Our Exploration of Tantra WARNING EXPLICIT (Old post)

Submitted by Virgil on
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Hello,

I wanted to introduce myself to the group. I am a 47 year old man married to the same lovely woman for 20 plus years. My wife and I have developed an interest in sacred sexuality/Tantra and have been practicing male sexual continence with orgasm denial for some time now. We evolved into this over time not to cure addiction or because of any relationship issues but instead to enhance our mutual pleasure in the bedroom.

We kind of slowly gravitated toward male ejaculatory orgasm denial quite frankly because my wife has a higher capacity sex drive than I do and I suffer greatly from “post release depression” after ejaculating.

In our early days as a couple I lived in hog heaven because my lady wanted sex at least as much as I did and we spent countless hours exploring nearly every loving act two people could share together.

Depending on where she was in her monthly cycle (lots more amorous during 5-7 days surrounding ovulation) she might want sex every day for three or four days in a row then every other day or every third day for the majority of the rest of the month (when she was not having her period).

I have always been a prodigious ejaculator and the older I got the longer it took to recharge my batteries to the point where I was really horny and hungry for sex again and my wife could be challenging to keep up with at times.

I have always been a firm believer in never refusing the desires of my lovely wife and gladly used cunnilingus or toys to keep her happy when my tank was empty and she still wanted more than I could give her. As much as I enjoyed "servicing" her in this way she was never really comfortable with what she saw as an imbalance in our relationship.

In our earlier years together my wife insisted in full equity in the bedroom and felt that if she had an orgasm that she owed me one so there was a lot of short but very intense sessions where she would have one orgasm followed by my orgasm. We would then have to wait until I recharged my batteries for another go.

When I investigated the Eastern philosophy of Tantra and read about men consciously withholding semen during the sex act and actively managing scores of concubines and having full sexual congress with woman after woman and bringing each to orgasm again and again I could not bring myself to believe it was possible. After all I was a very healthy and active man and I struggled at times to keep up with just one woman.

It wore on me until I decided I just had to try it for myself. As an experiment I planned a sexy interlude with my wife with extended foreplay focusing entirely on her pleasure, only entering her after she was smoking hot.

It was difficult to overcome the years of conditioning I had been subjected to – as most males are biologically and culturally conditioned from an early age that ejaculation was "the" goal during sex. I would normally hold off only as long as it took my wife to reach her orgasm then finish myself off within a few minutes.

This time I resisted the urge and simply languished within her, paying close attention to her responses. Instead of thrusting she seemed to want me to stay in deep and grind her clitoris against me (hello coital alignment technique). I obliged and within a few minutes she was coming, and as I was still hard after scant moments she was coming again, and then again.

I was astonished, as she was not always able to reliably reach orgasm during intercourse (in our early days over 20 years ago), to find my wife was multi – orgasmic. Most of her orgasms up to this point were from oral/manual stimulation. At this point my nuts were ready to explode so I feigned a Charlie Horse in my leg and withdrew. I made a big deal out of trying to walk it off to no avail and finally told her we would have to finish me tomorrow.

The following day I was so horny my balls ached and I was almost frantic with need but I wanted to see if we could repeat the day before. I once again made a ceremony of our activities slowly caressing and massaging her body until she was writhing and moaning, teasing her until she begged me to mount her. I slid in deep and made a point of riding high within her, applying as much pressure as I could right on her clit.

Staying deep without the usual thrusting I found myself in no danger of coming and was able to focus on her response to me and was able to match her every bump and grind as she came over and over again. I was so into her coming in this way I completely forgot about my own pleasure.

After she was sated she rewarded me with the blowjob of my life, sucking and licking with incredible animation, finally sliding a finger in my ass rubbing my prostate as I experienced the most utterly intense orgasm of my entire life.

We came to understand that both of us benefited when I did not ejaculate right away and in subsequent sessions we began extending the time between my orgasms from days to weeks and beyond to the point I experienced my first male "expanded" orgasmic response that is much touted in Tantra. A paradigm shift took place at this time and instead of ejaculatory orgasm being the goal I now looked upon it as a roadblock to experiencing higher levels of pleasure.

At this time everything seemed to click and all the talk about energy exchange during the sex act that Tantra and sacred sexuality described began to make sense. We continued to build upon what we learned through experiencing this process and soon found out that my wife's orgasmic response had been limited for many years because I simply could not match her sexually. In my humble opinion no man is the equal of a woman in the bedroom under normal conditions. I found that by using the Tantric philosophy of continence this leveled the playing field.

Since ejaculating was no longer our goal my wife knew I would remain hard and last as long as it took to insure her total satisfaction and this gave her the freedom to fully relax into the sex act and really connect with her body and explore her sexual response to the fullest. She began having multiple orgasms regularly during intercourse and things continue to develop even now as she has long strings of expanding waves of orgasms that she describes as ten to fifteen orgasms end to end followed by a short plateau then repeat the cycle three to four more times during a single session of intercourse. Some begin as clitoral and some are triggered by "G" spot stimulation. She has said if she had to put a number to it she regularly has 30 to 40 orgasms every time we make love. A very wild and fulfilling ride indeed. The sheer intensity of the female orgasmic response is mind bending and I am just glad to be a part of her experience. My wife insists this happens because I bring so much more energy to our lovemaking these days now that I no longer ejaculate. I am always ready when she wants it and it doesn't end until she says stop. I do get a little perverse pleasure that she is now the one that begs me to stop at the end of a session. I do love to be able to please my woman.

Limiting (eliminating) my ejaculatory orgasms was the best thing that ever happened to us, bringing us to a level of intimacy few people share. I no longer masturbate at all, preferring to save all my sex energies for my lovely wife and our activities together.

We found the greatest pleasure a man could experience was the endorphin high that occurs during extended tease and denial sessions. That is what happened in our case. My wife has me completely programmed not to ejaculate but to instead savor the incredible endorphin high and I am beginning to be able to regularly experience a sort of multiple orgasmic response (similar to what women are capable of if I am correct) I would describe as waves of bliss that can last for many minutes - we have gone as long as 10 minutes and more until I was literally so exhausted I had to stop - without conventional male burst pattern orgasm being a part of it at all. It appears that we have found the way to trick my body into elevating endorphin levels far beyond what most men experience during orgasm and this is very, very satisfying. Instead of the act being over with a brief intense squirt it can last as long as you want it to.

Both my wife and I believe this has created a more balanced dynamic between us in the bedroom and the increased level of intimacy has carried over into all other aspects of our relationship. We are having way more sex now (and way more satisfying sex) in our forties then we ever had in our 20's and 30's. And our intimate connection and level of bonding is stronger than ever.

I was very intrigued by our real life experiences and seeking the science that could help us understand it.

More than any other site or resource I have seen so far Reuniting speaks to the biochemical activity in the body that drives human behavior. Based on what I have read here the consensus is that both men and woman both should avoid “orgasm” and all activities that raise dopamine levels in order to avoid the addiction that results from extreme endorphin cycling.

The reuniting.info/science page really illustrates the neurochemical effects of orgasm and explains what causes the crash and burn effect of the Dopamine fallout that men experience after we ejaculate. I know this is what drives my issues with “post release depression.” I cannot however make this same connection with women as our (my wife and I’s) real life experience illustrates something different is going on.

At a neurochemical level, the sensation of orgasm occurs primarily in the brain. A massive release of dopamine (“the pleasure/reward” hormone) takes place in both the female and the male which is closely followed by the release of the neurotransmitter prolactin. The effect of prolactin is very different and much more profound and devastating for the man than it is for the woman and is directly tied to the amount of testosterone (or other male only factor “MOF”) in the body. Prolactin utilizes testosterone (or “MOF”) in a catalytic fashion to block the effects of dopamine and oxytocin. Because a man has many times the amount of testosterone (or “MOF”) that a woman does prolactin literally burns up all the feel good and bonding hormones within seconds of the male orgasm so the few seconds of incredible dopamine high is followed by a big crash—as the man’s nerve cell receptors “down regulate” to defend against further excess and promote equilibrium. Mankind has made the connection between a drug or alcohol high and a hangover, but we seldom consciously make the connection between conventional male orgasm and a hangover. This effect is minimized in the woman because there is very little testosterone )or “MOF”) for the prolactin to interact with, so the effects of pleasure and bonding endorphins last much, much longer and many woman claim a halo effect or afterglow that can last for some hours, even days.

