♥The Science Behind Male Chastity

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I recently read this man's blog entry. In it he explains what may be another approach to Karezza. He borrows heavily from Marnia's points.

Here is the link to his blog. I have attached the text below. http://secretchastityhusband.blogspot.com/2010/08/male-chastity-pleasure...

Friday, August 20, 2010
Male Chastity - Pleasure and Devotion, the Science Behind It

I have been doing some reading lately about the science of sex and more particularly, the science of orgasm. I have been looking to answer a number of questions I’ve had about my own reaction to chastity, such as:

1. Why am I in such a good mood during my periods of chastity?

2. Why are my orgasms, when I do have them, so intense and long-lasting; utterly unlike any orgasms I have experienced before?

3. Why do I have these intense feelings of devotion to my wife, of wanting to help and serve her during my periods of chastity?

4. Why do I lose those intense feelings of devotion after I have orgasmed and do not feel them return until days, sometimes a week or more, afterwards?

5. Why is my wife so much more enthusiastic when we have sex than she was before this chastity experiment?

6. Why does my wife seem to be in a better mood than she had been before, more willing to experiment a little sexually and generally warmer and more playful during our non-sexual time together?

I have had these questions, and others, swirling around in my mind for some time but didn’t feel the need to think and research them more deeply until a couple of things happened. First, in trying to explain to my wife what that powerful feeling of devotion was, I compared it to that post-orgasmic feeling of closeness we always have as we lie entwined with each other after sex, telling each other how lucky we are to have found each other. She remarked, “yes, but that feeling doesn’t last long, does it?” That made me curious as to why it doesn’t last.

Second, I had been following probably the premier blog on male chastity, called aptly the Male Chastity Blog (www.malechastityblog.com), written by Sarah Jameson. It has been an incredible font of wisdom, reason and good advice and followed closely the developments of her relationship with her husband, John, and her thoughts about it. In that blog, she described the increasing period of time between orgasms for her husband, from monthly, to every three or four months, to at least seven months (the minimum date for his next orgasm is Christmas, dating from his last one in May), to serious consideration of stretching that to a year or more, and even discussion and consideration of permanent orgasm denial (gulp!).

Sarah has also recently written a book on male chastity called “Be Careful What You Wish For,” a superb collection of her thoughts, wisdom and advice on whether male chastity is right for you; if it is, how to go about adopting that lifestyle and how to make it work for you as a couple. One thing she discusses in that book is her thinking on extending the period between orgasms for her husband. Her reasoning is logical, in fact mathematical in nature. First, she states that she and her husbands’s experience with male chastity so far has established a clear pattern that whenever John orgasmed, he lost that feeling of devotion, that powerful feeling of wanting to help and serve his wife for 7-10 days. Then she projected that pattern and its results on letting John orgasm every month and found that for every year, they (and especially she) would lose that special devotion generated by male chastity for three to four months. She considered that loss much to high to permit if she didn’t have to, and she didn’t have to. John seemed perfectly content with the less frequent orgasms as long as there were frequent periods of sexual play, touching and teasing - even if it was just for Sarah’s benefit.

That description of John’s lost devotion after orgasm and his general state of happiness while he was chaste closely matched my own experience and made me wonder just what was the best duration of chastity for me. During my own experiment in male chastity, the longest period I had gone without orgasm was 18 days and I recalled feeling as though I was jumping out of my skin I was so excited by the prospect of sexual release. Should I go longer, and if so, how? Can I be trained over time to extend the duration?

I began researching my questions by trying to understand the mood change that occurs after orgasm, particularly after a lengthy period of chastity. From previous experience, I knew moods are often dependent on the presence, concentration or absence of certain neurotransmitters. So I began my internet search with “sex and neurotransmitters,” and “orgasm and neurotransmitters.” What I found is that the relationship of sex and orgasm to our mood is not a mystery; the biochemical mechanisms are well understood. And, I discovered that those mechanisms provide the answers to not only all of the questions I had about mood change and male chastity but many questions I hadn’t even thought of yet. At the end of this article, I will list some web sites that would be of interest in understanding these mechanisms. Each of those sites, in turn, provide links for further research and investigation.

There are a number of different neurotransmitters involved in shaping our moods throughout our life but the three dominant, key ones where sex and orgasm are concerned are dopamine, prolactin and oxytocin. A fourth factor is the concentration of receptors for these neurotransmitters, in particular those for dopamine. Sexual activity and orgasm generate predictable patterns in the levels of each of the three transmitters as well as receptors. Men and women have distinctly different patterns which have evolved over time to deal with the imperatives of species survival - i.e successfully passing on one’s own genes. In particular, gene pool mixing and the care of off-spring so they survive long enough to pass their genes on.

This is not an article about evolution, but suffice to say that the feelings and behaviors those neurotransmitters generate that are related to survival (that is, gene survival) exist in us today because they were the most successful in allowing our ancestors to survive and procreate, and for allow their progeny to survive and have a chance to also procreate. The neurotransmitters dopamine, prolactin and oxytocin exist and work the way they do because in the world of long ago, when our ancestors evolved, they provided an advantage in procreation and in survival of the progeny.

Okay, so let’s introduce the “stage” and the three main actors in this ongoing play:

First, the stage for all of this is our brain; in particular the part of our brain in the limbic system called the “reward center.” All of our physical senses like taste, smell and touch only provide signals to the brain which the brain receives, processes and in turn generates neurotransmitters. Our genitals are just one of many such signal senders.

The three “actors” are:

Dopamine - the neurotransmitter that causes the feeling of pleasure we receive from engaging in certain activities. Sexual arousal, the eating of calorie rich foods, and for some, certain other behaviors like gambling or shopping, and the ingestion of certain drugs like cocaine, amphetamines and heroin all raise the level of dopamine in our reward center. This rising level is experienced as pleasure and the higher the level, the more intense the pleasure provided there are sufficient receptors to accommodate the rising level. The intense pleasure of orgasm that we experience results from the sudden flood of dopamine that is released in the reward center of our brain.

