my husband isn't interested cont...

Submitted by Rosa on
Printer-friendly version

Hello it's Rosa again,
Last night my husband and I had a kind of conversation...it went something like this. I'm working if you want a fuck I can leave this work. Then I told him that I didn't want to fuck that I jsut wanted to be together lovingly. He got defensive and said that he didn't want to do any of that energy stuff and that if I didn't want to fuck to just go away. The conversation went on a little more than that. He insisted that I too want to fuck but that I don't admit it because I want to feel superior to him. I told him that I don't need to have an orgasm and that I don't associate penetration with having an orgasm. He said that's the difference between men and women. It's hard to help him see differently when he's so fixed on the idea of orgasm. It's almost like the orgasm defines his masculinity....when I say this I think the same for feminity that not having it defines femininty....I know things aren't so black and white but why such differences and is it really natural or just some idealistic notion that men don't need to have an orgasm. Really there's evidence on both sides and well I guess that means that if the man is really masculine that he will side with the need for orgasm to justify his needs or desires. We separated with me going to bed and he continuing to work. After a while he came into the room woke me up to tell me that he's very angry with me and that he's taken up masturbating. We have been married for about 7 and a half years and masturbation has never been a part. During the last 2 years or so he has been watching porn on the internet. Then he saw a program about sex slavery and decided to not watch anymore. I'm not sure if he is or not now but I do feel it's partly my responsibility that he's taken to masturbation. I really would like to resolve this issue and wonder if there are professionals to help us. I know that he'd never go still I have no-one except you here at this ssite to talk to. My husband is convinced that Karezza is unnatural as it's a thought up practice and that sex doesn't need a manual and that I'm only interested in it to justify my lack of sexual appetite. How can I help him see that this is not true or maybe I have to believe that it is true inorder to survive in this relationship. I have so much to say and no-one to discuss with. So I want to thank anyone who has read my posts and is willing to respond in what ever way they can.
Rosa

I cannot help you, but I wish I could.

Rosa,

I really don't know what to say, nor how to help you.
It is because relationships like yours are very unfortunately so common, that a site like this one is useful.

As Sunlee said, maybe you should consider ending this relationship. But I understand that you have a child, and that you may be financially dependant, which makes such a decision so much the harder to take.

Is there a way to save your marriage? Maybe. I cannot know.

Your husband is right: "Karezza is not natural". What is "natural" is to follow our biological instinct which is procreative, orgasmic sex. Karezza is "super-natural", divine. I say that for your benefit, because I understand that your husband might not be open to such talk.

He is on a vicious cycle, from which he cannot escape without help. The problem is that he won't accept any, and least yours. It is a matter of pride, and also because he doesn't see you as you really are but projects some of his own fears unto your persona.

I know from personal experience that porn can be very addictive and very destructive. The fact that he tried to give it up is positive: at least he perceives this as a problem that needs to be cured. (I often think that there should be a bigger part of this site with information about porn addiction).

Your problem is that you cannot force your husband to do anything he doesn't want to do; you cannot beg him nor control him.
He is not interested (at least not for the time being) in such alternative sexual ways. He may still change later, but for now, accept this as a fact and think about your options.

Think about what YOU can do, regardless of what he does. You can go to conselling (how can you handle this difficult situation without getting emotionally drained? Should you consider a divorce? etc.) What possibilities are open to you? Can you move out of the house, even if temporarily? (to live at a parent's or a friend's house). This would give you an opportunity to have a rest and see the situation more calmly from a different angle.

Really, it is difficult to give definite advice over the internet. I cannot help you. I just can give you some general information.

I think in a situation like yours, the important is not what your husband is willing to accept or to do, but what you, yourself, can do. What positive, concrete steps can you take to improve your emotional situation?

Also, remember, if you would like to discuss some details you don't want to be made public on a forum, you always have the possibility to send a private message to one member of this forum or another (click on the member's name, and on their profile page, click on 'send private message').

Blessings.

Sorry, Audrey

I have not been watching the forum as carefully as I should have and I'm very sorry that I did not find your agonized posts until now. It sounds like the problem has been going on for a while, however, and like it will not be solved overnight either, so perhaps the delay won't matter much.

I'm going to post this, just in case you check, and then work on a longer, more substantive reply.

More soon,
Marnia

Your message to me

Marnia,
I know that you have sent another message. I have no time to write more now. I sent a private message to the janitor and was hoping to copy it to send to you jsut so that you knew what has happened since I last wrote. Maybe he or she can send you a copy. I told them that I was going to send a copy but after sending it I have nothing to copy and no time to work out how.
will read you message soon and reply.
Tahnks for your concern

about your PM.

I'll send a copy of your PM you sent me to Marnia.
I replied to your PM.

Btw, you can still view your message by going to 'my inbox' (link left) and click 'sent messages'.

Blessings.