We found this “science” backed up our real life experience as my wife was and still is easily capable of multiple orgasms and has experienced as many as ten expanded events in a row which is simply unreal – but even more amazing is that she can experience this pleasure without the dopamine “fallout” that I experience. I have called her the “energizer bunny” because she can just keep on going, and going, and going. It doesn’t make sense that women could be this multi-orgasmic if the same “crash and burn” dopamine fallout mechanism that affects men was also active in women. From our experience it is not – and if it is active at all certainly not to the same degree that men experience.

I may be off base here but find myself at odds with the perspective on dopamine driven addiction. I do believe many (most) men fall into this trap so it certainly exists but I cannot agree on the “cure” for the “affliction” by avoiding any and all activities that would “elevate” dopamine levels. I mean you can elevate this pleasure endorphin by eating a piece of your favorite cake – not of the same magnitude as full sexual congress with lots of T&D play but are we to forgo all pleasurable activities for the sake of avoidance of potential addiction? In my humble opinion you avoid the huge dopamine “cycling” and the resulting addiction in the process of avoiding male ejaculatory orgasm. There is no real reason for men to limit dopamine elevation as long as we take care to avoid the fallout.

I also do not believe women should have to give up orgasms because they do not experience any where near (if any at all) the magnitude of dopamine fallout that we men do – and therefore are no where near as susceptible to dopamine driven addictive behavior.

The Coolidge effect is very real – I just don’t see the neurological effect of orgasm affecting women as profoundly as it does men. Orgasms are for different genetically driven purposes in men than they are in women. For men the orgasm is the motivation to deposit the sperm. Once the sperm is delivered there is no purpose for more pleasure – no reason for erection or arousal. Hence the shut down mechanism. In women the orgasm (remember they can have more than one) is motivation to be receptive to more than one male to increase genetic variety (remember we started out as communal “pack” animals). Hence no shut down mechanism. If we are honest with ourselves it is clear nature programmed us for non-monogamy to insure genetic diversity. It is also clear that our “genetic engineering” is a huge component in relationship disharmony in modern times.

I have always approached sexuality with my partner from a perspective of maximizing the “pleasure” for both of us and building and sharing the energy of joining. To me a woman generates maximum sexual “energy” and maximum pleasure in the process of multiple orgasms and this should always be the goal for her. For a man on the other hand maximum energy and maximum pleasure is cultivated by extended stimulation without release so the dopamine fallout is avoided. My wife and I found it surprisingly simple to learn to manipulate the biochemical effects of extreme tease and denial for our benefit by taking a slow deliberate approach with lots of affectionate play time. We focused totally on our “pleasure” and driving both of us to higher levels of “pleasure” and did not worry about “orgasm” (though my lovely wife was coming like a rocket because we were so active). The key to outwitting my male biology was to focus on releasing a steady supply of heart-opening oxytocin (also known as “the cuddle hormone”) and not permit the dopamine fallout that occurs from conventional male ejaculatory orgasm.

Though most people don’t realize it a man’s dopamine levels steadily rise from the point of initial arousal and erection and get higher and higher the closer he gets to orgasm. This is nature’s way to insure the man continues until the semen is released. If the release is delayed, the body instinctively increases the concentration of pleasure endorphins relentlessly in the pursuit of the orgasm. If orgasm is denied, but stimulation is maintained to keep the man just under the semen release point you can trick his body into producing and discharging more of the pleasure endorphins than are ever normally released during an ejaculatory orgasm. Once the serum levels of these pleasure endorphins reach a certain saturation threshold a state of euphoria takes place that can be described as a “whole body experience” or “Tantric Waves of Bliss”, etc. These “whole body orgasms” are as delicious as “burst orgasms” (for me anyways) and even before I had my first one with my wife my dopamine levels were so elevated from being repeatedly taken to such high states of arousal I found I wanted this more than I wanted to have an ejaculatory orgasm. There was just more pleasure in it.

My wife and I have expanded on this to the fullest and find the intimacy and bonding that result from “sharing” this much pleasure go way beyond what most couples ever experience. It is that good.

I think it is kind of neat we can use the power of our minds to overcome our genetic engineering and engage in an “enlightened” approach to sex without male ejaculatory orgasm that can provide more pleasure for the man and the woman. The fact that this type of sex also promotes pair bonding and monogamy like nothing else provides a huge boost to relationships in these troubled times.

Our journey has taken us some years and much experimentation to get to where we are today. Since our approach is a little different I am very interested to hear what others think about this. I believe our “philosophy” loosely follows what was the original intent of ancient eastern Tantric sexuality – it definitely works for my wife and I – and I wonder if there is any science to support this position.

Great site by the way – huge wealth of knowledge here.

Best regards,
Virgil

Thanks, Virgil

Always great to have other perspectives. I didn't think I was being affected by orgasm either for many years, so I was surprised to discover that I was. That's why I suggest that couples try three weeks of karezza and then see what they notice when they compare it with conventional sex.

People should do whatever they like with the information here...including disagree with it. Smile

Welcome Virgil

Great to hear your voice. I have appreciated your advice from the other support group we belong to. My wife and I are doing well, little bumps along the road, but otherwise well.

David

Thanks, Marnia

Thank you Marnia for the welcome – and hello once again David. Glad you and your wife are doing ok. I hope I did not come across as adversarial with my post (not my intention) just looking to be thorough in my communication because our take is a little different. And yes, I do have a tendency to be rather long winded. I have the utmost respect for what you guys have done on this site and the value of this body of work and the potential to help people maintain/improve relationships cannot be overstated. You guys are definitely to be applauded for this effort. I can only hope that relating my own meandering experience will add value to your work in some small way.

Marnia you stated that you originally did not think that orgasm affected you in a negative way – but now have changed your view on this. I would be very interested on what brought about this change in perspective for you as I don’t see any “negative” changes in my wife as a result of orgasm. If you have posted on this before please tell me where to look for it.

One of the things that our exploration of Sacred Sexuality and Tantra taught my wife and I is to really get in touch with what is going on in our own bodies. To truly live, feel, and experience the moment if you will. So we have really turned the focus inward to understand ourselves better and how our individual behavior affects our interpersonal connection and overall relationship.

I always marveled at the sheer power of a woman’s sexuality and how unfair it seemed to be that my lovely wife was capable of seemingly endless multiple orgasms whereas I was a “one and done” kind of guy. On top of this a as a big “shooter” the effects of ejaculatory orgasm seemed to hit me harder than most, leaving me lethargic, grumpy, and distant for several days or more with my libido taking up to a week to return to the point where I was really “hungry” for sex again. Hello “Post Release Depression” and all the negative effects of endorphin cycling as described on this site.

Based on my experience this effect seems to be tied to testosterone or some other male only factor as my wife is not affected in this way. She is like the energizer bunny with seemingly endless energy and a very consistent playful, jovial demeanor. And orgasm, regardless of how many she has, does not seem to affect her negatively in this way at all.

With all of us “looking” with a little different “lens” I am wondering that even with similar bio-chemical effects taking place in the body our “perception” of what is going on leads us to interpret it differently. That is why I am hopeful others can provide feedback so I can develop a deeper understanding of what we have experienced.

Thanks, and best regards;
Virgil

Hmmm...

My thought is that everyone is different, and that there are probably some lucky "outliers" who don't get hit with noticeable effects. (In the binge research on rats, one of the scientists reported that in each group of rats tested there was usually one who didn't show the brain changes that dampen the pleasure response afterward.)

I'd say that I get a version of what you get hit with, only I feel the effects the most the second week after orgasm. (No, having more orgasms doesn't solve the problem for me Wink Believe me, I tried that solution.) I have a close friend who's a champion multiple-orgasmer and she, too, notices emotional chaos during the days following. I suspect it's more common than we realize because it's so easy to blame the mood changes on others, such as our mates, and see them as the problem.

I can't help being curious about what you two would experience if you both conserved your energy and channeled it upward, but it doesn't sound like you'll be trying that any time soon. *chuckle*

most excellent

most excellent that Virgil has joined our group. Virgil's willingness to share personal experience and look at it analytically has been a great learning experience for me. Combine this with Marnia and Gary's research makes the rest of us readers the true beneficiaries.....