Prolactin - the neurotransmitter of satiation; it applies the brakes, so to speak, on the level and duration of dopamine and oxytocin ( it affects oxytocin indirectly by its effect on dopamine). Prolactin levels generally remain stable in the reward center of the brain except during orgasm when they are substantially increased to deal with (i.e counteract or reduce the level of) the sudden flood of dopamine and oxytocin. The elevated levels of prolactin after orgasm persist for a minimum of one week and as long as two weeks

Oxytocin - often called the “cuddle hormone,” when the level is elevated, it produces the pleasurable feeling of bonding or “connectedness,” as well as feelings of closeness, devotion and protection. It is the primary factor in establishing the basis for pair bonding. A burst of oxytocin is produced during orgasm and is responsible for the post orgasm afterglow of love and connectedness we feel. After orgasm, in men, the level or oxytocin quickly drops - in less than an hour it is well below the level it was at before sexual arousal began. In women, the post orgasmic level of oxytocin decreases more slowly reaching normal levels in several hours and remaining there. In addition to orgasm, the other mechanism for raising the level of oxytocin is touching and caressing, not necessarily in a sexual manner; even the simple act of holding hands will raise oxytocin levels. Even when the level of oxytocin is reduced to normal levels, although the powerful bonding feeling is lost, the memory of that feeling remains. It is that memory that provides the basis for long term relationships to survive the dopamine/prolactin roller coaster.

As discussed in the section on oxytocin, the manner in which dopamine and prolactin rises and falls during and after orgasm is quite different in men than in women. In men the curve tracing the increase and decrease of dopamine through sexual arousal, orgasm and aftermath is saw-tooth shaped. There is a gradual rise during sexual arousal with the gradient or slope increasing as he approaches orgasm. At orgasm, the slope is nearly vertical as it is the sudden burst of dopamine that is experienced as intense pleasure by men. The feeling of intense pleasure lasts only 5-10 seconds in most men (4-12 muscular contractions about 0.8 seconds apart according to Masters and Johnson). This burst of dopamine also triggers a nearly concurrent burst of prolactin causing the level of dopamine to “fall off a cliff” in a nearly vertical descent after orgasm. The result of the dueling neurotransmitters just minutes after orgasm is a dopamine level that is well below the level it was before the sexual arousal leading to orgasm started and a high level of prolactin that persists above the normal level for up to two weeks.

For women, the picture is quite different. Perhaps because of different survival and procreation imperatives, or because women’s dopamine levels are largely driven by their menstrual cycles (high levels at fertility, highest at ovulation, lowest at the end of the cycle when not fertile - this low dopamine level is often experienced as PMS irritability and also often an insatiable appetite for calorie rich foods which is a way of raising dopamine levels back to normal), a women’s dopamine curve is smoother, shaped more like a flattened sine wave which, if looked at in detail, is a series of pyramid like steps with small rises and drops followed by a period of leveling or a plateau. So, during sexual arousal, her dopamine level rises in a series of steps (the plateaus accounting for the generally longer foreplay period required by women before orgasm). At orgasm, the dopamine level peaks but does not drop off drastically, descending instead in a series of steps because unlike men, her prolactin levels rise only a little above normal and continue at that level only long enough to return her dopamine level to the level which is normal for where she is in her menstrual cycle.

Now that we understand the dopamine/prolactin cyle and the oxytocin cycle, lets look at the moods and feelings that are associated with normal or somewhat elevated levels and low levels of dopamine, excess levels of prolactin, and normal or higher levels of oxytocin vs. below normal levels of oxytocin (which is usually accompanied by higher levels of cortisol, the stress hormone).

Dopamine:

Normal/Somewhat Elevated: Motivated, Feelings of well-being, pleasure in accomplishing tasks, healthy libido, optimistic about life, good feelings towards others, a desire to bond with others, sound choices.

Low Level: depression, Anhedonia (no pleasure, the world looks colorless), lack of ambition and drive, inability to feel love, low libido, no remorse about personal behavior, social anxiety, impaired judgment.

Prolactin

The symptoms associated with excess levels of prolactin are:
lethargy, loss of libido, depression, irritability, infertility, decreased testosterone levels, weight gain, little interest in bonding with others, pessimistic about life.

Oxytocin:

Normal/Elevated: strong feelings of attachment, devotion and connection; increased sexual receptivity, positive feelings, health benefits (lowers blood pressure, faster wound healing) fewer cravings and addictions, feelings of protection and responsibility.

Low Levels: little or no feelings of attachment, devotion or connection, little or no feelings of protection and responsibility for another, low libido, depression and weakened immune system.

Now let’s walk an average, middle-aged, married couple who have sex to the man’s orgasm about twice per week (with the woman reaching orgasm about half the time):

For the man, it’s a dopamine/prolactin roller coaster of pleasure and depression with him experiencing the pleasure of elevated dopamine and oxytocin for relatively brief periods of sexual arousal and orgasm while spending most of his time experiencing the lethargy, depression and loss of connectedness of low levels of dopamine and oxytocin with high levels of prolactin. To compensate for this, the man will attempt to raise his dopamine levels, to feel good again, (in the same way a cocaine addict would, who also experiences a very similar saw-toothed curve in dopamine levels when using the drug, seek drugs to boost dopamine) by doing things in which his brain has already developed known pathways for responding with dopamine surges. This includes over-eating, use of dopamine raising drugs - legal and illegal (alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, cocaine, amphetamines, opiates), looking at porn, masturbation, sexual liaisons with others, particularly those involving risk (New York Governor Spitzer and President Clinton come to mind - both of whom paid a high price for living with a dysfunctional dopamine/prolactin cycle), etc..

Importantly, along with the negative effects of low dopamine, there is also the lost feeling of connection and ability to love with low oxytocin levels. The moods and feelings generated by low dopamine levels often prevent the very thing necessary to raise oxytocin levels - touching and caressing of his wife or by his wife, physical closeness and intimate communications.

