and appreciated the connection. So I don't really feel like I'm giving my wife a vacation from me because we had sex. But I've never really done that. I have my stuff that I do that she isn't involved in, but we usually spend some time every day connecting. Like, I still gave her a back rub tonight and a goodnight kiss. Having sex earlier in the day didn't stop that.

So I think it depends on the person, and probably their situation as well.

Does depend, but what about all of you?

I agree with Cole that the intervals of orgasm DO depend on the individual. Perhaps I did a poor job in framing the question.

What I would like to know is based on the individual forum member's assessment of their hangover period and their desire to please their partner, what do they think might be good intervals? In particular, I would like to see what people think if they COMBINE the desire to reduce hangovers as well as how often they think it is fair to impose such hangovers onto their partners.

In my case, the full effects of an orgasm-induced hangover linger for nearly a month. Whenever I ejaculate, it takes weeks before I am back to being FULLY loving to my wife. I can reasonably expect her to allow for such behavior a week or two a year, but for the full month it usually takes that is asking a lot. Thus, I think in my household ejaculations should be rather rare events. I find it difficult to write the number....but I have to: Once a year is probably best for me.

I would love to hear from more of you. What do YOU think is appropriate for youself in this context?

David

I look at the situation

completely differently. There's an assumption in your question that orgasm is of great benefit to both partners and that each person/couple should have as many as is "possible" for them.

May I propose a different experiment, at least for while you're rebooting? Try daily bonding behaviors (http://www.reuniting.info/lazy_way_to_stay_in_love) and forget all about orgasm for a while. It's looking like the research actually supports the idea that affectionate touch and close, trusted companionship are more beneficial to our well-being than orgasm itself. (These days couples are indirectly encouraged to focus on orgasm...and forget about bonding behaviors unless they're engaged in foreplay and headed for the Big O.)

In other words, "taking a vacation from your spouse," is really not wise. Even if you're "hungover" from orgasm, you can still manage a few minutes of daily bonding behaviors. See what they do for you when you use them every day for a month. Don't wait until you feel normal again and then go for orgasm...and start another cycle of emotional distance.

Even if you decide to include orgasm in the mix, you may find that the bonding behaviors lessen your hangover...and also have a very positive effect on your wife and your relationship. See Skeptic's blog: http://www.reuniting.info/node/3640

Logical conclusion?

Marnia,

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with you that the bonding is more important--and healthy--for the couple. You are right in that the logic of my question was geared towards "how many are ok?"

Can I assume for your line of reasoning that you feel ZERO orgasms are necessary? In other words, once we completely rid ourselves of our masturbatory habits, can--and should--we learn to enjoy bonding and love without the orgasm?

I personally believe this is the case--the male ejaculatory orgasm is not needed. My initial questioning about the "vacation" was meant to see what sort of "guidelines" one might have as they pursue the ultimate path. In other words, if we can't go "cold turkey", what is a reasonable way to think about the frequency when we consider more than just ourselves?

As always, your insights are most welcomed and informative. This site is incredible! Very active and contains very bright and thoughtful members. I am loving it.

David

I think people

should do whatever they find works for them.

That said, my hope is that couples might also experiment with at least three weeks of daily bonding behaviors, without orgasm...simply to see what it yields, or doesn't Smile , in terms of harmony and other benefits.

The three-week recommendation (also in our book) is to enable couples to get beyond the two-week neurochemical cycle of orgasm and experience a week together while free of it, and the projections it can cause (while still engaging in daily bonding behaviors). Obviously, if one has a longer cycle of recovery, then one would want to extend the time accordingly. Both partners have to be "with the program" for best results.

Gary and I voluntarily do not "go for "orgasm during our lovemaking, simply because we know through experiments Wink that it adversely affects the harmony between us, makes me bitchy ;-), and makes him feel more fatigued and a bit "foggy." It took us years to figure that out, as neither of us thought orgasm was ever a problem during our very orgasmic previous sex lives.

Each couple will have to work out frequency for themselves, but my thought is that without an extended experiment of a few weeks, they may never realize that they have some control over how they see each other.

Thanks Marnia

You are helping me to "bookend" this topic very nicely. I appreciate it. Thanks for patiently working me through it. As you can see, I have been trying hard to see what others say is a "good starting point".