I am going to keep a keen eye open for when the two of you exchange ideas....

Reads like an introductory course.

Hey Virgil can you recommend any books on this topic? Fascinating.

@Marnia when you had multiple orgasm's and then got irritable...you said tended to unwittingly blame things on your mate? That's a paraphrase and is probably a little inarticulate but I'm attempting to learn. Did this drive you apart? I would think a master of tantric denial of orgasm who has learned to provide a woman with multiple orgasms would be hard to leave. They sure don't grow on trees here in the great state of New Jersey. For the record, I still want to try Karezza if the opportunity presents itself.

Based on this post one thing is agreed upon by all parties and that is men can benefit from denial of ejaculation. More cold showers!

I have had some wonderful

lovers, but still got irritable. Just as Virgil had wonderful lovers and still got irritable.

It's a neurochemical thing, I'm pretty sure, because the moodiness and overreactions stopped right around the two-week mark.

For the record, I was a proud and intense orgasmer, but not so big on multiples. However, my closest friend was an effortless multiple orgasmer, and she also noticed moodiness over the days following. I got cranky and judgmental. She tended to get weepy and demanding. But each of us has a much larger range of unpleasant post-O behaviors. Wink And it was these behaviors that helped create separation in our relationships. (Take-away message: if your next girlfriend gets uncharacteristically witchy at any point during the two weeks after orgasm...you may just be TOO GOOD a lover. Don't lose a great partner just because you're overstimulating her! Get her to try karezza before you give up. Smile )

Bottom line: great sex, in our case, didn't do a thing to prevent the fallout. That's why everyone needs to make their own experiments to find out how their brain, and their lover's brain, handles intense sexual stimulation. My symptoms were much more noticeable during week two, by the way. That's one reason it took me so long to work this out.

You're right that hot sex can be addictive and can "hook" someone on their lover...for a time. But I was just reading a study yesterday that confirmed that "obsessional love" was more likely to end a relationship sooner than romantic or companionate love. An addict wants a lover for the "fixes" he provides. If anything threatens the supply...trouble often brews. This demand for performance is fun and flattering at first, but can become wearing. I know that when you're single you can't conceive of a partner wanting "too much sex," but if this has ever happened to you...you know what a turn-off it can be after a while.

This is not to say that all lovers suffer from fallout. Who knows? But I suspect it's more common than sexologists assume.

obsessional love...

I think that describes a lot of my relationships. In fact I unconsciously would *only* date women like this because of the certainty that *she* wouldn't leave. So I was free to leave whenever...with a whole big helping of that Trouble brewed up.

Speaking of which here's a short story. The first young woman I started dating this go round has a very petite frame and is of Indian extraction (not Native American, from India.) Her parents are traditionally protective and I find this a huge turn on. The fact is they won't know about me at all, or even that she's dating a man, because I'm a pale skin and not an Indian man. This woman is a 28 year old architect that has a good job in the city (nyc.) I'm very attracted to her smallness and I could see myself getting in a relationship and she seems completely into me. Here's the prob: She's a virgin. No orgasms are on the table for quite some time.

I feel like this is part of the pattern I describe above. With her limited experience if we ever did have sex I would be her first...and you never forget your first. It could very possibly set up an "obsessional" type of situation. I'm trying to beware of that even as I seem to tumble headlong toward her, barely without any resistance.

Yet, since I've met this lovely little lady, I've already had some fun with other women. None of them give me the powerful emotions and "neuro-chemical buzz" that she does even WITH orgasms. Granted we've only dated for just under a month, not long after I started experimenting with reduced orgasms, complete abstinence from porn and attempted abstinence from masturbation (for the most part successful.) I have also talked to her about Karezza and she seems into the idea.

This woman could be the love of my life, but for the fact that I'm still talking to (and occasionally hooking up with) other women. I know I'm not ready to settle. Thanks for writing back.

DC

You say its a neurochemical

You say its a neurochemical thing, Marnia. I'd be interested to know how you would describe the Coolidge Effect in energetic or soul terms. Try watching the documentary "Healing the Luminous Body" (which is EXCELLENT) and let me know if you might be able to explain the phenomenon in more than just neurochemical terms. We are more than neurochemistry. My take on it is that we are going through a spiritual challenge at this moment in history, and the neurochemical changes that need to happen have energetic and soul-level correlations. What is your theory expressed in purely energetic or soul terms?

I look forward to listening to "Healing the Luminous Body"

But here's a short answer for now. I agree that more than neurochemistry is at work. In fact, my thoughts on the spiritual significance of the practice are included ad nauseum elsewhere on the site. (Anyone who's interested can PM me for a list.)

Basically, I think the significance of karezza is that it's one of the most efficient ways to engender a subconscious sense of wholeness, while at the same time forestalling two of the biggest sources of a sense of lack (which are uncomfortable "self-sufficiency," and sex that sets us on a subtle neurochemical roller coaster ride). Lack, in turn, distorts our perception in countless ways on this planet (scarcity, defensiveness, preoccupation with seeking material plane comforts, denial of our oneness, self-medicating with whatever, fear of a punishing divinity, etc.), and gives rise to duality (spiritual blindness).

Since our thoughts, feelings and expectations help mold our collective reality, this means that engendering a sense of wholeness has a major influence on our 3-D experience. Ultimately, that has no effect on our True Identity as sparks of the Divine (or so I believe), but it is apparently a lot easier to awaken from a "happy dream," which is closer to the Reality of our oneness, than from a miserable dream of separation and defensiveness - because fear strengthens the ego (which I define as the part of us that thinks comfort lies in unhealthy separation) and oneness and union with the Divine seem fearful.

I believe in the idea that heightened spiritual awareness is a good thing because it restores our sense of direction spiritually, and therefore any practice that creates feelings of inner wholeness, abundance and safety is a spiritual practice. Karezza is just particularly efficient because it helps overcome both our desire to remain separate egos, and our tendency to set off subtle "separation bombs" in our intimate relationships.

Wow

Ok that's the kind of stuff I like to hear now.

Fear strengthens the ego - sounds like Yoda, so I did a bit of googling, and apparently "He is revealed in the liner notes to the DVD box-set to have had over 300 wives during his lifetime, each one more fragrant than the last."

I wouldn't exactly say its

I wouldn't exactly say its accurate to describe a man "providing" multiple orgasms to a woman, even if his stamina is important for just how many. "Providing" makes it sound like they are his sole responsibility, which isn't totally the case. My sense is that many women who are multi-orgasmic orgasm fairly easily, and at least in my case it doesn't take a very long time to build up to the first one, much less the second. Of course, the longer he can go the more can be had, but its possible to have a few within the time frame of a normal lovemaking session and normal stamina in the man.

It hasn't been at all hard for me to leave men I had multiple orgasms with. There was one guy in particular who needed his masculinity confirmed so badly with orgasms that I literally broke up with him within a few days of the last time we had sex, where I had had the most orgasms of any night with him. My body just said, "Enough of this guy, I have nothing more to give him." It was not, "He provided me with so many orgasms, how could i leave him?" Most women who are multi-orgasmic, I'd gather, know that the capacity is theirs, possible to be enjoyed with most men, whether those men go forever or have just average stamina, big dicks or small. That said, of course its not possible if the guy comes literally a few seconds after getting inside. But in my experience when that happens, its because the guy is nervous, stressed, or because the woman is doing everything she can to tip him over, and this will usually resolve itself. I actually think that the stamina that some men are so proud of has something to do with the ability of the woman to receive the charge and channel it. The stamina of a man is, in this case, "provided" by the woman as much as multiple orgasms are "provided" by the man. It's a mutual kinda thing!

My experience says that the emotional context of orgasms affects how intense the hangover. Orgasms that emerge effortlessly and with love have very different effects for me than those experienced in sex that is more performance-driven and emotionally remote, ie, mechanical.

That's a welcome observation

It's also funny how I automatically put it in the context of "super virile male" "provides" a woman with orgasms. One of the reasons I'm on here is to change my attitudes towards women and sex, even those attitudes I didn't know I had.

Your emphasis on the mutuality of the act is in line with all the teachings I've tried to employ the past few months. Also I find it humorous that you dumped the guy that gave you so many orgasms. It's very instructive to me as a single guy that it had something to do with his needing to have his "masculinity confirmed." I fell into this trap at various times in my life.