With the persistence of prolactin in the brain after every orgasm preventing a long term return of dopamine levels to normal, a man who orgasms every few days and/or masturbates with that kind of frequency (or more often) is stuck in a cycle in which he never returns to a normal level of dopamine and is constantly seeking ways to boost those levels. Moreover, he is unable to maintain the emotional connection to his wife over a long period of time.

It should be noted that this type of cycle probably exists because it was very advantageous to the survival of ancient man’s genes that he seek quantity and variety for sex - ensuring survival of his genes by placing them as many places as can and combining them with as many different types as he could. He was a dopamine driven creature, with occasional bursts of dopamine rewarding his sexual behavior - passing his genes to another, but persistent low levels of dopamine to drive him to seek sex again with an even larger boost if it was with different a recipient.
(Note: There is a funny if possibly apocryphal story about this involving President Calvin Coolidge - google the term Sex and “Coolidge Effect” to find it.)

It should also be noted that the mechanism for gene survival is completely disinterested in the feelings of the man - whether or not he feels good or bad most of the time; or for that matter the feelings of the women with whom he has sex. This is, of course, at odds with our modern desire to be happy in our life.

For the woman in this marriage, her dopamine levels are largely controlled by her menstrual cycle with her experiences of elevated levels at orgasm and slower, more gradual drop off in dopamine levels that help maintain her feelings of well-being but with the mood, attitude and behavior of her dopamine deprived husband alienating her from him emotionally. There is a constant interplay of low dopamine affected husband, resulting withdrawal of affection by the wife and resulting deceased oxytocin levels in both of them that usually creates problems in the marriage, often so severe that the marriage cannot survive it. It is important to recognize that orgasm by the woman does not have the same severe, adverse effect on her dopamine levels and as is the case with a man.

One more quick note about the fourth factor, the level or concentration of dopamine receptors - with respect to the man who masturbates a lot or looks at a lot or porn to raise his dopamine levels, the law of diminishing returns applies. Just as in the case of the cocaine addict needing more and more of the drug to generate the same rush of pleasure and over time not even getting much pleasure, eventually needing the drug just not to feel bad, the man who has frequent orgasms causes the brain to down regulate the number of receptors so there is a diminishing intensity of pleasure felt because the surges of dopamine at orgasm do not have receptors to bind to. It also explains the greatly enhanced feelings of pleasure felt by men who orgasms infrequently; men who have comparatively high concentrations of receptors.

Now, let’s look at the dopamine/prolactin/oxytocin cycle with the same middle-aged couple in which the man is allowed to orgasm only once every three or four months (as the Male Chastity Blog writer, Sarah Jameson, permits for her husband, John), where he is locked in a chastity device between orgasms but enjoys lots of sex play and intimacy, teasing and denial in between orgasms. In this scenario, the woman is allowed to orgasm whenever she wishes, usually during sex play with her husband.

For the chaste man, after his last orgasm (or as Sarah does it with John in their male chastity lifestyle, multiple weekend long orgasms planned as a kind of mini-honeymoon, which they enjoy several times a year, before he is locked up again for several months), he is in the same situation as the “normal” married man who has just had an orgasm. He has low dopamine and oxytocin levels, and high prolactin levels. But unlike the man who keeps having orgasms inside of his dopamine recovery period and therefore remains chronically low in dopamine, the chaste man does not orgasm again for several months. Within a week or so his dopamine not only returns to normal levels but over time it is further elevated by frequent sex play and intimacy, teasing and denial. Moreover, just wearing the chastity device raises his level of dopamine because of the continuous low level of arousal he receives from the continuous awareness of his genitals and the fact that he has turned over control of his orgasm to his wife.

(Note: The turnover of sexual control is one of the reward pathways that the chaste man has developed sometime in his past which will generate an increase of dopamine, felt as pleasure or satisfaction when he does turnover control. Generally, the male chastity lifestyle will work best when the man has already developed that reward pathway, i.e. already desires or even craves turning over control. It is possible that this reward pathway can be developed in one that doesn’t already have it. The craving of every type of sexual “kink” can be understood in this way. They are all attempts to boost dopamine levels using pre-established reward pathways that the person has developed in the past which reliably provided a dopamine burst when activated.)

The key to the chaste man’s long term, greater feelings of happiness and satisfaction is that although his dopamine levels are constantly being raised above normal, for the several months in between orgasms, he never triggers the surge in prolactin that lowers dopamine levels the way orgasm does. Throughout the day, every day he is in his chastity belt, aware that he has turned over control of his orgasm to his wife, his dopamine stays elevated. During sexual play and intimacy, when he is teased and denied, particularly when teased to just short or orgasm, his dopamine level is boosted without triggering the corresponding, counterweight of prolactin to defeat it. Making love to his wife and bringing her to orgasm is incredibly arousing for him, boosting his dopamine levels with no subsequent sudden drop of dopamine level for him because he doesn’t orgasm himself.

In her blog, Sarah relates that in trying to understand why her husband craves chastity, he said it was because he was constantly aroused, that he was “half-way to orgasm” all the time. Biochemically, he was exactly right. He had discovered that in terms of overall happiness, it was better to be half way to orgasm 95% of the time than all the way to orgasm .01% and no way to orgasm the other 99.99% of the time.

What about oxytocin, the “cuddle hormone?” After orgasm and a temporary boost of oxytocin, the chaste man suffers the same fade to below normal levels. But, unlike the man who orgasms frequently, his dopamine and oxytocin levels are restored to normal after a week or so. The chaste man spends most of his life with high dopamine and high oxytocin levels (helped along by his loving wife who appreciates the mood and attitude of her high dopamine, high oxytocin level mate) who lavishes lots of physical attention on him. Touch and caress, hand holding and massages, warm intimate talks are a regular part of their daily lives.