I see where I must go intellectually and spiritually. I plan on at least a thee month period to start with, due to my abnormally long hangover period. After that point, I will judge based on personal feel.

I can only humbly ask for the support of others, as this will be a nice challenge.

David

How does your

sweetheart feel about the idea? Are daily bonding behaviors an option?

If you're on your own, then it's even more helpful to increase such things as exercise, meditation, time in nature, etc.

My Sweetheart wife...

... is supportive of the idea. In fact, she's more of a driving force in a certain way. For example, she is really the one who pointed out the "hangover" to me. As such, my wife really prefers that I do not orgasm during our lovemaking. Upon asking her, she sees little or no value in my orgasms period. (not in a mean spirited way, just a pragmatic one) Frankly, if left entirely to her, I would not orgasm at all--indefinately.

This is why I have been so keen on finding a good starting point for the orgasm and masturbation reduction. I intend to follow the path that appears very good for the both of us and that is the eventual elimination of orgasm as any needed--nor desired--byproduct of our lovemaking.

There is no question that our bonding experience is far better when it has been considerable time since my last orgasm. Both her and I prefer to enhance the feelings.

Thanks for asking Marnia. You really help to put a human touch to this delicate topic.

David

Sounds like

you two are naturals for the "karezza" approach. Did you see this article? http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/what_is_karezza There are various links to books by others on the subject at the bottom.

Yes, it's often the partners who notice the hangovers. Wink Somehow they're always easier to spot in others than in ourselves. *chuckle* Guess that's just the way projection works.

Here's to harmony! Smile

Karezza indeed!

I quite agree. The Karezza Method is most certainly the prescription for the two of us. I really look forward to initiating such a practice.

The part that sort of scares me is the realization that the ejaculatory orgasm is really something that is not necessary and that I need to do a lot of work to "reboot" my brain to no longer expect it. And I understand your chuckle, it is typically the spouse who recognizes certain behaviors. It goes double for us, too, because my wife genuinely hates the "mess" involved as well as the hangover.

By the way, I read some of your words on the "how to's" to get your partner involved. Very useful!

I have made it my goal to read this entire site. Might take me a while, but there are so many nuggets of gold here that I can't afford to miss any of them.

David

To answer your question more directly...

Since I focused on one aspect, but never really got there. :)

Yet, in a sense, I suppose I did answer it, in that it does depend on the individual. In my case, though, I'm still not sure what the optimum time would be.

I think (hope) I'll know more once I've successfully gone a month without orgasm, and can evaluate what benefits I see as a result, both within myself and the relationship with my wife.

But my wife isn't really on board with the Karezza idea yet. I'm waiting for her to get around to reading Marnia's book, which she hasn't attacked yet. But her initial thoughts are that its weird, and she feels like she enjoys it more when I orgasm. And perhaps the fact that I don't seem to have any visible down time might contribute to that, at least she's never indicated that she thought I was more distant/non-engaging after sex, or even since I tend to have an orgasm every day, on any particular day (maybe she's used to my constant down time though!)

But i did have a thought. While I don't see a lot of hangover in her, I do notice a tendency to not connect with me as much after sex. And while I don't always have an orgasm every time we have sex, she almost always does as I give her one, usually before I go in, because sex itself doesn't do it for her. And once we're done, while we might still hug and make contact, we've rarely done it more than once in a day, or even in a few days after that. The only exceptions being anniversaries or any time we're going to be alone for a few days away from home. But at home, it is rare that we have sex more than once a week.

And now I'm wondering, if perhaps giving her an orgasm every time might be ensuring that she has no desire for me sexually for at least a week, if not longer. She's also told me that she masturbates around twice a week. Now, I don't know how to go about bringing her around to this idea so that she is cooperative. She feels masturbation is natural and fine, and that she wants an orgasm if we're going to have sex. But maybe her getting close to three orgasms a week might account for some of her low libido. IOW, if she didn't masturbate during the week, would she be drawn to having sex with me more often?

Hard to say without getting her to cooperate with the experiment with me. She's aware of what I'm doing. But she's sort of ambivalent to the whole idea. As a matter of fact, she seems worried that our son wants to not masturbate at all, that it might be a bad thing for him, because she sees it as natural and normal.