An ugly obsession with how "hot" the girl I was with was so I could impress my friends is difficult to admit and I think all too common among younger males with low self esteem. We are always made to feel like we are a nobody if we aren't dating the women who populate MTV or the billboards we see everyday. In the movies the hero always "gets the girl." We are taught sexism from a very young age. I acted this way while holding onto contradictory leftist views and considering myself a "good feminist man." Haha yeah right. It's what you do that matters not what you say you do. I have some evolving to do yet but I haven't acted like that in awhile or cared really about what anyone thinks of the woman who has chosen me or whom I choose to be around.

Thanks for responding it is appreciated.

Listen to Hotspring

as she is right on point on this topic. We are all responsible for our own orgasms (or lack of them :) :) ) and a man does not "provide" multiple orgasms to his partner due to size or superhuman stamina. Yes as Hotspring has indicated stamina is a factor (if you happen to be using your penis - but there are other "options" that serve equally as well to get her there) and is largely due to the interaction of the participants. As a man who has done this I am saying the best you can do is provide the loving environment and presence (be connected) to enable your partner to relax into the experience and allow the orgasms to take place.

Haha the funniest thing....

...about all this to me is we are discussing multiple orgasms in women from the point of view of a man who has decided not to have any! I regard that as kind of selfless. Honesty I feel that way because it hasn't done anything for me yet. It *has* left me damn well frustrated with entire days of blue balls which I never thought possible. I've had women I've dated ask me to my face "Why would you want to do that?!" (Forgo porn/masturbation/orgasm) To a guy who hasn't studied this the past three decades this is still a radical concept.

My intention wasn't really to say men give orgasms to women and women aren't part of the picture. I don't really believe that. I admit it came out that way in my post, whatever my intention was, it was implied and it did reveal a misconception I had on this subject. This furthers my understanding of how to have sex in a different way from what the mainstream is doing.

I really just wanted to learn more about this practice, that's what's important to me and why I've quit masturbating and porn. (Haven't quit sex though.) I'm sure it will take a long time and lots of experimenting. I am still single for the time being so one can't be blamed too harshly for thinking that a man who denies his orgasms, in order to make multiples available for a woman who wants that, is kinda special and a woman might want to stick around a guy like that.

Hotspring didn't seem to think it was a factor for her in keeping a guy around, but she's not the only woman in the world so it could be true for another woman like your wife maybe? In fact Hotspring said she dumped a dude who was so into giving her orgasms that he must have had his self esteem riding on whether or not she came a lot so it didn't seem to work for him at all. Bottom line I'm trying to find a girlfriend man (if I haven't found her already). I'm glad for all the advice I can get from as many of the good people on here practicing bonding based sex as possible.

Besides...in your original post you were talking about some sultan cat back in the day who could have sex with multiple women in his harem in the same day (no refractory period) and still, um, get it up. My imagination took it the rest of the way and that was the thrust of my question to you. (pun intended) Thanks for writing Virgil I find your experience fascinating and inspiring and I appreciate the feedback. If I'm "religious" about anything anymore it is to stay lighthearted and keep a sense of humor regarding this huge sea change in sexual practice...otherwise it will suck too bad and I'll quit. I've got to keep reading about how cool things could be if I am able to maintain it.

Well yeah this whole thread

Well yeah this whole thread is sortov silly because I don't go after orgasms like that anymore, so they're just observations from a past lifestyle. The guy I dumped because I had too many orgasms with him met me when I was in the midst of this whole experiment of giving up orgasms, so it had already been suggested to me at that point that more orgasms is depleting and leads to irritation and division. Maybe if I hadn't come across this material I wouldn't have dumped him because I had so many orgasms with him. But even if I had stayed with him, it would have been just as bad to stay with someone I fundamentally disliked just because of the orgasms. So the only real point in that story is that I didn't really like that guy. I suppose its possible if I hadn't been having orgasms we'd be madly in love, but I doubt that's the case, and I'm happy I ended up with who I did. That guy had too much to prove. I had a lot to prove too: that multiple orgasms in a night with someone you're not really into in the first place is a recipe for a breakup. Which is exactly what needed to happen, so its all good.

You know what you make a good point.

I should point out however that this thread is worth a read at least as far as the intimate details of Virgil's sex life go. Who would disagree that there is still some prurient entertainment value to a cat talking matter-of-fact-ly about the time his wife stuck her finger in his butt while he came and he experienced the most amazing orgasm of his life. (Sorry Virgil, but that was kind of awesome.) I declare to you, madam, you most likely would not disagree.

Ahahaha, It's no secret I was into porn, that's why I'm here...and I'm going to read every thread with WARNING EXPLICIT CONTENT in the title.

As for your ex...I'm sure he was lame. You did him and yourself a favor by losing his number. Now you have a more suitable man with which to practice all that Karezza goodness.

*giggle*

We just can't keep you guys happy. That warning was put on posts like Virgil's at the request of recovering porn users - because you insisted that you wanted to be able to avoid them! Now I realize it was just for your browsing convenience. Wink

Well that guy was lame on

Well that guy was lame on certain levels, super cool on others. For example, he's a great Capoeria dancer and also an amazing naturopath who is resuscitating old forms of hydrotherapy. I've gotta give him credit. But overall a cantankerous and edgy guy.

I agree my new love and our situation, which is blessed with some consistent doses of karezza, is where I wanted to end up, not in orgasm-land all the time, which feels sortove like a copout way to try to condense all the lovely subtleties of ecstasy that are constantly available in life into one biological function. There apparently is a much bigger potential available that it can be hard for humans to choose, simply because it requires us to be able to admit that we actually have the capacity for sustained joy. Which can be difficult to imagine having been stuck in a realm of distortion that is the modern industrial complex, but which goes back generations and generations, and which we seem willing to carry eventhough its clear it makes us nothing but miserable.

Let's move forward, people!
And thanks for doing so up to this point to the extent you/we have.

Blessings also to the mother below (earth) and father above (spirit). May they dwell in bliss.

Hi Hotspring

Your comment: [My experience says that the emotional context of orgasms affects how intense the hangover. Orgasms that emerge effortlessly and with love have very different effects for me than those experienced in sex that is more performance-driven and emotionally remote, ie, mechanical.] really intrigues me as my wife is very orgasmic seemingly without the fallout. Are you saying that orgasm in the context of a loving joyous connection do not cause the hangover effects, or minimizes these hangover effects for you? I would love to hear more on this.

I'm not entirely decided on

I'm not entirely decided on this subject. I can't honestly say that I've tracked my moods and orgasms strictly enough to say, it's just a hunch of mine. It's always a conundrum to attribute certain characteristics to one factor like orgasm. My sense is that different people have different levels of emotional equilibrium and ability to self-love and self-regulate, and different resources for nourishment and regeneration too. Different people deal with stress triggers differently. If people are having orgasmic sex because they are basically depressed and the rest of their lives are devoid of meaning or purpose, and filled with stress, and lacking in other forms of affection (ie, your typical porn addict), my guess is that orgasms in the context of a lifetyle like this is a recipe for disaster. On the other hand if you had an emotinally supportive upbringing, have lots of access to nature, are able to self-nurture, have a meaningful life and work, are in love with your partner, and receive lots of other forms of affection besides sex, and have orgasms through love rather than mechanical sex, it might not be as much of a problem. Does this describe your wife? How many orgasms does she have?

After exploring these ideas for three years, I do feel that the effects of orgasm can be hard to determine, and often don't show up right away. So, potential side-effects of orgasm could show up in ways your wife is not seeing, even tho they still might not be overall detrimental enough for her to give up orgasm. There are some traditions, like the Sufi tradition, that say it is important for women to orgasm many times, and the man not to. And I do certainly believe that the paradigms we hold in our head as far as what we hold responsible for certain effects, creates those effects, like a placebo. If I am working from a storyline that says that orgasm will deplete me and cause discord, I will be more likely to attribute depletion and discord to orgasms rather than to something else.