Rather than feeling depression and alienation from depressed levels of dopamine and oxytocin, most of the time the chaste man feels positive, motivated and devoted to his wife. One of the most consistent reports of changes that occur in a relationship when a male chastity lifestyle is adopted is the male’s greatly increased attention, cooperation and personal service to his wife. This extends to all parts of their relationship, from the way he constantly hugs, touches and showers affection on his wife to his perfect willingness to do domestic chores like the laundry and dishes that he previously wouldn’t go nearg. It is one of the discovered joys of male chastity for the female mate of the chaste man and usually quickly turns them from anxious skeptics to fully committed believers who never wants to go back to the way it was.

What is the ideal time between orgasms for the male? That it is personal choice for the two individuals involved in the relationship. It’s a trade-off between the desire by the man to experience the intense pleasure of orgasm (greatly amplified by the infrequency from higher receptor concentration) while minimizing the period of low dopamine loss of feelings of well-being. For the female, the trade-off is a complex mix of what she believes is best for her mate whom she loves, what is best for their relationship, and frankly what is best for her. Realistically, every time her mate orgasms, she can expect one to two weeks of a low dopamine, low oxytocin mate with the attendant loss of attention and devotion that she enjoys the rest of the time and probably a more irritable, cranky mate as well.

So some of this is basic arithmetic that depends upon what I will term the “Devotion Refractory Period,” taken from the term “male refractory period” which describes the period of time after orgasm in which the male cannot erect and orgasm again. In this context, the devotion refractory period is how long it takes after orgasm for the male’s dopamine and oxytocin levels to recover so that he is again a happy, devoted mate who is once again lavishing his attention on her and performing any number of useful services.

In her book, “Be Careful What You Wish For,” which is a truly fabulous collection of information, wisdom and ideas about male chastity and the adoption of that lifestyle (available at a modest price from her web site, www.malechastityblog.com), Sarah estimates the period before her husband, John, recovers those feelings of intense devotion for her as about ten days. Figuring that if she allowed him to orgasm every month, then in a year she would be abouot 120 days or fully one third of the year in which she would not enjoy the special attention and devotion that she receives the rest of the time. This loss was too high of a price to pay for giving him the pleasure of monthly orgasms and instead she went to once every three or four months, extending that recently to seven months and seriously contemplating a year or more. Significantly, she noted that although she had the absolute right in their arrangement to do this, she certainly took into account her mate’s feelings and found that he didn’t seem to mind. He wanted to orgasm but craved denial as she put it.

So, what does this scientific analysis mean for our understanding of sex and orgasms and the effect it has on our relationships. First, we now understand that the mechanism, the dopamine/prolactin/oxytocin cycle, used by nature, (or evolution, natural selection, gene survival imperative, or God if you wish) to provide the necessary incentive for man to act in a way which achieved it’s objective of passing on his genes does not meet, and in fact is contrary to our modern day personal objective of being a happy, fulfilled and deeply connected person in our relationships. We also know that male chastity is one way of correcting the mismatch between ancient, biological imperatives and our own personal desires.

The following are some of the useful web sites I found in researching this. Each of these sites, in turn, included numerous links to more information which I also used as needed. I have also ordered a book, Cupid’s Poisoned Arrow, by Marnia Robinson, which, from the sample chapter and extract I read, appears to explain the biochemical cycle in more detail and advocates a type of love-making that does not involve orgasm, or the type of orgasm that triggers all of the negative features of the dopamine and oxytocin cycle. It is availble at Amazon for about twelve dollars. I will write more about it once I have read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/12/health/12well.html?_r=3&ref=science&or...

http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/02/dopamine_and_orgasm.php

http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

http://www.reuniting.info/science/dopamine_separation_after_orgasm
Posted by kelmag at 4:05 PM

Comments

Hey...good find

Good to know there are other people attempting this. I enjoyed reading it.

"We also know that male chastity is one way of correcting the mismatch between ancient, biological imperatives and our own personal desires."

Whoa.

This is the first time I've read something saying pretty much the same thing as Marnia, interpreting the same scientific data.

Hmmm...

Thanks for sharing this. This post was fun to read, but raises questions for me. First, chastity (as the author defines it) has clearly become a fetish for him. He get's his jollies (dopamine rushes) from not getting off...and from female domination in a mild form...and from keeping his "junk in a trunk" (his device).

"Whatever floats his boat," as the saying goes. Smile However, these are not features of karezza, which emphasizes mutuality/equality, getting good feelings from bonding behaviors (including gentle intercourse), and avoiding unnatural stimuli.

At the same time, I found his "devotion refractory period" to be an interesting term for a feeling that does seem to affect many lovers for a time after intense sexual stimulation - generally without their realizing it. Yet I think it often affects women subtly, too, and I'd be interested in knowing more about his mate's state of mind. How many orgasms is she having? Do they affect her mood at all?

His experience of finding regular playful sex contact to be helpful in sustaining his feelings of devotion are, of course, completely consistent with the power of "bonding behaviors + very few orgasms." Maybe we humans are a lot closer to other pair-bonding primates than we think. We need lots of affection with a degree of sexual arousal, but too little affection and too much emphasis on arousal can actually erode our bonds (at least after the honeymoon fireworks wear off). http://www.reuniting.info/node/4211 "Hormone study (oxytocin) finds monkeys in long term relationship look strangely human"

It's interesting how he assembled a lot of the pieces we have been digging up. I think he has taken liberties with some of his assumptions about how they fit together, but, on the other hand, virtually no research has looked at these pieces of the puzzle in the brain over time...so who knows? He may be closer to being right than some of the official scripts produced by today's experts, who claim that too much stimulation can never adversely affect a healthy brain...even as more and more research is suggesting the opposite.

"Floating Your Boat"

I came across this blog when checking my blog stats and finding an unusual number of hits from this site. First, I did use information from the Reunite site in my article and listed it as one of my sources of information, but it was not my only source. At no point in my article did I state that it represents the views of the site authors. Second, my article was not intended to be an academic, peer reviewed, monograph. It was intended to explain the common experiences that many of us have had in the male chastity lifestyle community. It was addressed to that community. Third, I must address the "snicker factor," the use of words or phrases that are clearly used to denigrate or belittle other's views and practices; in this case the words and phrases "fetish," "jollies," "female domination," "junk in a trunk" and "Whatever floats his boat." The use of terms like these generally diminishes the writer more than the object of those terms and displays the writer's discomfort with things that are outside of her personal experience. I found this to be an oddly parochial reaction from one who purports to be exploring the outer edges of human relationships.

