My husband likes something I can't share. Will karezza help us to get back together?

Submitted by Angela on
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Hello I could really do with some help. My husband and i are around 60. Three and a half years ago my husband finally found out how to use the internet. His searches helped him to realise a latent sexual preference he had had feelings about, but that wasn't explicit. He likes to be lifted. His fantasy would be to be over my shoulder with me giving him oral sex. That wasn't going to happen for two reasons - I just wouldn't, and although we're a similar size and fit and healthy I couldn't.
Because of this feeling he found that feeling my leg muscles was a turn on, just because of the possibility they could lift him. He also wants to sit on my knee. I'm happy with this just for a cuddle, but can't deal with it when he gets aroused.
I found all this very upsetting. He just has to touch my leg for me to get upset and angry. We have had an active and satisfying sex life, and been faithful to each other for 35 years, and when we have had a difficult time, sex has been a comfort for us both. We both still love and fancy each other.
But now I felt exactly as if there was someone else he loved more.
It's plain that this stems from when he was very small - 2 or 3. He was in hospital. He remembers being held over a nurses shoulder and being sexually aroused. He won't accept this explanation, and just says it feels like part of him. It feels so lovely to him, he can't understand why it upsets me. I feel tremendous compassion for him, but I can't accept it into our intimate relationship.
He says he feels as if he's giving me a disease when he has his feelings because it upsets me, and now says he can't make love to me at all, and will give it up. I know we both long to be close, and it's very difficult. He gets cross and upset, and although he says he doesn't, I know he feels it's my fault, because I won't just accept it.
I came across your website, and printed off Alice Stockham's book. i also bought Cupid's Poisoned Arrow. They struck a chord. I eventually persuaded my husband to read Cupid's Poisoned Arrow. I think he read about half of it. He said it said some people can't do it, and didn't see how it would help our problem. I feel we would be focussing on each other here and now, in intimacy, without chasing anything else - him his lifting 'feeling', me an orgasm, which although sometimes lovely, can feel almost like an obligation.
It's the worst thing that's ever happened to either of us. I hope this wasn't too long. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Angela

While I can hardly be the person to decide what others like/dislike, I recommend that you take a little more time evaluating why YOU don't want to indulge your husband. Are you serious that you are repulsed when he touches your leg? I don't think too many people would say, "whoa! stop touching my leg Honey, that's just too kinky."

Most of our sexual tastes and fantasies are rooted in our younger years. Why do you think "naughty nurse" fantasies are so popular with men?

To answer your question specifically, though, Karezza is a great way to make love and will undoubtedly help you if carried out. I urge you to try it with your husband. However, don't expect him to listen to YOUR request any more seriously than you appear to listen to his.

David

Angela, your husband's brain has changed causing his tastes to

change. That's what escalation of Internet porn use does to a lot of guys. The content of the tastes is all over the place, but the underlying process is the same.

Assuming you could indulge this fantasy, another fantasy will arise. In drug addiction terms he's experiencing tolerance, and needing something new and different in order to get a buzz from his primitive brain and its reward circuit.

We (your hosts on this site) have created a new website to organize and the porn materials and create new resources. Her's some reading to understand what's happened to your husband.

Dr. Norman Doidge on how the brain changes to new tastes due over stimulation - your husband is creating a new sexual brain map. Good place to start.
http://yourbrainonporn.com/doidge-on-pornography-and-neuroplasticity

A few articles on porn altering tastes of users-
http://yourbrainonporn.com/losing-at-porn-roulette
http://yourbrainonporn.com/straight-men-gay-porn-and-other-brain-map-mys...

As us questions section - on escalation, with similar stories:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/why-did-my-porn-use-escalate

The overview article on what goes on in the brain, from the front page:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/doing-what-you-evolved-to-do

Good luck, gary

Quote:We have had an active

[quote]We have had an active and satisfying sex life, and been faithful to each other for 35 years[/quote]

Hello! I would like to clarify what you mean by this. When you say you have had an active sex life is that in the distant past? Or is that continuing on into the present?

[quote]But now I felt exactly as if there was someone else he loved more.[/quote]

How does that feeling arise? When I read this, I imagine that you feel hurt and betrayed. Is that your reaction?

I'm not a sex therapist, nor do I have experience with Karezza (yet). But I think there may be more here than the sexual incompatibility. What's happening in your mind he's becoming aroused? ...by *YOU* for that matter! :) If you can separate out your emotional reaction and process that first, then you might have more success in persuading him to Karezza.