I think all things are multifactorial. A couple that has a strong foundation in all spheres of life, including purposeful work, affection, and love, can probably survive any detrimental effects. But that's not to say that because they will survive, that their lives will be as good and as loving as they could be if they experimented with giving it up alltogether. We won't know until we try it. And its so hard to get both people on board, and train away from the old way of doing things, that its a rare couple indeed that can clearly speak for and vouch for the benefits of this way of making love over a long time period. That's why their stories and insights are soooo valuable.

It is a conundrum. I am in a

It is a conundrum.

I am in a relationship now which has given me orgasms hundredfold over what I experienced in my previous marriage (as well as lots more love and physical bonding) and I have to say I am much less anxious, stressed and depressed than I ever was before~~and truly have a feeling of "zen" in my life now.

Is it the new relationship, the absence of the old relationship, my new lifestyle? I don't really know. But I do know that when I was married and rarely having orgasms (especially in the final years), I felt pretty darn bad (emotionally) most of the time.

I would like to think that now that I'm being "fur-licked" (thanks for that term, Marnia!) and am able to reciprocate, it has soothed my soul and therefore, my emotions.

rediscovered

That's great

Fur-licking is so healthy for us, that compared to a relationship with lots of separation in it, it's a God-send. If you're happy, that's what counts. I know you two don't live very close to each other, so if you ever want that "separation" out of the picture, you may find karezza a useful addition to your repertoire.

But what's the rush? If you're content, all is well.

If the two of us are ever so

If the two of us are ever so fortunate to be able to see each other on a daily basis (whether living together or apart), you can be sure we will be practicing Karezza without the orgasms--both of us have said we would love to try that and it sounds delicious.

But for now...we seem to gobble each other up every weekend and wait for the next weekend to roll around, lol~

rediscovered

Hotspring your comment

[On the other hand if you had an emotionally supportive upbringing, have lots of access to nature, are able to self-nurture, have a meaningful life and work, are in love with your partner, and receive lots of other forms of affection besides sex, and have orgasms through love rather than mechanical sex, it might not be as much of a problem. Does this describe your wife? How many orgasms does she have? ]
Does describe my wife. We are a very committed couple and there is a lot of snuggling, affection and mutual nurturing going on between us outside the bedroom. The sex is really the icing on the cake that makes our good thing even better and simply another way we connect. Funny thing with us is that my wife began having more orgasms as I began having less. My wife maintains that it is because I am more readily "available" now that I do not have orgasms and she feels that I am projecting a "very masculine energy field" (her words) that she finds irresistible. Because the effects of orgasm always hit me hard I have always marveled that she was so orgasmic (almost never less than 4 to 5 in a session now) with no apparent negative effects. And this is anything but mechanical, performance oriented physicality. We regularly engage in lots of affectionate bedroom play that does not result in orgasms for either of us - especially fond of slow leisurely early morning intercourse - but more often than not this just primes her for a torrid session of multiple orgasms later in the day. No complaints from me because this dynamic is working very well for us but I would like to develop a better understanding of the female aspects of this - and that is why experiences of others (like yourself) are so intriguing to me. I would like to hear more on traditions (as Sufi described above) that promote orgasm for women and non-orgasm for men. Thanks for your valuable insight.

Thoughts on female orgasm vs not

I stopped orgasming after about 10 years of practicing with a non ejaculating husband. I would go for one orgasm, maybe two. The second always being less intense. At this point it has been about two years since I have mostly not orgasmed. I say mostly since I slip over the edge sometimes, not fully but to a point that diminishes the intensity. I find that when I fully orgasm I am not interested sexually any more. Virgil, it sounds like your partner is different in that respect.

I do want to say that the orgasm changes the focus, whether male or female. There is still a goal. When I quit, we experienced another shift. I would say we moved into the Karezza mode. I can't quite explain it but there is a difference and it is related to there being no goal, nothing to achieve. Almost Zen. Instead of knowing where you are going, you follow the thread of the experience, which may take you somewhere else, and usually does if given enough time.
Annabelle

Thanks for the response Wildflower

I sent my other comment before I read your post. Sorry! If I read you right you like to maintain the state of hunger that non-orgasmic sex promotes with your husband. Would you say this encourages you guys to "connect" more frequently? My wife is seemingly more interested in sex now than ever before regardless of how many orgasms she has. She claims she feeds of the "delicious" (her words) "energy field" I project now that I do not have ejaculatory orgasms any more and she finds this an incredible turn on. Do you find your husband more "alluring" since he stopped ejaculating? And how has he reacted to you giving up your orgasms?

My comments

Virgil,

I'm going to pipe in here as the other half of Wildflower. I assume she will respond but could be a while before she gets on the computer, and then again you may get a response tonight. In response to your questions, from my perspective, I would say it's not so much that she stays in a state of hunger but that within the time we are engaging, not orgasming keeps the feeling and flow going much longer rather than coming to and end from orgasming. When some one is orgasming, whether it be the man or the woman, the orgasm will bring things to an end at some point. She also enjoys the greater level of energy afterward as well. As far as her not orgasming making us connect more frequently, it didn't really change that. Once, pretty much every day, is plenty for the both of us. More alluring? I think after 12 years of practicing this way whatever alluringness there may have been has gone by. Actually, I don't think I became more alluring when I stopped ejaculating even in the beginning, not that I noticed, but I do think other things happened. I think simply, we got closer and more connected. Maybe a bit more respect and trust as well. I feel not ejaculating demonstrates some self mastery and male qualities that speak to a woman about your masculine character. I'd have to think more on this to articulate what I mean, maybe another time.

Your last question is directed at me so this is easy to answer. At first I had to stretch a little bit, partly because it was breaking our established pattern, and I'm a bit of a routine kind of guy, "Hey, what are you up to here?", but also because I enjoyed seeing her orgasm. I will say that seeing your partner orgasm is a beautiful thing, very erotic. Although now I would say, not worth it. I would also say there was some ego in there as well, that I'm making her orgasm, "Aren't I a good lover? Look at how many times I can make her orgasm." Didn't take long at all to get past that; what came next was so much sweeter. You know this, "when's it over thing"? In the beginning, it's over when the guy orgasms. Then once he stops, it's over when she orgasms. When she stops, then it's just plain not over, which opens the door to something quite different, and were loving it. How can I describe it? Like an extended embrace. The short answer, I'm very happy she decided to give up orgasming.

I like your questions, they make me think and reflect about things that I usually wouldn't. States of being that I'm just "in".

Darryl

Thanks for the feedback Darryl

I think this [Actually, I don't think I became more alluring when I stopped ejaculating even in the beginning, not that I noticed, but I do think other things happened. I think simply, we got closer and more connected. Maybe a bit more respect and trust as well. I feel not ejaculating demonstrates some self mastery and male qualities that speak to a woman about your masculine character.] said it better than I was able to when I talked about my wife's increased attraction to me when I stopped having orgasms. When I have asked her about it she said that she saw me as "more male" and that I projected an "energy field" that she found hard to resist that led to us connecting a lot more. That is what drove my question. I also get the "when it's over thing" and this is one of the main reasons I pursued non-ejaculatory sex in the first place. For me orgasm meant the "fun" was over until I could recharge my batteries and I do so love to "play" with my lovely wife. So anything that increased "play" time was a real benefit. Although we do engage in a lot of bedroom "play" that does not result in orgasm (like leisurely morning intercourse) we also go for elevated endorphins via multiple orgasms for her and Tantric waves of bliss for me. And even after pushing the envelope in this manner I maintain my hunger for her - and even though she orgasms (very) often she never seems to reach the satiation point - and we are more connected and in love than we were in our early honeymoon stage some 20 odd years ago. Very cool for a couple in our forties. Very glad that you and Wildflower have established a dynamic that works for you. What are your thoughts on pushing the envelope (by elevating endorphins) as we do? You have stated that you do not do edging so during your Karreza practice how far up the arousal scale do you go? Do you see any negative aspects to playing on the edge as long as one does not "pop the balloon" and release the energy? Great insight by the way and thanks.