As for questions regarding my mate's state of mind (including how many orgasms she is having), they are described in detail in my blog and cover a period of six months and counting. Briefly, her initial reaction to the chastity suggestion was apprehension and discomfort. Over time, she experienced so many undeniable benefits from it (including more frequent and far more pleasurable orgasms) that she is now fully engaged in the "game" and supports it whole heartedly. She has gone from having a very low libido (her description) to having a very strong one. She wears my key with pleasure in an inscribed silver locket I gave her and uses it (or not) whenever she feels like engaging in some intimate, sexual play, which now is quite often. The improvement in our sexual relationship and our communications have substantially improved our relationship.

It is interesting that one of the largest communities actually practicing male orgasm frequency reduction goes unnoticed and unexplored by the scientific community simply because they fear to tread in an area that might bring them personal scorn just by association. The device I use, the CB-6000, is not a "chastity belt," it is a fairly inconspicuous plastic device that keeps my genitals isolated from contact most of the time. The sensory isolation itself has had some interesting effects with respect to the magnitude of sensation felt during sex beyond the effect of reducing orgasm frequency. The company that makes it has reportedly sold hundreds of thousands of these units and its predecessors (modern science and engineering marches on), mainly in the U.S. and Great Britain. There are a dozen or more serious manufacturers of chastity devices and the largest makers have order backlogs amounting to months. Somebody is buying them - a lot of somebodies. Although some use it for a short term thrill in the bedroom as they would a pair of handcuffs, many wear it continuously. Their experiences and those of their mates should be of great interest to scientists and writers exploring the effects of orgasm frequency and type on human relationships and personal happiness.

kelmag

Why is this arguably extreme

Why is this arguably extreme measure necessary? Shouldn't humans be able to find natural balance? Could it be that what the male chastity community is really seeking is closer to what is discussed here? Could it be that some form of balanced abstention is good and that male chastity is but one way of getting there?

Amen,

I feel that Kelmag has done more for bridging the gap between careless masturbation and porn use with healthy balanced sexual relations than anyone I have seen--here or otherwise.

Has he answered it all? Of course not. Has he described some useful information? There can be no doubt.

Similarly to Kelmag, I found the parochial response and the 'whatever floats your boat' dismissals as disappointing from a group supposedly dedicated to exploring the previously unexplored.

Personally, I laugh at those who resort to such cliches when trying to express "open" communication. Whatever floats your boat, if it works for you, etc. Even our dear Marnia is guilty of this by saying, "whatever you do to create balance is ok.....but......"

Thank you to Kelmag.

David

I honestly don't believe

I honestly don't believe Marnia meant to say anything in a condescending way. If you look at all her past posts her language has been consistent with expressions like"whatever float your boat." Unfortunately, expressing one's feelings through an online forum is not possible. I guess that's why we have emoticons. :)

Mmmm, I wondered if this

Mmmm, I wondered if this thread would go quietly and was surprised that it was peacefully headed that way. Apparently not.

Well, since we've revived it, here's what I have to say is "Buck up and take it!" When you make the choice to wear a contraption over your penis and give the key to your wife/girlfriend/partner who has sole access, your going to get sniggering. It goes with the territory. Its sniggering material. Can you imagine what Monty Python could/would do with this if they got their hands on it!! Does anyone here remember Faulty towers with John Cleese? I'd die for the male chastity episode. Bring back Manuel!!!

Really, this is not a judgement on the practice of male chastity, really!! I do respect anyone who does it. When I say "its not my cup of tea", or "whatever floats your boat" this would just as easily apply to sky diving or bungee jumping. Actually, I'd sooner wear a male chasity belt than bungee jump, now that I think of it. Bungee jumping is pure lunacy in my book, I wouldnt say that about male chasity. I'm just saying anyone who decides to practice it ought to realize you're going to need a bit of thick skin. Its probably required, if you're not going to keep it to yourself.

When I tell people about non-orgasmic sex I get plenty of looks and comments that amount to "are you nuts, whatever floats your boat" as they edge away from me. Thats part of the territory, I recognize that and don't sweat it. I'll find my tribe, and I have, here on this site.

So, toughen up, take it in stride and find your tribe. Here on this site, we're probably not it.

Super job Darryl

Your quote:

"So, toughen up, take it in stride and find your tribe. Here on this site, were probably not it." (sic)

Really sums up the "open minds" on this post.

Disappointing.

By the way, since you appear to only be a part-time apostrophe user, you may consider taking up bungee jumping in your spare time.

Whatever floats your boat!

I enjoyed it, but...

I think there is a post-orgasmic hangover for women. Women may not experience an immediate letdown as do most men, but I think it cycles for about 2 weeks.

Also, I'm not sure where he gets some of his science, but he gets a lot of science from us. There are important differences between us so I will comment:

"The elevated levels of prolactin after orgasm persist for a minimum of one week and as long as two weeks."
COMMENT: We suggest that prolactin my cycle up and down as it does in rats. We do not suggest that it stays constantly elevated during the hangover. The longest it has been measured (as far as I've found) is for one hour after orgasm.

."After orgasm, in men, the level or oxytocin quickly drops - in less than an hour it is well below the level it was at before sexual arousal began. In women, the post orgasmic level of oxytocin decreases more slowly reaching normal levels in several hours and remaining there."
COMMENT: The research I've found shows that it returns to baseline levels in BOTH sexes in less than 10 minutes. Also -it often rises just as high with sexual arousal as it does with orgasm. His theories on male and female being quite different in their hormonal profiles after orgasm don't show up in the science.