So it is a complex question to ask. I've been having near daily or more than once a day orgasms for most of my life, and don't know much different. But that is why I'm hoping this experiment of going a month without will help me to see where I may be affected by frequent orgasms that I'm not aware of because I'm so used to my current state as being "normal." If I went with how often my wife appears to want to have sex, I'd have sex about twice a month. Based on the two-week cycle, that would mean neither of us would ever totally get out of the unbalanced chemicals stage.

Hum, I'm wondering, thinking. If after my month experiment, I decide I want to drastically cut down on my masturbation use, maybe eliminate it in total preference for sex with her, if she'd agree to not masturbate as well, and save it for me too, and see if that wouldn't make some significant changes. Perhaps after my experiment, I can propose it to her as an experiment for a month or two, and see what we discover in our interactions with each other. That might be a way to help her discover this concept on her own terms, and then with increased interest if she notices some positive benefits, might read Marnia's book with more interest.

But until I do this experiment, it will be hard for me to really know what that balance is for us, or should be. If I had my way, it would be at least once a week. If my body had its way, it would be daily. Wink

Surely trying

"a weird thing" for three weeks wouldn't be that big a deal...even for a skeptical spouse. Especially once she understands that the issue isn't "sin" or "shame," but rather regulation of our pair-bonder brains.

It would be really interesting to see if she comes around if she comes less. Smile

Excellent points Cole

I appreciate that you are going through some similar aspects to your sex life as I am. And I thank you for taking the time for such a well crafted response.

One point I found particularly interesting was your mention of the "If I went with how often my wife appears to want to have sex, I'd have sex about twice a month. Based on the two-week cycle, that would mean neither of us would ever totally get out of the unbalanced chemicals stage." Do you think her apparent interest is merely coincidental? The more I learn about the 14 day hangover, the more I see how the patterns play out in my house. My wife, too, seems to want sex about once every two weeks. I'd love to cum every day, but I'd be a terrible wreck if I did.

It looks like her and I are ebbing towards a once a quarter period for me, and she will take her orgasms as they....uh....come.

David

A combination of things

I think plays into it.

One, we tend to say that Saturday mornings are our time together, but she often has client work scheduled on Saturday mornings too. So it ends up being every couple of weeks or so. Occasionally we many only have sex once a month.

However, she says she's often masturbating a couple times a week. So throw in the two times we have sex, and that makes it around ten times a month for her.

Now, without any restraint, I'll have an orgasm a day, sometimes more. Like after coming off my week abstinence experiment, I've done it twice a day for the last two days. Beginning next week I think I'll cap it no more than once a day though I'm sure by the time I get to that point, it will probably be getting there. So I do tend to have an orgasm every day left to my own devices. But I know now that this is not a good thing, I need to pull that down, even though I don't have any noticeable crash as such.

I think how frequently we have sex is due to her exhaustion level. She stays busy, and she has shows she likes to watch in the evenings. So it tends she is dead tired by the time she's ready to go to bed. So she is rarely ever open to having sex in the evenings. I think if she made an effort to get in bed earlier, she'd be more open to sex during the week. Probably not every night by any means, but at least once or twice a week I would think.

So I think it is part that her libido isn't as strong as mine so she simply doesn't want it that often, and she tends to not carve out time for it other than Saturday, and even there that gets sucked up by other priorities regularly, and she is masturbating, which indicates she does want some of the feelings on a fairly regular basis. But I think in her mind, it is less work on her part and can end it quickly if she needs to, to masturbate rather than call me back to join in on the fun (assuming I'm around when it happens).

But I think she doesn't think about it like I do. I mean, I see an opportunity and I want to take it. It is high on my list of things to do, unless I'm still recovering from having already done it. But she naturally only does it a couple times a week, which indicates to me that she probably passes up lots of opportunity to do it. And she doesn't often come to me when she has an opportunity and say, "Hey, I want sex" (in so many words). That does happen on occasion, but usually I'm the one that initiates it.