The edge

Virgil,

The edge can be fun sometimes and we do go there every once in a while but in general the "sweet spot" in my opinion is a bit back from that. There are some subtle energies that playing on the edge tends to overwhelm. A good analogy would be a car ride. When you drive a car fast there is a certain exhilarating rush around the experience of speed. Almost a giddy feeling. What you loose is whats going on around you, the scenery you're driving through. Its all about the sensation of speed. When you drive moderately or slowly there's no speed rush but you get to enjoy the landscape you're driving through. If we stick with this analogy the negative I see playing close to the edge is you have to concentrate on your driving and there's a certain tension in the extra focus to stay on the road. When you drive slower and stay back from the edge you become aware of other more subtle energies at play and this is our preference. Please don't infer that I'm saying slow is better, each way has its own experience and were just one couple with our experience. I do believe that over the long run there's a good chance you'll decide to choose a place further back from the edge. But for now, hey, you got a new car and you want to play with it.

My take Virgil, is this, enjoy what your doing and follow the flow. If you and your wife are enjoying the edge right now, thats where you're at. The fact that you are willing to forgo orgasming and she's enjoying it and being appreciative is more that 99.9 % of the couples out there are willing to do, you're doing great. In the future you may decide to slow it down and move in different ways, you'll see.

Fire away with all the questions you want, I enjoy answering them.

Darryl

Cliff Driving

Virgil, your post really spoke to my experience this past weekend.

My wife and I have been doing a lot of cliff driving (me inside her). I found that I spent a great deal of time focusing on my "driving" (pun intended) and not going over the cliff. All my energy seemed directed at the point of our closest union. However, when I pulled out, and lay on top of her or beside her, then I really noticed how it became a full body experience. Suddenly I was much more aware of the feeling of our bodies chest to chest. I was able to luxuriate and be much more relaxed and I found it a great deal more enjoyable.

I think cliff driving has a time and place, but I also have learned that I need to slow down and enjoy the scenery too.

Love your analogy. Thanks!

Hotspring, No I'm not edging

Hotspring,

No I'm not edging but sometimes it does get close to the edge. I would say were staying more in a zone or a range so to speak. Not too heated up but not no movement either.

So, why do you ask about edging.

Darryl

I was wondering the same thing?

There is no need to "edge" as there is nothing to be gained. That is no longer a desireable place to be, at least for us. I am not engaging in intercourse for arousal / release any longer. Getting remotely close to the edge means slow down, loosing erection means move, but slowly... I like things simple. Wink

It is

It is wonderful. You will get there. Practice makes perfect. Smile I may be dense tonight, but what do you mean by "We hang out in the 80's"?

80's as in around 80%

80's as in around 80% arousal. Sounds weird to talk in such technical terms, but the 90's is a real danger zone, really close to orgasm. 80's is like a step back from edgeing, but still aroused.

Hi Dano

I have been practicing non-ejaculatory/no male orgasm sex for some years now. I came to this from the Tantric perspective – a long time before anyone began publishing the neurochemical activity taking place in the body during sex as Marnia and Reuniting does here.
I really began seeking answers as a result of the huge difference in how I perceived my orgasm versus what my wife experienced twenty some years ago. Unlike my orgasms that were over in just a few short seconds her orgasm lasted much longer and seemed to be on another level entirely. I was awed and humbled by the intensity of her orgasmic response. It gave me a glimpse of what was possible and I wondered why a man’s orgasm was such a short (although intense) burst while a woman’s orgasm was so much more profound. It just seemed wrong that my wife could have as many as she wanted with no fallout while I was a “one and done” guy that took a long time to recover.
I got nothing at all from the modern medical community as I “functioned” correctly from a “medical” perspective with all the body parts doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing so I spent considerable time researching Sacred Sexuality including Tantric philosophies attempting to understand what I was experiencing during sex. You have to understand that much of this was pre-internet so I was limited to what I was able to find on bookshelves and much of the early Eastern Philosophies were not easy to read or understand(for me at the time anyway). Some of it was so off the wall (transmutation of matter into energy for instance) I really struggled with getting my head around it. And every “expert” had just a little different “take” on how one should go about achieving total “enlightenment.” I have literally read every scrap of information I could find on the subject including all the “new age” Western derivations but I have no clear cut favorites to recommend to you – for starters Marnia has a number of texts here on the site – that would be a good place to begin. I believe many people have been mislead by the western derivations and perceive Tantric sex as “kinky” sex with hundreds of “secret” positions and procedures all designed to bring about supreme bliss. So many fall into this “trap” as people search for the magic pill, potion, or position that will bring them perfect bliss.

The fact is “None of these things exist!!!!” >>>>> But human nature being what it is we continue to seek these things out – hoping the next pill, potion or position will bring us fulfillment. As “new age” peoples of the world we continue to externalize – believing our technology will reveal all the secrets of the universe and transport us to a place of supreme bliss.
We are in fact victims of our own success in this matter for we seldom internalize or seek within ourselves anymore – preferring to take the path of least resistance and be handed our solution on a silver platter.
The absolute most important thing anyone could/ should take away from any investigation/experiment of/with Sacred Sexuality/Tantra is to seek within oneself for answers. There is no “one size fits all” solution and we all have to establish our own balance. What works for me will not necessarily work for others.
I can say the Tantric practice of continence and withholding semen was intriguing to me – I read historic tales of how men would use this process to manage scores of concubines and bring them all to orgasm again and again - with the real goal of raising the man’s energy level as much as possible until he reached a place of supreme bliss. The philosophy described orgasm without ejaculation and said that ejaculation was debilitating to the man – that he literally gave up life force energy every time he shot off.
This seemed to make sense to me as I always experienced a huge drop in energy every time I ejaculated, and the older I got the longer it took before I recovered and became really hungry for sex again.
As time passed and science was developed to support real life experience I came to understand my symptoms were caused by the neurochemical impact orgasm had upon me and really little to do with the loss of semen.
I have never had a problem with porn addiction or significant relationship issues with my wife but I could easily be the poster “boy” for all the biochemical evil that results from orgasm because I have suffered with all the ugly stuff Marnia has discussed repeatedly here. I was very fortunate that I listened to the “wisdom of my body” and learned how to turn this liability into a benefit for me and my lovely wife and establish a dynamic that works for us. I am still studying the female aspects of this because my wife remains highly orgasmic seemingly without the negative fallout (and thus unlikely to change in this regard anytime soon) and I am hoping to hear more women's perspectives on this so I can better understand it.

I really like when you say "my lovely wife."

I have longed for a relationship with a woman my whole life, since becoming sexually mature. I used to fantasize, not about sex, but romance and doing nice things for a beautiful woman and just imagining having a best friend. I believe when I was at my best over the past decade or so, in my various relationships with woman, I've been that guy. Kind, caring, thoughtful and an attentive lover. Somehow over the past four or five years my relationships have have passed from being "reactive" (just waiting for someone to come along) to "proactive" (consciously looking). I've also tended to *want to feel* romantic feelings and didn't always, but not for lack of trying things like elaborate dates, fancy dinners ect. After awhile I would inevitably feel like I was "faking it" with my girlfriends. In my mind I was already one foot out the door and indeed I knew that after 6 months or a year I couldn't stay any longer. (The younger I was the longer I stayed...)

Porn certainly played a role in this, but I'm glad to have the discussion of orgasm "hangover" or what you termed "post orgasm depression." Whatever way one looks at it this roller coaster sucks. It's been difficult when the entire culture says put your goggles on lets speed up and accelerate orgasms for all, all the time! This fits in with your analysis of the West as it has taken things from other cultures as "sex fads" and tried to package it and sell it to the masses of us miserable workers, unemployed or working 2 jobs.

The prospect of satisfying many woman at a time or even within a few days time has been one of my favorite sex fantasies, especially with regard to porn. There have been times in my life when I had multiple sex partners (not at the same time,) but orgasmed with them all. When I visit New York City I become convinced I can go without orgasm and do it with all the fascinating, beautiful woman who are walking around going about their daily lives every single day in that town. It's been so soon since I've had orgasm though...I am still very much in a protracted series of passion cycles. I can't seem to get past days 9 - 11 without something coming along...whether real sexual opportunity or overwhelming urge to masturbate. No wonder I want to have sex with every attractive woman I see!

I'm curious about your experiences pre-internet and how you came into this practice. None of this would ever have become known to me if I hadn't recognized porn as a problem in my life. I didn't think it was a problem until I decided to quit and found to my surprise how exceedingly difficult it is. I soon stopped trying to resist and went back to regular masturbation and porn sessions. That lasted for 3 years with varying levels of success quitting. Perhaps your lack of exposure to internet porn is a generational difference? I don't know but it must have been hard enough (from my current albeit biased perspective) to live through the fallout of the sexual revolution and be married. I had a time when I didn't believe I would ever be married, while now I know I will be.