From an actual review of the research on oxytocin:
In a recent study of men, OT increased in some subjects following ejaculation, but the individual variability was such that the group effect was not significant (Kruger et al. 2003a). Murphy et al.(1987) reported an increase in OT in men during sexual arousal, which persisted beyond ejaculation, but with no obvious increase at ejaculation. In a study of women, Blaicher et al.(1999) found an increase in OT 1 min after orgasm, but levels were close to baseline by 5 min post-orgasm.
Whether the increase of OT around orgasm, which has been somewhat inconsistently observed in the human literature, has any specific function, rather than being an epiphenomenon of other changes, remains uncertain, though it is possible that this OT rise will affect the experience of orgasm by influencing uterine and other reproductive tract smooth musculature [causing contractions].

"The intense pleasure of orgasm that we experience results from the sudden flood of dopamine that is released in the reward center of our brain".
COMMENT: The intense pleasure of orgasm is probably due to an intense flood of opioids, not dopamine. Dopamine is the push, opioids are the final reward for food and orgasm.

"her dopamine levels are largely controlled by her menstrual cycle with her experiences of elevated levels at orgasm and slower, more gradual drop off in dopamine levels"
COMMENT: I've found nothing to substantiate dopamine being controlled by menstrual cycles, or a more gradual drop off of dopamine after orgasm. I will keep searching. AS for the menstrual cycle - women have more sexual desire around ovulation, which is probably due to testosterone being at its highest around ovulation. Estrogen is high just before ovulation, and it plays a part. Both of these hormones can assist in keeping a higher baseline of dopamine - thus making sexual stimuli more appealing. But neither control dopamine, that is always through stimulation of the reward circuitry.

My overall view on the above discrepancies:
I think he's trying to place men and women in a different category as far as possible post-orgasmic hangover. And implying that women do not have any hangover. I see no evidence for this. I do think women have a different emotional response, and maybe (as he is suggesting) a different hormonal/neurotransmitter profile. Women may get hit a week later, and have a harder time making the connection with their changed perception of their partner.

Thanks Gary

I tend to agree that the author's liberties with science may distort any differences between men and women. My belief is that the author was trying to put SOME rationalization to the apparent case that men and women are simply different when it comes to sex. We may not know why, but I am betting that most of us in the Reuniting site will agree: men and women approach sex differently. (at least I think so)

But I also think it is a mistake to simply "evaluate" the blog post by Kelmag by virtue of his scientific accuracy instead of considering his main point. I believe that main point is this: If men can learn to subordinate their own personal orgasm to the rest of the sexual experience, they will be much better off. I feel he made this point--using your science--quite aptly.

He may have fell down a bit explaining the woman's responses, but I honestly think the author was just trying to be the literary "fill in the blanks" guy so as to make his article flow better. I know this technique may not be scientifically accurate, but it tends to make the piece much more readable than by saying every other sentence, 'we don't know, we don't know'.

Now if WOMEN can subordinate their orgasm for the rest of the sexual experience things may be even better. But, as I am sure most men will agree, it is the male who tends to "over do it" in the masturbation/porn arena and not the women. Thus, any kink or technique that addresses the over "ejaculation" of the male is probably the biggest bang for the proverbial buck.

David

You're right

about his main point, and he did a very articulate, if somewhat artistic, job of laying it out. Hats off to him.

These days, I think women can get just as caught up (well...at least we're "gaining on you") in hyperstimulation. That has huge ramifications for our ability to nurture and bond. Eeeek.

I certainly would bet that the orgasm cycles of men and women are on average *different*, although I suspect there would also be much overlap in typical orgasm hangovers. It would be great to know more. Since androgen and estrogen are both relevant for sexual behavior in both sexes, the differences in levels (and receptors) are probably quite significant in the subtle hangover differences.

I pointed out our science differences because

he used our site for much of his theories, and I want to make sure others reading his material don't construe it as ours. I know it may seem insignificant, but we want to be scientifically accurate, even though we take the material to places where scientists fear to tread.

As I said, I like the article. And we have a whole lot more to learn on the subject.

I think much of the hangover will come down to changes in receptors in the reward circuitry - probably centering around D2 and D1 receptors.

Thanks Gary and Marnia

Both of your points are well taken. It IS important to be accurate. (you should see the utter nonsense that passes for academic work in the male chastity forums)

What really pleases me is that others are taking the notion of "excessive" orgasms quite seriously. Maybe someday there will be a true mainstream set of studies.

Meanwhile, I repeat my appreciation to both of your for shedding great light on such an important subject.

David

Mmmm,

Male chastity, what a fascinating concept. These modern times, I just cant keep up. I wonder what the old Taoists would have to say about this approach to ejaculation control. I don't think it would work so well with Annabelle and I. When she said, "OK now it your time to shoot your load", I would say, "no way honey, these little spermies are staying put right where they are, thank you very much". The whole concept would kind of fall apart at that point.

I agree

I got a chuckle out of that. I would also say, I don't want to! I now look on ejaculation as a negative, not a positive experience! Why would I want to do that?

Don't knock it 'till you try it

I appreciate that male chastity play as a means to achieve balance isn't for everyone. But Darryl's point would apply to ANY means of Karezza related activities.

Would you say that Karezza breaks down because you'd say "no way honey, these spermies are staying put"?

Possibly I misunderstood your point.

I know you were asking Darryl, but...

It would seem to me that ANY activity that keeps one or the other partner (or both) sexually hyper-stimulated is by definition, not Karezza. The fact that both practices limit male ejaculation is coincidental. Male Chastity is a sexual kink that is voluntary on the males part. Orgasm denial has become so erotic that denial in itself provides a more heightened sexual activity than orgasm alone.

Speaking only for myself as a practitioner of Karezza, arousal in ANY form is minimal. This practice is almost NOT SEXUAL in conventional terms of sex. It is almost coincidental in fact, that the penis is inserted into the vagina!

To me, the differences between Karezza and regular sex and most certainly any kinkier form of sex (BDSM, Chastity Play, Role Playing, Swinging, etc.) is all in the mind. Are you doing this for a kick, or are you doing it to bond with your partner. Do you have a goal, or not? That is the difference.