Substantive reply

Dear Rosa,

Would your husband be open to reading any of our science-based articles? Maybe an article like this one ("The Coolidge Effect") would help him realize what his biological programming *really* has in mind when it drives him to value orgasm only: http://www.reuniting.info/science/coolidge_effect
Biology's goal is to move us on to new partners (after procreating, or exhausting passion, with the former one), and perhaps he will recognize that it is just about to achieve its goal with the two of you. If he does, he may also decide that he doesn't want a mindless biological reflex running his life. What he really wants is a close nurturing relationship with you, he wants his itch to stop itching, and he wants a sense of fulfillment.

Perhaps, if he gives the big picture some thought, he will also see that he is likely to repeat the same pattern with his next partner...without finding lasting satisfaction.

This article, "Sex and Addiction" may help him see why he's feeling so angry, and how masturbation is contributing to his fury and frustration. http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_and_addiction

From experience, I think your instincts are right: you can't truly nourish/satisfy this man by being a "receptacle" for what is basically an act of masturbation. If it were that easy, porn and sex addicts would be the happiest people on the planet. They aren't. They behave like any other addict, very restless, irritable, selfish and demanding - and for a perfectly valid scientific reason as explained in the previous link. It's important to keep in mind that the demanding person you see is NOT who your husband is. This is just his "addict" self. Unfortunately, if you keep giving him a fix, or if he keeps masturbating on his own, he will remain an addict.

It is also true that this practice requires two willing partners. Unless both are willing to try it, the uninterested partner will feel he/she is doing something against his/her will, and will just be resentful.

I think I would try the following: Tell him that you will try his schedule and method of having sex for three weeks, if he will try your way for three weeks first. The advantage to this is that he would only have to make a commitment for a fixed period, and would not be "signing on for life." It should give you both a chance to see the benefits and drawbacks of each way of making love. It should also get him settled again. (The Exchanges are a program of activities for couples to do while easing past the worst of the sexual withdrawal discomfort. They make up the second half of my book, but you could design your own, too.)

I have to warn you that experience shows that when someone is very addicted to sex, it takes them longer than the period of the Exchanges to completely master themselves. (Three months, perhaps.) So you will probably see some back and forth before he makes a permanent change.

The one thing you can do to aid him in making a healthy choice is to nurture him as much as possible with non-erotic attention: loving massages and other gestures of affection. Imagine what YOU would find comforting if you were going through a drug or alcohol withdrawal, and minister to him accordingly. This is not an easy task when you have been feeling very abused by his "addict-think" (i.e., neurochemically-induced selfishness). You will have to imagine that your infinitely loving heart has enough to give to this tormented, beautiful man. In the long run, your gift will come back to you. Ask for divine assistance, if necessary. :)

The argument that "men are different from women" is both somewhat true, and largely irrelevant, in my view. First of all, I know women who are just as easily addicted to orgasm as any man. I also know men who, despite very high libidos, have chosen to master their sexual energy and found it to be very satisfying. In this regard, here are some other items he might find interesting:

http://www.yogitimes.com/los_angeles/articles/03_2006/meditate_this.html

Also, these two items (about the benefits of this approach) were written by men (as were many items on my website): http://www.reuniting.info/male_continence_noyes
and
http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_method_lloyd

Please know that I sincerely extend my compassion to you both. It was due to experiences like yours that I have collected the material at my site. There is a HUGE problem between men and women due to this biological separation mechanism. You are not alone. Yet most of us fool ourselves that we would be happy with a different partner, and that that would solve the problem.

The good news is that the problem is squarely in front of the two of you, where you can work on it directly.

Be patient. Be loving. Be generous. Be determined to nurture him in a way that will truly benefit him. He needs loving contact with you. He's right about that. Give him "all you can eat" of safe, loving contact, whenever you can. If he won't let you touch him at first (without orgasmic sex), then send him your loving energy via thought. At the very least that will keep your heart in the right place, which will benefit your peace of mind. Remember that he is not who he's acting like at the moment. He is wearing a disguise. Do your best to continue to love the man beneath that disguise.

Write any time. You can reach me more directly via the "contact" page, if I miss your next post.

Good luck and warm regards,
Marnia

My reply to Marnia

Dear Marnia,
I only have 20 mins to write... still felt that I need to start now. I guess you have read my message to the janitor and will find what I write here added information. The first time I spoke to Marcello about Karezza I read one of the scientific articles about the physical changes in the body and the addictive cycles I forget the name now and won't go looking for it...at the same time there was a reference to the coolidge effect so I read that too. After our last experience I'm thinking to bring up those ideas again or maybe even ask him to read it at an appropriate time. I think my husband is more against the idea of something written to be followed than the actual facts. I'd like to know more about exercises, nurturing loving exchanges to give me some ideas but would need to do this kind of spontaneously as he's against anything planned. I am happy to say that my heart seems more open these days due to dance or going to the beach or reading about karreza again so it's easier for me to remain loving than say two months ago when I really was thinking we had to end our relationship. Maybe it was even due to my call for divine assistence as you described. Maybe I have found a way to renew our relationship and I'm pretty determined to give it my best shot. I don't believe in finding the perfect partner and would much prefer to work hard to make this one work. I felt a little desperate at the begining because he was so anti the idea...but I think with some experiences he may come to see things differently. I need to be patient as I'm a little excited to give this a go and well need to wait for him to want that also...I liked the fixed period idea. We kind of discussed that but didn't come to an agreement. I will have another go at suggesting this. I still haven't asked him about his porn. I'll admit there's some addiction there but I really beleive that has come due to my not giving in to his needs and it being so easily accessable. I think whe he was an adoloscent it was active but then he joined a spiritual group and practiced celebacy. As I mentioned there was no orgasm or even penetration during the first two years of our marriage. There were also very little loving embrasses --so as to not fall into passion. I believe porn and masturbation are his substitution for me and he's not really happy about it either....oh must go now will continue when I can...