Thanks for your response.

Dano

there is hope in this post /thread

Wow this is one interesting look into the soup of neurochemicals. It does however also give me some hope. As I learn more and more about all this and as I find myself working away from allowing my past to influence my future in a negative way, I see small steps in the right direction.
I must say I have never experienced that kind of bliss, as a matter of fact, only by a fluke I am sure, that I have twice allowed/ or maybe was surprised by an orgasm with my husband. I was way too embarrassed during sex to show any emotions, and wonder if he even realized I did.... Reading this site and all the focus on non orgasmic sex, made me stop the 'solo flying" I privately engaged in after sexual exercise (or as I often used to refer to it) as "servicing hubby." Now I am looking back and I can not see any ill effects of the self induced orgasms that I had. Not that it was an every day affair and not even all the time after any of our 'service projects.'

However in wanting to shed myself of past experiences that skewed my view of sex, I have sought solutions and have dug deeper into things with a hypnotherapist, mostly creating peace with the past. So I came to the realization that I want to experience that kind of bliss, not by myself but with hubby. So far a period of abstaining has done nothing, except make me wonder, and lament what I really have been missing, in 28 years of marriage. Yet til today I still feel embarrassed of actually communicating with hubby, who I still think will be delighted to find me responding ( not suppressing my reactions as in the past) but also communicating enough to him so he can make me feel safe enough to allow the bliss to take over.

Seeing your posts Virgil, and others, really helped me solidify my resolve. I hope that my attempts of introducing non sexual contact and karezza bonding behaviours will increase my chances of building that trust, but I am no longer conflicted if I should just give up the orgasm goal with hubby.

Thanks for sharing,
Flowing Searcher

Trust is KEY. It is not

Trust is KEY. It is not easy at all to trust. But our very lives and loves are at stake here, and at the end of the day, we determine we must, in order to fully live life, in order to know what it means to be a woman, in order to know what it means to be a human.

Hi Flowing Searcher

Your post brought back memories of my youth, when I was just beginning to develop relations with the opposite sex. Just like the textbooks claim I believe I hit my physical sexual peak at age 17-18. I was overflowing with energy, and could easily get an erection and ejaculate multiple times a day, day after day after day. Like most young men I was obsessed with women and studied their anatomical construction with the most intense scrutiny. I read everything I could get my hands on and had a very good working knowledge of all their naughty bits long before I ever was face to face with my first pussy. I studied every aspect of sexual relations, what women liked and did not like, positions, techniques, etc. I had such ridiculously high expectations of how sex was going to be – I know how good it felt when I masturbated so it was only going to be that much better right?
All I can say is my first time with a woman was less than I expected. Fear of pregnancy, numbed by alcohol (both of us), and all the drama of college life and short term associations of convenience without commitment – all this buildup and the whole thing was over in mere minutes. Just friction sex. Yes I had an orgasm, and it felt really good, but for all the hoopla and expectations I was disappointed. Never the less I repeated this a number of times as I sowed my wild oats – the biological urge all but overwhelming at times. In my encounters with women I always tried to give as good as I got because I felt it was the right thing to do – if a young lady I was with was good enough to spread her legs for me I was going to make sure she did not regret the decision. I never had any complaints from my sex partners and if they did not get off it certainly was not for lack of effort on my part. But it seemed somewhat one sided most times as I never got back as much as I invested and I was never really satisfied. I felt there should be more to it.
I did not realize it then but what was missing was true intimacy. Both me and my sex partners of the day were driven by our hormonal urges and there was no “real” connection. And I had no idea of how to go about creating one.
In school I learned about math, physics, chemistry, engineering, and a host of other aspects of the “mechanics” of the world we live in. What I did not learn was how to “connect” with another human being. In my humble opinion this is one of the major failings (if not the biggest) of our society. Just think about how much different people’s lives could be if they had been taught the skills needed to grow relationships and develop real intimate connections instead of allowing our biology to drive us together and hope it works out as we learn as we go. I know I stumbled my way through this for some years not having a clue what I was doing. I was the offspring of divorced dysfunctional parents and I had never been exposed to anyone that had a “solid” relationship so had no “template” to go by.
I had no idea how I was going to do it but I promised myself that if I ever had the opportunity that I was going to do it differently – that my relationship was not going to be like my parents was, like so many others were. For me what it came down to was being brutally honest with myself and what I wanted and needed from the relationship and forcing myself to communicate even when I was not comfortable doing so. Even in the face of embarrassment, ridicule and possible rejection. If you have an issue but remain silent then you become part of the problem. I found through this direct approach that others were empowered to communicate in a similar fashion in return – and quickly get to the “heart” of the matter with minimal drama or BS.
The first really satisfying sexual experience I had was with the beautiful young lady who is now my wife. We established a relationship and a high level of bonding long before we were ever sexually intimate. In my travels through life I had learned that I needed the connection and shared intimacy to be there in order for me to get the most out of the sex. Because there was lots of communication going on both of us were able to “ask” for something if we wanted it or make it plain if something wasn’t working – both inside and outside the bedroom. We have our ups and downs like every couple but I believe our ability to communicate is what has enabled our relationship to remain strong over time. And I also believe that the synergy of our bond is what makes the sex as hot and fulfilling as it is – we focus on giving each other the maximum amount of “pleasure” – and sharing at this deep a level just makes every aspect of the relationship better.
Our situations are essentially reversed in that I am the one “servicing” my lovely wife and providing her as many orgasms as she desires. My greatest pleasure is in knowing I am contributing as much as I can to her “satisfaction.” I don’t have orgasms of my own any more to avoid the neurochemical fallout but my lovely wife does everything in her power to insure that I get as much “pleasure” as possible from our activities and we do push the envelope as much as we can. It works (very, very well) for us but is rather non-conventional and we would never have reached this state without communication.
We are all sexual beings and virtually all of us alive on the planet today got here because two people had sex. There is nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of in sharing yourself with your husband in the most loving way possible – and life is too short not to get as much out of the experience as possible. Now that you have identified where you want to go take a slow deliberate approach to opening up to the “pleasure” and improving the communication with your hubby. It may be easier at first to do this in a more non-verbal way if you have trouble talking about it – during sex subtle wiggling of the hips/body English combined with a moan or grunt could put you on the path to becoming more orgasmic with him – and the more you communicate the closer to your goal you will get. Stay focused on increasing your connection and opening communication and everything will fall into place – and don’t give up. Good luck.

Thank you so much for your

Thank you so much for your great insight again. Pushed by the confidence I gained from reading yesterday, and posting my wishes above, created the first step for me actually to open my mouth and request things from my hubby this morning. I was pleased to find us cuddling for a long time, and I told him :o yes it surprised me, that I wanted him to make me cum. I was really taken aback that I heard myself say that, lol.

I know it will take some practice for me to get there, and he did try and query about things, and yes.. I gave feed back. He was also pushing me, but though I was working very diligently not to get him to orgasm before I did, it didn't work. End of explorations for me.... well... that was a let down for me and I was faced with his usual total drop from the world and him flipping over and donning his CPAP mask and snoozing off. leaving me hanging....:S

So one question... any idea if withholding orgasm, as in not giving in to being disappointed and going 'solo', would increase the chance of having one, from a female perspective? I chose not to this morning in the hope it will build up expectation. Didn't seem to have done it with about a week of waiting... Well, there is always another day...

Thanks again Virgil...

Flowing Searcher

Ever thought

about getting him to read something on karezza and getting a fresh start with an experiment...and THEN finding what works for you if you decide you want orgasm in the picture? If you two find out what gifts there are in a karezza approach, it may reboot your whole goal-oriented focus, making it easier to come into harmony...whatever you choose.

A program like the Exchanges, in the book, is fun and is basically three weeks of bonding behaviors with a little gentle intercourse. It wouldn't hurt anyone's relationship...and is a lighthearted adventure in intimacy. Even if your logical brain sees it as a useless detour, it's only a short one. And may pay unexpected dividends.

You certainly can't expect your husband to be aware of all the options without some education.