David

I suppose there was some tongue and cheek in my post with a sprinkle of jesting. I do respect everyones approaches in there lives and don't mean any disrespect but couldn't help chuckling at the idea of actually wearing a physical chastity belt. My real point was that I would not want to have a restriction placed upon me that I was waiting to be released from so that I could have a good, and maybe extra strong, orgasm. I'm not holding orgasm at bay, self imposed or otherwise, but making a commitment that takes orgasm off the table completely in favor of a very different way of interacting with my partner. Male chastity seems like restriction then release, not unlike conventional sex, just a little more drawn out. Karezza on the other hand is connection and bonding through the subtle flow of energy between the masculine and feminine. For us, each time is a complete exchange, nothing is held back or built up. Neither one of us imposes control over the other, our control is over ourselves.

"No way honey, these spermies are staying put" is about my self control. I prefer to be the master of my own urges and choices. I feel I am a better, more connected lover if I bring the mastery of my own body to the table rather than having it imposed. When I look back over the years at the times I imposed my control on another, welcomed or not, as well as the other way around, the results were never that uplifting. So, yes, I do question the long term success of a control based approach to sexual relations. What I did gather from reading the original couples blog was that they were experiencing the value and benefits of non-orgasmic sex which I concur. I'll pass on the external control part. I'm already wearing enough underwear as it is.

Very Well Said

I struggle to describe what I feel now and the positive changes that have occurred in my life. It is especially difficult for me to explain to those that are still practicing conventional, goal based sex. I want to be positive, but fear I come across too strongly and perhaps negatively. That is not my intent. David, I feel EXACTLY the same as Darryl and for the same reasons. I would like to leave it at that.

neil

Not quite apt

Neil,

With all due respect, your characterization of male chastity play is not apt. It does NOT leave you "hyper-stimulated".

Does Karezza have a goal? Does male chastity have a goal? I say yes in both cases. And I say the goal is the same.

By your defination, Karezza is also a kink. ......

Also, can you cite your experience in the two topics?

David

sounds good

You gents make good points and are obviously thoughtful members here. I still say you miss the points a bit. However, that is not important. I just find your commentary interesting for two guys who have no experience in something.

I have tried both chastity play and Karezza. They are far more similar than you may think.

I agree with Neil, let's leave it at that.

David

Wow, this is an interesting

Wow, this is an interesting post. I would agree with Marnia that there is a distinction, even though the outcome of both may appear strikingly familiar on the surface. Karezza falls in developing bonding via oxycotin. Chastity seems to do it through dopamine. Is one better than the other? That is up for debate.

Sorry fellas

Quite honestly, I used the "boat" phrase as a humorous way of making the point that people should find what works for them, not to be snide.

It's my hope that the material at this site can help people find balance using more natural methods than plastic devices, but I am happy that you're happy. Really.

Sorry Fellas

Thanks Marnia. I guess it is a matter of experience and perspective but I find wearing a plastic device to achieve certain desirable ends no more "unnatural" than having intercourse without orgasm for the rest of one's life. As you have made very clear in your book, Karezza is about defeating one's "natural" mammalian impulse to propagate, to pass along one's genes; to be able to break out of the ancient dopamine driven cycle of intercourse for propagation and align our sexual behavior with our modern desire for attachment, fulfillment and bonding. That same goal can be achieved by drastically reducing the frequency of orgasm without completely surrenduring the sublime pleasure of giving and receiving orgasms with one's mate.

Yes, plastic is used for sensory isolation and to discourage masturbation to achieve this. Men also use plastic, in the form of athletic cups, to protect their genitals while participating in certain sports. Is it that much more of a leap to use a plastic cover to protect our moods, feelings and our relationships? It is certainly not for everyone. But then again, neither is Kareeza.

It might be difficult to do a survey to confirm this but I think most men, given only two choices - to wear a plastic chastity device and have occasional but earth-shattering orgasms with their mate, or practice Kareeza and never experience the pleasure of giving or receiving an orgasm for the rest of their lives, would choose the former. I would expect most women, at least most orgasmic women, would make the same choice - keeping their mates' genitals locked in plastic and enjoying the many benefits of male chastity rather than foregoing orgasmic pleasure for all time themselves. In fact, for many women it wouldn't be a very hard choice at all. In all of the blogs and forums on male chastity that I have read, I have yet to come across a single woman who wanted to go back to the way it was before the male chastity lifestyle was adopted. In fact, most are absolutely adament that they won't go back.

Is it a little absurd to go around wearing a plastic chastity device? Yes, no doubt about it. But isn't most of our sexual behavior a little absurd when you think about it? Aren't most people embarrassed to talk about their sexual practices precisely because it does look and sound so absurd in the clear light of the rational, non-sexual part of their lives. Is it any more absurd than having intercourse while trying like hell to fight against every natural (there's that word again) instinct to progress towards orgasms - to deny yourself the feelings of excitement and passion that have driven our species for a million years?

I am not writing to convert others to the male chastity lifestyle. I am writing simply to assert that it is a legitimate response to the problem of mismatched goals between our present conscious selves and the biological legacy of our ancestors; certainly it is as legitimate as the practice of Kareeza, or for that matter, the practice of ignoring the problem altogether and going through life leaving a trail of wrecked relationships and damaged people in one's wake.

kelmag

Just to clear up a few misconceptions...

It's "karezza" (pronounced kar-etza), not karEEza.

Karezza is not about "fighting like hell against your instincts to orgasm." It's about relaxing during lovemaking and letting the exchange of energies create deep feelings of wholeness, bliss and satisfaction...with no sense of fighting or sacrifice.

I suspect you're right that for those who are determined that their satisfaction must lie in orgasm, forceful means like chastity devices are necessary to avoid escalation and hangovers. I don't share that goal (of preserving peak orgasms as a path to happiness). In my experience there is another way that doesn't feel like a sacrifice at all.

As you would say to me, don't jump to such fixed conclusions about what you haven't yet experienced. Smile

Maybe you are right about results of a "survey" on

"Karezza, versus an occasional, mind-blowing orgasm."