Right now, it comes off as, "Ugh. Your weird sexual desires make me feel like you don't really love me." I'm not sure if that's the case?

J

We have had an active sex

We have had an active sex life till very recently. It started going wrong after he found this desire to be lifted. It is a real shock to be with someone for 32 years, and then something like this comes up. Yes I feel hurt, and betrayed I suppose - sounds a bit silly maybe. As all we've done was never what he wanted really. It's like something from the past suddenly came to between us. That's why I was attracted by the here and nowness of karezza.

that makes sense

[quote]Yes I feel hurt, and betrayed I suppose - sounds a bit silly maybe. [/quote]

It's not silly at all. The reason why I asked is because I'm hoping that with your understanding of what we've learned about porn and overstimulation that you can understand at really deep level that his new "interest" isn't a reflection on you. Not at all. And coming from that understanding might be a more effective context for navigating this conflict with your husband.

Remember that his porn-soaked brain thinks that "lifting" is the only way for him to find gratification. Approaching him and educating him about his overstimulated brain is probably really tough to do while simultaneously feeling betrayed and taking it personally. If that's how it comes across, you may inadvertantly start an unconscious cycle of "well you did this and it hurt me, so i'm going to do this and hurt you." etc., etc. That might be what's going on with you having him read CPA and him resisting. There's a conflict dynamic at play going on that transcends that information and solution at hand, yes?

It sounds like you have a great relationship, though. I hope you can find a way to show him that he can have all the happy sex he can handle :)

JM

I'm sorry jman and davidphd, but didn't you two read that

everything was pretty good until Internet porn entered the picture? Both of you are trying to dig deeper into a problem that has an obvious cause.
If it walks like a duck..............
This is a classic example of over stimulation leading to tolerance, and thus escalation.
It's like you get a new prescription from the doctor, and soon you start having all these weird symptoms that you never had before.
What has changed? New drug.
What do you do? Stop taking the prescription I would hope.

the prescription is obvious

I agree that stopping the new drug is the solution. Where it gets iffy is getting him to comply :( As an addict, I know that this is dangerous stuff, and I wanted to dig into what her reaction to his "newfound interest" was so that she could be present to the emotional hurt while not letting it start a vicious cycle of "well, if you didn't do this, then I wouldn't ask you to do that". Etc.

But yes, you're spot on. You don't go 35 years and have a piggy-back fetish just show up out of nowhere :)

Gary,

Do you honestly feel that this husband never saw porn of any kind until three years ago? (or whatever it was) Do you really feel that everything was fine until "one day he discovered porn"? C'mon, please give us guys more credit.

You may be right that this can be a case of overstimulation. But did you consider it may also be a case of where the man finally said to himself, "after all these years, I am going to start asking for something I happen to like."? I will bet a gazillion dollars that this man has had this fantasy for decades. Porn had nothing to do with it.

Let's consider that if instead of the man's request to be held over a shoulder, he simply wanted oral sex. (assuming he never got it from his wife) Would that be dismissed as "oh, he is just watching too much porn".

While Karezza is a great way to make love and to avoid many of the pitfalls of "too much", be careful that you don't consider ALL other alternatives to sexual practices as "just too much porn".

Sorry for the rant, but I feel this woman has found a convenient boogeyman and doesn't want to address whatever is bothering HER.

David

I think we might be watching

I think we might be watching the unfolding of a woman driving a man away and possibly to porn. This begins in early childhood. I saw a male and female child dash for dibs on a particular seat on the bus the other day. The girl misinterpreted the boys desire to play and insisted on her way causing him to withdraw. Then she relished it and got into a bit of teasing. Ultimately his withdrawal made her sad but I didn't sense that she understood what happened. This is sort of analogous. This guy might genuinely have some fantasy and while not acting it out is one thing, making him feel rejected for being himself can and will drive him to porn even though this initially might have had nothing to do with porn at all.