Flowing Searcher

Marnia is absolutely correct here - really need to educate your partner on the potential paths to your goal and create a “roadmap” together with him that leads to your destination. Change will happen if you stick with it.

Virgil,

Wanna start a new thread in your blog? We usually try not to have them go past 50 posts. Gets hard to keep adding because Drupal creates a second page at some point.

Thanks,
Marnia

I'm experimenting with quoting.

[quote=Virgil]Hello,

I have always been a prodigious ejaculator and the older I got the longer it took to recharge my batteries to the point where I was really horny and hungry for sex again and my wife could be challenging to keep up with at times.

[/quote]
...

[quote=Virgil]

When I investigated the Eastern philosophy of Tantra and read about men consciously withholding semen during the sex act and actively managing scores of concubines and having full sexual congress with woman after woman and bringing each to orgasm again and again I could not bring myself to believe it was possible. After all I was a very healthy and active man and I struggled at times to keep up with just one woman.

[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
As an experiment I planned a sexy interlude with my wife with extended foreplay focusing entirely on her pleasure, only entering her after she was smoking hot. [/quote]

[quote=Virgil]

Instead of thrusting she seemed to want me to stay in deep and grind her clitoris against me (hello coital alignment technique). I obliged and within a few minutes she was coming, and as I was still hard after scant moments she was coming again, and then again.

[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
At this point my nuts were ready to explode so I feigned a Charlie Horse in my leg and withdrew. I made a big deal out of trying to walk it off to no avail and finally told her we would have to finish me tomorrow.

The following day I was so horny my balls ached and I was almost frantic with need but I wanted to see if we could repeat the day before. I once again made a ceremony of our activities slowly caressing and massaging her body until she was writhing and moaning, teasing her until she begged me to mount her. I slid in deep and made a point of riding high within her, applying as much pressure as I could right on her clit.

Staying deep without the usual thrusting I found myself in no danger of coming and was able to focus on her response to me and was able to match her every bump and grind as she came over and over again. I was so into her coming in this way I completely forgot about my own pleasure.

After she was sated she rewarded me with the blowjob of my life, sucking and licking with incredible animation, finally sliding a finger in my ass rubbing my prostate as I experienced the most utterly intense orgasm of my entire life.
[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
We came to understand that both of us benefited when I did not ejaculate right away and in subsequent sessions we began extending the time between my orgasms from days to weeks and beyond to the point I experienced my first male "expanded" orgasmic response that is much touted in Tantra. A paradigm shift took place at this time and instead of ejaculatory orgasm being the goal I now looked upon it as a roadblock to experiencing higher levels of pleasure.
[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
In my humble opinion no man is the equal of a woman in the bedroom under normal conditions. I found that by using the Tantric philosophy of continence this leveled the playing field.
[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
Since ejaculating was no longer our goal my wife knew I would remain hard and last as long as it took to insure her total satisfaction and this gave her the freedom to fully relax into the sex act and really connect with her body and explore her sexual response to the fullest.
[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
Limiting (eliminating) my ejaculatory orgasms was the best thing that ever happened to us, bringing us to a level of intimacy few people share. I no longer masturbate at all, preferring to save all my sex energies for my lovely wife and our activities together.

[/quote]

[quote=Virgil]
We found the greatest pleasure a man could experience was the endorphin high that occurs during extended tease and denial sessions. That is what happened in our case. My wife has me completely programmed not to ejaculate but to instead savor the incredible endorphin high and I am beginning to be able to regularly experience a sort of multiple orgasmic response (similar to what women are capable of if I am correct) I would describe as waves of bliss that can last for many minutes - we have gone as long as 10 minutes and more until I was literally so exhausted I had to stop - without conventional male burst pattern orgasm being a part of it at all. It appears that we have found the way to trick my body into elevating endorphin levels far beyond what most men experience during orgasm and this is very, very satisfying. Instead of the act being over with a brief intense squirt it can last as long as you want it to.

Both my wife and I believe this has created a more balanced dynamic between us in the bedroom and the increased level of intimacy has carried over into all other aspects of our relationship. We are having way more sex now (and way more satisfying sex) in our forties then we ever had in our 20's and 30's. And our intimate connection and level of bonding is stronger than ever.

Best regards,
Virgil[/quote]

Im not really sure that the

Im not really sure that the evolution had to be that we have been geared toward non-monogamy.. but I do think there may have been some genetic engineering to keep us in separation.. hence why women can have multiple orgasms and man can't, so women will never feel pleased enough by a man, except of high endurance, but as to the reason why men have been by default engineered this way.. well... it's possible that our creators engineered us this way to keep us worker slaves and be in constant conflict.

Thank you, Virgil et al

Hi, everyone! This is my very first post on the website. I have been reading voraciously all day and my deepest gratitude for the sharing.

This post was a link from another member's blog. I am so happy to have been reading the positive experiences of karezza by men.

My last relationship ended in 2005 violently (emotionally), and had we been practicing the tantra which that partner had assured me initially that he was interested in, our relationship would never have been blown apart. It was all these hormonal addictions which caused him to get entangled with another woman and not have the understanding of what was going on on the neurochemical level. A very tragic situation, as he thought we would be life partners.

Oh, well. So now I'm back in the game and looking for a real tantra or karezza partner. I adored reading Virgil's story - wish I were in my '20's starting all over again. Instead, in my early '60's the men I'm chatting with on OK Cupid have no idea of what this is all about, and the resistance to learning something different from "hot" sex is amusing at best, and of course frustrating and disheartening. And seeing the lust-driven men in their '60's and up, looking for younger women to jump-start their libidos, and then all the men I knew before moving out of state, who'd had their prostates surgically removed, or suffered from ED . . . if only this word could get out.

Thank you all for sharing such intimate and honest experiences. This certainly clarifies my search for the "real thing" and now hearing from all you sincere and wonderful guys here, I am greatly encouraged that there are a few good men out there.

Warmest regards,
Shannon

You might enjoy this page

http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_korner_intro

Check out the links for more reports of experiences by men and women.

If possible, please start your own blog threads, or comment on current threads, in lieu of digging up old threads and commenting on them. They confuse forum members who don't check dates. Wink Feel free to dig them up for your reading pleasure, of course.

Again, you can start a thread by clicking on "Members' Blogs" to the left, and then "My Blog" when it appears.

Dear Shannon

You bumped to the top one of my all time favorite Reuniting threads. At first I was a complete noob to all this stuff (still pretty much am really) and I jumped on here on a lark. Now in re-reading this I think Virgil should get a medal. He's like a tantric Olympian.

Anyhow, I look forward to reading your posts. Sorry about that tough break up. I had a pretty tough one that year too but I can recall a Howlin' Wolf/Willie Dixon lyric that goes like this (think gravel voice here):

"T'row that cat baby out of your mind!"

The song still makes me smile.

http://youtu.be/fJ2UadHc_Qg

And it did the same for me

I'm still smiling. That guy just makes you happy, doesn't he? 300 pounds of joy. That was a great line - "T'row dat cat baby out of your mind!"

Wish I could forget that cat baby, but I can at least say the triggers eventually softened tremendously, and I have always been able to think of him with compassion.

This is a fantastic thread, and I appreciate you, Dano, for bumping it back to the top yourself. I had not gone through all the comments, and now I want to finish that part.

Virgil is definitely the Tantra champ. I love reading the posts from you guys here, who care so much about having a fantastic sexual relationship with a woman. It has brought more healing to my soul.

Don't think I can come anywhere near Virgil's posts though. His are awesome. I can remember being on that Tantra journey, and I would love to be back on the path. Smile

Hugs and gratitude to all you wonderful passionate lovers,
Shannon

well in a small way...

I have discovered that type of pleasure in my sex life too. I would call it Tantric waves of bliss for sure, to use Virgil's words. This thread was really out of this world when I went back through the archives here on Karezza all the way to the beginning. I re-read this lots of times.

I never thought I'd be here but I am. Even though my partner couldn't be more different, as she has a low sex drive. Still, it is remarkable how much sex we have and how much pleasure and the feelings that spill out into all spheres of life. It's indescribable.

So get out there and find your honey. 

Really great OP.

Really great OP.

And I love your approach - but, I find myself with hangovers from edging - usually restlessness which only disappears with orgasm. Perhaps, over time and with practice this feeling will become less pronounced.