But those being questioned would have no experience of Karezza. Their reward circuits would clearly say, "No thank you," and leap at an occasional orgasm. The reward circuit would also leap at having a harem, or being a porn star, or king of the world. But so what?

I don't see this as contest between 2 types of sexual practices.

I don't see Karezza as "defeating" one's natural mammalian impulses. Why I don't is that the practice can become quite easy - if done correctly. It's more about choosing another response to sexuality. Retraining the brain- choosing a different pathway.

As mentioned in Cupid's Poisoned Arrow, Marnia and I had times where we (especially me) were too close the edge, or used too much effort (especially her). That causes problems. Then one is trying to hold off the orgasm - or defeat it.

We crammed a lot of stuff into our book, which is good, as one can pick and choose what works, or feels right. However, if I had my wish, anyone who reads CPA would also read Tantric Sex for Men: Making Love a Meditation, by Diana & Michael Richardson

It's a great companion (or just by itself) to CPA. It explores and describes a whole different way of making love. The stillness. No efforting. Simply allowing erections to rise and fall. Allowing the energy to move us. It's really about getting our fulfillment from something deeper.

I second that wish!

I just finished reading both the male and the female books of Diana's, and am finding them a *fantastic* addition to Cupids Poisoned Arrow. I was initially reluctant to read them, due to experiences with other similar books in the past, but they turned out to be just what we needed!

Quizure

I have to comment again.

[quote=kelmag] Yes, plastic is used for sensory isolation and to discourage masturbation to achieve this. Men also use plastic, in the form of athletic cups, to protect their genitals while participating in certain sports. Is it that much more of a leap to use a plastic cover to protect our moods, feelings and our relationships? It is certainly not for everyone. But then again, neither is Kareeza. [/quote]

Okay, seriously? There is a HUGE difference between wearing a jock strap with a cup and wearing a chastity device with a freakin' LOCK on it AND not having full access to this part of my body at any moment. I suppose it might be sort of like wearing a cast or something. Not that I would ever voluntarily have a cast put on a healthy part of my body. Can you see how some people may view this as a sexual fetish and not as natural behavior that one would freely share with other friends and family? I have two grown sons age 24 and 20. In a million years I wouldn't let them catch me dead in a male chastity device. Period.

[quote=kelmag] It might be difficult to do a survey to confirm this but I think most men, given only two choices - to wear a plastic chastity device and have occasional but earth-shattering orgasms with their mate, or practice Kareeza and never experience the pleasure of giving or receiving an orgasm for the rest of their lives, would choose the former. [/quote]

I don't judge you or anyone else who choses that path. In your asking whether or not I would give up earth-shattering orgasms, I can see that you truly do not understand Karezza. While I am new to this and cannot report to you first hand what this practice is like, I can tell you that there is something greater than orgasm available. Even earth-shattering orgasms. If you really dig into this practice you will start to see that it goes much, much deeper. Those who succeed at Karezza jointly WANT to avoid orgasm because of what they give up when they have one. Orgasm most certainly is the booby-prize.

Pardon my impulse to comment here...

as I am feeling the presence of this arena's heavyweights. But I just wanted to add that I found it interesting that twice in one day I find posts regarding this male chastity device. After reading the post and succeeding comments here I would tend to agree with the idea that this practice of Male Chastity sounds like it is more about maintaining a heightened level of dopamine. I mean no offense at all, but that to me is more in the world of addiction and fetishes than in the world of Karezza. While their practicers may inadvertently be experiencing some of the same benefits as practicers of Karezza, I think that the spiritual aspect is lost. What I mean is that there is way too much focus on the sex organs and stimulation and not enough 'soul-blending' and nurturing. Not to mention, I just think that wearing a plastic device around my penis for 24 hours a day would feel so unnatural. I don't even like to wear *underwear* to bed. :)

Some questions

Some practical questions regarding male chastity devices:

Is hygiene an issue? I change my underwear at least once a day.
Can you ride a bicycle while wearing one?
I *need* to scratch my balls before I get out of bed - would I be able to do that?

where is the God dammed foreplay?

You said,

"It might be difficult to do a survey to confirm this but I think most men, given only two choices - to wear a plastic chastity device and have occasional but earth-shattering orgasms with their mate"

Firstly all orgasms are earth shattering or they are not orgasms but merely ejaculations, the two things are not the same!

Secondly I don't need to have my penis locked in a cage to have earth shattering orgasms and I suspect that most men don't. What I need to have earth shattering orgasms is at least 30 mins of non genital foreplay, that is to say ears, eyes, mouth, neck, shoulders, thighs, backs of knees, nipples etc. Of course the problem here is that in our society, in the media, books movies etc and of course pornography foreplay is something that happens mainly to women and is to get them in the mood because of course us guys are always in the mood(sarc) and therefore it can be a bit difficult to find a woman prepared to devote so much time to getting a man properly warmed up

Thirdly while what you say about recovery times and physiological effects are true of ejaculation, they are not true of orgasm. My experience is that an orgasm lasts about 5 mins during which time I can't be touched at all, the high which is very similar to an opium high can last as long as 2 hours, it certainly does not resemble the graph you described. I'm not sure about the feelings of devotion etc so I'll give you that one but I certainly will do a lot for someone who can or will give me orgasms especially when I often experience, not sure how to describe this, "flashbacks"during the day after and I will do very little for someone who merely gives me ejaculations. Oh and btw with the right partner I can have more than one orgasm in a week, although I have to be honest if I had an orgasm every time I had sex it would be way way too much for me.

Having said all that, I still find the idea of male chastity intriguing much more so than that other thing because there is no way in hell that I'm going to give up my orgasms and I sort of understand why you are doing it. And if it works for you then I'm happy, well almost but I can't help but feel that you and other male chastity guys are making it more difficult for guys like me. How are we going to get women to give more attention to the rest of our body's if they can just lock up our dicks and get what they want with very little effort. You might not be interested in equality but I am