jsut wanted to mention that the messages from you and the janitor I've recieved have been very supportive understanding and encouraging thanks

Rosa.

So glad you're feeling stronger

I have great compassion for your husband. It is very uncomfortable when an addiction is going full force, and your subconscious brain is telling you that only ONE thing will make you happy (whether it's a beer, an orgasm, or whatever). It's easy to see how this reward center of the brain pushed us to do the things that ensured our survival as a species. It's very demanding, and very single-minded when aroused!

I'm encouraged by your husband's spiritual background. Although his current experience proves that sexual suppression doesn't work very well, his past devotion to sexual control shows that he is a very shiny man behind his challenge. It's my theory that life force energy is both our spiritual fuel and our sexual energy. So the more spiritual work you do, the more powerfully you de-rail when you choose to indulge. (And the more progress you can make spiritually when you get back ON the rails!)

Yes, I'm saying that "angels" are often more susceptible to things like porn addiction than spiritually sleepier people. Another reason for this is that they're more susceptible to guilt feelings, which actually make the addiction worse. See http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/sex_and_ego_a_course_in_miracles#Guilt

Your situation has inspired us, by the way. We're going to put a more extensive collection of support about porn addiction on the Resources page. For now, have you seen this page? http://www.reuniting.info/resources/questions_and_answers#Porn

Your sweetheart probably realizes that he's addicted, but here's a light-hearted, yet convincing, look at the question of porn addiction: http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/pornoff.html It's very important not to use guilt to motivate someone to stop using porn. The more guilt, the more intense the cycle of highs and lows, at a brain chemical level.

Now, as for the "spontaneous" idea, I have one possible suggestion, just in case it helps. In general, I think people don't make a lot of progress with this practice without thoroughly understanding what's going on in their brains, and why they might want to try a "middle path" (of affectionate intercourse, withOUT orgasm). So basic education is very important. (Here's a good overview that my husband prepared: http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain.) However, on the resources page, you will find a link called, "Exchange of the Day," and it leads here (http://www.reuniting.info/resources/exchange_of_the_day). Each time you refresh this page, a new exercise comes up at random. If you and your husband want to try a non-erotic exchange of energy spontaneously, just skip through a few of them until you find an activity that you can fit to your circumstances. It's sometimes easier to use this feature than trying to think up your own activities. The items come up at random.

Above all Audrey, remember that it is your loving, female energy (safely supplied) that he actually hungers for...regardless of what the reward center in his brain is screaming about. So be generous with your affection, your smiles, your pampering, your touch. It can be hard to do this when your mate THINKS he's seeing you as a single body part. Smile But just know that what can really nourish him is your loving touch/intention.

It makes it easier for men to value us correctly if we value ourselves for the right things. Be a "safe harbor" for your husband. A place that is nurturing, and where there is no struggle. Above all, be receptive and magnetic...but not "enticing" or deliberately arousing. This balance may come naturally to you, based on your history. In any case, it gets easier, as he feels nurtured and calmer...and you grow into your true female power...as a spring of clear, sparkling water.

All the best, and let us know how you get along. Change takes time and involves ups and downs, so don't get discouraged. This upset could lead to a vast improvement for you both. The sexless solution may have been unnecessarily stagnant. His rebellion may be leading you to a more creative solution that nurtures both of you better, enhances your spiritual growth, and puts the sparkle back in your lives.

Husband

I apologize for being so harsh....it's my own anger
towards your husband. I wish you all the best during
this difficult time.

Sunlee

Your apology is accepted

Dear Sunlee,
sorry I didn't have time to write sooner. I wanted you to know that I can understand your response and am not offended. I guess your going through a difficult time with your own relationship. I pray that you can find inner peace during this time.
Audrey

Hi Sunlee - Karezza

No, I don't mention "Karezza" in my book, for the reason that I didn't know about it at the time I wrote my book. However, if you look in the right-hand margin (lower right, beneath Google search) on this website, you will see links to three books that are Karezza-related. The oldest one indirectly inspired Karezza. There are also various articles about it here:

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/stockham_karezza
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/lloyd_karezza_method
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/yin_power_female_orgasm_lloyd_karezza

Enjoy!
M