Creative partners would find a way to please each other. I can understand that one might not be physically strong enough. However, I don't think this guy would be opposed to other related ideas because even guys as humans know there is a limit physically. I've never come across porn where the woman lifts the guy. It could be that this guy wants to play a more female role by being lifted. Even if that is true, and even if that comes from porn, it still seems to me that the woman plays some role in this.

the duck is quacking

and it's Internet porn.
Sure he saw porn before. I've seen porn before. But we are talking about the ever novel, endlessly escalating world of internet porn. I don't need to rehash what is in our articles, or what every porn addict on this site has described over the years, or what I said to her. In essence I completely disagree with your assessment.
To accuse her of finding a boogeyman is to deny the addictiveness of internet porn.
His request "to be lifted" would likely cause her physical harm. Is that a loving request from a husband of 35 years?
Once she has fullfiled the Olympic weight-lifting manuever of love, what's next? Anal sex on a backyard swing?
Trust me there will be another request, or escalation of his porn use. Why? Beacuse that's what a dysregulated reward circuit with a numbed pleasure response does.

But Gary

You are basing your argument on the "inappropriateness" of the request. That is a normative judgement neither you nor I can make. By your definition, anything other than "ten toes up, ten toes down" is a horrible escalation that requires "rebooting".

No, Angela is making this judgement, and

I think she knows her husband better than you do. She has clearly stated this is out of character and associated with Internet porn use.
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I don't care much for your spin tactics. I did not use the word inappropriate.
But let me use it now. It is inappropriate to ask your 60-year old wife perform anything that might cause her pain and physical trauma.
You may find it appropriate to re-read what I said, and what Angela said, because you are projecting a load of your own stuff on to this discussion. Your highly active imagination is a disservice to Angela's inquiry.

Ok.

I wasn't suggesting that she DO carry him. I am suggesting that there is something other than porn use going on here.

Gary, I did re-read the passages and suggest that we all have bias in our comments. Including you.

You sound like the pot calling the kettle black.

But this is your forum, so I will stop here.....but you do give me an inspiration for a Karezza slogan.

David

Norman Doidge

There are some striking examples in Doidge's book about children who had to endure severe pain and painful medical treatments developing 'fetishes' as a coping system.

It's in chapter four. Specifically, these can be latent until the hc porn triggers the pathway again, and combined with the intense stimulation and dopamine, becomes strongly wired.

If our loved ones had a stroke, and their personality changed, we'd get them treatment. This isn't so different to my mind, and will require time, effort and loving patience to recover from.

Quizure

Well it's interesting

Well it's interesting watching you slug it out! however some of what has been said has been helpful and sensitive, and food for thought. It has been good for me to share it too, and not be thought (by most of you) stupid or inadequate.
Yes I know my husband! I have read somewhere on this site since since posting that chaps look at pornography till something presses their particular buttons. That has clearly happened here. His initial requests were in an excited state and far fetched. To be fair to my husband, whom I love and respect, he has calmed down somewhat and returned to the computer rarely after the initial discovery, and I know when because he tells me, as he doesn't like the way it makes him feel. I can trust him on this as honesty and trustworthiness are his best qualities. That's why he had to tell me in the first place. I wouldn't call it an actual addiction, but I can see where that would go.
Thank you all for your thoughts, and maybe we can close the subject now.

I remember

I remember times in my younger years when I would be with a gentleman and we would be watching porn together (as foreplay, if you will) and his attitude would change right then and there! Suddenly a very sweet man would become forceful and aggressive and somewhat dull to the fact that I was even in the room.

If watching just one poorly-made movie can do that to someone, I can't even imagine how it would affect a brain that spent many hours watching it. (well, I can because of the stories I have read here--so glad for the understanding I have gleaned from this website and hugs to everyone trying to get out from under its spell)

Good luck to you and your hubby, Angela~

rediscovered

I think I might have

I think I might have experienced this attitude/perception flip once without any porn as a reaction to a female's incessant sexual grabbiness. It was intense and almost instantaneous like flipping a switch...light to dark and immediate. I really pulled away and withdrew. My perceptions more or less permanently changed and in some ways hers did too in reaction to my changes. I realize that this was different situation than porn alone, but I use this as a reminder of where I don't want to go with a future partner. Intense withdrawing can be a relationship killer and if the other partner isn't aware of what is going on in the moment, the damage is done and very hard to undo. If anything, it can be exacerbated by a partner.

Yeah

I know I once did this to a partner, and it didn't set well with him. Must have been in a hangover phase. Smile

No one wants to feel like they're being shoved over a cliff of erotic whatever just because their partner is looking for more intense stimulation. May look good in a porn vid, but in real life it seems neither sex is really that delighted by it, except maybe in the initial passion gadfly-bite scenario.