Now, we'll see what my month long abstinence does to her. And if at the end of it, she'll be open to doing a mutual abstain from masturbation and only have an orgasm with each other in sex for at least a month, and make note of any changes/improvements in our own relationship with each other. I'll present it as an experiment, and see if she's game. She may not be, but I'm now wondering if she cut out masturbation, how much more often would she want to have sex. But I think if I'm abstaining at the same time as she is, she'll be more open to that. In part because she doesn't like me taking a long time. And if anything, this last week-long abstaining shows that if I've gone without a few days, I'm easy to get to orgasm. Part of what she doesn't like is going at it for thirty minutes, and not ever really getting there, and we end when she was tired of it several minutes ago and would rather be doing something else. So that's why masturbation is more appealing to her, she doesn't have to wait for me to get to orgasm or give up trying. Once she's had hers, she can get on with her day. So if I'm abstaining, then I should generally respond more readily to her.

So I think I may be able to sell that experiment, and see how it goes.

Maybe

you could sell the idea on the theory that masturbation maybe one cause of her fatigue...and just see if she'd like to experiment with not doing it, but snuggling a lot with you, for a few weeks to see if she feels more energy.

She might LIKE it when you don't cum

Cole,

I am following your narrative with great interest. There are many parallels with my life (not equals, but parallels) so I feel like I am darned near in your shoes.

There is something you may consider as a means to help get your wife to go along with your experiment: She may LIKE it when you don't cum. I realize you mentioned that she sort of works at it, but please think about how she might respond if you tell her honestly that you feel you might be better off not cumming so much. Once I told my wife this she was liberated in a way I could never have imagined. This new perspective truly changed her and now she is of the mind-set that I should no longer ejaculate. She likes my behavior more, she hates the mess of ejaculation and she disliked the "burden" of having to help me to cum. In other words, make sure there is something in it for HER to go along with your experiment. After she sees the positive change in you, she might later try it herself. It certainly slowed my wife's masturbation down....and almost eliminated mine entirely.

Her, on the other hand, still likes her weekly or twice monthly orgasm.

David

I have brought it up to her

but she's acted resistive to the idea. When we do, she wants me to have an orgasm, and thought the idea strange and odd to not have that as a goal. So, I don't want to push it either. That's why I'm thinking about offering this experiment once I'm done with my own, as something she might accept and it could show her that maybe there is more to this than she immediately perceives.

In essence, my wife didn't like the idea. And it takes two to tango with that. So my thinking is if I can get her to not masturbate along with me for a month, and only orgasm when we have sex, it might not only show her the value of not masturbating, but provide some verification that maybe there is more to all this abstinence stuff and avoiding orgasm than she originally thought.

Plus, she may still read Marnia's book, which will do a better job than I have explaining what is going on. But in the end, I've brought it up, her initial reaction wasn't positive as your wife's was, and so I'm waiting for her to either see the results in me, and/or decide to give it a try and see what happens within herself, at some point.

You are too kind Cole,

My wife is only "half" there. She is utterly comfortable with me not orgasming. In fact, she prefers that I don't. And not only prefers that I don't....she prefers that I don't...ever.

She, on the other hand, is simply addicted to orgasms. She (Like I would too) exhibits the classics signs...gets cranky if she isn't having one, tired after, etc.

Soon I plan on showing her Marnia's ten minute You Tube video. Meanwhile, I continue to retain semen....and I have never felt better.

Hang in there...we both have to.

David

You guys

are angels of patience. On behalf of your ornery spouses, I thank you. Smile It's *very* hard to see one's own perception shift.

Besides, Cole, we women are programmed to entice those potent little sperm out of safe-keeping, so we get a buzz from helping our partner's orgasm, just as you guys do.

In any case, I agree that it's best not to try to hammer on a partner. Instead use indirect methods...short articles she might relate to, etc. There are lots to choose from here, and many are blog posts on others sites, so if you see something you want to share let me know and I may be able to find a link that doesn't lead directly to this site. Wink

You're an angel of teaching

Marnia, thanks for helping Cole and I get progress on our understanding. I have learned more about myself and my relationship in the past two days than I have in ten years. I am the proverbial sponge soaking it up.

You are right about the indirect approach. I know my wife "Sally" responds well to the female voice. She belongs to several women's networking groups, so I am sure she's going to find your video interesting. I just have to make sure her mood is proper and the timing is right. Even then, I won't push for a result, just the planting of the seed.

David